EPTTeam Liquid GOAT contest Final 8 - Page 21
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Sorathez
Australia209 Posts
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pvsnp
7676 Posts
Both of them are pretty accomplished in teamleagues, so I don't think that will play any part here. Both of them largely played in the same country and the same scene at the same time, against the same competition. Even the total amount of time they spent at the top is roughly the same. Hell, more than half of both of their trophies are exactly the same–remove the common ones and you get 2 starleagues vs 4 weekenders. Honestly, I don't think there really can be a definitive winner here. It all comes down to how you weight results. I've always thought of GOAT as a strict count of results without regard to time, so I voted Inno. But that definition is up for interpretation. I was initially leaning Maru until I went back and compared their results directly. | ||
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Anc13nt
1557 Posts
Edit: Also, the fact that Inno was greater in a more competitive era (2013-2015) also is a point in his favour. | ||
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JoeCool
Germany2517 Posts
On July 29 2019 14:46 pvsnp wrote: Maru vs Inno is actually super close and basically comes down to whether you value results over time or one big streak. Inno has more trophies in total, but Maru won most of his in the span of 12 months. Inno started in 2012 and won at a steady pace, Maru started in 2010 but peaked in 2018. Maru still needs to prove himself outside korea in my opinion to be considered the GOAT. Still, it's a close one. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15878 Posts
On July 29 2019 14:46 pvsnp wrote: Maru vs Inno is actually super close and basically comes down to whether you value results over time or one big streak. Inno has more trophies in total, but Maru won most of his in the span of 12 months. Inno started in 2012 and won at a steady pace, Maru started in 2010 but peaked in 2018. Both of them are pretty accomplished in teamleagues, so I don't think that will play any part here. Both of them largely played in the same country and the same scene at the same time, against the same competition. Even the total amount of time they spent at the top is roughly the same. Hell, more than half of both of their trophies are exactly the same–remove the common ones and you get 2 starleagues vs 4 weekenders. Honestly, I don't think there really can be a definitive winner here. It all comes down to how you weight results. I've always thought of GOAT as a strict count of results without regard to time, so I voted Inno. But that definition is up for interpretation. I was initially leaning Maru until I went back and compared their results directly. Yeah they are incredibly close in results. I choose Inno though because he has been succesful in both formats - weekenders and Starleagues as opposed to Maru who other than WESG has only had success in Starleagues. But looking at their recent forms I think it's only a matter of time until Maru takes the mantle. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6799 Posts
Makes for way more tension :D Wonder why they didn't do this for the GSL v World votes | ||
Poopi
France12761 Posts
When you add that to his already nice resume, it becomes a no brainer. He is also the most gifted mechanically currently, and he is only like 21yo so if sc2 stays alive he’ll win more than INno. Voted for Mvp against soO because it’s not even comparable. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 29 2019 00:46 AzAlexZ wrote: money =/= success. You might want to think more about that, cuz you will lead a very disappointing life if money is all that success means to you You do realize different people measure success diferentially? And I would say a good number of people will tell you that success equals to money On July 29 2019 13:45 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This is a hard one both to vote for and predict. I ended up voting for INnoVatioN, but I'd guess that Maru will win since he has the recency advantage. Also the Chinese fanbase... don't forget about that | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
Starleagues - Maru (duh) Teamleagues - slight edge to Maru because of SPL results, but it's pretty damn close here. Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times). Peak - Maru (this isn't really up for debate). In terms of results overall they're pretty close, but in terms of gameplay/mechanics Maru takes it over anyone. No one can play sc2 like he does. Longevity - They both won their first events in mid 2013 (within a month of each other) and their latest in 2019. Then again INno has had greater periods of irrelevency. Also it's worth noting that Maru is in his prime and looks to keep winning. INno isn't winning any more premiers. Results - it's tough, INno won more tournaments, but Maru's wins are generally worth more. Even INno's starleagues were won with pretty favourable metas. And four Code S in a row is something no one thought was doable. I said this in the Mvp debate, but (GOAT or not) Maru is the best starleague player, best proleague player, best player in terms of gameplay/mechanics, best player at overcoming balance. and absolute GOAT in TvP. It's hard to give INno the vote over that just because of having more weekenders. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17898 Posts
On July 29 2019 23:13 Fango wrote: Weekenders - INno (duh) Starleagues - Maru (duh) Teamleagues - slight edge to Maru because of SPL results, but it's pretty damn close here. Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times). Peak - Maru (this isn't really up for debate). In terms of results overall they're pretty close, but in terms of gameplay/mechanics Maru takes it over anyone. No one can play sc2 like he does. Longevity - They both won their first events in mid 2013 (within a month of each other) and their latest in 2019. Then again INno has had greater periods of irrelevency. Also it's worth noting that Maru is in his prime and looks to keep winning. INno isn't winning any more premiers. Results - it's tough, INno won more tournaments, but Maru's wins are generally worth more. Even INno's starleagues were won with pretty favourable metas. And four Code S in a row is something no one thought was doable. I said this in the Mvp debate, but (GOAT or not) Maru is the best starleague player, best proleague player, best player in terms of gameplay/mechanics, best player at overcoming balance. and absolute GOAT in TvP. It's hard to give INno the vote over that just because of having more weekenders. Inno won WESG... after looking irrelevant for most of 2018. Based on what are you saying he isn't winning any more premiere tournaments? Also, Maru is not the best proleague player, and "mechanics/gameplay" is completely subjective. | ||
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Nakajin
Canada8988 Posts
On July 29 2019 23:13 Fango wrote: Weekenders - INno (duh) Starleagues - Maru (duh) Teamleagues - slight edge to Maru because of SPL results, but it's pretty damn close here. Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times). Peak - Maru (this isn't really up for debate). In terms of results overall they're pretty close, but in terms of gameplay/mechanics Maru takes it over anyone. No one can play sc2 like he does. Longevity - They both won their first events in mid 2013 (within a month of each other) and their latest in 2019. Then again INno has had greater periods of irrelevency. Also it's worth noting that Maru is in his prime and looks to keep winning. INno isn't winning any more premiers. Results - it's tough, INno won more tournaments, but Maru's wins are generally worth more. Even INno's starleagues were won with pretty favourable metas. And four Code S in a row is something no one thought was doable. I said this in the Mvp debate, but (GOAT or not) Maru is the best starleague player, best proleague player, best player in terms of gameplay/mechanics, best player at overcoming balance. and absolute GOAT in TvP. It's hard to give INno the vote over that just because of having more weekenders. INno has a 65% record in proleague vs a 66% for Maru, but if you take out the 2011-12 hybrid season where INno went 0-6 in sc2 he goes up to a 70% win rate much higher than Maru + he's one of only 2 key player (with sOs) to win 2 Proleague finals, so I don't think Maru can be best Proleague player. INno also did exceptionnally well in other teamleague, although Maru had fewer chance to shine in those. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24266 Posts
In ye olde regular sports being able to win outside of optimal conditions is a frequent tiebreaker between a great player and a GOAT candidate. Winning on golf courses that don’t suit your game’s strengths, or winning on surfaces you’re perceived to be weak on in tennis. Rafael Nadal had to win off the clay of Roland Garros to go from being the best clay counter of all time to being in the conversation for best player of all time. Maru’s other feats elevate him above most players without some extra weekenders, but I don’t think they’re sufficient to put him above Innovation at this stage. | ||
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Argonauta
Spain4902 Posts
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arcane1129
United States268 Posts
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BisuDagger
Bisutopia19201 Posts
 INnoVation/Results vs Maru/ResultsThis is how good these two are. Dating back to 2013 and comparing them year by year, they are tied 2-2 for years where one person clearly got better results then the other person in regards to WCS/GSL/Global Finals results. So then you have to move on to Standalone tournaments. It is to Maru's detriment that he has not participated in as many Standalone or Online tournaments as Innovation has and Innovation has won quite a few or placed very high. Therefore Innovation wins because not only has he been as consistent as Maru, but also achieved more results in the same period of time. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland24266 Posts
On July 30 2019 01:13 Argonauta wrote: this new weekender fetish that we have since Serral peaked to justify putting him above Maru in 2018 is becoming funnier with time. How is this a new thing at all? | ||
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TheAnarchy
Chile1105 Posts
Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On July 29 2019 23:29 Acrofales wrote: Inno won WESG... after looking irrelevant for most of 2018. Based on what are you saying he isn't winning any more premiere tournaments? Also, Maru is not the best proleague player, and "mechanics/gameplay" is completely subjective. WeSG is the the easiest premier to win, he only had to beat like two elite players (both of whom had vT as their weakest matchup). It was a cool send-off but he hasn't looked like a contender in any korean tournament for the last year and a half. I hate to say it but he isn't winning any more premiers. Same with Zest or sOs. Especially compared to Maru who could win the next 3 korean tournaments without it being a shock. I think everyone could agree that the poll happening now and not in a year or so favours INno here. I'm don't really wanna go into talking about mechanics/gameplay because that's a long discussion. But INno just doesn't compare in that department. We're comparing a guy who wins almost entirely of exploiting favourable timing attacks in the meta (and falls off big time if there aren't any), to a guy who wins most games by just outmacro'ing/controlling/playing faster than his opponents regardless of composition or meta. I can get behind arguments for INno being GOAT, it's either him or Maru at this point. But there are few points that aren't really arguable in my eyes. Gameplay and mechanics goes to Maru. He can use any unit set at seemingly any point in a meta and win by just being better. He has the best micro and multitasking of almost anyone. | ||
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
He was either #1 or #2 in wins every year he competed, is anyone else close to that? Not to mention reaching an 85% winrate in the 2016 season, second only to Flash's 85% in 2010. People call Taeja's IPL the best teamleague performance ever while Maru basically did the same thing but during kespa and against the best players in the world. Both him and INno have a finals Mvp so they're even on that. INno does have two wins vs Maru's one, but Maru's is certainly the most impressive given how unbelievably hard he carried Jin Air that season (whereas I can see 2015 SKT winning even without INno). I don't have time to look up INno's winrates in playoffs right now, but that was where Maru really stepped up, iirc going 29-13 in playoff matches. It's a shame the stats page on liquipedia doesn't include playoff games because it really undersells how much Maru carried his team. | ||
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arcane1129
United States268 Posts
On July 30 2019 02:45 Fango wrote: WeSG is the the easiest premier to win, he only had to beat like two elite players (both of whom had vT as their weakest matchup). It was a cool send-off but he hasn't looked like a contender in any korean tournament for the last year and a half. I hate to say it but he isn't winning any more premiers. Same with Zest or sOs. Especially compared to Maru who could win the next 3 korean tournaments without it being a shock. I think everyone could agree that the poll happening now and not in a year or so favours INno here. I'm don't really wanna go into talking about mechanics/gameplay because that's a long discussion. But INno just doesn't compare in that department. We're comparing a guy who wins almost entirely of exploiting favourable timing attacks in the meta (and falls off big time if there aren't any), to a guy who wins most games by just outmacro'ing/controlling/playing faster than his opponents regardless of composition or meta. He beat the 2 best players in the world back to back, and you're only considering the final bracket. In the first qualifier he beat Cure, Parting, Byun, Gumiho, and lost to Dark. In the second, he beat Fantasy, Patience, Zest, Dear, and Rogue. I don't see how you could argue that he has no shot at winning another premier when he already won one this year (technically 2, but the second was a weak tournament) and his play has been on a slight upward trend since last year outside of his recent gsl group, if anything. Also, Inno used to be known for his speed and mechanics and was considered the best in the world in that department for quite a while. I agree he relies more on timing attacks now (mostly in TvP, in which case it's hard to blame him too much) and doesn't quite match up to Maru in that regard, but he's still a beast. | ||
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