It’s a tight one for me anyway, he shades it for me for his results he got when injuries hampered his mechanical chops, plus he solidified a lot of what is standard play now.
If it was a speed running contest Maru would have the best times up on the leaderboard, but Mvp would have figured a bunch of routes and tricks out while having pretty good execution himself, so I’d give it to him on that basis.
I voted Maru cause of the insane GSL streak that he had. He's really won so much for a long time now. I'm still torn between him and Innovation for first place. Mvp in my heart is #1 though.
On July 25 2019 23:25 Fango wrote: Lmao imagine having eight Code S in a year and still only winning two
Lmao imagine there only being 16 top players in Korea and still coming 32nd.
Yeah this falls flat because literally every korean player at some point has bombed out of GSL. I was comparing the two most dominant GSL years that ever happened.
On a serious note, Maru has just done more than Mvp.
His 2018 was more dominant than Mvp's 2011. Not even mentioning the starleagues he won in 2013, 2015, or 2019.
He's been on and off the best terran in the world for seven years now (compared with Mvp's two years) and still more consistant than his rivals like TY, Teaja, or INno.
He's had multiple historic streaks across the expansions. He crushed it from mid 2013 - mid 2014 despite terran being complete garbage. He was at worst the #2 player of 2015. In 2016 he solidified himself as the best proleague player of all time by adding a Flash-level season to his already ridiculous SPL record. And then there's winning four Code S in a row from 2018-2019.
In terms of mechanics he probably has the ever in the game, whether it be the insane TvP micro of HotS or the LotV lategame that at times looks seemingly unbeatable. His micro/macro/multitasking are completely unrivaled, only Serral at his peak last year really compared to that.
GOAT or not, Maru is the best proleague player, best starleague player, best player in terms of mechanics, and as far as I know undisputed as the greatest TvP player. Personally I don't think Mvp can stand up to that just because "he won more weekenders in WoL" or "made a GSL finals while being literally dead".
On July 25 2019 23:25 Fango wrote: Lmao imagine having eight Code S in a year and still only winning two
Lmao imagine there only being 16 top players in Korea and still coming 32nd.
Yeah this falls flat because literally every korean player at some point has bombed out of GSL. I was comparing the two most dominant GSL years that ever happened.
not to mention Mvp has also bombed out in the ro32 during his "dominant" year so that really wasn't the smartest thing to say.
On July 25 2019 23:25 Fango wrote: Lmao imagine having eight Code S in a year and still only winning two
Lmao imagine there only being 16 top players in Korea and still coming 32nd.
Yeah this falls flat because literally every korean player at some point has bombed out of GSL. I was comparing the two most dominant GSL years that ever happened.
not to mention Mvp has also bombed out in the ro32 during his "dominant" year so that really wasn't the smartest thing to say.
When Code A was actually a true competition. Maru played for four more years than Mvp and hasn't yet managed to win more tournaments.
Since you guys love Proleague so much, Maru definitely is not the best Proleague player, Stats is. Maru has a marginally better win ratio but less victories, less ace wins, less all kills.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
On July 25 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: On a serious note, Maru has just done more than Mvp.
His 2018 was more dominant than Mvp's 2011. Not even mentioning the starleagues he won in 2013, 2015, or 2019.
He's been on and off the best terran in the world for seven years now (compared with Mvp's two years) and still more consistant than his rivals like TY, Teaja, or INno.
He's had multiple historic streaks across the expansions. He crushed it from mid 2013 - mid 2014 despite terran being complete garbage. He was at worst the #2 player of 2015. In 2016 he solidified himself as the best proleague player of all time by adding a Flash-level season to his already ridiculous SPL record. And then there's winning four Code S in a row from 2018-2019.
In terms of mechanics he probably has the ever in the game, whether it be the insane TvP micro of HotS or the LotV lategame that at times looks seemingly unbeatable. His micro/macro/multitasking are completely unrivaled, only Serral at his peak last year really compared to that.
GOAT or not, Maru is the best proleague player, best starleague player, best player in terms of mechanics, and as far as I know undisputed as the greatest TvP player. Personally I don't think Mvp can stand up to that just because "he won more weekenders in WoL" or "made a GSL finals while being literally dead".
Very good wrap up. People seem to forget that Maru is not just about the 4 GSL in a row. He is so consistently great for such a long time... MVP is one tier lower than him honestly. He is not even in my top 5. But people here seem to love his and be extremely biased towards him. Same with Taeja, Nestea and other WOL legends
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
And this comment is meant to discredit me? Rofl, it just drags you down in the korean elitist meme, thinking GSL ro8 are better than a WCS victory in 2018. Also, I was not speaking of GSL's ro8 but of ro8 in general.
What makes you think my criteria don't come before the players instead of being modeled towards the one I prefer like you say? Are you assuming I am especially fond of Innovation? I'm not, but he looks like a GOAT to me, just like Mvp and some unnamed one and unlike Maru, who's truly overrated in my opinion?
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
I think one could be even more thorough and include other stuff as well, though it's also clear that at some point it becomes almost negligible unless both players are really close without it. I'd never include any online competition personally, the lack of importance makes this reasonable imo.
I am not saying this system is anywhere close to perfect, but it's a decent starting point even though i personally would change quite a few things (remember that i made it as charitable towards serral as possible without being completely ridiculous!)
So what i get from you is that you dislike the fact that a system like this gives more credit to players who have more results. I understand that Mvp had to retire and thus couldn't get as many, but that's just bad luck for him, i can only look at things which happened and not give him extra credit for things which maybe could have. So yes, players who played longer than him on a very high lvl might just overtake him in a goat ranking solely based on them having more time to get good results. I think that is also fairly reasonable.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
And this comment is meant to discredit me? Rofl, it just drags you down in the korean elitist meme, thinking GSL ro8 are better than a WCS victory in 2018. Also, I was not speaking of GSL's ro8 but of ro8 in general.
What makes you think my criteria don't come before the players instead of being modeled towards the one I prefer like you say? Are you assuming I am especially fond of Innovation? I'm not, but he looks like a GOAT to me, just like Mvp and some unnamed one and unlike Maru, who's truly overrated in my opinion?
Do you honestly think Has or Mana could ever make a GSL ro8? These are players that made WCS finals in 2018. GSL ro8 is just as hard as making WCS finals. And for a WCS without Serral it's as hard as winning.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
And this comment is meant to discredit me? Rofl, it just drags you down in the korean elitist meme, thinking GSL ro8 are better than a WCS victory in 2018. Also, I was not speaking of GSL's ro8 but of ro8 in general.
What makes you think my criteria don't come before the players instead of being modeled towards the one I prefer like you say? Are you assuming I am especially fond of Innovation? I'm not, but he looks like a GOAT to me, just like Mvp and some unnamed one and unlike Maru, who's truly overrated in my opinion?
Do you honestly think Has or Mana could ever make a GSL ro8? These are players that made WCS finals in 2018. GSL ro8 is just as hard as making WCS finals. And for a WCS without Serral it's as hard as winning.
Do you honestly think InCa should have made it to a Code S final? Has was a WCS finalist by chanche while Mana, on the other hand, was beating top tier koreans in 2011-2012...
By the way, let's avoid to reignite this discussion; I know your opinion about WCS, you know mine, we discussed for months and nobody changed idea.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
I think one could be even more thorough and include other stuff as well, though it's also clear that at some point it becomes almost negligible unless both players are really close without it. I'd never include any online competition personally, the lack of importance makes this reasonable imo.
I am not saying this system is anywhere close to perfect, but it's a decent starting point even though i personally would change quite a few things (remember that i made it as charitable towards serral as possible without being completely ridiculous!)
So what i get from you is that you dislike the fact that a system like this gives more credit to players who have more results. I understand that Mvp had to retire and thus couldn't get as many, but that's just bad luck for him, i can only look at things which happened and not give him extra credit for things which maybe could have. So yes, players who played longer than him on a very high lvl might just overtake him in a goat ranking solely based on them having more time to get good results. I think that is also fairly reasonable.
The point is how important those good results are in a GOAT contest and where to make the cut; I don't think, personally, that ro8 is a high enough level to make prolonged consistency as relevant as it is in the system you proposed.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
And this comment is meant to discredit me? Rofl, it just drags you down in the korean elitist meme, thinking GSL ro8 are better than a WCS victory in 2018. Also, I was not speaking of GSL's ro8 but of ro8 in general.
What makes you think my criteria don't come before the players instead of being modeled towards the one I prefer like you say? Are you assuming I am especially fond of Innovation? I'm not, but he looks like a GOAT to me, just like Mvp and some unnamed one and unlike Maru, who's truly overrated in my opinion?
Do you honestly think Has or Mana could ever make a GSL ro8? These are players that made WCS finals in 2018. GSL ro8 is just as hard as making WCS finals. And for a WCS without Serral it's as hard as winning.
Do you honestly think InCa should have made it to a Code S final? Has was a WCS finalist by chanche while Mana, on the other hand, was beating top tier koreans in 2011-2012...
By the way, let's avoid to reignite this discussion; I know your opinion about WCS, you know mine, we discussed for months and nobody changed idea.
Top tier Koreans? MaNa also couldn't make it out of his Code S group, after qualifying
And let's not compare peak MaNa to a 2018 MaNa in the first place
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
And this comment is meant to discredit me? Rofl, it just drags you down in the korean elitist meme, thinking GSL ro8 are better than a WCS victory in 2018. Also, I was not speaking of GSL's ro8 but of ro8 in general.
What makes you think my criteria don't come before the players instead of being modeled towards the one I prefer like you say? Are you assuming I am especially fond of Innovation? I'm not, but he looks like a GOAT to me, just like Mvp and some unnamed one and unlike Maru, who's truly overrated in my opinion?
Do you honestly think Has or Mana could ever make a GSL ro8? These are players that made WCS finals in 2018. GSL ro8 is just as hard as making WCS finals. And for a WCS without Serral it's as hard as winning.
Do you honestly think InCa should have made it to a Code S final? Has was a WCS finalist by chanche while Mana, on the other hand, was beating top tier koreans in 2011-2012...
By the way, let's avoid to reignite this discussion; I know your opinion about WCS, you know mine, we discussed for months and nobody changed idea.
Top tier Koreans? MaNa also couldn't make it out of his Code S group, after qualifying
And let's not compare peak MaNa to a 2018 MaNa in the first place
Mc? HerO? MaNa was not top tier last year, but he cannot be compared to Has since he actually was a top foreigner once.
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