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Not really sure what mana/inca results from 8 years ago have to do with the current state of wcs/gsl disparity
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Italy3963 Posts
On July 26 2019 06:44 Moonerz wrote:
Not really sure why mana/inca results from 8 years ago have to do with the current state of wcs/gsl disparity
Not also really sure why are we speaking of that in a Mvp vs Maru GOAT contest.
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Czech Republic12134 Posts
On July 25 2019 23:46 Fango wrote:
On a serious note, Maru has just done more than Mvp.
His 2018 was more dominant than Mvp's 2011. Not even mentioning the starleagues he won in 2013, 2015, or 2019.
He's been on and off the best terran in the world for seven years now (compared with Mvp's two years) and still more consistant than his rivals like TY, Teaja, or INno.
He's had multiple historic streaks across the expansions. He crushed it from mid 2013 - mid 2014 despite terran being complete garbage. He was at worst the #2 player of 2015. In 2016 he solidified himself as the best proleague player of all time by adding a Flash-level season to his already ridiculous SPL record. And then there's winning four Code S in a row from 2018-2019.
In terms of mechanics he probably has the ever in the game, whether it be the insane TvP micro of HotS or the LotV lategame that at times looks seemingly unbeatable. His micro/macro/multitasking are completely unrivaled, only Serral at his peak last year really compared to that.
GOAT or not, Maru is the best proleague player, best starleague player, best player in terms of mechanics, and as far as I know undisputed as the greatest TvP player. Personally I don't think Mvp can stand up to that just because "he won more weekenders in WoL" or "made a GSL finals while being literally dead".
Great writeup
On July 26 2019 02:46 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2019 02:09 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 01:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 25 2019 08:32 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 08:00 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2019 06:38 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:
MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY? Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player. or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Enlighten me, what am I missing? What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details. I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially. Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it. I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on. I think one could be even more thorough and include other stuff as well, though it's also clear that at some point it becomes almost negligible unless both players are really close without it. I'd never include any online competition personally, the lack of importance makes this reasonable imo. I am not saying this system is anywhere close to perfect, but it's a decent starting point even though i personally would change quite a few things (remember that i made it as charitable towards serral as possible without being completely ridiculous!) So what i get from you is that you dislike the fact that a system like this gives more credit to players who have more results. I understand that Mvp had to retire and thus couldn't get as many, but that's just bad luck for him, i can only look at things which happened and not give him extra credit for things which maybe could have. So yes, players who played longer than him on a very high lvl might just overtake him in a goat ranking solely based on them having more time to get good results. I think that is also fairly reasonable.
Of course it's reasonable, especially if you keep as high as Maru or Inno(while he had bigger slumps  ). Mvp's body failed, he played shortly yet he's this high. What else people need to see? But truth to be told both Maru and Innovation surpassed him based on the test of time. And they both were very tested.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On July 25 2019 23:46 Fango wrote:
On a serious note, Maru has just done more than Mvp.
His 2018 was more dominant than Mvp's 2011. Not even mentioning the starleagues he won in 2013, 2015, or 2019.
He's been on and off the best terran in the world for seven years now (compared with Mvp's two years) and still more consistant than his rivals like TY, Teaja, or INno.
He's had multiple historic streaks across the expansions. He crushed it from mid 2013 - mid 2014 despite terran being complete garbage. He was at worst the #2 player of 2015. In 2016 he solidified himself as the best proleague player of all time by adding a Flash-level season to his already ridiculous SPL record. And then there's winning four Code S in a row from 2018-2019.
In terms of mechanics he probably has the ever in the game, whether it be the insane TvP micro of HotS or the LotV lategame that at times looks seemingly unbeatable. His micro/macro/multitasking are completely unrivaled, only Serral at his peak last year really compared to that.
GOAT or not, Maru is the best proleague player, best starleague player, best player in terms of mechanics, and as far as I know undisputed as the greatest TvP player. Personally I don't think Mvp can stand up to that just because "he won more weekenders in WoL" or "made a GSL finals while being literally dead".
It’s a strategy game, enforced by injury yes but Mvp sticking around at top level relevancy for that last GSL run almost purely on strategy due to his mechanical deficit, pretty impressive stuff. His set planning was often exemplary and he gradually transitioned from having a mechanical advantage over the field to a disadvantage and still prospered.
Maru’s incredible too obviously, as sporting analogies go he’s Rory McIlroy to Mvp’s Tiger Woods. If Rory fires and all is well in his world he can demolish a field by 8 shots, if he doesn’t he doesn’t win narrowly, he just doesn’t win. Tiger can grind it, win on a broken leg or whatever.
Maru’s relative weakness in weekenders is mystifying to me because he’s Maru and so mechanically good. His baseline is so good he should be winning more than he does there, not in an insulting way but in a complimentary way to his top level of play.
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On July 05 2019 12:55 Nakajin wrote:
In Lotv he is a lot willing to transition with composition based on ghost, ravens and liberator, but usually always keeping a good amount of bio-ball, late game still isn’t his most comfortable phase, but it’s one he’s well equipped to battle anyone in.
I think Maru's late game capabilities are hugely underestimated. He is too rational of a thinker in order to aim for the late game when there is an easier way to get to victory earlier. But with mentioned raven/liberator/ghost style last year and vsP ghost/viking/liberator into mass BC this year he showed his big time lategame prowess in which he is an almost impossible obstacle to overcome, once he perfected a certain style.
This last condition is indeed a favor that MVP has over Maru. Maru never was particularly good with coming up with ne strategies on the flow. We saw him adapting to certain styles over the course of several matches.
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On July 26 2019 02:09 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2019 01:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 25 2019 08:32 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 08:00 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2019 06:38 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:
MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY? Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player. or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Enlighten me, what am I missing? What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details. I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially. Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it. I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.)
I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain.
That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime.
I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime.
I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win.
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Happy birthday Nakajin 
The greatest "the greatest"-thread maker :D
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Italy3963 Posts
On July 26 2019 15:25 RatzBarcode wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2019 02:09 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 01:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 25 2019 08:32 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 08:00 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2019 06:38 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:
MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY? Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player. or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Enlighten me, what am I missing? What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details. I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially. Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it. I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on. They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.) I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain. That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime. I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime. I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win.
No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything.
I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
On July 26 2019 18:51 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2019 15:25 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 26 2019 02:09 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 01:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 25 2019 08:32 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 08:00 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2019 06:38 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:
MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY? Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player. or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Enlighten me, what am I missing? What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details. I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially. Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it. I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on. They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.) I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain. That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime. I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime. I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win. No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format.
Happy birthday Nakajin!
We don’t have many Korean posters in here, but I imagine there’s a pretty large gap in perceptions of prestige across the scenes, be it with the non GSL Starleagues or Proleague
There also hasn’t really been enough stability in terms of tournament structure and competitions over SC2’s lifespan for things to settle down and the prestige hierarchy really get established
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Canada8991 Posts
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On July 26 2019 21:05 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2019 18:51 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 15:25 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 26 2019 02:09 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 01:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 25 2019 08:32 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 08:00 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2019 06:38 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:
MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY? Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player. or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Enlighten me, what am I missing? What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details. I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially. Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it. I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on. They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.) I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain. That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime. I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime. I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win. No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format. We don’t have many Korean posters in here, but I imagine there’s a pretty large gap in perceptions of prestige across the scenes, be it with the non GSL Starleagues or Proleague
Was in Solar who said that dreamhacks weren't real tournaments or something along those lines?
In any case SSL and OSL shouldn't be held any lower than GSL. Especially when the OSL in question was just GSL season 2 of that year but with OGN broadcasting part of it. People seem to forget about SSL because it stopped running. Players like Maru, Dream, Dark, herO, Classic etc have gone underrated compared with if they won GSL instead.
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On July 27 2019 03:24 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On July 26 2019 21:05 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 26 2019 18:51 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 15:25 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 26 2019 02:09 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 01:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 25 2019 08:32 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 08:00 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2019 06:38 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote:
MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY? Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player. or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Enlighten me, what am I missing? What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details. I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially. Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it. I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on. They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.) I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain. That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime. I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime. I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win. No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format. We don’t have many Korean posters in here, but I imagine there’s a pretty large gap in perceptions of prestige across the scenes, be it with the non GSL Starleagues or Proleague Was in Solar who said that dreamhacks weren't real tournaments or something along those lines? In any case SSL and OSL shouldn't be held any lower than GSL. Especially when the OSL in question was just GSL season 2 of that year but with OGN broadcasting part of it. People seem to forget about SSL because it stopped running. Players like Maru, Dream, Dark, herO, Classic etc have gone underrated compared with if they won GSL instead.
The formats are quite different though- the OSL Maru won used Bo1 in the group stage, and the SSL he won didn't have a Ro32. It's hard to say that the tournaments are automatically equal to a GSL in terms of difficulty.
The real test should be to look at who the players beat along the way, and how difficult that was in the context at the time, rather than just looking at tournaments and assuming the runs were equivalent.
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Canada8991 Posts
On July 27 2019 06:11 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2019 03:24 Fango wrote:On July 26 2019 21:05 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 26 2019 18:51 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 15:25 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 26 2019 02:09 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 01:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 25 2019 08:32 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 08:00 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2019 06:38 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
Stuchiu would curse them all.
It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Enlighten me, what am I missing? What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details. I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially. Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it. I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on. They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.) I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain. That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime. I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime. I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win. No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format. We don’t have many Korean posters in here, but I imagine there’s a pretty large gap in perceptions of prestige across the scenes, be it with the non GSL Starleagues or Proleague Was in Solar who said that dreamhacks weren't real tournaments or something along those lines? In any case SSL and OSL shouldn't be held any lower than GSL. Especially when the OSL in question was just GSL season 2 of that year but with OGN broadcasting part of it. People seem to forget about SSL because it stopped running. Players like Maru, Dream, Dark, herO, Classic etc have gone underrated compared with if they won GSL instead. The formats are quite different though- the OSL Maru won used Bo1 in the group stage, and the SSL he won didn't have a Ro32. It's hard to say that the tournaments are automatically equal to a GSL in terms of difficulty. The real test should be to look at who the players beat along the way, and how difficult that was in the context at the time, rather than just looking at tournaments and assuming the runs were equivalent.
Personally I felt like the 2015-16 version of SSL was more competitive than the GSL format, the challenger league made for a version of Code A that was more appropriate with the lower number of pro players in the scenes.
I would love for the GSL to take a note out of the SSL
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On July 27 2019 06:11 Yonnua wrote:Show nested quote +On July 27 2019 03:24 Fango wrote:On July 26 2019 21:05 Wombat_NI wrote:On July 26 2019 18:51 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 15:25 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 26 2019 02:09 Xain0n wrote:On July 26 2019 01:01 The_Red_Viper wrote:On July 25 2019 08:32 Xain0n wrote:On July 25 2019 08:00 Charoisaur wrote:On July 25 2019 06:38 Xain0n wrote:
[quote]
Stuchiu would curse them all.
It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Enlighten me, what am I missing? What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details. I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially. Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it. I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on. They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.) I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain. That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime. I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime. I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win. No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format. We don’t have many Korean posters in here, but I imagine there’s a pretty large gap in perceptions of prestige across the scenes, be it with the non GSL Starleagues or Proleague Was in Solar who said that dreamhacks weren't real tournaments or something along those lines? In any case SSL and OSL shouldn't be held any lower than GSL. Especially when the OSL in question was just GSL season 2 of that year but with OGN broadcasting part of it. People seem to forget about SSL because it stopped running. Players like Maru, Dream, Dark, herO, Classic etc have gone underrated compared with if they won GSL instead. The real test should be to look at who the players beat along the way, and how difficult that was in the context at the time, rather than just looking at tournaments and assuming the runs were equivalent.
I'd agree with this but also that it should also apply to GSL wins. Some wins are worth more than others. Most people seem to ignore the zergs who won towards the end of WoL for example even if they were still legitimate Code S titles.
On the subject of Maru, his OSL and SSL wins were insane. For OSL he beat sOs, Symbol, INno, and Rain. All of those guys were insane at the time, even beating INno 4-0 who was considered the world's best player by just about everyone.
His SSL win was even more impressive, beating Solar, Dark, Leenock, Stats, and DreaM. Those guys (with the exception of Leenock) were all contenders to win titles at the time.
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Northern Ireland27478 Posts
I mean for me a Starleague is a Starleague, I’m curious as to how they’re perceived in Korea. The foreign viewership by and large don’t seem to value them quite as highly as a GSL, but I can’t see that being the case in Korea. Given how huge BW was and how prestigious the OSL name was for example, whereas many foreign viewers really only entered at SC2
Proleague suffers even more in this regard I believe just given how SC2 has been since it started. I’ve followed SC2 since the early days and it’s for most of the time really felt more individual, more player driven and with players with certain personalities and styles getting the fans over the teams.
Probably a consequence of SC2 being much more foreigner friendly, many events being outside of Korea etc.
You can’t really have good team competitions with a player base that’s way less centralised than it was in BW. Players are all over the place, to do team events requires a lot of travelling expenses etc.
It’s a real shame as I did love team competitions when they did happen, hopefully the scene can find a way to get that element back
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Man, I understand TaeJa losing to INno, but Zest? TaeJa has 11 Premiers over the course of 3 years vs Zest's 6 over the course of 3 years, and he beat Zest head-to-head both times when they were both in their prime, and even as recently as last winter's HSC right after he came back from retirement.
What gives? >.>
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On July 27 2019 12:42 Kitai wrote:
Man, I understand TaeJa losing to INno, but Zest? TaeJa has 11 Premiers over the course of 3 years vs Zest's 6 over the course of 3 years, and he beat Zest head-to-head both times when they were both in their prime, and even as recently as last winter's HSC right after he came back from retirement.
What gives? >.>
Zest won 2 GSLs where Taeja made no finals. Taeja's 11 premiers were not that impressive as it sounds.
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Can someone explain to me how those SSLs worked? I've looked at liquidpedia and can't figure out exactly what the hell was going on. I think SoO even has like a 2016 SSL Code A win or something because it worked oldschool like that?
I can even understand 2012 GSL with the Up or Down and Code A, etc, but I didn't watch the SSLs so the format looks kinda wack.
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On July 27 2019 15:52 RatzBarcode wrote:
Can someone explain to me how those SSLs worked? I've looked at liquidpedia and can't figure out exactly what the hell was going on. I think SoO even has like a 2016 SSL Code A win or something because it worked oldschool like that?
I can even understand 2012 GSL with the Up or Down and Code A, etc, but I didn't watch the SSLs so the format looks kinda wack.
2015 SSL was the same format as GSL, but with only 16 players (pre-eliminations were bo5 between 32 to thin it out for groups)
The LotV SSL consistent of multiple stages, but the main gist was big round robin group into proleague-like bracket for the premier, and round robin groups for the challenger.
Placements in premier and challenger determined your destined league in the next SSL, but in the end, that event never took place and SpoTV pulled out of SC2.
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EPT
