EPTTeam Liquid GOAT contest Final 8 - Page 23
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MoosyDoosy
United States4519 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On July 31 2019 21:55 parksonsc wrote: Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays. For some reason this is not a rare statement, to me though it just doesn't make any sense at all. I have never seen anyone that could actually expand on why GSL is "not hard" any more, all we get is blanket statements like yours. Poster state that obviously defeating Classsic or Stats now is easier than it was defeating Rain, MC or Zest (when he was on a roll) back in the day. Its pure crap, defeating the best protoss in the world today is not any easier than it was 1-8 years ago. The only reason defeating the top 10 players in the world would be easier now would be if there was an undisputed best in the world player that was head and shoulders above everyone else. Then obviously winning GSL/blizzcon/any-tournament would not be hard because the player that does it is just simply the best. Does that mean MVP winning all his games was easy, because he was too good? There is absolutely 0 good reason for being able to say GSL is easier now than in the past, at least not if we are talking about RO32 and forward. Being able to climb through qualifier into code A and onwards into code S RO32 was harder back in the day because there was more good players. But having more good players doesn't make it any harder to win back to back GSL championships because top 4 players always gets seeded into RO32 of next season either way. The RO4 players of previous code S never had to win code A matches just to stay in RO32. This whole GSL was harder before is just simply not true. (Besides the fact that Serral isn't in it, just like Taeja/Polt/Hero/MMA were at some points world class players that weren't there either) | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Obviously it's not that ezpz. And don't forget that Maru existed BEFORE the god damn 2018. One of the best Proleague player, 2 starleagues from the Inno domination era when he defeated Inno in the 2nd fastest BO7 ever played by Maru... Managed to get into Code S during the famous blink era and he advanced more than "others" ... etc. I don't get why you have to downplay the achievement, if it's so easy why is Innovation not fighting for the Code S title? Where was he? He had 4 damn seasons to show his greatness... Considering the current RO16, where is he now?  From the last 2 years when winning Code S is easier Innovation had 1 Season better than Maru... out of 6 seasons 1. Yet now it's easier than before, that's why he's ... not winning? | ||
Poopi
France12912 Posts
On August 01 2019 00:00 deacon.frost wrote: Even if you want to say GSL is easier, what is easier is the RO32, RO16 and forward isn't as easy as people claim it to be. If it's so easy why no foreigner was able to get to win it? How many Code S finals has mjr Special done? Scarlett? And remember that Scarlett WON a weekender in Korea while not being able to get at least to the finals of Code S. Neeb won a weekender, didn't get past RO4. C'mon, if it's so ezpz, why no one else besides Maru? Also he had to beat the best players to get there, the only top player who's not in Korea is Serral. Obviously it's not that ezpz. And don't forget that Maru existed BEFORE the god damn 2018. One of the best Proleague player, 2 starleagues from the Inno domination era when he defeated Inno in the 2nd fastest BO7 ever played by Maru... Managed to get into Code S during the famous blink era and he advanced more than "others" ... etc. I don't get why you have to downplay the achievement, if it's so easy why is Innovation not fighting for the Code S title? Where was he? He had 4 damn seasons to show his greatness... Considering the current RO16, where is he now? From the last 2 years when winning Code S is easier Innovation had 1 Season better than Maru... out of 6 seasons 1. Yet now it's easier than before, that's why he's ... not winning? Well he is older than Maru so we can give him that, but downplaying Maru's GSL runs as "easy now" to argue that INno is better than Maru is a bit silly yes , considering his GSL results. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16063 Posts
On August 01 2019 00:00 deacon.frost wrote: Even if you want to say GSL is easier, what is easier is the RO32, RO16 and forward isn't as easy as people claim it to be. If it's so easy why no foreigner was able to get to win it? How many Code S finals has mjr Special done? Scarlett? And remember that Scarlett WON a weekender in Korea while not being able to get at least to the finals of Code S. Neeb won a weekender, didn't get past RO4. C'mon, if it's so ezpz, why no one else besides Maru? Also he had to beat the best players to get there, the only top player who's not in Korea is Serral. Obviously it's not that ezpz. And don't forget that Maru existed BEFORE the god damn 2018. One of the best Proleague player, 2 starleagues from the Inno domination era when he defeated Inno in the 2nd fastest BO7 ever played by Maru... Managed to get into Code S during the famous blink era and he advanced more than "others" ... etc. I don't get why you have to downplay the achievement, if it's so easy why is Innovation not fighting for the Code S title? Where was he? He had 4 damn seasons to show his greatness... Considering the current RO16, where is he now? From the last 2 years when winning Code S is easier Innovation had 1 Season better than Maru... out of 6 seasons 1. Yet now it's easier than before, that's why he's ... not winning? Nobody said winning GSL is easy nowaday but it's certainly easier than in 2013-2015 because the depth of the korean scene is way lower. this is what Code A (!) looked like in 2014. Nowadays Code A doesn't exist anymore and you have to beat mostly amateurs to qualify. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16063 Posts
On July 31 2019 21:55 parksonsc wrote: Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays. I can also say Innovation has never been the best player of a year | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On August 01 2019 02:31 Charoisaur wrote: Nobody said winning GSL is easy nowaday but it's certainly easier than in 2013-2015 because the depth of the korean scene is way lower. this is what Code A (!) looked like in 2014. Nowadays Code A doesn't exist anymore and you have to beat mostly amateurs to qualify. That's what I pointed with the RO32 being easier. THe depth isn't there | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26779 Posts
Across the eras a player who loses in Ro32 or doesn’t qualify, even if it was a harder era in terms of depth in all likelihood wasn’t in shape that particular season to be a threat to the other contenders. Even now the Ro32 isn’t worse across the board, there are some weaker groups than before but it’s not always every group, by Ro16 it’s generally back to being stacked and Ro8 on I’d say it’s still as deep as ever. | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
On July 31 2019 21:55 parksonsc wrote: Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays. I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive? Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc). Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad). Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8990 Posts
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Solar424
United States4001 Posts
On August 01 2019 14:00 Nakajin wrote: Guys I'm gonna be honest, I do am slightly annoyed that 12 thousand Poles came to TL to fuck up a community vote and not even half of a pourcent of them could be bother to screw mine. Inno and Maru aren't Polish, if Nerchio, Mana, or Elazer made it to the finals they'd be in the lead by 5000. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19348 Posts
On August 01 2019 14:00 Nakajin wrote: Guys I'm gonna be honest, I do am slightly annoyed that 12 thousand Poles came to TL to fuck up a community vote and not even half of a pourcent of them could be bother to screw mine. How about the fact that they only voted in the Zerg poll and ignored the Terran and Protoss ones. Imagine if they all decided to pick which name sounded the most fun in the other two polls while they were there. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26779 Posts
On August 01 2019 05:10 Xain0n wrote: I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive? Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc). Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad). Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements. In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup. As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time? | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
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Ej_
47656 Posts
On August 02 2019 02:53 Wombat_NI wrote: As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time? It's probably 2015 Rain, when he won GSL by smashing Maru and ByuL and had arguably top2 PvZ in the world (behind Zest). | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 02 2019 02:53 Wombat_NI wrote: In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup. As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time? Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26779 Posts
Players may excel at one for a while and another at another time, but looking back they might blend together and feel a monster in both. It’s probably easier to be fully rounded but be a bit of a lower level of player, I mean definitely easier than Maru raising his vT to the stellar level of his vP I wonder who the least rounded top tier player is come to think of it. Sadly without something like Proleague a player can’t really make it as a true specialist sniper anymore. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 02 2019 06:15 Wombat_NI wrote: Good shouts, it gets harder the longer a player’s span is to recall specific periods and how their matchups all were Players may excel at one for a while and another at another time, but looking back they might blend together and feel a monster in both. It’s probably easier to be fully rounded but be a bit of a lower level of player, I mean definitely easier than Maru raising his vT to the stellar level of his vP I wonder who the least rounded top tier player is come to think of it. Sadly without something like Proleague a player can’t really make it as a true specialist sniper anymore. If you're a foreigner and your good matchup is against Zerg you can. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8990 Posts
On August 02 2019 05:55 Morbidius wrote: Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja. 2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too. No one could touch his bullshit. | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On August 02 2019 06:43 Nakajin wrote: 2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too. No one could touch his bullshit. The only guy to master the flying tank, i wonder if other players Terrans would eventually catch up if it wasn't removed, everyone talks about his Reapers because of Blizzcon but i think the flying tank was the core to his sucess. | ||
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