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Italy3963 Posts
On July 10 2019 19:12 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote:
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it. That's a point against Serral for not participating in a stacked, historically top-tier competition, not against Maru. And it's Code S; it's not exactly an irrelevant tournament. Is that what a lot of these arguments boil down to? Tournament X becomes irrelevant in assessing how good a player is, just because the player I prefer didn't attend, and we should only look at the tournaments my player played at? Show nested quote +Also, do you really believe top 35 is comprised almost entirely of koreans, Chairo? Are you referring to when he responded that the remaining 35 of the top 50 would therefore be Koreans if he humored the assertion that 15 of the top 50 would be foreigners? Because that's just a reasonable dichotomy. And that's different than your question here, that the top 35 (not top 50) is comprised almost entirely of Koreans, as he didn't claim that all of the foreigners were necessarily #36-50 in the top 50, while the Koreans held all the top spots. Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 18:58 Harris1st wrote:In a "who was best in 2018" discussion, it is impossible to not mention Serral  Agreed, although keep in mind that the original assertion wasn't that Serral was merely part of the conversation for #1 player in 2018, but that he was definitely ("nearly unquestionably") the #1 player. That's obviously false. I think focusing on the final few players in this GoaT competition is what's important for this thread though... which means there's really no need to mention Serral.
It's senseless to say that Maru did better in Code S. This doesn't mean Code S is not relevant, but it can't be used to compare Serral and Maru, since Serral did not play there; and it cannot be used as a point agains Serral, who is not supposed to be playing in Code S(he theorically might, but it's not like he's korean).
Serral was most likely the best player in 2018, you value tournaments differently so I see how you can disagree but you shouldn't be surprised when people refers to him as such.
Charoisaur didn't say that directly, but he was heavily implying the mere number of korean progamers left was determining the amount of foreigners in the current top 50; this, for sure, is obviously false.
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On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote:
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it.
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it.
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Italy3963 Posts
On July 10 2019 20:51 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote:
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it. I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it.
I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually.
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On July 10 2019 01:30 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 01:15 Kitai wrote:On July 10 2019 00:20 deacon.frost wrote:
What's up?! IM NESTEA!!!!
Nestea! You're a psychopath, Nestea! Nestea had just erazed quadrillion thors with 5 quadrillion banelings.
(also he created the Zerg but that was discussed before) Artosis' reverence and enthusiasm for NesTea was one of my favorite memories from early GSL. At least it was somewhat justified. His unending faith in Clide, however...
It's funny because I remember Clide as maybe the first player who started to make SC2 play look like it could become as refined as BW. It felt like he was ahead of the pack in some way that never fully translated into results. I don't even know how to fully encapsulate it except to say that as I remember it, his play started to really "look like a pro" before anyone else, but it wasn't consistent. Cliiiiiiiide?!
I miss those days too. Quality entertainment.
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On July 10 2019 21:07 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 20:51 Charoisaur wrote:On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote:
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it. I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it. I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually.
His argument is consistent with what you're saying though; apparently you can't state that Serral is a better player than anyone who hasn't played in the exact same tournament as Serral, which is clearly absurd.
But I digress; let's focus on the GoaT candidates
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On July 10 2019 21:07 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 20:51 Charoisaur wrote:On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote:
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it. I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it. I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually.
I can't play WCS, because of my school obligations, but I would be very glad to go to Korea and stomp Code S to prove how fucking easy that region is.
PM me if you are interested in donating to the cause
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Italy3963 Posts
On July 10 2019 23:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 21:07 Xain0n wrote:On July 10 2019 20:51 Charoisaur wrote:On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote:
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it. I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it. I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually. His argument is consistent with what you're saying though; apparently you can't state that Serral is a better player than anyone who hasn't played in the exact same tournament as Serral, which is clearly absurd. But I digress; let's focus on the GoaT candidates
No, it's not. Serral and Maru both played in multiple tournaments throughout the year so that we can compare them directly, and we can also try to assess how relevant is Code S compared to WCS; the absurd part is saying that one of them did better than the other in a competition in which the latter didn't play(Maru being better than Serral in Code S, as well as Serral doing better than Maru in Circuit's stops).
On a side note, I am sure Ej will soon find a team willing to pay for his trip in Korea, and I'm definitely excited to see Charoisaur restoring Terran dominance at Montreal.
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On July 11 2019 00:14 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2019 23:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2019 21:07 Xain0n wrote:On July 10 2019 20:51 Charoisaur wrote:On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote:
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it. I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it. I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually. His argument is consistent with what you're saying though; apparently you can't state that Serral is a better player than anyone who hasn't played in the exact same tournament as Serral, which is clearly absurd. But I digress; let's focus on the GoaT candidates No, it's not. Serral and Maru both played in multiple tournaments throughout the year so that we can compare them directly, and we can also try to assess how relevant is Code S compared to WCS; the absurd part is saying that one of them did better than the other in a competition in which the latter didn't play(Maru being better than Serral in Code S, as well as Serral doing better than Maru in Circuit's stops). On a side note, I am sure Ej will soon find a team willing to pay for his trip in Korea, and I'm definitely excited to see Charoisaur restoring Terran dominance at Montreal.
You don't seem to understand what "compare directly means", we could compare them directly if they actually played each other. They did not.
Using your logic we can directly compare Marus GSL runs and final wins vs Stats, Zest and TY with Serrals in WCS vs Showtime, Mana, Has Reynor.
Besides you and Dave4 there is clear consensus which achivments were most impressive, its not even worth discussion even if you and Dave keep on trying.
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Italy3963 Posts
On July 11 2019 00:31 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 00:14 Xain0n wrote:On July 10 2019 23:40 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On July 10 2019 21:07 Xain0n wrote:On July 10 2019 20:51 Charoisaur wrote:On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote:
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it. I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it. I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually. His argument is consistent with what you're saying though; apparently you can't state that Serral is a better player than anyone who hasn't played in the exact same tournament as Serral, which is clearly absurd. But I digress; let's focus on the GoaT candidates No, it's not. Serral and Maru both played in multiple tournaments throughout the year so that we can compare them directly, and we can also try to assess how relevant is Code S compared to WCS; the absurd part is saying that one of them did better than the other in a competition in which the latter didn't play(Maru being better than Serral in Code S, as well as Serral doing better than Maru in Circuit's stops). On a side note, I am sure Ej will soon find a team willing to pay for his trip in Korea, and I'm definitely excited to see Charoisaur restoring Terran dominance at Montreal. You don't seem to understand what "compare directly means", we could compare them directly if they actually played each other. They did not. Using your logic we can directly compare Marus GSL runs and final wins vs Stats, Zest and TY with Serrals in WCS vs Showtime, Mana, Has Reynor. Besides you and Dave4 there is clear consensus which achivments were most impressive, its not even worth discussion even if you and Dave keep on trying.
Either I explained myself horrendously or you didn't understand anything; in both cases a clarification is needed.
We can directly compare Serral's and Maru's results in the tournaments they both played in last year, which were Katowice, WESG, GSL vs the World and Blizzcon.
Yes, the consensus is clear and it was mirrored by TL's award for best player of 2018; I don't really have any desire of discussing it any further.
On topic, NesTea was more influential and dominant while soO was relevant for a way longer and managed to become a worthy heir of Yellow; I think I wouldn't have placed any them in the top8.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
Godwin’s changed his law and it’s now applicable to not just Hitler but Serral’s merits
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Canada8991 Posts
I don't think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments.
SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close.
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On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote:
I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments.
SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close.
But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On July 11 2019 03:26 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote:
I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments.
SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close. But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year.
He absolutely does, but Nestea was ahead of the curve hugely strategically in his best periods. soO is a great player too but standing atop the shoulders of giants.
For whatever reason the BW scene seems to be able to recognise the greatness of their early stars more than the likes of this competition has tended to thus far.
Like Boxer is still an undisputed hall of famer, whereas here there seems a real trend to favouring post Kespa switch players who did well in that era:
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Canada8991 Posts
On July 11 2019 03:26 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote:
I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments.
SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close. But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year.
Oups the phrase should read:
"I don't think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO."
Important distinction haha
On July 11 2019 03:35 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 03:26 Yonnua wrote:On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote:
I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments.
SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close. But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year. He absolutely does, but Nestea was ahead of the curve hugely strategically in his best periods. soO is a great player too but standing atop the shoulders of giants. For whatever reason the BW scene seems to be able to recognise the greatness of their early stars more than the likes of this competition has tended to thus far. Like Boxer is still an undisputed hall of famer, whereas here there seems a real trend to favouring post Kespa switch players who did well in that era:
A big part of it is that the evolution of SC2 was much quicker than BW it took a good number of years for the meta to settle into something resembling the pro scene. In SC2 it was much quicker, a lot of the work was already done because of BW and WC3 (ex using the keyboard may be a good idea) and because of the internet and the pro scene everyone evolved around the same speed.
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Inno > soO (easy) , Mvp > Maru (really close one), then Inno > Mvp ? I'd vote for Mvp, but I have a huge bias in his favor.
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On July 11 2019 03:35 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2019 03:26 Yonnua wrote:On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote:
I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments.
SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close. But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year. He absolutely does, but Nestea was ahead of the curve hugely strategically in his best periods. soO is a great player too but standing atop the shoulders of giants. For whatever reason the BW scene seems to be able to recognise the greatness of their early stars more than the likes of this competition has tended to thus far. Like Boxer is still an undisputed hall of famer, whereas here there seems a real trend to favouring post Kespa switch players who did well in that era:
That's because the top player from that era wasn't Nestea, it was Mvp. For BW, who after Boxer do fans consider an all time GOAT from that era? Yellow? Garimto? Reach?
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Canada8991 Posts
For our 3rd semi-finalist
Theses polls are closed
Poll: Who is the greatest player?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Maru
☐ Stats
Bonus poll for placement
Poll: Who is the greatest player?You must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ TaeJa
☐ Nestea
Polls are open Sunday july 14th around 11 pm EST
Theses polls are closed
Articles are gonna come tomorrow morning, a bit to winded to finish them tonight.
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Is this even a contest? Maru is a 4 time consecutive GSL champion. And Stats is well.... good I guess?
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EPT
