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On April 09 2013 15:46 AirbladeOrange wrote:
I'm generally agreeing with LMaster here. Why do you have a 120 mile week as a goal? It seems like it is more likely to do harm rather than good. If I remember right you are an experienced runner who was pretty good in the past. If you keep increasing mileage every single week without taking down weeks let alone even weeks it seems like you're going to run yourself to injury. Some people can handle it and some cannot and I'm not sure if you've done this sort of thing before in the past. Even if you have and you handled it fine if you took a long time off there is no guarantee you can do it again safely. Taking a day or two a week to cross train rather than run is safe and still provides worthwhile endurance gains.
And yes, if your main race or races are in September you definitely don't want to be doing peak mileage in August. You want some sensible progression where you transition from doing base to short, speed intervals to longer, enduranceish intervals to tempo to tapering like Daniels recommends just as an example.
Let us know what you think.
Thanks for the feedback. IIRC, you've got some pretty serious 5 and 10k PRs, right?
The 120 goal seems like a good gross mileage figure to shoot for to run the fastest 10k I can this year. I know elite level runners often do 120 for three weeks out of four. Obviously I'm not them, but I'm a reasonably experienced runner, I've clocked close to that mileage in the past, and I want to make a solid effort at running my best possible time this season.
I'm evidently not doing a good job of communicating my approach here. I'm not going to bump up 10 per cent every week until I get to 120, but I am going to gradually increase my mileage until August. This will mean repeat/down weeks to give my body time to adapt.
And per LMaster, I'm not going to do the whole thing at 7 min/mile pace.
R.e. when to do peak mileage, I don't really know how to taper for a shorter race. For marathon training, I've done a three or 2.5 week taper, concentrating on reducing mileage while maintaining intensity, culminating in a week of about 1/2 mileage (compared with peak) and two days of rest before the race. What changes when the race is 5-10k?
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On April 10 2013 02:15 Bonham wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2013 15:46 AirbladeOrange wrote:
I'm generally agreeing with LMaster here. Why do you have a 120 mile week as a goal? It seems like it is more likely to do harm rather than good. If I remember right you are an experienced runner who was pretty good in the past. If you keep increasing mileage every single week without taking down weeks let alone even weeks it seems like you're going to run yourself to injury. Some people can handle it and some cannot and I'm not sure if you've done this sort of thing before in the past. Even if you have and you handled it fine if you took a long time off there is no guarantee you can do it again safely. Taking a day or two a week to cross train rather than run is safe and still provides worthwhile endurance gains.
And yes, if your main race or races are in September you definitely don't want to be doing peak mileage in August. You want some sensible progression where you transition from doing base to short, speed intervals to longer, enduranceish intervals to tempo to tapering like Daniels recommends just as an example.
Let us know what you think. Thanks for the feedback. IIRC, you've got some pretty serious 5 and 10k PRs, right? The 120 goal seems like a good gross mileage figure to shoot for to run the fastest 10k I can this year. I know elite level runners often do 120 for three weeks out of four. Obviously I'm not them, but I'm a reasonably experienced runner, I've clocked close to that mileage in the past, and I want to make a solid effort at running my best possible time this season. I'm evidently not doing a good job of communicating my approach here. I'm not going to bump up 10 per cent every week until I get to 120, but I am going to gradually increase my mileage until August. This will mean repeat/down weeks to give my body time to adapt. And per LMaster, I'm not going to do the whole thing at 7 min/mile pace. R.e. when to do peak mileage, I don't really know how to taper for a shorter race. For marathon training, I've done a three or 2.5 week taper, concentrating on reducing mileage while maintaining intensity, culminating in a week of about 1/2 mileage (compared with peak) and two days of rest before the race. What changes when the race is 5-10k?
I don't know exactly where you pulled the 120 figure from. Some elites (Lagat) peak in the 60s-70s, others peak near 100, some do 140, and some 200+. There is a massive spectrum across the board as to how people train, even at the most elite levels. Moreover, you are not an elite. This matters because your easy 10 miler likely takes 70-80 minutes, where for someone like Lagat or Rupp, it takes no more than 55-60 minutes. You doing 120 miles a week is really equivalent to a true elite running 150+ miles per week.
Now, all that said, there is nothing inherently good or bad about running 120mpw. Or 80 mpw. Or 200 mpw. That's but one part of becoming a good runner.
when to do peak mileage, I don't really know how to taper for a shorter race. For marathon training, I've done a three or 2.5 week taper, concentrating on reducing mileage while maintaining intensity, culminating in a week of about 1/2 mileage
We aren't talking about a taper here though. We are talking about periodization. Nobody runs peak mileage anytime near their race. Take a typical collegiate with goal races in early October. He might be running 100+ miles per week during the height of summer, as he gets to school though in August and starts getting to workouts that usually takes a drop down to where the mileage is no longer a stimulus in and of itself, but a maintenance. The workouts are the real focus, and recovering from them the priority.
It might look something like:
Spring Season: 85
May: 95
June: 100
July:100-110
Aug: 90
Sep: 90
Oct: Race
The idea with periodization is that the increase in mileage is often a stimulus in and of itself, but when it's time for serious training, if the general volume was still a stimulus you would have an exceptionally tough time recovering from workouts.
Remember, it's not the mileage that makes you faster. You can get a little faster from good mileage as it will make you a little stronger, at least when you push it to new thresholds where the mileage is a stimulus, but the MAIN purpose of mileage is to strengthen the body and prepare it for workouts. A runner doing 20 mpw is almost certainly not ready to do a 10 mile tempo on Tuesday, and then 6xMile @ 10k pace on Thursday, with a 1:45 progressive long run on Sunday.
It's important here, and I can't tell if you recognize this yet, to understand that just running alot of miles is NOT going to result in good race times. Running at 7:xx or 8:xx paces don't do much to prepare your body for the stress, intensity, and rhythm of running 5:xx.
That's why you have workouts. To develop the energy systems, and critically, the efficiency, comfort, and relaxation needed to race well at higher speed. To quote Alberto Salazar, probably the best coach around today, talking about Cam Levins who (know for doing some crazy mileage weeks of 180+):
"I don't believe the high mileage he has been doing is sustainable long term," Salazar said. "I think the quality stuff we do is much better."
You aren't going to run fast if you don't...run fast. Hitting peak mileage in August means you won't start getting in workouts until Septemeber. Which means you won't race well. You'll be really strong but have no turnover and feel as if you can't run all that hard.
I want to make a solid effort at running my best possible time this season.
Then, assuming this means goal races in September, increase your mileage gradually until early July-mid July, then go back to maybe 5-10 more mpw than what was comfortable before the increase and start doing serious workouts.
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On April 10 2013 02:58 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2013 02:15 Bonham wrote:On April 09 2013 15:46 AirbladeOrange wrote:
I'm generally agreeing with LMaster here. Why do you have a 120 mile week as a goal? It seems like it is more likely to do harm rather than good. If I remember right you are an experienced runner who was pretty good in the past. If you keep increasing mileage every single week without taking down weeks let alone even weeks it seems like you're going to run yourself to injury. Some people can handle it and some cannot and I'm not sure if you've done this sort of thing before in the past. Even if you have and you handled it fine if you took a long time off there is no guarantee you can do it again safely. Taking a day or two a week to cross train rather than run is safe and still provides worthwhile endurance gains.
And yes, if your main race or races are in September you definitely don't want to be doing peak mileage in August. You want some sensible progression where you transition from doing base to short, speed intervals to longer, enduranceish intervals to tempo to tapering like Daniels recommends just as an example.
Let us know what you think. Thanks for the feedback. IIRC, you've got some pretty serious 5 and 10k PRs, right? The 120 goal seems like a good gross mileage figure to shoot for to run the fastest 10k I can this year. I know elite level runners often do 120 for three weeks out of four. Obviously I'm not them, but I'm a reasonably experienced runner, I've clocked close to that mileage in the past, and I want to make a solid effort at running my best possible time this season. I'm evidently not doing a good job of communicating my approach here. I'm not going to bump up 10 per cent every week until I get to 120, but I am going to gradually increase my mileage until August. This will mean repeat/down weeks to give my body time to adapt. And per LMaster, I'm not going to do the whole thing at 7 min/mile pace. R.e. when to do peak mileage, I don't really know how to taper for a shorter race. For marathon training, I've done a three or 2.5 week taper, concentrating on reducing mileage while maintaining intensity, culminating in a week of about 1/2 mileage (compared with peak) and two days of rest before the race. What changes when the race is 5-10k? I don't know exactly where you pulled the 120 figure from. Some elites (Lagat) peak in the 60s-70s, others peak near 100, some do 140, and some 200+. There is a massive spectrum across the board as to how people train, even at the most elite levels. Moreover, you are not an elite. This matters because your easy 10 miler likely takes 70-80 minutes, where for someone like Lagat or Rupp, it takes no more than 55-60 minutes. You doing 120 miles a week is really equivalent to a true elite running 150+ miles per week. Now, all that said, there is nothing inherently good or bad about running 120mpw. Or 80 mpw. Or 200 mpw. That's but one part of becoming a good runner. Show nested quote +when to do peak mileage, I don't really know how to taper for a shorter race. For marathon training, I've done a three or 2.5 week taper, concentrating on reducing mileage while maintaining intensity, culminating in a week of about 1/2 mileage We aren't talking about a taper here though. We are talking about periodization. Nobody runs peak mileage anytime near their race. Take a typical collegiate with goal races in early October. He might be running 100+ miles per week during the height of summer, as he gets to school though in August and starts getting to workouts that usually takes a drop down to where the mileage is no longer a stimulus in and of itself, but a maintenance. The workouts are the real focus, and recovering from them the priority. It might look something like: Spring Season: 85 May: 95 June: 100 July:100-110 Aug: 90 Sep: 90 Oct: Race The idea with periodization is that the increase in mileage is often a stimulus in and of itself, but when it's time for serious training, if the general volume was still a stimulus you would have an exceptionally tough time recovering from workouts. Remember, it's not the mileage that makes you faster. You can get a little faster from good mileage as it will make you a little stronger, at least when you push it to new thresholds where the mileage is a stimulus, but the MAIN purpose of mileage is to strengthen the body and prepare it for workouts. A runner doing 20 mpw is almost certainly not ready to do a 10 mile tempo on Tuesday, and then 6xMile @ 10k pace on Thursday, with a 1:45 progressive long run on Sunday. It's important here, and I can't tell if you recognize this yet, to understand that just running alot of miles is NOT going to result in good race times. Running at 7:xx or 8:xx paces don't do much to prepare your body for the stress, intensity, and rhythm of running 5:xx. That's why you have workouts. To develop the energy systems, and critically, the efficiency, comfort, and relaxation needed to race well at higher speed. To quote Alberto Salazar, probably the best coach around today, talking about Cam Levins who (know for doing some crazy mileage weeks of 180+): Show nested quote +"I don't believe the high mileage he has been doing is sustainable long term," Salazar said. "I think the quality stuff we do is much better." You aren't going to run fast if you don't...run fast. Hitting peak mileage in August means you won't start getting in workouts until Septemeber. Which means you won't race well. You'll be really strong but have no turnover and feel as if you can't run all that hard. Show nested quote + I want to make a solid effort at running my best possible time this season. Then, assuming this means goal races in September, increase your mileage gradually until early July-mid July, then go back to maybe 5-10 more mpw than what was comfortable before the increase and start doing serious workouts.
Yes yes yes. Periodization is the term I was looking for. There needs to be a logical purpose to every training phase, and even every workout or run you do. I'm most used to using Jack Daniels' running formula that's why I used the example I did earlier.
And I'm glad to hear that the buildup will be gradual and not insane.
And for tapering it really depends on how much you're putting into that one race. If it's your main race and you're going to take time off afterward it doesn't matter much at all what you the two weeks or so leading up to it as long as you are getting at least a little stimulus and not doing anything difficult or time consuming and just doing what's comfortable.
For example if you're racing a major 5k this is something like what I used to do:
3 and 4 weeks out: Gradually decrease mileage, take any needed rest days, focus on appropriate workouts like tempo or pacing stuff, do a little bit of speed stuff that is easy to recover from
2 weeks out: do 2/3rds of your previous week's mileage and long run, your only workout is a pretty easy tempo one, take 1 day off, cross train for another, take any more needed days off
1 week out: 1/2 your previous week's mileage and long run (I did longs on Sunday), easy Monday, rest Tuesday, easy Wednesday, rest Thursday, very short easy run with a few feel good easy strides on Friday, race Saturday
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Ran my second 5k since 2003  Wasn't the fastest course but placed second with a 18:34 (LINK) after 5 months of training The starting line: PIC Finishing kick: PIC Podium: (3rd place guy was mia) PIC
Have my first half marathon since 2001 coming up on the 28th.. Its suppose to be a pretty brutal course but we will see what happens COURSE (La Jolla half marahton)
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On April 13 2013 08:47 [cF]TridenT wrote:Ran my second 5k since 2003 Wasn't the fastest course but placed second with a 18:34 ( LINK) after 5 months of training The starting line: PIC Finishing kick: PIC Podium: (3rd place guy was mia) PICHave my first half marathon since 2001 coming up on the 28th.. Its suppose to be a pretty brutal course but we will see what happens COURSE (La Jolla half marahton)
Nice run. How fast did you used to be back in early 2000s? 18:30 is pretty damn good for a first race back!
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damn nice! everyone here is such a pro runner. I must keep training.
doing a nice 12 mile training run tomorrow morning with a group of people who are all running in marine corps marathon in October, hopefully will start learning more gosu running strats from them. can't wait to meet more people who are great runners. outside of this thread and a couple other forums I visit online I don't really know enough people who run a ton. all my friends seem to obsessed with lifting and don't seem to understand my obsession with cardio...
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On April 13 2013 13:16 LuckyFool wrote:
damn nice! everyone here is such a pro runner. I must keep training.
doing a nice 12 mile training run tomorrow morning with a group of people who are all running in marine corps marathon in October, hopefully will start learning more gosu running strats from them. can't wait to meet more people who are great runners. outside of this thread and a couple other forums I visit online I don't really know enough people who run a ton. all my friends seem to obsessed with lifting and don't seem to understand my obsession with cardio...
People are out there you just have to find them. I've seen ads on Craig's List for training partners so that's an option. Also it doesn't hurt if you are ever at a track or somewhere that might be comfortable to approach someone and see if they're interested in running with you sometime. You can learn a lot from running with experienced runners as well as just learn about whoever it is you're running with. Meeting runners often results in meeting cool and crazy (the good kind) people.
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On April 13 2013 13:16 LuckyFool wrote:
damn nice! everyone here is such a pro runner. I must keep training.
doing a nice 12 mile training run tomorrow morning with a group of people who are all running in marine corps marathon in October, hopefully will start learning more gosu running strats from them. can't wait to meet more people who are great runners. outside of this thread and a couple other forums I visit online I don't really know enough people who run a ton. all my friends seem to obsessed with lifting and don't seem to understand my obsession with cardio...
Looking for running clubs in your local vicinity also helps.
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On April 13 2013 09:48 L_Master wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2013 08:47 [cF]TridenT wrote:Ran my second 5k since 2003 Wasn't the fastest course but placed second with a 18:34 ( LINK) after 5 months of training The starting line: PIC Finishing kick: PIC Podium: (3rd place guy was mia) PICHave my first half marathon since 2001 coming up on the 28th.. Its suppose to be a pretty brutal course but we will see what happens COURSE (La Jolla half marahton) Nice run. How fast did you used to be back in early 2000s? 18:30 is pretty damn good for a first race back!
Exactly 3 minutes faster when i was 18 15:34, this was the last race I ran before I stopped running completely. If I would have run a five 5k between my Junior and senior year it would have been around 15:20 which is where I was in the summer of 2002. The senior that graduated my Junior year was right around the same time so we pushed each other. After he graduated the next fastest guy was low 18's for 5k and I ran with him all my senior year so I didn't get any faster just stayed in shape.
With 9½ years of not running(30 miles a year tops) I ran my first flat 5k in the end of November 2012 and ran a 19:57. A runner who finished that 5k 2 seconds ahead(19:55) of me ran this race i just completed in 21:22. I improved over 1 minute and 20 seconds faster on a harder course. I had to take a month off from mid feb to mid march due to a minor arch injury so the progress I've made in this 5 month period is very encouraging and look forward to a lot of growth in the near future!
Here is the course of the Half Marathon I have coming up: La Jolla Half Marathon Course PDF
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Thanks everyone for congratulating me on qualifying for boston! pretty stoked.
However, I think I developed an injury on my right leg's lower calf muscles. or the part inbetween my achilles and my calfs from pushing so hard on the race course. Now it stings everytime I try to run on it, even for 100m. I know some of you guys had injuries too, it must be really frustrating. All I'm doing now is hitting high bike mileage, and swim yard'age. Would love to get back on the road again, really makes me appreciate running now haha.
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Finished my first ever race this morning, 10miles, had some knee problems late so finished at hour 30. Coulda been better. Had some miscommunication with my running partner, after the oilers game last night we went out for beers thinking the race started at noon, got home at 3am half drunk, race at 9:30, so that was fun, never ran off a hangover before.
Doing my first half marathon in 1 months time, I was doing 40km a week leading up to this one, I think ill have to expand that a bit now however.
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Was anyone here at the boston? If so hope everyone is okay :-/
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Holy smokes, I hope YPang and everyone else at Boston is OK. That gif making the rounds on twitter right now shows one of the explosions happening at around the time my dad usually finishes his marathons. He's not at Boston, but I still kind of feel like puking.
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Yeah, hope that no one here was at the marathon in Boston when that happens. Really sad and tragic event.
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I really hope they catch whoever did this. The culprit may pull the same thing at another event and that is a terrifying prospect. What an absolutely despicable act. It also hits rather close to home as someone who recently got into running and just ran a HM couple days ago.
Wishing for quick recoveries of those who were injured.
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Regarding my HM over the weekend, I didn't do as well as I would have liked to although I did beat my first run by about 90 seconds by coming in at 1:45. This was an easier run though in terms of inclines.
I was on a pretty good training schedule during January/February, and then I gave myself an overuse foot injury, which kept me out for about 3 weeks. I was doing bikes in place, but it's not quite the same. Around the time I finally recovered and started running again, my right knee started to hurt and feel stiff, and unlike the foot injury, I couldn't even use the bikes because it bothered me just as much as running did.
The knee almost fully recovered after ~2 weeks, but then it was the race weekend already. I had run maybe 10 miles total in the past month or so.
I picked a 1:40 pacer and stuck with him until around mile 7. The pacer hardly slowed down through drink stops and I eventually started to fall behind after the 3rd of 4th stop. The pacer finally pulling out of my sight was a mental blow and I started to stop and walk every 1/2 to 3/4 miles. It was embarrassing since I did not walk at all during my first HM. I think I probably stopped to walk about 4-5 times between mile 7 and mile 10. The 1:45 pacer (who started in a 2 minutes later wave than I did) eventually caught up to me and I really gave it my all not to fall behind. I got in at 1:45 with this pacer, and I guess that means the pacer finished at 1:43. I was pretty dizzy and staggering for the few minutes following the finish.
Overall, it was still fun racing as always, and I learned my lesson not to drastically up my mileage in a short period and give myself injuries. I'm wondering if it's related to my shoes as well (Nike Free), which are very light and comfortable, but doesn't really give me any cushion.
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As soon as I heard about Boston I thought about YPang. Hope things are as good as they can be for the circumstances.
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YPang wasn't in Boston today? I thought he just qualified recently which means he can run starting in next years event I thought.
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EPT
