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Team Liquid Greatest of All Time constest Final 8
Welcome everyone, it's been a long time coming but after 3 month and 4 round of vote we are left with only 8 man in contention for the title of the greatest in the game.
For those who have missed the rest of the contest, have no idea what I'm talking about or just want and recap on what happen, you can go check out the main thread or the liquipedia page:
Team-liquid-greatest-of-all-time-contest
User:Nakajin/Greatest of all time poll
This time around we are gonna do one poll at the time, polls will open/close thursday night and Sunday night EST.
Also, results and screen cap will be added to the first thread, for those who wishes to see the results after the fact.
With that said it's time to crown the Greatest Starcraft 2 player of all time!
Poll: Who is the greatest playerYou must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ INnovation
☐ soO
Bonus poll for placement Poll: Who is the greatest playerYou must be logged in to vote in this poll. ☐ Stats
☐ Zest
The poll are open until
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SEMI-FINAL 1
Innovation vs soO
As we are almost at the final point of this tournament, I wanted to bring out my own look at the two semi-finals matchup and why I think one is greater than the others. Keep in mind that while I’m obviously right, some delusional individual may be clinging to their inadequate view of the world. If you are one of those people feel free to manifest yourself, we will notice your cry for help.
Early game
 soO: soO early game defense is one of the best in the game as he also has a lot of early rushes and cheeses, he liked to pull out particularly against protoss. His early defense against zerg in particular is one of the best of all time.
 INnoVation: Aside from the 2-3 rax or marauder rush once in a while, Inno isn't a big fan of committing in the early game. He worked on this hole in his play a lot and became more adept at early-mid game pushes, but it still hurt him in tvt where early game decisive skirmish is sometime impossible to avoid.
Verdict: Avantage soO
Mid-game
soO: soO mid-game is defined by a very active and aggressive style but with a lot of roaches and variably muta, hydra or bane, while staying on a relatively low drone count.
He tend to try to pounce on a winning position and close the game in one or two attack and is always decisive in his actions. His great creep spread, mechanics and micro shines the most in the mid-game. The very high pressure he put on his opponent tend to pin or punish any counter attack.
INnoVation: INno mid game tends to be the direct the direct continuation of his early game (shocking I know) with most of his build coming together in the mid-game in a way that become the meta game for everyone else to follow.
His multiprong and multitask isn't all over the place, but he knows to press where it hurt, preferring an excellent two or three way attack than trying to manage 5 different drop at a time.
Verdict: Tie
Late game
soO: Have you seen his late game!?
INnoVation: As one of the game most patience player INnovation has always felt very comfortable, at least at time when the meta allowed for it. He's done it the most with mech, particularly in tvz, but he's also very good at the bio-nuke tvz or skyterran tvt and can plan a decent late game tvp although he tends to try to avoid it.
Verdict: Advantage to INnoVation
Vs Z matchup
soO: soO got the clear title of the best zvz player in the word in 2014, as he went on a lengthy zerg win streak in proleague as well as achieved an almost flawless year in individual tournament. His after mention overwhelming macro mecanics and roach micro and positioning made him a master of standard zvz. With strong early game defense, including a famous game vs Solar where he shut down a 10 pool with only workers, he was always trying to get to the roach vs roach games. As Hots developed and Lotv came around and zvz started to go away from the roach game, soO sometime had trouble keeping up, Rogue for exemple with his tech heavy zvz gave him a lot of problems. soO is still the king the roach, as his victory over Serral at Katowice demonstrate, but he sometime lacks a bit of adaptability.
INnoVation: INno is a two-faced nightmare in tvz, playing both bio and mech to perfection. The great innovator of the parade pushes his tvz in 2012 and 2013 are legendary, although a closer look at the number tells us it wasn’t the absolute domination we could remember, losing to a couple of the strongest zerg. His non stopping parade pushing strategy was kind of a brute force way to achieved victory, just shove as many units as you can in the other player face until you can break him. In 2015, INnovation started to show his other monstrous head as his turtle mech composition made zerg everywhere scream imbalanced, this time he played the other role, the one more than happy to sit back as zerg throw everything they had at him until they killed themselves and outside of meltdown against Life at Blizzcon he seemed almost untouchable in the matchup.
In Lotv INno continued to switch between bio and mech played, mixing it in series depending on what he tought would be most useful in the situation, even sparkling it with some bio-tank and all-ins attack. As such he stayed the model tvz player, playing pretty much all the styles to perfection.
Verdict: Advantage to INnoVation
Vs P matchup
soO: Even tho soO lost most of his final to protoss, it’s his dominance in the match up that truly made his career. Like in his other match up soO has always been a big fan of the roaches play in zvp, but there he is also an adept of the mutalisk and seemed to be able to switch in and out of composition more easily on top of having a lot of deadly all ins in his bag. The usual soO zvp is geared toward killing his opponent in the mid-game, usually after some kind of early pressure, that on top of probably the strongest early game defense in the game made him a deadly zvp player, altought the silver surfer tends to have some problem playing the ultimate late game.
Innovation: Already a very meta dependant player, Innovation tvp is his most volatile match up, where he can find a way to play it in his comford zone, he’s the best terran at it, but he’s easily thrown off balance in situation that are not geared to his advantage. Typically he has been strong in time were terran had the opportunity to mount powerfull attack and end the game in one or two move, for exemple pulling svc or making tanks-raven pushes, but weaker in situation where protoss were able to dictate the pace of a macro game, usually unwilling to adopt the full blown all in madness of a Maru or the chaos of a TaeJa. He's still one of the best tvp player we ever saw but the match up as been a long nemesis of his.
Verdict: Advantage to soO
Vs T matchup
soO: By far soO worst match up, not has much statistically (he has a solid 57% in the matchup), but in his play, soO zvt are ugly affair. While at the start of Hots he was still relatively ok playing the normal LBM game, and excelling at it, he started to have trouble has terran (helped with some patches) became better an better against it, exemplified by his defeat at the hand of TaeJa at Blizzcon. But it was when the swarm host meta that thing started to go bad, soO may have been the only zerg on the planet impossible to sit back on his ass letting endless wave of locust crashes on his opponent, as he was always someone able to miss micro a unit that barely had to be micro to begin with, thing went from bad to worst with the SH change of course. It’s in zvt that soO problem with ultimate late game showed the most, as he was part of some horrible late game vs mech (surprisingly not the worst thing YoDa gave us). In front of this enigmatic weakness, soO zvt relied on roach or hydra-bane all-ins or mid game pushes, which while very strong, can be counter by some savy opponent. On the plus side, soO is the only zerg who could possibily have some decent amount of success with his style of play, frequently toppling top terran with his trademark pushes everyone can see coming a mile away.
INnoVation: While some of Innovation most high profile defeat came at the hand of terran he’s always been a master in the matchup, while the very aggressive opening of tvt isn’t his forte (not having some kind of volatility there is impossible), but it is in the longer macro tvt that he’s the best of the best. His patience is most rewarded in this match up, as he made sure to never take a bad fight, staying forever patience with his tank and rooming around the mad for an opening to snipe a base or jump on an army without creating an opening for his adversary in return. In tvt, like in tvz, he’s able to play both mech and bio and he rarely loses game that go pass the 8-minute mark.
Verdict: Avantage to INnoVation
Korean championships
soO: 1 Kespa Cup, 6 GSL silver, 1 GSL semi, 1 GSL vs The World semi, 1 SSL Challenger, 1 Global challenge semi, 23 Premier Korean league qualification (SSL, OSL, GSL)
The great silver surfer still holds the mark for most GSL final, until his semi-final defeat at the hands of Stats at the start of 2018 he never lost a non-finals playoff matches in the league, going 6 for 6 in playoff runs.
soO consistency in GSL, going to 4 straight finals, then 2 more back to back his only matches with his inability to win the whole tournament, a weakness that followed him around like a shadow. He still has his Korean championship, in the form of a Kespa Cup won at the hands of Dark and for the longest time his only trophy. soO 7 Koreans final is second only to one man (sadly his adversary) tied with Dark, Mvp and Maru. soO also is also one of only 5 zerg to reach a GSL final since WOL and a very consistent player in every tournament, rarely dropping out of tournaments in qualifiers.
INnoVation: 3 GSL, 1 GSL vs The World, 1 IEM, 1 SSL, 1 WCS season finale, 1 GSL silver, 1 VSL, 2 GSL semi, 1 Super Tournament semi, 25 Premier Korean league qualification (SSL, OSL, GSL)
With his 4 Korean league win (5 if you count VSL) and 3 weekender wins as well as a GSL final, he is the most successful player on Korean soil. He won his tournament in many different meta, reaching back to back final only 2 time (GSL 2013 season1-WCS final season 1 / GSLvsTW 2017-GSL 2017 season 3) instead winning a bunch of tournaments at different time. Every time INno doesn’t win a tournament in Korea it is seen as a disappointment for him. He is also one of the few players who can do just as well in weekenders event as in the preparation format and also
Verdict: Advantage INnoVation
Global championships
soO: 1 IEM Katowice, 1 Blizzcon final, 1 IEM final, 1 Suning Invitational, 1 MLG vs Proleague, 1 Dreamhack final, 1 HomeStory Cup final
soO has not leave Korea a lot in his career, although he won on his first try at MLG vs Proleague, his first outing at Blizzcon and various WCS finals were quite disappointing, but things got better quick as he started to collect silver in the west culminating in his Blizzcon final run. He would however go back to a world championship stage (being the 3rd player to reach an Blizzcon and IEM Katowice finals) where he would finally win and get his world title. On 12 foreign attempt soO scored an incredible 6 finals and a championship.
INnoVation: 1 IEM, 1 WESG, 1 Gold Series, 1 HomeStory Cup, 1 HomeStory Cup final, 1 Dreamhack final, 1 Dreamhack semi-final, 1 MSI semi-final
Innovation is one of the most dominant player vs foreigners the same can not be said when he is the foreigner. Innovation inability to win either a Blizzcon an IEM Katowice or even a Dreamhack Winter/Summer. Big global event are the scene of his most (and only) glaring failures on his resume, two disastrous showing at Blizzcon (vs  duckdeok and Life), defeat at the hands of TaeJa at Dreamhack Bucharest and multiple false start at IEM Katowice denied him a foreign trophy worthy of his talent.
Verdict: Advantage soO
Online individual tournaments
soO: 2 master coliseum, 1 Olimoleague yearly, 1 teamliquid map contest tournament, 4 weekly cup montly final wins, 8 weekly cup, 2 Master Coliseum final, 1TLMC tournamemt final, 1 Olimoleague winter final, 9 weekly final
Not a big adept of online cup, soO showed up when in count with his 4 Master coliseum final + his Olimoleague and TLMC wins he won pretty much the biggest online tournaments around, silently beeing one of the earniest online player. soO tend to have very simillar online and offline results, altought his trademark ability to win a series against everyone seems to get a buff.
INnoVation: 1 Destiny one, 1 Olimoleague winter, 4 olimoleague monthly, 1 Blazing series, 2 Dragon invitational, 1 NoDice Gaming invitational, 29 weekly/biweekly cup, 2 monthly finals, 11 weekly finals
A bit of a more frequent faces in the latter stage of online cups he has sucess in a couple of medium size online tournament and a pretty good, but not enormous amount of weekly cup. He dosen't play his best in online tournament (at least not individually) sometime make it look like he's using some of these tournament to try out build idea rather than always try to win.
Verdict: Advantage soO
Team leagues performances
soO: 59-44 Proleague record, 1 Proleague championship, 1 Proleague final, 1 VSL, 1 Nation War
soO constant success in GSL cut his proleague time quite a lot compared to some of his SKT teammates. On a start filled team, going far in GSL pretty much meant getting bench, but when he got to played, he was a very good option. His zvz in particular was very deadly, altought his particular way of playing mixed with some match up weakness made him a opponent possible to snipe for other teams. Outside of Proleague the Silver surfer has had very little teamleague play.
INnoVation: 67-36 Proleague record, 58-15 ATC record, 12-2 GSTL record, 1 Proleague MVP, 1 Proleague final MVP, 2 ATC, 2 VSL, 1 Nation war
Widely considered the best teamleague player in Starcraft 2 Innovation is a perfect choice to send out in any situation. He carried Acer to a victory in GSTL, clutiching a win against SuperNova and also went on to dominate the 2013 proleague season week in and week out. He also was one half of the infamous cheating duo of Acer with MMA dispatching of the league twice in a row. Having Innovation on your team is the best way to win a trophy. His very steady way or playing help in a lot in teamleague scenario where he had to faced a variety of opponent, he is also almost impervious to losing to opponent clearly inferior to him, a talent crucial to any great teamleague player.
Verdict: Advantage INnoVation
Storyline and charisma
soO: The theatrical drama of soO is one of the most well-known storylines in the scene. A story that became all the more complete with his Hollywoodian victory at IEM Katowice. The career long strugle of soO in the final made him one of the most beloved figures in the scene.
INnoVation: While the whole "machine" thing is an interesting story line, it cannot hide the fact that it's mostly a jest on how stiff he his, or at least used to be. We got to discovered his clownish/trollish side in the last few years, but he still isn't a player who captured the heart of the crowds. His career has been one of quiet domination as he never seemed to crown his streak of victory, falling to either win a world championship or multiple consecutive GSL.
Verdict: Advantage soO
Final verdict:
+ Show Spoiler +Well that's on you to tell me!
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Innovation for sure - what's the most prestigious tournament that Taeja has won? Dreamhack Winter - dude hasn't even been to the finals of a premier Korean tournament
Nestea about to get eliminated soon too. Not sure how he made top 10 when his last premier tournament win was summer 2011.
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imo it's Innovation or Maru as GOAT. They have more achievements than Mvp and Life who I think are closest to them.
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On one hand when TaeJa spends all his time watching K-drama he still wins tournaments unlike INno when he spends all his time on League of Legends. On the other there's the results. Voted for INnoVation and it isn't particularly close.
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Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember:
"Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
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Innovation -> Taeja
soO -> Nestea
Maru -> Stats
Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO
Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru
Innovation
MVP
soO
Stats
Taeja
Nestea
Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
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This should be featured on Community News!
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you should probably also post this in the initial thread. i almost missed it.
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On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote:
Innovation -> Taeja
soO -> Nestea
Maru -> Stats
Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO
Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru
Innovation
MVP
soO
Stats
Taeja
Nestea
Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
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On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote:
Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember:
"Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011.
+ he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
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On July 05 2019 19:12 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote:
Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember:
"Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen." Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two. Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
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On July 05 2019 19:41 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 19:12 stilt wrote:On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote:
Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember:
"Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen." Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two. Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far. Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than. I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha
But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
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On July 05 2019 19:52 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 19:41 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 05 2019 19:12 stilt wrote:On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote:
Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember:
"Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen." Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two. Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far. Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than. I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time  Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
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On July 05 2019 19:41 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 19:12 stilt wrote:On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote:
Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember:
"Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen." Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two. Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far. Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than. I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
The top 8 may have been influenced by bracket luck but other than Nestea I'd say all of the players there have a solid case for being the top 8 of all time. The only other one people tend to argue against is Zest despite the fact he is the most successful Protoss of all time, both in terms of number of wins and prestige of those wins.
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On July 05 2019 20:37 Z3nith wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 19:41 Shuffleblade wrote:On July 05 2019 19:12 stilt wrote:On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote:
Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember:
"Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen." Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two. Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far. Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than. I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P The top 8 may have been influenced by bracket luck but other than Nestea I'd say all of the players there have a solid case for being the top 8 of all time. The only other one people tend to argue against is Zest despite the fact he is the most successful Protoss of all time, both in terms of number of wins and prestige of those wins.
Who has a problem with Zest? He is definitely top 8 lol. Its actually Taeja who should not be there, along with Nestea
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On July 05 2019 18:11 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote:
Innovation -> Taeja
soO -> Nestea
Maru -> Stats
Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO
Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru
Innovation
MVP
soO
Stats
Taeja
Nestea
Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time. agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to. Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too.
Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)?
Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown.
soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more?
The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay?
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On July 05 2019 20:50 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 18:11 Anc13nt wrote:On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote:
Innovation -> Taeja
soO -> Nestea
Maru -> Stats
Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO
Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru
Innovation
MVP
soO
Stats
Taeja
Nestea
Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time. agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to. Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair. Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low.
Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
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WCS![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1849.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/663.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/634.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/29.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/1850.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/611.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/977.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/590.jpg)
