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On July 20 2020 01:54 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 20 2020 01:47 Fango wrote:
Traps games were good because seeing protoss win against zerg is rare nowadays and no one wants to see the same ZvZ final for the 500th time, they weren't good games in terms of actual games. Can you actually get genuinely good PvZ games? I’d love to see some. I can see some games I appreciate from an execution sense, occasionally a real clown fiesta but an actual high-level back and forth game? I’d contend that LotV is doing pretty well in that PvZ is the only actual bad matchup now when it comes to high level tournament play at least. I'd argue Pvt is getting worse too currently as it feels so snowbally.
The majority of games in PvT/TvP have been shit games that are ended by some sort of timing snowballing out of control for over 2 years at this point. Good games are the exception to a rule.
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On July 20 2020 01:57 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:54 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:50 Ej_ wrote:On July 20 2020 01:49 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:48 Morbidius wrote:On July 20 2020 01:44 Waxangel wrote:On July 20 2020 01:43 Elentos wrote:On July 20 2020 01:41 Morbidius wrote:
Lets see what Trap is fighting against in the finals:
1. He is playing his worst matchup.
2. He is playing an imbalanced matchup.
3. He playing as the race that gets affected more by the high ping.
4. He's against the best(?) Zerg in the world.
5. He is a natural kong. I mean 5 doesn't matter, not only is this an online tournament, it's at best a special event, which is the type many Kongs have won. Korean fan-logic is very narrative driven, so the outcome of thsi tournament will decide whether it's "just tier 2" or if it counts toward Traps' kong count as a major What matters to Korean fan logic is that after Serral wins it becomes another irrelevant event. Who cares about Trap? I'll have you know I was saying HSCs weren't a premier event back when Taeja was winning all of them as well But that's because your forte is against all players out of GSL, which included Taeja who was the #1 public enemy of KeSPA-wankers in HotS. This may be true, but I also said the same about HSC when Zest was winning all of them and he was one of KeSPA's golden boys  There are a lot of HSC tho. The 20th and the one who ended with Parting vs Flash have a strong signification for me at least. (and Taeja' streak was still amazing regardless of the importance of the tourney)
The Parting Flash finals is still one of the best series in sc2 history hands down.
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On July 20 2020 01:57 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:54 Akio wrote:On July 20 2020 01:52 Elentos wrote:On July 20 2020 01:46 geokilla wrote:On July 20 2020 01:44 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:38 geokilla wrote:
Best part is, Aligulac had it near at 50/50. But this was more like 5/95 for Serral Seriously? Now I feel like an idiot for not placing bets if some of the odds are that far off I placed bets. I had Reynor ML at 1.305, Cure + 2.5 at 1.227 and Over 3.5 maps for Cure vs Serral at 1.311. My bankroll is now gone and I'm back to where I started. Rode it from $150 to $800, and now back to $150 lol. Why people keep betting on Starcraft after the damage it's done to the scene multiple times I'll never get. Agreed. I don't really get this thinking. Illegalizing gambling doesn't do anything—in fact, the match-fixing in StarCraft all occurred due to people trying to profit off ILLEGAL betting sites in Korea. If someone is betting on a legal site, they're not affecting the likelihood of match-fixing in any way.
I think it's the same line of thinking on how Canada legalized marijuana. My mom hates it because she thinks people are gonna start smoking it up like crazy and get high all the time. It's been over a year now and in reality, things are more or less the same as before legalization.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 20 2020 01:54 darklycid wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:52 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 20 2020 01:47 Fango wrote:
Traps games were good because seeing protoss win against zerg is rare nowadays and no one wants to see the same ZvZ final for the 500th time, they weren't good games in terms of actual games. Can you actually get genuinely good PvZ games? I’d love to see some. I can see some games I appreciate from an execution sense, occasionally a real clown fiesta but an actual high-level back and forth game? I’d contend that LotV is doing pretty well in that PvZ is the only actual bad matchup now when it comes to high level tournament play at least. I'd argue Pvt is getting worse too currently as it feels so snowbally.
It does feel that way quite often, but you do get a fair few of interesting macro games with lots of back and forth action and comebacks do happen.
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On July 20 2020 01:46 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:44 JJH777 wrote:On July 20 2020 01:39 TaKeTV wrote:I feel bad for Starcraft fans and Dreamhack as organizer as well as any caster. Both series were atrocious. I don't "mind" players winning that are potentially not my favorite but at least the games should be good. Thats so sad  Traps games were amazing. I dont want to sound pissy but I really don't think they were good games. It might be that you enjoyed them, maybe you are a Trap fan but in simple Starcraft terms, that wasn't good Starcraft. Its fine to enjoy some trashmovies for example or also to dislike a movie that in terms of movies is good (acting, cinematography etc) but that really doesnt elevate this series to anything. Not Traps fault though.
In games 1 and 2, Trap pulled out some creative builds and that made it interesting. Other than that they were uninteresting.
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Northern Ireland26225 Posts
On July 20 2020 01:56 Nakajin wrote:
You know I'm still somewhat working on a history of Starcraft and I'm at the point in 2012 when I probably should be watching a bo12 of Violet vs Leenock and ten thousand Parting soul Train, I'll take Serral dunking on Trap for now.
Oh that’s intriguing, refreshing yourself or prepping something for public consumption?
I’ve long felt BW or SC2 would make for a great in-depth documentary series, so many great stories there
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Interview into 15 min break... would much rather skip the interview lol
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On July 20 2020 02:01 Moonerz wrote:
Interview into 15 min break... would much rather skip the interview lol
I'd rather skip the 15 minute break after the 45 minute nothing before Cure vs Serral. And the 30 minute nothing that was Cure's performance.
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On July 20 2020 01:57 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:54 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:50 Ej_ wrote:On July 20 2020 01:49 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:48 Morbidius wrote:On July 20 2020 01:44 Waxangel wrote:On July 20 2020 01:43 Elentos wrote:On July 20 2020 01:41 Morbidius wrote:
Lets see what Trap is fighting against in the finals:
1. He is playing his worst matchup.
2. He is playing an imbalanced matchup.
3. He playing as the race that gets affected more by the high ping.
4. He's against the best(?) Zerg in the world.
5. He is a natural kong. I mean 5 doesn't matter, not only is this an online tournament, it's at best a special event, which is the type many Kongs have won. Korean fan-logic is very narrative driven, so the outcome of thsi tournament will decide whether it's "just tier 2" or if it counts toward Traps' kong count as a major What matters to Korean fan logic is that after Serral wins it becomes another irrelevant event. Who cares about Trap? I'll have you know I was saying HSCs weren't a premier event back when Taeja was winning all of them as well But that's because your forte is against all players out of GSL, which included Taeja who was the #1 public enemy of KeSPA-wankers in HotS. This may be true, but I also said the same about HSC when Zest was winning all of them and he was one of KeSPA's golden boys There are a lot of HSC tho. The 20th and the one who ended with Parting vs Flash have a strong signification for me at least. (and Taeja' streak was still amazing regardless of the importance of the tourney)
Don't get me wrong I love the events, it's probably the best entertainment sc2 has going for it.
I just don't feel like they offer much in terms of reputation or legacy to the players. Starleagues/proleague come first, then bllizzcon/katowice, then the smaller yet still stacked weekenders, then events like HSCs. At least for me. Thats why I never spoke too highly of player like Taeja compared to most of the foreign community.
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tfw you go to a family event and we get a non ZvZ final, maybe I need to stop following DreamHack events up until the semifinal:D
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United States33513 Posts
On July 20 2020 02:02 Andi_Goldberger wrote:
tfw you go to a family event and we get a non ZvZ final, maybe I need to stop following DreamHack events :D
your real family is in this LR thread 
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On July 20 2020 02:02 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:57 stilt wrote:On July 20 2020 01:54 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:50 Ej_ wrote:On July 20 2020 01:49 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:48 Morbidius wrote:On July 20 2020 01:44 Waxangel wrote:On July 20 2020 01:43 Elentos wrote:On July 20 2020 01:41 Morbidius wrote:
Lets see what Trap is fighting against in the finals:
1. He is playing his worst matchup.
2. He is playing an imbalanced matchup.
3. He playing as the race that gets affected more by the high ping.
4. He's against the best(?) Zerg in the world.
5. He is a natural kong. I mean 5 doesn't matter, not only is this an online tournament, it's at best a special event, which is the type many Kongs have won. Korean fan-logic is very narrative driven, so the outcome of thsi tournament will decide whether it's "just tier 2" or if it counts toward Traps' kong count as a major What matters to Korean fan logic is that after Serral wins it becomes another irrelevant event. Who cares about Trap? I'll have you know I was saying HSCs weren't a premier event back when Taeja was winning all of them as well But that's because your forte is against all players out of GSL, which included Taeja who was the #1 public enemy of KeSPA-wankers in HotS. This may be true, but I also said the same about HSC when Zest was winning all of them and he was one of KeSPA's golden boys There are a lot of HSC tho. The 20th and the one who ended with Parting vs Flash have a strong signification for me at least. (and Taeja' streak was still amazing regardless of the importance of the tourney) Don't get me wrong I love the events, it's probably the best entertainment sc2 has going for it. I just don't feel like they offer much in terms of reputation or legacy to the players. Starleagues/proleague come first, then bllizzcon/katowice, then the smaller yet still stacked weekenders, then events like HSCs. At least for me. Thats why I never spoke too highly of player like Taeja compared to most of the foreign community.
rating smaller weekenders above HSC... check the lineup, check the format.
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On July 20 2020 02:02 Andi_Goldberger wrote:
tfw you go to a family event and we get a non ZvZ final, maybe I need to stop following DreamHack events up until the semifinal:D
i missed serral - ty and maru - cure due to family event yesterday
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On July 20 2020 01:52 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:46 geokilla wrote:On July 20 2020 01:44 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:38 geokilla wrote:
Best part is, Aligulac had it near at 50/50. But this was more like 5/95 for Serral Seriously? Now I feel like an idiot for not placing bets if some of the odds are that far off I placed bets. I had Reynor ML at 1.305, Cure + 2.5 at 1.227 and Over 3.5 maps for Cure vs Serral at 1.311. My bankroll is now gone and I'm back to where I started. Rode it from $150 to $800, and now back to $150 lol. Why people keep betting on Starcraft after the damage it's done to the scene multiple times I'll never get.
On the other hand betting is a huge part of the income that esports generates. People really underestimate how much attention even random esports matches can generate on betting sites.
It's a grim outlook but could potentially be something that sustains esports in the future. Also I don't think the issues caused by matchfixing were down to reputable gambling sites, that would be undergound/illegal ones. Though I don't know enough to really speak on the subject.
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On July 20 2020 02:03 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 02:02 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:57 stilt wrote:On July 20 2020 01:54 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:50 Ej_ wrote:On July 20 2020 01:49 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:48 Morbidius wrote:On July 20 2020 01:44 Waxangel wrote:On July 20 2020 01:43 Elentos wrote:On July 20 2020 01:41 Morbidius wrote:
Lets see what Trap is fighting against in the finals:
1. He is playing his worst matchup.
2. He is playing an imbalanced matchup.
3. He playing as the race that gets affected more by the high ping.
4. He's against the best(?) Zerg in the world.
5. He is a natural kong. I mean 5 doesn't matter, not only is this an online tournament, it's at best a special event, which is the type many Kongs have won. Korean fan-logic is very narrative driven, so the outcome of thsi tournament will decide whether it's "just tier 2" or if it counts toward Traps' kong count as a major What matters to Korean fan logic is that after Serral wins it becomes another irrelevant event. Who cares about Trap? I'll have you know I was saying HSCs weren't a premier event back when Taeja was winning all of them as well But that's because your forte is against all players out of GSL, which included Taeja who was the #1 public enemy of KeSPA-wankers in HotS. This may be true, but I also said the same about HSC when Zest was winning all of them and he was one of KeSPA's golden boys There are a lot of HSC tho. The 20th and the one who ended with Parting vs Flash have a strong signification for me at least. (and Taeja' streak was still amazing regardless of the importance of the tourney) Don't get me wrong I love the events, it's probably the best entertainment sc2 has going for it. I just don't feel like they offer much in terms of reputation or legacy to the players. Starleagues/proleague come first, then bllizzcon/katowice, then the smaller yet still stacked weekenders, then events like HSCs. At least for me. Thats why I never spoke too highly of player like Taeja compared to most of the foreign community. rating smaller weekenders above HSC... check the lineup, check the format. I think by smaller weekenders Fango meant Dreamhacks and non-Katowice IEMs.
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On July 20 2020 01:57 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:54 Akio wrote:On July 20 2020 01:52 Elentos wrote:On July 20 2020 01:46 geokilla wrote:On July 20 2020 01:44 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:38 geokilla wrote:
Best part is, Aligulac had it near at 50/50. But this was more like 5/95 for Serral Seriously? Now I feel like an idiot for not placing bets if some of the odds are that far off I placed bets. I had Reynor ML at 1.305, Cure + 2.5 at 1.227 and Over 3.5 maps for Cure vs Serral at 1.311. My bankroll is now gone and I'm back to where I started. Rode it from $150 to $800, and now back to $150 lol. Why people keep betting on Starcraft after the damage it's done to the scene multiple times I'll never get. Agreed. I don't really get this thinking. Illegalizing gambling doesn't do anything—in fact, the match-fixing in StarCraft all occurred due to people trying to profit off ILLEGAL betting sites in Korea. If someone is betting on a legal site, they're not affecting the likelihood of match-fixing in any way.
I don't think it's a question of whether it's legal or not. If someone wants to bet on a legal site, they can go ahead in my opinion but I personally would feel a little bad doing so just because it can still be attributed as being connected to what caused the motives to match-fix in the first place, whether the platform be legal or not.
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On July 20 2020 02:02 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:57 stilt wrote:On July 20 2020 01:54 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:50 Ej_ wrote:On July 20 2020 01:49 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:48 Morbidius wrote:On July 20 2020 01:44 Waxangel wrote:On July 20 2020 01:43 Elentos wrote:On July 20 2020 01:41 Morbidius wrote:
Lets see what Trap is fighting against in the finals:
1. He is playing his worst matchup.
2. He is playing an imbalanced matchup.
3. He playing as the race that gets affected more by the high ping.
4. He's against the best(?) Zerg in the world.
5. He is a natural kong. I mean 5 doesn't matter, not only is this an online tournament, it's at best a special event, which is the type many Kongs have won. Korean fan-logic is very narrative driven, so the outcome of thsi tournament will decide whether it's "just tier 2" or if it counts toward Traps' kong count as a major What matters to Korean fan logic is that after Serral wins it becomes another irrelevant event. Who cares about Trap? I'll have you know I was saying HSCs weren't a premier event back when Taeja was winning all of them as well But that's because your forte is against all players out of GSL, which included Taeja who was the #1 public enemy of KeSPA-wankers in HotS. This may be true, but I also said the same about HSC when Zest was winning all of them and he was one of KeSPA's golden boys There are a lot of HSC tho. The 20th and the one who ended with Parting vs Flash have a strong signification for me at least. (and Taeja' streak was still amazing regardless of the importance of the tourney) Don't get me wrong I love the events, it's probably the best entertainment sc2 has going for it. I just don't feel like they offer much in terms of reputation or legacy to the players. Starleagues/proleague come first, then bllizzcon/katowice, then the smaller yet still stacked weekenders, then events like HSCs. At least for me. Thats why I never spoke too highly of player like Taeja compared to most of the foreign community.
Its always been fair to think this way in my opinion. The idea that back in the 2014-15 era that you could compare weekend tournaments to the Kespa players starleagues/gsl victories was and still is kind of a joke.
Korean elitists were only elitists about the quality of starcraft. Not really for any unjustifiable reason that others were annoyed by
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On July 20 2020 02:03 TaKeTV wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 02:02 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:57 stilt wrote:On July 20 2020 01:54 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:50 Ej_ wrote:On July 20 2020 01:49 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:48 Morbidius wrote:On July 20 2020 01:44 Waxangel wrote:On July 20 2020 01:43 Elentos wrote:On July 20 2020 01:41 Morbidius wrote:
Lets see what Trap is fighting against in the finals:
1. He is playing his worst matchup.
2. He is playing an imbalanced matchup.
3. He playing as the race that gets affected more by the high ping.
4. He's against the best(?) Zerg in the world.
5. He is a natural kong. I mean 5 doesn't matter, not only is this an online tournament, it's at best a special event, which is the type many Kongs have won. Korean fan-logic is very narrative driven, so the outcome of thsi tournament will decide whether it's "just tier 2" or if it counts toward Traps' kong count as a major What matters to Korean fan logic is that after Serral wins it becomes another irrelevant event. Who cares about Trap? I'll have you know I was saying HSCs weren't a premier event back when Taeja was winning all of them as well But that's because your forte is against all players out of GSL, which included Taeja who was the #1 public enemy of KeSPA-wankers in HotS. This may be true, but I also said the same about HSC when Zest was winning all of them and he was one of KeSPA's golden boys There are a lot of HSC tho. The 20th and the one who ended with Parting vs Flash have a strong signification for me at least. (and Taeja' streak was still amazing regardless of the importance of the tourney) Don't get me wrong I love the events, it's probably the best entertainment sc2 has going for it. I just don't feel like they offer much in terms of reputation or legacy to the players. Starleagues/proleague come first, then bllizzcon/katowice, then the smaller yet still stacked weekenders, then events like HSCs. At least for me. Thats why I never spoke too highly of player like Taeja compared to most of the foreign community. rating smaller weekenders above HSC... check the lineup, check the format.
By small weekenders I mean like IEM or Super Tournaments/kespa cups etc. Not many events can compete with HSC in terms of format sure (I actually really wish more of them adopted the larger groups and double elim brackets), but in terms of lineup I'm really not sure HSC has the upper hand there.
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Canada8989 Posts
On July 20 2020 02:01 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 01:56 Nakajin wrote:
You know I'm still somewhat working on a history of Starcraft and I'm at the point in 2012 when I probably should be watching a bo12 of Violet vs Leenock and ten thousand Parting soul Train, I'll take Serral dunking on Trap for now. Oh that’s intriguing, refreshing yourself or prepping something for public consumption? I’ve long felt BW or SC2 would make for a great in-depth documentary series, so many great stories there
It's a year by year review for everyone, I published the 2010 one like 6 months ago as a blog, the 2011 one at least should see the light of day relatively soon, after that we'll see going forward lol.
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On July 20 2020 02:04 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2020 02:03 TaKeTV wrote:On July 20 2020 02:02 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:57 stilt wrote:On July 20 2020 01:54 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:50 Ej_ wrote:On July 20 2020 01:49 Fango wrote:On July 20 2020 01:48 Morbidius wrote:On July 20 2020 01:44 Waxangel wrote:On July 20 2020 01:43 Elentos wrote:
[quote]
I mean 5 doesn't matter, not only is this an online tournament, it's at best a special event, which is the type many Kongs have won. Korean fan-logic is very narrative driven, so the outcome of thsi tournament will decide whether it's "just tier 2" or if it counts toward Traps' kong count as a major What matters to Korean fan logic is that after Serral wins it becomes another irrelevant event. Who cares about Trap? I'll have you know I was saying HSCs weren't a premier event back when Taeja was winning all of them as well But that's because your forte is against all players out of GSL, which included Taeja who was the #1 public enemy of KeSPA-wankers in HotS. This may be true, but I also said the same about HSC when Zest was winning all of them and he was one of KeSPA's golden boys There are a lot of HSC tho. The 20th and the one who ended with Parting vs Flash have a strong signification for me at least. (and Taeja' streak was still amazing regardless of the importance of the tourney) Don't get me wrong I love the events, it's probably the best entertainment sc2 has going for it. I just don't feel like they offer much in terms of reputation or legacy to the players. Starleagues/proleague come first, then bllizzcon/katowice, then the smaller yet still stacked weekenders, then events like HSCs. At least for me. Thats why I never spoke too highly of player like Taeja compared to most of the foreign community. rating smaller weekenders above HSC... check the lineup, check the format. I think by smaller weekenders Fango meant Dreamhacks and non-Katowice IEMs.
Even Dreamhacks are a lot worse in terms of lineup mostly since they do not include top koreans (excluding the 2020 online edition)
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