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Kitai
United States886 Posts
Maru had one fantastic year for preparation-style and performed almost identically well in proleague, but falls behind INno in the other categories. I won't pretend he's not a contender, but I firmly believe INno is still the GOAT. P.S. Curse you Nakajin for hiding results even after voting! *shakes fist* Just kidding, thanks for running this  | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On July 30 2019 02:57 arcane1129 wrote: He beat the 2 best players in the world back to back, and you're only considering the final bracket. In the first qualifier he beat Cure, Parting, Byun, Gumiho, and lost to Dark. In the second, he beat Fantasy, Patience, Zest, Dear, and Rogue. I don't see how you could argue that he has no shot at winning another premier when he already won one this year (technically 2, but the second was a weak tournament) and his play has been on a slight upward trend since last year outside of his recent gsl group, if anything. Also, Inno used to be known for his speed and mechanics and was considered the best in the world in that department for quite a while. I agree he relies more on timing attacks now (mostly in TvP, in which case it's hard to blame him too much) and doesn't quite match up to Maru in that regard, but he's still a beast. You think INno would have a chance at winning a tournament that featured a bunch of the best players? Personally I don't think so. I'd happily be proven wrong but right now I'd bet on him never even making a finals again. WeSG was a cool send off but judging by his stream he doesn't even seem that motivated anymore. Obviously INno has good speed and mechanics, he's up there with the best. But we're comparing him to Maru here. Inno relies on exploiting whatever build is favourable in the meta at any given time. His multitasking has never been his strong suit either. He's best when there's only one thing he needs to practice and when there's only one thing going on at once in a game. In terms of variety in builds/unit sets, Maru is the absolute king. It terms of micro he's the best with almost anything (with some exceptions ofc, ByuN was better at reapers, INno and DreaM were better at splits vs banes). It's rare to see INno win games with inferior units or at a severe disadvantage in the meta just because he could outmultitask or outcontrol his opponents hard enough, that's almost a trademark for Maru. A nice example is classic TvP. INno would do what you're supposed to (2-3 base allin/pull the boys). Maru would win by outmultitasking the protoss and having the speed to catch them off guard and either do critical drop damage or snipe certain units (usually colossus). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
I don’t think he’s quite up there any more, but then again I don’t think the current iteration of Inno is as mechanically scary as he was at his peak. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On July 30 2019 03:10 Kitai wrote: Also cast my vote for INnoVation. I think he's just better overall when you consider his longevity and the breadth of his abilities in different tournament formats. He's proven himself to be one of the best in weekenders, Proleague, other team leagues, and preparation-style tournaments, and has done so consistently over a very long period of time. Maru had one fantastic year for preparation-style and performed almost identically well in proleague, but falls behind INno in the other categories. I won't pretend he's not a contender, but I firmly believe INno is still the GOAT. I swear people forget Maru played before 2018 sometimes. He won his first starleague over a year before INno did, and his first tournament a month after INno did. He's been almost always either #1 or #2 terran since 2013 (the only real exception being 2017) He's also much more consistent than INno if you look back since the start of HotS season-by-season. In korean tournaments anyway. This is what happens when people only remember championships. INno winning one event a year and falling off half the time is somehow more consistent than Maru being ro8/ro4 in everything. On July 30 2019 03:13 Wombat_NI wrote: You can’t really not delve into a discussion about mechanical chops when you say Inno isn’t comparable there. It’s a bold claim, possibly true but not one you can just state without elaboration. I'm honestly confused that people wanna go there. I love INno but his way of winning isn't based around being able to react twice as fast or outcontrolling his opponents to any ridiculous degree. He's literally the best player when there's only one thing he has to do. He has very little variety in unit sets or build orders at any given time as well. | ||
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Kitai
United States886 Posts
On July 30 2019 03:18 Fango wrote: I swear people forget Maru played before 2018 sometimes. He won his first starleague over a year before INno did, and his first tournament a month after INno did. He's been almost always either #1 or #2 terran since 2013 (the only real exception being 2017) He's also much more consistent than INno if you look back since the start of HotS season-by-season. In korean tournaments anyway. This is what happens when people only remember championships. INno winning one event a year and falling off half the time is somehow more consistent than Maru being ro8/ro4 in everything. Yea, people do forget Maru played before 2018 when comparing him to INnoVation. Here's what Maru's list of premier accomplishments looks like before 2018: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/1LDgHlb.png) Here's what INno's looks like before 2018: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/nlix43C.png) "Winning one event a year and then falling off" lol. | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19399 Posts
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
- Peak play - Play variety - Micro mechanics - Macro mechanics - Consistency Maru takes it in all these. He is clearly the best macro player ever, no-one has better late game TvP, his control is just out of this world, and I would say he is also slightly better at super lategame TvZ. TvT is the only area where I would give Inno and edge gameplay wise. + Marus micro and success with cheesy builds is legendary at this point. I really do value Inno and its still a close vote, but I just have to give Maru an edge here. Hopefully he wins a Blizzcon so he can cement his GOAT status much more convincingly. Such a unique player deserves it. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On July 29 2019 23:13 Fango wrote: Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times). Wrong! Inno has made consecutive ro8s twice. from 2012 season 5 to 2013 season 1 and from 2014 season 3 to 2015 season 1. If you count 2013 OSL which was the replacement of GSL back then he has done it even 3 times | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On July 30 2019 04:05 BisuDagger wrote: If we take the result of this tournament and use the player rankings as their value, we can decide which SC2 team roster contained the greatest players of all time. Such as SKT - Classic, soO, Innovation, Dark roster of 2015 is a pretty insane lineup using the GOAT point value, but there are many others that are comparable. I'd love to see who comes out on top. no we can't because this tournament doesn't give an accurate ranking (not even according to community perception) because of bracket luck! | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On July 30 2019 04:43 MarianoSC2 wrote: This is a tough vote. Inno clearly takes it in terms of tournament wins and overall results, but I really dont like to value players based on the number of premiere tourneys they won. That is why in my opinion Taeja is not a top 8 player. Of course Inno has much better results in Korean starleagues so its not really comparable, but there are other factors to consider. - Peak play - Play variety - Micro mechanics - Macro mechanics - Consistency Maru takes it in all these. He is clearly the best macro player ever, no-one has better late game TvP, his control is just out of this world, and I would say he is also slightly better at super lategame TvZ. TvT is the only area where I would give Inno and edge gameplay wise. + Marus micro and success with cheesy builds is legendary at this point. I really do value Inno and its still a close vote, but I just have to give Maru an edge here. Hopefully he wins a Blizzcon so he can cement his GOAT status much more convincingly. Such a unique player deserves it. People rate Taeja so highly basically based on those criteria rather than what he actually won. He definitely has better TvP than Inno, or anyone else for sure, equally I don’t think the current iteration of the Innobot is the strongest form, not even close, so of course Maru at his peak is going to win out vs a relatively slumping Innovation. It’s pretty tight really, I think for pure ‘aura’, Mvp was nicknamed the King of Wings for a reason, Inno really felt that cut above and dominant at times in HoTS, and Maru has really shone in Legacy as just feeling like the best Terran/overall player. A strong Blizzcon would probably tip the scales for me if Maru gets it, as Inno has really underperformed there historically. I think greatness transcends pure numerical comparisons and measured discussions, it’s that feeling of awe and ‘whoa how do you beat this guy?’ you get watching, when someone is playing against the other best players in the business but still feels on another level. They both have it in spades but Inno’s strongest period in pure terms of being ahead of the competition in gameplay terms is something like 6 years ago now, before he even won anything weirdly enough. Hopefully for the scene 2020 will bring a remotivated Inno, as well as the returning military players getting more into shape. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
-WCS season 2 final 2013 -Kespa Cup 2014 -Kespa Cup no1 2015 -GSL 2016 season 1 and 2 -SSL 2016 season 1 and 2 -IEM Katowice 2019 -Super tournament no1 2019 So if you take out the first year of LOTV where they both underperformed there was only 5 event where neither INno nor Maru was in the top 8 including a 2 year stretch in 2017-18 when there was one of them in the top 8 of every single event. I could have missed a couple other events but I think thats it | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On July 30 2019 07:59 Nakajin wrote: Here a fun stats: Since the start of 2013 either Maru or INnovation have been in the top 8 of every event at least 1 of them played in with the exception of : -WCS season 2 final 2013 -Kespa Cup 2014 -Kespa Cup no1 2015 -GSL 2016 season 1 and 2 -SSL 2016 season 1 and 2 -IEM Katowice 2019 -Super tournament no1 2019 So if you take out the first year of LOTV where they both underperformed there was only 5 event where neither INno nor Maru was in the top 8 including a 2 year stretch in 2017-18 when there was one of them in the top 8 of every single event. I could have missed a couple other events but I think thats it Some solid research there my man! | ||
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19399 Posts
On July 30 2019 05:00 Charoisaur wrote: no we can't because this tournament doesn't give an accurate ranking (not even according to community perception) because of bracket luck! I just mean as an alternative to us doing an entire community vote process like this one for teams. Obviously this tournament isn't flawless, but the results are still fun and we can still use them to further that fun.  | ||
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Xamo
Spain886 Posts
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
For me while I can agree that it feels iffy having a GOAT that cant seem to win weekenders I'm not really sure that I agree that not going to a tournament is a detriment to a players overall achievements. Maru has rarely participated in weekender tournaments, while he has failed the few times he has competed its a bit rough to compare his weekender results with Innos results (who have competed in many more). Theoretically if Maru won 0 out of 2 and Inno won 3 out of 10 is Innos results really that much more impressive? Obviously some wins are better than no wins but I feel Innos weekender results compated to Maru not competing is being a tad over valued in my opinion. On the other hand we have Maru who has historically excelled even when terran was weak and Inno that wins in favorable metas. I think Maru is greater but I can totaly get behind a tie =D | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16103 Posts
On July 31 2019 02:41 Shuffleblade wrote: While I ofc voted Maru I feel like its Marus weakness lack of weekender achievements vs Innos weakness of only winning when terran is strong that decides which is less great than the other. For me while I can agree that it feels iffy having a GOAT that cant seem to win weekenders I'm not really sure that I agree that not going to a tournament is a detriment to a players overall achievements. Maru has rarely participated in weekender tournaments, while he has failed the few times he has competed its a bit rough to compare his weekender results with Innos results (who have competed in many more). Theoretically if Maru won 0 out of 2 and Inno won 3 out of 10 is Innos results really that much more impressive? Obviously some wins are better than no wins but I feel Innos weekender results compated to Maru not competing is being a tad over valued in my opinion. On the other hand we have Maru who has historically excelled even when terran was weak and Inno that wins in favorable metas. I think Maru is greater but I can totaly get behind a tie =D If we only look at the "big" weekenders like Blizzcon, Katowice, GSLvtW, Super tournament etc Inno hasn't really competed in more of them than Maru - and the small weekenders don't count for much anyway imo like HSC or IEM Gamescom. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12134 Posts
On July 31 2019 03:38 Charoisaur wrote: If we only look at the "big" weekenders like Blizzcon, Katowice, GSLvtW, Super tournament etc Inno hasn't really competed in more of them than Maru - and the small weekenders don't count for much anyway imo like HSC or IEM Gamescom. You would have to check each and every small tourney because some had better players in them than others. But if you do this, then you have to use the Korean server qualifications for certain tournaments(e.g. WESG) which brings another new level of mess into it  Fun, fun, fun | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On July 31 2019 06:21 deacon.frost wrote: You would have to check each and every small tourney because some had better players in them than others. But if you do this, then you have to use the Korean server qualifications for certain tournaments(e.g. WESG) which brings another new level of mess into it Fun, fun, fun I crunched the numbers but alas my dog ate my homework ;( | ||
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parksonsc
175 Posts
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones. Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays. | ||
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