Welcome everyone, it's been a long time coming but after 3 month and 4 round of vote we are left with only 8 man in contention for the title of the greatest in the game.
For those who have missed the rest of the contest, have no idea what I'm talking about or just want and recap on what happen, you can go check out the main thread or the liquipedia page:
This time around we are gonna do one poll at the time, polls will open/close thursday night and Sunday night EST. Also, results and screen cap will be added to the first thread, for those who wishes to see the results after the fact.
With that said it's time to crown the Greatest Starcraft 2 player of all time!
Innovation for sure - what's the most prestigious tournament that Taeja has won? Dreamhack Winter - dude hasn't even been to the finals of a premier Korean tournament
Nestea about to get eliminated soon too. Not sure how he made top 10 when his last premier tournament win was summer 2011.
On one hand when TaeJa spends all his time watching K-drama he still wins tournaments unlike INno when he spends all his time on League of Legends. On the other there's the results. Voted for INnoVation and it isn't particularly close.
Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
The top 8 may have been influenced by bracket luck but other than Nestea I'd say all of the players there have a solid case for being the top 8 of all time. The only other one people tend to argue against is Zest despite the fact he is the most successful Protoss of all time, both in terms of number of wins and prestige of those wins.
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
The top 8 may have been influenced by bracket luck but other than Nestea I'd say all of the players there have a solid case for being the top 8 of all time. The only other one people tend to argue against is Zest despite the fact he is the most successful Protoss of all time, both in terms of number of wins and prestige of those wins.
Who has a problem with Zest? He is definitely top 8 lol. Its actually Taeja who should not be there, along with Nestea
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown.
soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay?
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
Serral and WCS aren't really that important in this discussion anyway, the main point is the disproportionate importance given to Code S in comparison to international successes; this leads to Maru being GOAT and soO top 8, something that numbers for sure cannot justify(and, for good consistency, TaeJa not being a top10 player...insane).
Oh i thought i was the only one who thought Taeja is peak Terran gameplay. His winrate against other players on this list does support that, he showed he's a better TvTer than Inno too. But if we take results into account i think Inno's are just better and i have to vote for him, even if i think Taeja at his peak was a (much) better player than Inno ever was.
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Actually, I rather think it was for racial representation that ppl voted for him or the gsl fetish did his work !
No, I mean Bomber's ability to win or be a threat to anyone until 2015, a period in which the skill level was so much better than the one which Nestea dominated. Actually, he didn't really dominate it, yes, he won a gsl without dropping a map :p but we all know what happened when he was facing mvp : a slaughter. And for a dominant player with a meta not totally settled, he didn't influence that much the zerg race.
Polt won a gsl with the same format as Nestea first one + a lot of overseas tournament with less competition but I doubt the level of difficulty of the first gsl was that high either. (+ somes of the koreans he faced were actually so much better than nestea's opponents, we all remembered the Inca disaster, a total clown fiesta, there is no other word, looking at the opponents he faced, it's not that impressive either...)
Moreover, I think even most of TL would agree you're overrating him a bit to much by stating Nestea is the second best player in wol. I mean, you can have this opinion but saying he is objectively above the bosstoss is far fetched. Even if you count only the results: he won 2 GSL and made a final at least and won countless oversea tournament with korean + he was the best of his race or one the absolute best for the whole WOL era while Nestea was not even top 3 zerg at any point of 2012. + He actually had heavely influence on the meta + had an impressive gameplay or at least inspiring (for other protoss) gameplay. The format may have (rightfully I'd say) prevented MC of this top 8 but he deserves it so much more than Nestea.
If you talk about multitask and influence, Nestea is not even the best zerg of wol, Leenock, DRG, Life obviously or even Stephano are clearly ahead and I think this criteria while being a bit subjective should matter more if you're talking about who's the greatest.
So yes, he won 3 gsl at the dawn of Starcraft 2, but for me, that doesn't make it, he lasted 6 more months than fruitdealer, that's good but not great.
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Actually, I rather think it was for racial representation that ppl voted for him or the gsl fetish did his work !
No, I mean Bomber's ability to win or be a threat to anyone until 2015, a period in which the skill level was so much better than the one which Nestea dominated. Actually, he didn't really dominate it, yes, he won a gsl without dropping a map :p but we all know what happened when he was facing mvp : a slaughter. And for a dominant player with a meta not totally settled, he didn't influence that much the zerg race. Polt won a gsl with the same format as Nestea first one + a lot of overseas tournament with less competition but I doubt the level of difficulty of the first gsl was that high either. (+ somes of the koreans he faced were actually so much better than nestea's opponents, we all remembered the Inca disaster, a total clown fiesta, there is no other word, looking at the opponents he faced, it's not that impressive either...)
Moreover, I think even most of TL would agree you're overrating him a bit to much by stating Nestea is the second best player in wol. I mean, you can have this opinion but saying he is objectively above the bosstoss is far fetched. Even if you count only the results: he won 2 GSL and made a final at least and won countless oversea tournament with korean + he was the best of his race or one the absolute best for the whole WOL era while Nestea was not even top 3 zerg at any point of 2012. + He actually had heavely influence on the meta + had an impressive gameplay or at least inspiring (for other protoss) gameplay. The format may have (rightfully I'd say) prevented MC of this top 8 but he deserves it so much more than Nestea. If you talk about multitask and influence, Nestea is not even the best zerg of wol, Leenock, DRG, Life obviously or even Stephano are clearly ahead and I think this criteria while being a bit subjective should matter more if you're talking about who's the greatest. So yes, he won 3 gsl at the dawn of Starcraft 2, but for me, that doesn't make it, he lasted 6 more months than fruitdealer, that's good but not great.
I'm sorry what? Nestea didn't influence the Zerg race much? That's a joke right?
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Actually, I rather think it was for racial representation that ppl voted for him or the gsl fetish did his work !
No, I mean Bomber's ability to win or be a threat to anyone until 2015, a period in which the skill level was so much better than the one which Nestea dominated. Actually, he didn't really dominate it, yes, he won a gsl without dropping a map :p but we all know what happened when he was facing mvp : a slaughter. And for a dominant player with a meta not totally settled, he didn't influence that much the zerg race. Polt won a gsl with the same format as Nestea first one + a lot of overseas tournament with less competition but I doubt the level of difficulty of the first gsl was that high either. (+ somes of the koreans he faced were actually so much better than nestea's opponents, we all remembered the Inca disaster, a total clown fiesta, there is no other word, looking at the opponents he faced, it's not that impressive either...)
Moreover, I think even most of TL would agree you're overrating him a bit to much by stating Nestea is the second best player in wol. I mean, you can have this opinion but saying he is objectively above the bosstoss is far fetched. Even if you count only the results: he won 2 GSL and made a final at least and won countless oversea tournament with korean + he was the best of his race or one the absolute best for the whole WOL era while Nestea was not even top 3 zerg at any point of 2012. + He actually had heavely influence on the meta + had an impressive gameplay or at least inspiring (for other protoss) gameplay. The format may have (rightfully I'd say) prevented MC of this top 8 but he deserves it so much more than Nestea. If you talk about multitask and influence, Nestea is not even the best zerg of wol, Leenock, DRG, Life obviously or even Stephano are clearly ahead and I think this criteria while being a bit subjective should matter more if you're talking about who's the greatest. So yes, he won 3 gsl at the dawn of Starcraft 2, but for me, that doesn't make it, he lasted 6 more months than fruitdealer, that's good but not great.
I'm sorry what? Nestea didn't influence the Zerg race much? That's a joke right?
Then, tell me how much he influenced it. I open to learn how he influenced the zerg race more than Stephano/DRG. Because when I ask this question, I always have this answer : By his heavely use of creep spread mechanics ? Nop By his use of infestors who derivated into BL/infest ? Neither Did he created the zergling/bane/muta composition like I read on TL before? No Did he create fast 3 hatch build (generally 14 pool then double expand) which became meta in zvp? No 12min/200pop ? Neither Did he create most of the safe build/play ? Actually maybe but FD was more like a piooner.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
Serral and WCS aren't really that important in this discussion anyway, the main point is the disproportionate importance given to Code S in comparison to international successes; this leads to Maru being GOAT and soO top 8, something that numbers for sure cannot justify(and, for good consistency, TaeJa not being a top10 player...insane).
Well being top 10 may also equal the GOAT, right? Depends on the criteria that you set. Keep in mind that even if he won 4 Blizzcon that is 4 years away, what if Inno wins 10 GSL during that period?
But that is pointless discussion. On the second note I kinda agree with you. Obviously Code S rightfully has the biggest value and I dont feel its not proportional (aside from Blizzcon), but Maru is far from the clear GOAT. He is at least on par with Inno. Personally, while I think that peak Maru > peak Inno, I rate Innovation higher just because of his consistency and longevity. And its no secret that I am a huge Maru fan. Even the fact that Inno almost every time crushes Maru like a bug when they play does not help Maru in this comparison.
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Actually, I rather think it was for racial representation that ppl voted for him or the gsl fetish did his work !
No, I mean Bomber's ability to win or be a threat to anyone until 2015, a period in which the skill level was so much better than the one which Nestea dominated. Actually, he didn't really dominate it, yes, he won a gsl without dropping a map :p but we all know what happened when he was facing mvp : a slaughter. And for a dominant player with a meta not totally settled, he didn't influence that much the zerg race. Polt won a gsl with the same format as Nestea first one + a lot of overseas tournament with less competition but I doubt the level of difficulty of the first gsl was that high either. (+ somes of the koreans he faced were actually so much better than nestea's opponents, we all remembered the Inca disaster, a total clown fiesta, there is no other word, looking at the opponents he faced, it's not that impressive either...)
Moreover, I think even most of TL would agree you're overrating him a bit to much by stating Nestea is the second best player in wol. I mean, you can have this opinion but saying he is objectively above the bosstoss is far fetched. Even if you count only the results: he won 2 GSL and made a final at least and won countless oversea tournament with korean + he was the best of his race or one the absolute best for the whole WOL era while Nestea was not even top 3 zerg at any point of 2012. + He actually had heavely influence on the meta + had an impressive gameplay or at least inspiring (for other protoss) gameplay. The format may have (rightfully I'd say) prevented MC of this top 8 but he deserves it so much more than Nestea. If you talk about multitask and influence, Nestea is not even the best zerg of wol, Leenock, DRG, Life obviously or even Stephano are clearly ahead and I think this criteria while being a bit subjective should matter more if you're talking about who's the greatest. So yes, he won 3 gsl at the dawn of Starcraft 2, but for me, that doesn't make it, he lasted 6 more months than fruitdealer, that's good but not great.
I'm sorry what? Nestea didn't influence the Zerg race much? That's a joke right?
Then, tell me how much he influenced it. I open to learn how he influenced the zerg race more than Stephano/DRG. Because when I ask this question, I always have this answer : By his heavely use of creep spread mechanics ? Nop By his use of infestors who derivated into BL/infest ? Neither Did he created the zergling/bane/muta composition like I read on TL before? No Did he create fast 3 hatch build (generally 14 pool then double expand) which became meta in zvp? No 12min/200pop ? Neither Did he create most of the safe build/play ? Actually maybe but FD was more like a piooner.
Albeit his influence isn't as obvious nowadays as it used to be. However, this was taken from his greatest players of all time article and you might find it useful.
Nestea is the only player who can say he innovated his race the way Mvp did his. (The only zerg players close to his influence are Stephano, whose builds all get nerfed into the ground, and Life.) Everything we know as the basic fundamentals almost all come from him and the way he played and looked at the game. Like all great men of thought, Nestea was a better innovator in a time when his race was weakest. The closest analogy to the weakness of zerg is the Blink Era for terran. Not only did the other races have strong early aggressive options while zerg had to fight with a 3 range queen, but the maps were tiny. Most of the maps from the early days are a quarter or at best half the size of the current map pool. Nestea had to fend off 11/11 rushes in distances shorter than the main base on Alterzim. With 3 range queens.
Nestea was generally a macro zerg that liked to scout what his opponents were doing and react to what builds or unit comps they were going for. He was famous for his muta ling/bling and had incredible muta micro—though he did have the tendency to fall asleep on them. In terms of APM he was always on the lower side, but he made sure to inject his larvae (one of the few early zergs to understand just how important that was). He also popularized droning to the 80-90+ mark and then constantly recycling an infinite amount of lings and banelings to crush his opponents.
In ZvZ he was instrumental in finding every build opener, every permutation of build, how to react to each build, how to transition, the compositions you could use in the early mid and late game. He used roaches, roach bane, roach hydra infestor and muta ling bling. The only matchup he wasn’t as influential in was ZvP (Stephano’s builds and compositions are still very much in use today), but he trademarked the infinite spine forest into mass mutalisk base trades that have given protoss players nightmares since the beginning of time.
Beyond that he also created numerous one off builds including the creep spine crawler rush, proxy hatch against terran (to creep the third and deny it from going down forever), and the lair roach bane overlord creep spore rush (which he used once in a Chinese major tournament and was copied a week later by Leenock who thanked him for the build).
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
Serral and WCS aren't really that important in this discussion anyway, the main point is the disproportionate importance given to Code S in comparison to international successes; this leads to Maru being GOAT and soO top 8, something that numbers for sure cannot justify(and, for good consistency, TaeJa not being a top10 player...insane).
It's understandable that you have such a notion, you joined very late, when sc2 had already deteriorated, after it had gone from an absolute main stream game to a small indie game, but during all these years winning a single GSL was way harder than winning 5 foreign only tournaments back to back, the competition was that tough.
It's understandable that you have such a notion, you joined very late, when sc2 had already deteriorated, after it had gone from an absolute main stream game to a small indie game, but during all these years winning a single GSL was way harder than winning 5 foreign only tournaments back to back, the competition was that tough.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
Serral and WCS aren't really that important in this discussion anyway, the main point is the disproportionate importance given to Code S in comparison to international successes; this leads to Maru being GOAT and soO top 8, something that numbers for sure cannot justify(and, for good consistency, TaeJa not being a top10 player...insane).
It's understandable that you have such a notion, you joined very late, when sc2 had already deteriorated, after it had gone from an absolute main stream game to a small indie game, but during all these years winning a single GSL was way harder than winning 5 foreign only tournaments back to back, the competition was that tough.
In reality, I played Sc2 in beta and WoL and, despite having already quit the game, I followed the pro scene until 2013. After that, I occasionally watched the most important tournaments(mainly BlizzCon) until my interest in the game was renewed with LoTV; in 2018, I came back and eventually decided to make a TL account in the wake of Serral's victory. What I missed, I studied it or rewatched it once I started watching sc2 again.
There was indeed a time in which what you say was close to the truth, and it was during HoTS; it wasn't the case in WoL, and it definitely isn't the case in LoTV; In 2015, especially, Code S was incredibly stacked in comparison to WCS that had few korean lefts(most likely not true GSL contenders; sorry, Polt and Hydra).
I don't agree on the fact sc2 has deteriorated, foreign scene is healthy and arguably stronger than ever, if only for the presence of a player of the caliber of Serral(but the gap was at its minimum in 2018, probably); Korean sc2 scene is on a clock and has lost depth to the point Code A is a joke in comparison to what it used to be in the past(most notably in WoL as well when players of the caliber of Mvp were sent to the lower league on a regular basis), but its champs didn't magically become weaker and ro16/ro8 usually present a lineup worth of any era.
The distance between GSL and WCS is obviously still there, but while the first hasn't gone up, the level of the second has improved(yes, even when compared to the times when tier two koreans or champs past their primes were dominating it) and it is just not meaningless anymore when we speak of achievements.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
sOs has 2 Blizzcon titles and 1 IEM Katowice title which is equivalent to Blizzcon and his other achievements are easily worth a 4th Blizzcon title and he isn't considered the GOAT. But I guess he doesn't have the foreigner bonus.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
sOs has 2 Blizzcon titles and 1 IEM Katowice title which is equivalent to Blizzcon and his other achievements are easily worth a 4th Blizzcon title and he isn't considered the GOAT. But I guess he doesn't have the foreigner bonus.
MSI Arena and Hot6ix Cup comparable to BlizzCon? Not really. Not to mention that old IEM format wasn't the one we consider of the same tier of BlizzCon, I didn't see you saying MC won World Championship since he triumphed in Hanover in 2012.
And probably I wasn't clear enough, "someone" stood for "Serral" here, it's not like winning four BlizzCon authomatically makes you the GOAT, you need other titles.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown.
soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay?
I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place.
I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO.
I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown.
soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay?
I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place.
I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO.
I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind.
Serral being 9th or 35th depends of how much do you rate WCS, it's impossible to reach a consensus on that. 70% of the voters on the main page poll think Serral was the best Zerg in LoTV, way ahead of Dark and Rogue against whom, in this thread, barely managed to advance; here, there are those who think even soO achieved more than Serral in LoTV(lol).
Inno is significantly ahead of Maru in terms of achievements(both won 3 Code S, a SSL and a WESG, it's pretty easy to compare what's left). Only the fact Code S has this divine aura to your eyes can turn the table in favour of Maru but the 4peat is way easier now than it could have been in HoTS. Actually, he is not even top 3 to my eyes in a GOAT list(he would be in this one, tho, since someone is missing).
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown.
soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay?
I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place.
I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO.
I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind.
Serral being 9th or 35th depends of how much do you rate WCS, it's impossible to reach a consensus on that. 70% of the voters on the main page poll thinks Serral was the best Zerg in LoTV, way ahead of Dark and Rogue against whom, in this thread, barely managed to advance; here, there are those who think even soO achieved more than Serral in LoTV(lol).
Inno is significantly ahead of Maru in terms of achievements(both won 3 Code S, a SSL and a WESG, it's pretty easy to compare what's left). Only the fact Code S has this divine aura to your eyes can turn the table in favour of Maru but the 4peat is way easier now than it could have been in HoTS. Actually, he is not even top 3 to my eyes in a GOAT list(he would be in this one, tho, since someone is missing).
Personally I would still say that Maru has consistency on his side (strangely cause INno is one of the most consistent player ever) on average he has done a bit better in code S with less time in code A, at least since 2013, and overall I feel like he has less "off showing" than INno. Of course it help that Maru plays in way less tournament and played a lot less match up where he was favor, ence loss less of them (And of course won fewers but is his own damn fault and hurt his case, at least as much as TaeJa not playing in GSL)
With all that sais INno has a 6% over him in match win rate, which ia crazy, so maybe not.
Still think INno is greater right now, but we should have a few more days to think about it.
INno is also #1 at Aligulac Hall of Fame for having a long period of dominance. He's my GOAT quite easily, Maru comes after him though. And then probably Mvp. Terrans did quite well in Korea. >.<
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown.
soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay?
I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place.
I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO.
I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind.
Serral being 9th or 35th depends of how much do you rate WCS, it's impossible to reach a consensus on that. 70% of the voters on the main page poll thinks Serral was the best Zerg in LoTV, way ahead of Dark and Rogue against whom, in this thread, barely managed to advance; here, there are those who think even soO achieved more than Serral in LoTV(lol).
Inno is significantly ahead of Maru in terms of achievements(both won 3 Code S, a SSL and a WESG, it's pretty easy to compare what's left). Only the fact Code S has this divine aura to your eyes can turn the table in favour of Maru but the 4peat is way easier now than it could have been in HoTS. Actually, he is not even top 3 to my eyes in a GOAT list(he would be in this one, tho, since someone is missing).
i think Serral was the greatest LotV zerg before Dark won GSL. Now I think it's Dark (I can go over that if necessary). Still I would say Serral is probably 5th greatest LotV player. Also, I think Serral is more popular among foreigners so he does a lot better in polling. That was why he narrowly lost to Classic and got a decent amount of votes compared to Rain. He is not far from them but I bet if he was Korean, the polling would be more lopsided against him (not that that is possible to show anyway). That's also why 35% of people thought Scarlett was greater player than herO and why ByuL was somehow seen as less great than Scarlett or HuK.
Inno is one of my favourite players but if you compare him to Maru, they both share 3 GSL, SSL, GSL semi and a WESG so if we remove those from equation, Inno has 2 iEM, GSL vs World, WCS Season 1 while Maru has another GSL and OSL. I didn't add up semis and finals because they both have a lot of those but if I did, I'm pretty sure it would help Maru since he has a lot more semifinals than Inno (including 4 GSL semis). I think Inno wins out slightly against Maru in terms of achievements but the difference is not significant at all.
Edit: Also I definitely think it's insane to put Serral at 35th place. Even if you removed his WCS Circuit wins that's silly. However, I've always felt that winning a WCS Circuit is like close to as impressive as a GSL semifinal (maybe closer to GSL ro8 if you are Serral unfortunately since you cannot play against yourself).
The fact is that the foreigners have caught up but if you look at the top foreigner vs Korean tournaments, top Koreans are still heavily favoured in map score against top foreigners not named Serral so there is still a real gap. Without Serral in GSL vs the World, the top Korean vs top Foreigner (excluding Chinese players) score is 18-5 (13-5 without team match) in 2018 and 25-13 (19-12 without team match) in 2017 (I included Serral for 2017). 28-9 in Blizzcon 2018, 26-14 in Blizzcon 2017, 26-16 in Blizzcon 2016, 11-17 in KesPa cup 2016.
Innovation probably is the GOAT, but similar to his playstyle and persona, he's a very unflashy GOAT. It really feels like he's quietly accumulated a GOAT-worthy resume, but I don't recall as many dramatic moments for him as some other players.
Mvp: Ridiculous Game 7 11/11 rax comeback against Squirtle Maru: Ridiculous 4 GSL win streak
For Innovation, his most dominant period (2013) was somewhat underwhelming, as he got reverse swept by SoulKey in the GSL finals
Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
The people who are most dismissive of Serral's achievements are also to some extent similarly dismissive of TaeJa's achievements, so I don't think this is a good argument.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
On July 06 2019 07:42 Bagration wrote: Innovation probably is the GOAT, but similar to his playstyle and persona, he's a very unflashy GOAT. It really feels like he's quietly accumulated a GOAT-worthy resume, but I don't recall as many dramatic moments for him as some other players.
Mvp: Ridiculous Game 7 11/11 rax comeback against Squirtle Maru: Ridiculous 4 GSL win streak
For Innovation, his most dominant period (2013) was somewhat underwhelming, as he got reverse swept by SoulKey in the GSL finals
saw that game again and now i feel bad for Squirtle lol. If he just stayed on to top of his ramp...
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown.
soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay?
I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place.
I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO.
I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind.
Serral being 9th or 35th depends of how much do you rate WCS, it's impossible to reach a consensus on that. 70% of the voters on the main page poll thinks Serral was the best Zerg in LoTV, way ahead of Dark and Rogue against whom, in this thread, barely managed to advance; here, there are those who think even soO achieved more than Serral in LoTV(lol).
Inno is significantly ahead of Maru in terms of achievements(both won 3 Code S, a SSL and a WESG, it's pretty easy to compare what's left). Only the fact Code S has this divine aura to your eyes can turn the table in favour of Maru but the 4peat is way easier now than it could have been in HoTS. Actually, he is not even top 3 to my eyes in a GOAT list(he would be in this one, tho, since someone is missing).
i think Serral was the greatest LotV zerg before Dark won GSL. Now I think it's Dark (I can go over that if necessary). Still I would say Serral is probably 5th greatest LotV player. Also, I think Serral is more popular among foreigners so he does a lot better in polling. That was why he narrowly lost to Classic and got a decent amount of votes compared to Rain. He is not far from them but I bet if he was Korean, the polling would be more lopsided against him (not that that is possible to show anyway). That's also why 35% of people thought Scarlett was greater player than herO and why ByuL was somehow seen as less great than Scarlett or HuK.
Inno is one of my favourite players but if you compare him to Maru, they both share 3 GSL, SSL, GSL semi and a WESG so if we remove those from equation, Inno has 2 iEM, GSL vs World, WCS Season 1 while Maru has another GSL and OSL. I didn't add up semis and finals because they both have a lot of those but if I did, I'm pretty sure it would help Maru since he has a lot more semifinals than Inno (including 4 GSL semis). I think Inno wins out slightly against Maru in terms of achievements but the difference is not significant at all.
Edit: Also I definitely think it's insane to put Serral at 35th place. Even if you removed his WCS Circuit wins that's silly. However, I've always felt that winning a WCS Circuit is like close to as impressive as a GSL semifinal (maybe closer to GSL ro8 if you are Serral unfortunately since you cannot play against yourself).
The fact is that the foreigners have caught up but if you look at the top foreigner vs Korean tournaments, top Koreans are still heavily favoured in map score against top foreigners not named Serral so there is still a real gap. Without Serral in GSL vs the World, the top Korean vs top Foreigner (excluding Chinese players) score is 18-5 (13-5 without team match) in 2018 and 25-13 (19-12 without team match) in 2017 (I included Serral for 2017). 28-9 in Blizzcon 2018, 26-14 in Blizzcon 2017, 26-16 in Blizzcon 2016, 11-17 in KesPa cup 2016.
There is no doubt the gap still exists, I never said the opposite. Serral being favored over Dark(and Huk over Byul), unlike Scarlett vs herO, does not show foreigner bias but simply weighting many titles(or some relevant one) against few(or none at all); 35th place was ficticious yet plausible, you just have to ask the right people.
Inno has six Premier semifinals, Maru has nine, not enough to compensate. If you take a look at Major victories Inno is very much ahead, Maru's record is slightly better in Proleague but Inno had better results in any other teamleague.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown.
soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay?
I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place.
I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO.
I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind.
Serral being 9th or 35th depends of how much do you rate WCS, it's impossible to reach a consensus on that. 70% of the voters on the main page poll thinks Serral was the best Zerg in LoTV, way ahead of Dark and Rogue against whom, in this thread, barely managed to advance; here, there are those who think even soO achieved more than Serral in LoTV(lol).
Inno is significantly ahead of Maru in terms of achievements(both won 3 Code S, a SSL and a WESG, it's pretty easy to compare what's left). Only the fact Code S has this divine aura to your eyes can turn the table in favour of Maru but the 4peat is way easier now than it could have been in HoTS. Actually, he is not even top 3 to my eyes in a GOAT list(he would be in this one, tho, since someone is missing).
i think Serral was the greatest LotV zerg before Dark won GSL. Now I think it's Dark (I can go over that if necessary). Still I would say Serral is probably 5th greatest LotV player. Also, I think Serral is more popular among foreigners so he does a lot better in polling. That was why he narrowly lost to Classic and got a decent amount of votes compared to Rain. He is not far from them but I bet if he was Korean, the polling would be more lopsided against him (not that that is possible to show anyway). That's also why 35% of people thought Scarlett was greater player than herO and why ByuL was somehow seen as less great than Scarlett or HuK.
Inno is one of my favourite players but if you compare him to Maru, they both share 3 GSL, SSL, GSL semi and a WESG so if we remove those from equation, Inno has 2 iEM, GSL vs World, WCS Season 1 while Maru has another GSL and OSL. I didn't add up semis and finals because they both have a lot of those but if I did, I'm pretty sure it would help Maru since he has a lot more semifinals than Inno (including 4 GSL semis). I think Inno wins out slightly against Maru in terms of achievements but the difference is not significant at all.
Edit: Also I definitely think it's insane to put Serral at 35th place. Even if you removed his WCS Circuit wins that's silly. However, I've always felt that winning a WCS Circuit is like close to as impressive as a GSL semifinal (maybe closer to GSL ro8 if you are Serral unfortunately since you cannot play against yourself).
The fact is that the foreigners have caught up but if you look at the top foreigner vs Korean tournaments, top Koreans are still heavily favoured in map score against top foreigners not named Serral so there is still a real gap. Without Serral in GSL vs the World, the top Korean vs top Foreigner (excluding Chinese players) score is 18-5 (13-5 without team match) in 2018 and 25-13 (19-12 without team match) in 2017 (I included Serral for 2017). 28-9 in Blizzcon 2018, 26-14 in Blizzcon 2017, 26-16 in Blizzcon 2016, 11-17 in KesPa cup 2016.
There is no doubt the gap still exists, I never said the opposite. Serral being favored over Dark(and Huk over Byul), unlike Scarlett vs herO, does not show foreigner bias but simply weighting many titles(or some relevant one) against few(or none at all); 35th place was ficticious yet plausible, you just have to ask the right people.
Inno has six Premier semifinals, Maru has nine, not enough to compensate. If you take a look at Major victories Inno is very much ahead, Maru's record is slightly better in Proleague but Inno had better results in any other teamleague.
i only mentioned gap to support my opinion that while WCS Circuit is impressive win, it is not really on the same level as an IEM or Super tournament. Some people consider it not far off from GSL in difficulty while some think that it is worth nothing so I would position myself somewhere in between (probably closer to your side tbh than the other).
I didn't watch SC2 WoL era so I probably was underselling HuK but I think you also agree that Scarlett vs herO shows clear foreigner bias imo.
Lastly, I still maintain that although GSL and OSL is worth less than 2 IEM, GSL vs the World and WCS Season 1, it is not enough to convincingly show that Inno has significant lead on Maru in achievements. It'd be cool if Inno won this contest but if I'm going to be honest to myself, I think Maru beats him for GOAT by a hair.
I was a little sad to have to pull the lever for INnoVation over Taeja in Ro8 when he would have a great case vs Zest, Nestea, or Stats. As you can see from some of these posts, Taeja is still very popular despite a little time elapsing from his dominant era, and his outside of Korea accomplishments gave him a wider audience.
On the other hand, there has been plenty of bad bracket luck, but to avoid it you'd have to do all sorts of pre-seeding and re-seeding, or like group round-robins, and that turns this unscientific fun poll into something it is not. It clearly is stirring some intense passions already in the comments.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Part of it was witnessing the sheer spectacle of domination. You joined this forum in 2016, so not I'm sure if you were an avid SC2 watcher during TaeJa's heyday. Serral does have fantastic accomplishments in a short amount of time, but many of his wins were a hair's breadth away from not happening (lots of match point deciders). TaeJa was (and still is) the only player after Nestea to win a premeir tournament without dropping a map. He also hard-carried Team Liquid through team leagues. He racked up a ridiculous 23-3 map score in IPL TAC 3, and not only against foreigners. He frequently team-killed the best Korea had to offer including a team kill of the strongest team (Incredible Miracle) in the grand finals. With TaeJa, it wasn't *just* the number of tournaments he won, it was about how hard he pooped on his opponents while doing so. It's hard to describe if you're just looking at results in liquipedia.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
TaeJa at his peak had a way harder field to navigate than today. And he still came out on top for the majority of head to heads. That he didn't stay in Korea and play (despite being pretty damn good at the time anyway), really shouldn't detract from what he accomplished. If TaeJa's only blemish is that he didn't play in Korea, but still won vs the best Korea had to offer when they did meet, then I don't see how you can argue against him vs Serral or a lot of players. That map he and Innovation played on New Kirk alone is GOAT status. Not to mention his comeback vs Zest or Life.
Edit: When you finally return to Korea and literally every player wants to play you, that says a lot.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Part of it was witnessing the sheer spectacle of domination. You joined this forum in 2016, so not I'm sure if you were an avid SC2 watcher during TaeJa's heyday. Serral does have fantastic accomplishments in a short amount of time, but many of his wins were a hair's breadth away from not happening (lots of match point deciders). TaeJa was (and still is) the only player after Nestea to win a premeir tournament without dropping a map. He also hard-carried Team Liquid through team leagues. He racked up a ridiculous 23-3 map score in IPL TAC 3, and not only against foreigners. He frequently team-killed the best Korea had to offer including a team kill of the strongest team (Incredible Miracle) in the grand finals. With TaeJa, it wasn't *just* the number of tournaments he won, it was about how hard he pooped on his opponents while doing so. It's hard to describe if you're just looking at results in liquipedia.
Fair I guess you do have a good point. also My first account was in 2013 but I switched to this account, I have been a fan since 2011
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Part of it was witnessing the sheer spectacle of domination. You joined this forum in 2016, so not I'm sure if you were an avid SC2 watcher during TaeJa's heyday. Serral does have fantastic accomplishments in a short amount of time, but many of his wins were a hair's breadth away from not happening (lots of match point deciders). TaeJa was (and still is) the only player after Nestea to win a premeir tournament without dropping a map. He also hard-carried Team Liquid through team leagues. He racked up a ridiculous 23-3 map score in IPL TAC 3, and not only against foreigners. He frequently team-killed the best Korea had to offer including a team kill of the strongest team (Incredible Miracle) in the grand finals. With TaeJa, it wasn't *just* the number of tournaments he won, it was about how hard he pooped on his opponents while doing so. It's hard to describe if you're just looking at results in liquipedia.
Fair point I guess you do have a good point. also My first account was in 2013 but I switched to this account, I have been a fan since 2011
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
TaeJa didn't win WCS because, boiling it down, he just wasn't motivated. He's literally glided through most of his matches on pure skill alone. Look at any of his toughest matches and he's faced with arguably the best of the best at that given time. Fun fact, when TaeJa was knocked out of tournaments, that player went on to win the whole thing. TaeJa was the goal everyone strived to beat in tournaments.
IEM, Blizzcon, WCS, GSL. You name it. When that player beat TaeJa they won the tournament.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
Taeja's inability to win WCS America even once is actually a huge negative on his GOAT claim. It's one thing not to be able to win GSL, but WCS America was much less stacked with talent. For a top Korean, the Ro32 and Ro16 was basically steamroll over some EZ NA talent, and basically an 8 player tournament.
Now, no one questions that the guy was an otherworldly talent - but he was reliant on his fundamental skills and talent, which works great in weekender tournaments where you don't prepare for a specific opponent. But in the GSL, and in WCS America, where you prepared for opponents round by round, map by map, that's where Taeja's strengths could be neutralized.
The other issue, which is entirely not Taeja's fault, is that a long portion of his peak was during BL-Infestor. It's an absolute atrocity that players like Sniper and RoRo have a GSL championship and players like Taeja who had to be 2x better didn't
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
Taeja's inability to win WCS America even once is actually a huge negative on his GOAT claim. It's one thing not to be able to win GSL, but WCS America was much less stacked with talent. For a top Korean, the Ro32 and Ro16 was basically steamroll over some EZ NA talent, and basically an 8 player tournament.
Now, no one questions that the guy was an otherworldly talent - but he was reliant on his fundamental skills and talent, which works great in weekender tournaments where you don't prepare for a specific opponent. But in the GSL, and in WCS America, where you prepared for opponents round by round, map by map, that's where Taeja's strengths could be neutralized.
The other issue, which is entirely not Taeja's fault, is that a long portion of his peak was during BL-Infestor. It's an absolute atrocity that players like Sniper and RoRo have a GSL championship and players like Taeja who had to be 2x better didn't
Wait what? I thought his peak was in Heart of The Swarm.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
Taeja's inability to win WCS America even once is actually a huge negative on his GOAT claim. It's one thing not to be able to win GSL, but WCS America was much less stacked with talent. For a top Korean, the Ro32 and Ro16 was basically steamroll over some EZ NA talent, and basically an 8 player tournament.
Now, no one questions that the guy was an otherworldly talent - but he was reliant on his fundamental skills and talent, which works great in weekender tournaments where you don't prepare for a specific opponent. But in the GSL, and in WCS America, where you prepared for opponents round by round, map by map, that's where Taeja's strengths could be neutralized.
The other issue, which is entirely not Taeja's fault, is that a long portion of his peak was during BL-Infestor. It's an absolute atrocity that players like Sniper and RoRo have a GSL championship and players like Taeja who had to be 2x better didn't
Wait what? I thought his peak was in Heart of The Swarm.
Inno and Maru were somewhat on his level in 2013 and 2014,i think he was better than both, for instance he was the only Terran to win tournaments from november 2013 to july 2014(and he won 3).But in 2012 he was winning teamleagues solo playing a shit race against broodlord/infestor.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
Taeja's inability to win WCS America even once is actually a huge negative on his GOAT claim. It's one thing not to be able to win GSL, but WCS America was much less stacked with talent. For a top Korean, the Ro32 and Ro16 was basically steamroll over some EZ NA talent, and basically an 8 player tournament.
Now, no one questions that the guy was an otherworldly talent - but he was reliant on his fundamental skills and talent, which works great in weekender tournaments where you don't prepare for a specific opponent. But in the GSL, and in WCS America, where you prepared for opponents round by round, map by map, that's where Taeja's strengths could be neutralized.
The other issue, which is entirely not Taeja's fault, is that a long portion of his peak was during BL-Infestor. It's an absolute atrocity that players like Sniper and RoRo have a GSL championship and players like Taeja who had to be 2x better didn't
Wait what? I thought his peak was in Heart of The Swarm.
I recall Taeja really burst onto the scene in the summer of 2012, when he went nuts in the IPL Teamleague and carried Liquid (IIRC, that was when the "summer of Taeja began). Unfortunately, May 2012 was also when Blizzard stupidly introduced faster overlords AND +2 range for queens. While Taeja's peak continued into HotS - for nearly a year that he was dominant in WoL, I think he lost a lot of opportunities to shine due to gross Zerg imbalance.
So to answer your question - his peak started in summer 2012 and continued well into HotS until about 2014
On an unrelated note, Taeja's period of dominance really doesn't seem that long in retrospect now. He won his first premier in July 2012, and his final premier in July 2014. He hasn't placed top 4 in any Premier since November 2019, nearly 5 years now. He was really really productive in racking up wins in a relatively short period
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Actually, I rather think it was for racial representation that ppl voted for him or the gsl fetish did his work !
No, I mean Bomber's ability to win or be a threat to anyone until 2015, a period in which the skill level was so much better than the one which Nestea dominated. Actually, he didn't really dominate it, yes, he won a gsl without dropping a map :p but we all know what happened when he was facing mvp : a slaughter. And for a dominant player with a meta not totally settled, he didn't influence that much the zerg race. Polt won a gsl with the same format as Nestea first one + a lot of overseas tournament with less competition but I doubt the level of difficulty of the first gsl was that high either. (+ somes of the koreans he faced were actually so much better than nestea's opponents, we all remembered the Inca disaster, a total clown fiesta, there is no other word, looking at the opponents he faced, it's not that impressive either...)
Moreover, I think even most of TL would agree you're overrating him a bit to much by stating Nestea is the second best player in wol. I mean, you can have this opinion but saying he is objectively above the bosstoss is far fetched. Even if you count only the results: he won 2 GSL and made a final at least and won countless oversea tournament with korean + he was the best of his race or one the absolute best for the whole WOL era while Nestea was not even top 3 zerg at any point of 2012. + He actually had heavely influence on the meta + had an impressive gameplay or at least inspiring (for other protoss) gameplay. The format may have (rightfully I'd say) prevented MC of this top 8 but he deserves it so much more than Nestea. If you talk about multitask and influence, Nestea is not even the best zerg of wol, Leenock, DRG, Life obviously or even Stephano are clearly ahead and I think this criteria while being a bit subjective should matter more if you're talking about who's the greatest. So yes, he won 3 gsl at the dawn of Starcraft 2, but for me, that doesn't make it, he lasted 6 more months than fruitdealer, that's good but not great.
I'm sorry what? Nestea didn't influence the Zerg race much? That's a joke right?
Then, tell me how much he influenced it. I open to learn how he influenced the zerg race more than Stephano/DRG. Because when I ask this question, I always have this answer : By his heavely use of creep spread mechanics ? Nop By his use of infestors who derivated into BL/infest ? Neither Did he created the zergling/bane/muta composition like I read on TL before? No Did he create fast 3 hatch build (generally 14 pool then double expand) which became meta in zvp? No 12min/200pop ? Neither Did he create most of the safe build/play ? Actually maybe but FD was more like a piooner.
Albeit his influence isn't as obvious nowadays as it used to be. However, this was taken from his greatest players of all time article and you might find it useful.
Nestea is the only player who can say he innovated his race the way Mvp did his. (The only zerg players close to his influence are Stephano, whose builds all get nerfed into the ground, and Life.) Everything we know as the basic fundamentals almost all come from him and the way he played and looked at the game. Like all great men of thought, Nestea was a better innovator in a time when his race was weakest. The closest analogy to the weakness of zerg is the Blink Era for terran. Not only did the other races have strong early aggressive options while zerg had to fight with a 3 range queen, but the maps were tiny. Most of the maps from the early days are a quarter or at best half the size of the current map pool. Nestea had to fend off 11/11 rushes in distances shorter than the main base on Alterzim. With 3 range queens.
Nestea was generally a macro zerg that liked to scout what his opponents were doing and react to what builds or unit comps they were going for. He was famous for his muta ling/bling and had incredible muta micro—though he did have the tendency to fall asleep on them. In terms of APM he was always on the lower side, but he made sure to inject his larvae (one of the few early zergs to understand just how important that was). He also popularized droning to the 80-90+ mark and then constantly recycling an infinite amount of lings and banelings to crush his opponents.
In ZvZ he was instrumental in finding every build opener, every permutation of build, how to react to each build, how to transition, the compositions you could use in the early mid and late game. He used roaches, roach bane, roach hydra infestor and muta ling bling. The only matchup he wasn’t as influential in was ZvP (Stephano’s builds and compositions are still very much in use today), but he trademarked the infinite spine forest into mass mutalisk base trades that have given protoss players nightmares since the beginning of time.
Beyond that he also created numerous one off builds including the creep spine crawler rush, proxy hatch against terran (to creep the third and deny it from going down forever), and the lair roach bane overlord creep spore rush (which he used once in a Chinese major tournament and was copied a week later by Leenock who thanked him for the build).
Oh okok, I think we are a bit too far away of the subject. Anyway, I remember this article as well (note : nestea is actually behind Polt), while I agree on most of the list and criteria, I always find this particular part very vague and overhype. I was really surprised.
Stuchiu talks about fundamentals but apart from a few builds (not sure if he is the inventor of proxy hatch btw) and the 80-90 drones stuff, there is no invention of durable composition or a new approach of the game. At best,he rafined along other players a lot of build especially in zvz, it's great but he didn't change the way zerg was played or perceived as stephano, drg, those two basically invented the 14 pool 3bases play with a flood of low tech unit which solved a most of early toss agression (a big problem at the time) and was still easy to transition ,Seal/Scarlett and the others who heavely emphazised on creep spread or Life with his agressive approach which even challenged the hellion play did. These changes are more concrete and still have a lot of influence today, Fruitdealer actually with his succession of very commit cheese and greedy play has been copied a lot too.
Nestea is not the first reactionnary zerg, Idra and Fd had already this approach during the beta and I am not sure about the larva mechanics either, every zergs were aware of its importance at the time, way more than creep spead (because spreading creep in this era was really painful to apply, the advantage was not as evident and rewarding), maybe he emphazed more on it but he didn't strike as the mechanically monster who had perfect inject at the time, quite the contrary, he was praised for his game sense and perfect reaction in contrary to Idra. (Which doesn't mean he created it, like Squitle is credited for the 2base immortal push in wol but Parting is the king of the soul train)
I think people here made a solid case for Taeja, I would never put him past 10th, but if you consider the circumstances of his achievemennts, he deserves the recognition.
Also, I would argue that consistency is more important than peak performance. Of coures both play a role in the goat discussion but consitency should be a bit more important imo
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Neither player is even remotely close to GOAT. Both are barely top 20 players (Taeja maybe closer to top 15). But Taeja has TL bias and Serral has foreigner bias and the most deluded fanboys.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Neither player is even remotely close to GOAT. Both are barely top 20 players (Taeja maybe closer to top 15). But Taeja has TL bias and Serral has foreigner bias and the most deluded fanboys.
Please try to post constructively. Your opinion is fine to have but you can't call others deluded for their views that they are entitled to.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
InnoVation and Maru are clearly top 2 in the GOAT race (by far) given their peak skills, premier tournament wins (over top Korean), longetivity (they rose in the highest skill era, not MVP's WOL nor this current period of LOTV), though o would vote Inno as GOAT because of Maru has been having team advantage for so long. Honestly, argueing anyone else as GOAT beside these two guys is absolutely insane and irrationale.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
A Scarlett or a Snute (or even a Major himself) could have been able to get a Blizzcon round of 4 in Hots if they had to 1 or two matches vs a top Koreans, it is the law of probability at some point foreigner today have more shot against top Korean and fewers matches against lower rank Koreans.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
Aside Serral, I can definitely see tier-3 Korean like Alive, Cure beating any foreigner.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
Aside Serral, I can definitely see tier-3 Korean like Alive, Cure beating any foreigner.
I think Neeb, Special and Reynor are definitely favored over that calibre Korean player. And probably even the next rank of foreigners like Scarlett, HeroMarine, Showtime, TIME, Harstem or Drogo as well.
Hum, maybe foreigner are a bit better than they were, I still don't think it's a big margin in any case, most of the (real) B teamer korean have retired anyway so it's hard to tell.
In any case I think anyone would take a bracket with Reynor, Heromarine, Lambo and Showtime over one with HyuN, Bomber, San, MC and Jaedong which was the original point, the wcs circuit was way harder during TaeJa time than Serrral, so even if he didin't dominate has hard, I still think the number of victory he had is more impressive.
On July 08 2019 00:46 Nakajin wrote: Hum, maybe foreigner are a bit better than they were, I still don't think it's a big margin in any case, most of the (real) B teamer korean have retired anyway so it's hard to tell.
In any case I think anyone would take a bracket with Reynor, Heromarine, Lambo and Showtime over one with HyuN, Bomber, San, MC and Jaedong which was the original point, the wcs circuit was way harder during TaeJa time than Serrral, so even if he didin't dominate has hard, I still think the number of victory he had is more impressive.
The WCS Circuit was split in half, a similar bracket could be possible in Dreamhack events where there were scarier players than these ones, like Life or Inno. Back in 2013, how menacing were the players of WCS NA for a top tier korean? Maybe one could look at the average Aligulac points of both leagues and compare that to the average Aligulac points of WCS and Code S today; TaeJa in any of case never won WCS, he won tons of DH and HSC.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
"players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner"
These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could.
"And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments"
MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is
The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before...
On July 08 2019 00:46 Nakajin wrote: Hum, maybe foreigner are a bit better than they were, I still don't think it's a big margin in any case, most of the (real) B teamer korean have retired anyway so it's hard to tell.
In any case I think anyone would take a bracket with Reynor, Heromarine, Lambo and Showtime over one with HyuN, Bomber, San, MC and Jaedong which was the original point, the wcs circuit was way harder during TaeJa time than Serrral, so even if he didin't dominate has hard, I still think the number of victory he had is more impressive.
The WCS Circuit was split in half, a similar bracket could be possible in Dreamhack events where there were scarier players than these ones, like Life or Inno. Back in 2013, how menacing were the players of WCS NA for a top tier korean? Maybe one could look at the average Aligulac points of both leagues and compare that to the average Aligulac points of WCS and Code S today; TaeJa in any of case never won WCS, he won tons of DH and HSC.
Well by "circuit" I meant all the foreign event outside of Blizzcon But as for WCS NA these guys were scary as hell, Bomber won WCS season 2 and got a Blizzcon, Jaedong reach the final of Blizzcon, ByuL was a solid code S player and reach 3 back to back korean final after his return to Korea, Polt reach the final of IEM Cologne + a Katowice semi and HerO won an IEM and was a code S player after his NA day.
And outside of NA you had MMA, blizzcon finalist + GSL semi-finalist, San who won Asus Rog over the GSL champ Dear and Life and reach top 4 at the GSL global challenge or First who was a HOTS code S player both before and after his european days.
And a slew or other player who could at least take a series of a top korean the way strong foreigner did (HyuN, MC, Heart, Stardust...)
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
"players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner"
These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could.
"And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments"
MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is
The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before...
Hurricane the Code S semifinalist? Yes, he might very well beat foreigners(not granted). Hurricane in 2018 would not have, for sure. Impact is good but he was Special's safe pick last Code S(ehm), and he would get a ton of ZvZ so not really. Cure at the moment is hard to beat for anyone in Korea, average Cure is not expected to win WCS. Neeb, Special and Scarlett on a good day can beat multiple top tier koreans and win relevant tournaments(well, Special just doesn't regardless of competition), not just compete like Snute, Naniwa and Stephano did in HoTS(WoL was very different).
Hydra and maybe Hyun are the only ones who could be called mid tier koreans in your list(but I really wouldn't), at worst some of them were past their primes in HoTS; I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa... Stats, soO and TY are mid tier koreans too? I'll remember that.
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
Aside Serral, I can definitely see tier-3 Korean like Alive, Cure beating any foreigner.
I think Neeb, Special and Reynor are definitely favored over that calibre Korean player. And probably even the next rank of foreigners like Scarlett, HeroMarine, Showtime, TIME, Harstem or Drogo as well.
No way. Scarlett just lost to Cure, Showtime can't beat korean terrans, Heromarine lost to Keen in IEM qualis (who's even below aLive/Cure). Harstem and Drogo? Lol
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
"players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner"
These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could.
"And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments"
MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is
The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before...
It's definitely very difficult to juxtapose the old top Koreans from the good ol' days of SC2 onto how they'd fair during LotV. Back in the glory days of WoL and HotS, there were a few flashes of occasional foreigner brilliance and a few memorable runs, but after Stephano and Naniwa (undoubtedly the two best foreigners of the era) left when a lot of the big Korean teams and names left the scene, everything changed and I don't know if there's a way to really measure the 2016/17/18/19 scene and skill level and top players against the old guard that has long since moved on.
I feel its obvious the foreign scene has improved compared to the korean scene in general. Its hard to tell if foreigners got better, korea declined or a bit of both. However I feel the best foreigners (excluding Serral for obvious reasons) can be directly compared to the old foreign stars. Stephano won tournaments packed with koreans just like Neeb and Scarlett has done in lotv, when it comes to actual results it feels a bit hard to argue for how the top foreigners have gotten stronger. Foreigners seems to regularly get decently far in GSL recently but thats about it.
But if you look past SpeCial, Scarlett, Neeb and maybe even Elazer then all of a sudden the rest of the foreigners chances against RO16 GSL class opponents seem pretty low.
The amount of foreigners that can really be called equal to the RO16 GSL players, the top of korea is at most 3-4 players not counting Serral.
I don't even think that number would go up that much if we look at RO32 in GSL. Maybe 8-10 foreigners could rumble with those koreans on equal terms but no more. Thats why the depth is so different and also why I value WCS so low, there's basically only 1-3 hard matches for Serral and then he wins the tournament. GSL is many times harder because of how many players there are that are very high class.
Edit: If you really believe the foreigners have caught up, look at the recent tournaments and count the korea vs foreignerland score excludning Serral. Let me tell you, that looks really grim if you look at HSC.
On July 08 2019 09:06 Shuffleblade wrote: I feel its obvious the foreign scene has improved compared to the korean scene in general. Its hard to tell if foreigners got better, korea declined or a bit of both. However I feel the best foreigners (excluding Serral for obvious reasons) can be directly compared to the old foreign stars. Stephano won tournaments packed with koreans just like Neeb and Scarlett has done in lotv, when it comes to actual results it feels a bit hard to argue for how the top foreigners have gotten stronger. Foreigners seems to regularly get decently far in GSL recently but thats about it.
But if you look past SpeCial, Scarlett, Neeb and maybe even Elazer then all of a sudden the rest of the foreigners chances against RO16 GSL class opponents seem pretty low.
The amount of foreigners that can really be called equal to the RO16 GSL players, the top of korea is at most 3-4 players not counting Serral.
I don't even think that number would go up that much if we look at RO32 in GSL. Maybe 8-10 foreigners could rumble with those koreans on equal terms but no more. Thats why the depth is so different and also why I value WCS so low, there's basically only 1-3 hard matches for Serral and then he wins the tournament. GSL is many times harder because of how many players there are that are very high class.
Edit: If you really believe the foreigners have caught up, look at the recent tournaments and count the korea vs foreignerland score excludning Serral. Let me tell you, that looks really grim if you look at HSC.
You should not forget Reynor! I kind of agree on your view regarding RO16(I think it's more like 5 plus Serral). When it comes to Ro32, however, I strongly disagree; I am convinced a larger number of foreigners could at least qualify to Code S and that's precisely why you shouldn't discount WCS so easily.
There is no one who realistically thinks foreigners have caught up, but they drastically improved just as you say; at HSC Reynor lost to foreigners and the american trio was missing. I think the distance between the average korean and non korean progamer was maybe at its lowest in 2016 but in 2018 we saw Scarlett winning, Serral dominating and a decent amount of good runs.
In this discussion, we were not comparing top foreigners of LotV to WoL's since Stephano and the others could very well beat koreans in Premier finals but the situation we have nowadays against the complete disaster for non koreans that was HoTS competitive scene.
soO had the most consistent GSL streak up until Maru, and has been a top Zerg for years. The Katowice championship is just the cherry on top, i think he is long past his prime and yet he won the hardest tournament in the world. Nestea's is a player who should not be in this top 8 in my opinion, he won 3 GSLs back when they were a monthly tournament but unlike MC or Mvp he could not stay relevant for long, by the end of 2011 he was struggling with Naniwa and IdrA, broodlord infestor did nothing to help him. He was just another Fruitdealer, just with a longer streak. If you look at the legends who had their breakthrough in 2010 and 2011: MC, Mvp, Polt, MMA and Nestea, all of them managed to stay close to the top for years, except Nestea, whose highlight of 2012 was beating foreigners in Paris.
On July 08 2019 13:12 Morbidius wrote: soO, no contest.
soO had the most consistent GSL streak up until Maru, and has been a top Zerg for years. The Katowice championship is just the cherry on top, i think he is long past his prime and yet he won the hardest tournament in the world. Nestea's is a player who should not be in this top 8 in my opinion, he won 3 GSLs back when they were a monthly tournament but unlike MC or Mvp he could not stay relevant for long, by the end of 2011 he was struggling with Naniwa and IdrA, broodlord infestor did nothing to help him. He was just another Fruitdealer, just with a longer streak. If you look at the legends who had their breakthrough in 2010 and 2011: MC, Mvp, Polt, MMA and Nestea, all of them managed to stay close to the top for years, except Nestea, whose highlight of 2012 was beating foreigners in Paris.
I'm voting soO because he is obviously better but this is very unfair to Nestea. Nestea spent the entirety of 2011 getting eliminated by Mvp in a ton of different events. Off the top of my head there are 3 GSLs and Blizzcon where Mvp eliminated him but I'm pretty sure there was more. If it wasn't for bad brackets he would have had tons of 2nd places in addition to his 3 GSL wins. As it is he still placed highly with lots of ro4/ro8 in GSL. Back then just staying in GSL was hard. All the players you mentioned failed to qualify for at least one GSL code S season in 2011. Hence the Nestea award being called what it is. He also had IPL4 in mid 2012 where he took 3rd. That was an incredibly stacked event with pretty much every top player in the world and the 2 players who placed above him he had beaten earlier in the tournament. If that tournament hadn't had such insane pacing I feel like Nestea could have won it. He was definitely the favorite after he got through his group undefeated and then beat Squirtle and Stephano. He got a ro8 in GSL in 2012 as well which at that time was still a very impressive feat. Also something worth considering is player reputation and for most of 2012 Nestea was still a very feared player. Just see how DRG reacted during the group selections when Nestea picked him in groups. DRG would go on to win that series with some clever builds but his reaction at the time suggested he thought he had no chance. While Nestea is worse than soO he definitely deserves to be right around this placement in a GOAT list. I'd say a little bit lower but not so much lower that he never should make it here and he definitely deserved the wins over the players he faced.
On July 08 2019 13:12 Morbidius wrote: soO, no contest.
soO had the most consistent GSL streak up until Maru, and has been a top Zerg for years. The Katowice championship is just the cherry on top, i think he is long past his prime and yet he won the hardest tournament in the world. Nestea's is a player who should not be in this top 8 in my opinion, he won 3 GSLs back when they were a monthly tournament but unlike MC or Mvp he could not stay relevant for long, by the end of 2011 he was struggling with Naniwa and IdrA, broodlord infestor did nothing to help him. He was just another Fruitdealer, just with a longer streak. If you look at the legends who had their breakthrough in 2010 and 2011: MC, Mvp, Polt, MMA and Nestea, all of them managed to stay close to the top for years, except Nestea, whose highlight of 2012 was beating foreigners in Paris.
I'm voting soO because he is obviously better but this is very unfair to Nestea. Nestea spent the entirety of 2011 getting eliminated by Mvp in a ton of different events. Off the top of my head there are 3 GSLs and Blizzcon where Mvp eliminated him but I'm pretty sure there was more. If it wasn't for bad brackets he would have had tons of 2nd places in addition to his 3 GSL wins. As it is he still placed highly with lots of ro4/ro8 in GSL. Back then just staying in GSL was hard. All the players you mentioned failed to qualify for at least one GSL code S season in 2011. Hence the Nestea award being called what it is. He also had IPL4 in mid 2012 where he took 3rd. That was an incredibly stacked event with pretty much every top player in the world and the 2 players who placed above him he had beaten earlier in the tournament. If that tournament hadn't had such insane pacing I feel like Nestea could have won it. He was definitely the favorite after he got through his group undefeated and then beat Squirtle and Stephano. He got a ro8 in GSL in 2012 as well which at that time was still a very impressive feat. Also something worth considering is player reputation and for most of 2012 Nestea was still a very feared player. Just see how DRG reacted during the group selections when Nestea picked him in groups. DRG would go on to win that series with some clever builds but his reaction at the time suggested he thought he had no chance. While Nestea is worse than soO he definitely deserves to be right around this placement in a GOAT list. I'd say a little bit lower but not so much lower that he never should make it here and he definitely deserved the wins over the players he faced.
You do list some good results but in the end this is the 'Greatest of All Time'' list,staying in code S and some RO8's is not really what makes them great. Needing to search these results as an argument for Nestea's relevance is in itself proof of how irrelevant he was. For every other 2011 star i can point to multiple championships in the following years, even after the Kespa switch. Its not that i'm being unfair to Nestea here, its just that he's being compared to the best of the best. As for the placements there's an elephant in the room when it comes to Zerg players. We all know neither Nestea nor soO are in the top 4 by any reasonable metric.
I love Nestea, but his career was short and only encompassed the very earliest portions of the game.
soO has been an established name and one of the best Zergs in the world for years now. His 6 Silvers considering the era he played in is far more impressive than Nestea's 3 GSLs, and unlike Mvp he never had the HoTS comeback to solidify his reign as a comeback king.
Soo, without that IEM victory, would still be the second best Zerg behind the Dark Lord. the consistency of his seconds in the toughest tourney is unheard of.
also, what the hell was SSL 2017? I'm trying to make sense of challenge and fast lane and the way they did the brackets. Soo won challenge, which is like winning code A?
I started watching SC with 2013 dreamhack Bucharest, and 2013 wcs season 2 finals, and already by then I didn't understand why tastosis talked up nestea so much in the best of YouTube clips. he was done premier competitively after iron squid 2 in 2012. soo was a much better player even without the gold.
On July 08 2019 09:06 Shuffleblade wrote: I feel its obvious the foreign scene has improved compared to the korean scene in general. Its hard to tell if foreigners got better, korea declined or a bit of both. However I feel the best foreigners (excluding Serral for obvious reasons) can be directly compared to the old foreign stars. Stephano won tournaments packed with koreans just like Neeb and Scarlett has done in lotv, when it comes to actual results it feels a bit hard to argue for how the top foreigners have gotten stronger. Foreigners seems to regularly get decently far in GSL recently but thats about it.
But if you look past SpeCial, Scarlett, Neeb and maybe even Elazer then all of a sudden the rest of the foreigners chances against RO16 GSL class opponents seem pretty low.
The amount of foreigners that can really be called equal to the RO16 GSL players, the top of korea is at most 3-4 players not counting Serral.
I don't even think that number would go up that much if we look at RO32 in GSL. Maybe 8-10 foreigners could rumble with those koreans on equal terms but no more. Thats why the depth is so different and also why I value WCS so low, there's basically only 1-3 hard matches for Serral and then he wins the tournament. GSL is many times harder because of how many players there are that are very high class.
Edit: If you really believe the foreigners have caught up, look at the recent tournaments and count the korea vs foreignerland score excludning Serral. Let me tell you, that looks really grim if you look at HSC.
You should not forget Reynor! I kind of agree on your view regarding RO16(I think it's more like 5 plus Serral). When it comes to Ro32, however, I strongly disagree; I am convinced a larger number of foreigners could at least qualify to Code S and that's precisely why you shouldn't discount WCS so easily.
There is no one who realistically thinks foreigners have caught up, but they drastically improved just as you say; at HSC Reynor lost to foreigners and the american trio was missing. I think the distance between the average korean and non korean progamer was maybe at its lowest in 2016 but in 2018 we saw Scarlett winning, Serral dominating and a decent amount of good runs.
In this discussion, we were not comparing top foreigners of LotV to WoL's since Stephano and the others could very well beat koreans in Premier finals but the situation we have nowadays against the complete disaster for non koreans that was HoTS competitive scene.
Could Mana, Harstem, Marinelord, Ptitdrogo, DnS or Bly at least qualify for GSL. Of course they could, I'm not saying they couldn't, I also believe they could certainly.
The question is if we look at the very bottom of GSL, Armani, Keen or aLive the question I ask myself is are the above mentioned foreigners favored? unfavored? equal? I intended to disagree with you but after looking at 2018 GSL qualifier results when foreigners were trying to get into GSL a lot more than now does seem to indicate that many more than 10 are equal. Damnit, you don't even need to convince me, I'm convincing myslef (>_<)
On July 08 2019 09:06 Shuffleblade wrote: I feel its obvious the foreign scene has improved compared to the korean scene in general. Its hard to tell if foreigners got better, korea declined or a bit of both. However I feel the best foreigners (excluding Serral for obvious reasons) can be directly compared to the old foreign stars. Stephano won tournaments packed with koreans just like Neeb and Scarlett has done in lotv, when it comes to actual results it feels a bit hard to argue for how the top foreigners have gotten stronger. Foreigners seems to regularly get decently far in GSL recently but thats about it.
But if you look past SpeCial, Scarlett, Neeb and maybe even Elazer then all of a sudden the rest of the foreigners chances against RO16 GSL class opponents seem pretty low.
The amount of foreigners that can really be called equal to the RO16 GSL players, the top of korea is at most 3-4 players not counting Serral.
I don't even think that number would go up that much if we look at RO32 in GSL. Maybe 8-10 foreigners could rumble with those koreans on equal terms but no more. Thats why the depth is so different and also why I value WCS so low, there's basically only 1-3 hard matches for Serral and then he wins the tournament. GSL is many times harder because of how many players there are that are very high class.
Edit: If you really believe the foreigners have caught up, look at the recent tournaments and count the korea vs foreignerland score excludning Serral. Let me tell you, that looks really grim if you look at HSC.
You should not forget Reynor! I kind of agree on your view regarding RO16(I think it's more like 5 plus Serral). When it comes to Ro32, however, I strongly disagree; I am convinced a larger number of foreigners could at least qualify to Code S and that's precisely why you shouldn't discount WCS so easily.
There is no one who realistically thinks foreigners have caught up, but they drastically improved just as you say; at HSC Reynor lost to foreigners and the american trio was missing. I think the distance between the average korean and non korean progamer was maybe at its lowest in 2016 but in 2018 we saw Scarlett winning, Serral dominating and a decent amount of good runs.
In this discussion, we were not comparing top foreigners of LotV to WoL's since Stephano and the others could very well beat koreans in Premier finals but the situation we have nowadays against the complete disaster for non koreans that was HoTS competitive scene.
Could Mana, Harstem, Marinelord, Ptitdrogo, DnS or Bly at least qualify for GSL. Of course they could, I'm not saying they couldn't, I also believe they could certainly.
The question is if we look at the very bottom of GSL, Armani, Keen or aLive the question I ask myself is are the above mentioned foreigners favored? unfavored? equal? I intended to disagree with you but after looking at 2018 GSL qualifier results when foreigners were trying to get into GSL a lot more than now does seem to indicate that many more than 10 are equal. Damnit, you don't even need to convince me, I'm convincing myslef (>_<)
I'd be VERY curious to see how the top foreign competitors not named Serral would perform vs the Ro32 level GSL Koreans. I mean we could also exclude, Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor since they already proved their stuff by making it to the Ro16.
I'd love to see how the others matched up. It's too bad that thanks to regionlocking we'll never get a full gauge of just where the skill divide is.
All we get are two or three mixed global contests a year. That's a shame.
On July 08 2019 09:06 Shuffleblade wrote: I feel its obvious the foreign scene has improved compared to the korean scene in general. Its hard to tell if foreigners got better, korea declined or a bit of both. However I feel the best foreigners (excluding Serral for obvious reasons) can be directly compared to the old foreign stars. Stephano won tournaments packed with koreans just like Neeb and Scarlett has done in lotv, when it comes to actual results it feels a bit hard to argue for how the top foreigners have gotten stronger. Foreigners seems to regularly get decently far in GSL recently but thats about it.
But if you look past SpeCial, Scarlett, Neeb and maybe even Elazer then all of a sudden the rest of the foreigners chances against RO16 GSL class opponents seem pretty low.
The amount of foreigners that can really be called equal to the RO16 GSL players, the top of korea is at most 3-4 players not counting Serral.
I don't even think that number would go up that much if we look at RO32 in GSL. Maybe 8-10 foreigners could rumble with those koreans on equal terms but no more. Thats why the depth is so different and also why I value WCS so low, there's basically only 1-3 hard matches for Serral and then he wins the tournament. GSL is many times harder because of how many players there are that are very high class.
Edit: If you really believe the foreigners have caught up, look at the recent tournaments and count the korea vs foreignerland score excludning Serral. Let me tell you, that looks really grim if you look at HSC.
You should not forget Reynor! I kind of agree on your view regarding RO16(I think it's more like 5 plus Serral). When it comes to Ro32, however, I strongly disagree; I am convinced a larger number of foreigners could at least qualify to Code S and that's precisely why you shouldn't discount WCS so easily.
There is no one who realistically thinks foreigners have caught up, but they drastically improved just as you say; at HSC Reynor lost to foreigners and the american trio was missing. I think the distance between the average korean and non korean progamer was maybe at its lowest in 2016 but in 2018 we saw Scarlett winning, Serral dominating and a decent amount of good runs.
In this discussion, we were not comparing top foreigners of LotV to WoL's since Stephano and the others could very well beat koreans in Premier finals but the situation we have nowadays against the complete disaster for non koreans that was HoTS competitive scene.
Could Mana, Harstem, Marinelord, Ptitdrogo, DnS or Bly at least qualify for GSL. Of course they could, I'm not saying they couldn't, I also believe they could certainly.
The question is if we look at the very bottom of GSL, Armani, Keen or aLive the question I ask myself is are the above mentioned foreigners favored? unfavored? equal? I intended to disagree with you but after looking at 2018 GSL qualifier results when foreigners were trying to get into GSL a lot more than now does seem to indicate that many more than 10 are equal. Damnit, you don't even need to convince me, I'm convincing myslef (>_<)
I'd be VERY curious to see how the top foreign competitors not named Serral would perform vs the Ro32 level GSL Koreans. I mean we could also exclude, Neeb, Scarlett, Special and Reynor since they already proved their stuff by making it to the Ro16.
I'd love to see how the others matched up. It's too bad that thanks to regionlocking we'll never get a full gauge of just where the skill divide is.
All we get are two or three mixed global contests a year. That's a shame.
I just posted where you can see that......
Of course "some results" might not be enough results for you or maybe you are just too lazy to look it up yourself?
GSL 2018 s2 qualifiers saw (excluding Scarlett and SpeCial) Kelazhur take Dear down but get knocked out by Keen and Forte. Puck defeated Creator but got knocked out by Bunny and TY. Sortof defeated TOP and got knocked out by Jjakji and Hurricane. Zanster defeated ByuL but got knocked out by Rogue and Patience Noregret was defeated by Gumiho and Trust. Lambo got knocked out by Ryung and Ragnarok. Has defeated Elazer and Ryung but got knocked out by Innovation and Ragnarok.
Day 2 Zanster gets defeated by Dear but qualifies through defeating Natural, Forte and Ragnarok. Sortof qualifies by defeating Emotion and Creator. Elazer get defeated by Hurricane but qualifies through defeating Overpass, Parting and Hurricane(revenge). Lambo gets knocked out by Bunny. Puck defeats Rookie but get knocked out by Rogue and Jjakji. Kelazhur defeat Noregret but gets knocked out by Impact and Ryung. Noregret defeats Dandy but gets knocked out by Ryung and Kelazhur.
Looking at the results its not like all the foreigners just gets stomped, out of the 7 notable foreigners 3 qualified. Included Noregret in notable foreigners since he actually qualified the season before =P
Also Sortof qualified into ro32 twice in a row which would mean he is a gsl ro 32 foreigner? =D
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
"players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner"
These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could.
"And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments"
MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is
The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before...
Hurricane the Code S semifinalist? Yes, he might very well beat foreigners(not granted). Hurricane in 2018 would not have, for sure. Impact is good but he was Special's safe pick last Code S(ehm), and he would get a ton of ZvZ so not really. Cure at the moment is hard to beat for anyone in Korea, average Cure is not expected to win WCS. Neeb, Special and Scarlett on a good day can beat multiple top tier koreans and win relevant tournaments(well, Special just doesn't regardless of competition), not just compete like Snute, Naniwa and Stephano did in HoTS(WoL was very different).
Hydra and maybe Hyun are the only ones who could be called mid tier koreans in your list(but I really wouldn't), at worst some of them were past their primes in HoTS; I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa... Stats, soO and TY are mid tier koreans too? I'll remember that.
"I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa..." = Why even mention these insignificant low tier players instead of mentioning the ones in my list? Because it fits more into your dreamy views? Why am I even trying, you are a lost cause... :/
On July 08 2019 09:06 Shuffleblade wrote: I feel its obvious the foreign scene has improved compared to the korean scene in general. Its hard to tell if foreigners got better, korea declined or a bit of both. However I feel the best foreigners (excluding Serral for obvious reasons) can be directly compared to the old foreign stars. Stephano won tournaments packed with koreans just like Neeb and Scarlett has done in lotv, when it comes to actual results it feels a bit hard to argue for how the top foreigners have gotten stronger. Foreigners seems to regularly get decently far in GSL recently but thats about it.
But if you look past SpeCial, Scarlett, Neeb and maybe even Elazer then all of a sudden the rest of the foreigners chances against RO16 GSL class opponents seem pretty low.
The amount of foreigners that can really be called equal to the RO16 GSL players, the top of korea is at most 3-4 players not counting Serral.
I don't even think that number would go up that much if we look at RO32 in GSL. Maybe 8-10 foreigners could rumble with those koreans on equal terms but no more. Thats why the depth is so different and also why I value WCS so low, there's basically only 1-3 hard matches for Serral and then he wins the tournament. GSL is many times harder because of how many players there are that are very high class.
Edit: If you really believe the foreigners have caught up, look at the recent tournaments and count the korea vs foreignerland score excludning Serral. Let me tell you, that looks really grim if you look at HSC.
You should not forget Reynor! I kind of agree on your view regarding RO16(I think it's more like 5 plus Serral). When it comes to Ro32, however, I strongly disagree; I am convinced a larger number of foreigners could at least qualify to Code S and that's precisely why you shouldn't discount WCS so easily.
There is no one who realistically thinks foreigners have caught up, but they drastically improved just as you say; at HSC Reynor lost to foreigners and the american trio was missing. I think the distance between the average korean and non korean progamer was maybe at its lowest in 2016 but in 2018 we saw Scarlett winning, Serral dominating and a decent amount of good runs.
In this discussion, we were not comparing top foreigners of LotV to WoL's since Stephano and the others could very well beat koreans in Premier finals but the situation we have nowadays against the complete disaster for non koreans that was HoTS competitive scene.
Could Mana, Harstem, Marinelord, Ptitdrogo, DnS or Bly at least qualify for GSL. Of course they could, I'm not saying they couldn't, I also believe they could certainly.
No they could not. Even if some of them somehow qualified, they would just get completely destroyed in RO32. Even the better foreigners (Elazer, Showtime, Heromarine, Uthermal, Lambo) got stomped by Koreans on the last HSC. And those werent even the absolute best ones. Why would the results in GSL be any different?
On July 06 2019 11:29 AzAlexZ wrote: [quote] Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
"players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner"
These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could.
"And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments"
MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is
The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before...
Hurricane the Code S semifinalist? Yes, he might very well beat foreigners(not granted). Hurricane in 2018 would not have, for sure. Impact is good but he was Special's safe pick last Code S(ehm), and he would get a ton of ZvZ so not really. Cure at the moment is hard to beat for anyone in Korea, average Cure is not expected to win WCS. Neeb, Special and Scarlett on a good day can beat multiple top tier koreans and win relevant tournaments(well, Special just doesn't regardless of competition), not just compete like Snute, Naniwa and Stephano did in HoTS(WoL was very different).
Hydra and maybe Hyun are the only ones who could be called mid tier koreans in your list(but I really wouldn't), at worst some of them were past their primes in HoTS; I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa... Stats, soO and TY are mid tier koreans too? I'll remember that.
"I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa..." = Why even mention these insignificant low tier players instead of mentioning the ones in my list? Because it fits more into your dreamy views? Why am I even trying, you are a lost cause... :/
Because those insignificant low tier players, just as you call them, won tournaments during HoTS while the best foreigners couldn't(Sen and Lilbow succeeded in the end, but still). You haven't really been following my reasoning, have you? The ones in your list won tournaments in WoL or LoTV too(with the notable exception of Hyun, who however was one map away from a Code S title) and, I insist, cannot even be called mid tier.
Also, Bunny and Creator, who were the only non S class koreans at HSC, certainly didn't "stomp"; those are the players the foreigners can replace in ro32. Zest, Stats, TY can underperform but unless they are slumping super hard like Rogue did, they are easily capable of manhandling good foreigners(surprise surprise, Solar lost a ZvZ to Elazer instead, and it's not the first time it happens).
On July 08 2019 09:06 Shuffleblade wrote: I feel its obvious the foreign scene has improved compared to the korean scene in general. Its hard to tell if foreigners got better, korea declined or a bit of both. However I feel the best foreigners (excluding Serral for obvious reasons) can be directly compared to the old foreign stars. Stephano won tournaments packed with koreans just like Neeb and Scarlett has done in lotv, when it comes to actual results it feels a bit hard to argue for how the top foreigners have gotten stronger. Foreigners seems to regularly get decently far in GSL recently but thats about it.
But if you look past SpeCial, Scarlett, Neeb and maybe even Elazer then all of a sudden the rest of the foreigners chances against RO16 GSL class opponents seem pretty low.
The amount of foreigners that can really be called equal to the RO16 GSL players, the top of korea is at most 3-4 players not counting Serral.
I don't even think that number would go up that much if we look at RO32 in GSL. Maybe 8-10 foreigners could rumble with those koreans on equal terms but no more. Thats why the depth is so different and also why I value WCS so low, there's basically only 1-3 hard matches for Serral and then he wins the tournament. GSL is many times harder because of how many players there are that are very high class.
Edit: If you really believe the foreigners have caught up, look at the recent tournaments and count the korea vs foreignerland score excludning Serral. Let me tell you, that looks really grim if you look at HSC.
You should not forget Reynor! I kind of agree on your view regarding RO16(I think it's more like 5 plus Serral). When it comes to Ro32, however, I strongly disagree; I am convinced a larger number of foreigners could at least qualify to Code S and that's precisely why you shouldn't discount WCS so easily.
There is no one who realistically thinks foreigners have caught up, but they drastically improved just as you say; at HSC Reynor lost to foreigners and the american trio was missing. I think the distance between the average korean and non korean progamer was maybe at its lowest in 2016 but in 2018 we saw Scarlett winning, Serral dominating and a decent amount of good runs.
In this discussion, we were not comparing top foreigners of LotV to WoL's since Stephano and the others could very well beat koreans in Premier finals but the situation we have nowadays against the complete disaster for non koreans that was HoTS competitive scene.
Could Mana, Harstem, Marinelord, Ptitdrogo, DnS or Bly at least qualify for GSL. Of course they could, I'm not saying they couldn't, I also believe they could certainly.
No they could not. Even if some of them somehow qualified, they would just get completely destroyed in RO32. Even the better foreigners (Elazer, Showtime, Heromarine, Uthermal, Lambo) got stomped by Koreans on the last HSC. And those werent even the absolute best ones. Why would the results in GSL be any different?
Creator went 2-5 and crashed out in the group stage, with losses to Reynor, Lambo, Snute (retired, lol) and Harstem. Bunny lost to Elazer and Hellraiser in the groups. Solar lost to Elazer in the knockout round (and Reynor in the groups).
These are players who sometimes qualify for Code S. We're not talking about the second tier of foreigners being favoured against players like Stats, Zest, soO or TY, who are some of the best in Korea: Stats is probably still the best Protoss, although Trap and Zest can make claims to that title too, soO is the second-best Zerg, and TY is top 3 terran. So calling them "not the best" is a bit of a weird statement. It's worth noting that the second-rate Koreans also got trashed by these.
There's a huge gap between the top 10-15 players in Korea and the rest. And that "rest" is really no better than the top 15 or so foreigners. This is twice in a row that Special makes Ro16 in GSL, and he isn't miles ahead of other foreigners.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
"players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner"
These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could.
"And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments"
MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is
The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before...
Hurricane the Code S semifinalist? Yes, he might very well beat foreigners(not granted). Hurricane in 2018 would not have, for sure. Impact is good but he was Special's safe pick last Code S(ehm), and he would get a ton of ZvZ so not really. Cure at the moment is hard to beat for anyone in Korea, average Cure is not expected to win WCS. Neeb, Special and Scarlett on a good day can beat multiple top tier koreans and win relevant tournaments(well, Special just doesn't regardless of competition), not just compete like Snute, Naniwa and Stephano did in HoTS(WoL was very different).
Hydra and maybe Hyun are the only ones who could be called mid tier koreans in your list(but I really wouldn't), at worst some of them were past their primes in HoTS; I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa... Stats, soO and TY are mid tier koreans too? I'll remember that.
"I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa..." = Why even mention these insignificant low tier players instead of mentioning the ones in my list? Because it fits more into your dreamy views? Why am I even trying, you are a lost cause... :/
Because those insignificant low tier players, just as you call them, won tournaments during HoTS while the best foreigners couldn't(Sen and Lilbow succeeded in the end, but still). You haven't really been following my reasoning, have you? The ones in your list won tournaments in WoL or LoTV too(with the notable exception of Hyun, who however was one map away from a Code S title) and, I insist, cannot even be called mid tier.
Okay I think I get it now. But no-one is arguing the improvement of foreigners and decline of the depth and lower level koreans. This does not really help reinforce your argument that WCS has more quality now than in had before the region lock. Because it wasnt flukes like Duckdeock who consistently crushed the foreign scene but it was players like Polt, MMA, Hydra, MC, Inno. But these dont fit your criteria do they? Also, while the foreigners did improve, so did the top koreans. Exclude Serral and the results are not really any better than they were before. Korea still crushes it, and occasional moments of brilliance (like Neeb and Scarlett winning tournaments) that happened before as well (Stephano, Naniwa, Marinelord at NW, Snute).
On July 08 2019 09:06 Shuffleblade wrote: I feel its obvious the foreign scene has improved compared to the korean scene in general. Its hard to tell if foreigners got better, korea declined or a bit of both. However I feel the best foreigners (excluding Serral for obvious reasons) can be directly compared to the old foreign stars. Stephano won tournaments packed with koreans just like Neeb and Scarlett has done in lotv, when it comes to actual results it feels a bit hard to argue for how the top foreigners have gotten stronger. Foreigners seems to regularly get decently far in GSL recently but thats about it.
But if you look past SpeCial, Scarlett, Neeb and maybe even Elazer then all of a sudden the rest of the foreigners chances against RO16 GSL class opponents seem pretty low.
The amount of foreigners that can really be called equal to the RO16 GSL players, the top of korea is at most 3-4 players not counting Serral.
I don't even think that number would go up that much if we look at RO32 in GSL. Maybe 8-10 foreigners could rumble with those koreans on equal terms but no more. Thats why the depth is so different and also why I value WCS so low, there's basically only 1-3 hard matches for Serral and then he wins the tournament. GSL is many times harder because of how many players there are that are very high class.
Edit: If you really believe the foreigners have caught up, look at the recent tournaments and count the korea vs foreignerland score excludning Serral. Let me tell you, that looks really grim if you look at HSC.
You should not forget Reynor! I kind of agree on your view regarding RO16(I think it's more like 5 plus Serral). When it comes to Ro32, however, I strongly disagree; I am convinced a larger number of foreigners could at least qualify to Code S and that's precisely why you shouldn't discount WCS so easily.
There is no one who realistically thinks foreigners have caught up, but they drastically improved just as you say; at HSC Reynor lost to foreigners and the american trio was missing. I think the distance between the average korean and non korean progamer was maybe at its lowest in 2016 but in 2018 we saw Scarlett winning, Serral dominating and a decent amount of good runs.
In this discussion, we were not comparing top foreigners of LotV to WoL's since Stephano and the others could very well beat koreans in Premier finals but the situation we have nowadays against the complete disaster for non koreans that was HoTS competitive scene.
Could Mana, Harstem, Marinelord, Ptitdrogo, DnS or Bly at least qualify for GSL. Of course they could, I'm not saying they couldn't, I also believe they could certainly.
No they could not. Even if some of them somehow qualified, they would just get completely destroyed in RO32. Even the better foreigners (Elazer, Showtime, Heromarine, Uthermal, Lambo) got stomped by Koreans on the last HSC. And those werent even the absolute best ones. Why would the results in GSL be any different?
Creator went 2-5 and crashed out in the group stage, with losses to Reynor, Lambo, Snute (retired, lol) and Harstem. Bunny lost to Elazer and Hellraiser in the groups. Solar lost to Elazer in the knockout round (and Reynor in the groups).
These are players who sometimes qualify for Code S. We're not talking about the second tier of foreigners being favoured against players like Stats, Zest, soO or TY, who are some of the best in Korea: Stats is probably still the best Protoss, although Trap and Zest can make claims to that title too, soO is the second-best Zerg, and TY is top 3 terran. So calling them "not the best" is a bit of a weird statement. It's worth noting that the second-rate Koreans also got trashed by these.
There's a huge gap between the top 10-15 players in Korea and the rest. And that "rest" is really no better than the top 15 or so foreigners. This is twice in a row that Special makes Ro16 in GSL, and he isn't miles ahead of other foreigners.
Yes, I agree. There is a huge gap between top 16 or top 20 in Korea and the rest. And there is a huge gap between Serral and the rest of WCS, and also between Neeb, Special, Scarlett and the rest (Reynor is getting there maybe but he is still young and inconsistent). But the point is exactly that the mid/lower tier foreigners still have no chance for Korea top 20 and the top foreigners except Serral still have no chance against Korea top 10. So except korea losing depth and foreigners having better ZvZ because of a number of factors, is there really a big change in the terms of results and the gap between korea and foreign-land?
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
"players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner"
These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could.
"And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments"
MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is
The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before...
Hurricane the Code S semifinalist? Yes, he might very well beat foreigners(not granted). Hurricane in 2018 would not have, for sure. Impact is good but he was Special's safe pick last Code S(ehm), and he would get a ton of ZvZ so not really. Cure at the moment is hard to beat for anyone in Korea, average Cure is not expected to win WCS. Neeb, Special and Scarlett on a good day can beat multiple top tier koreans and win relevant tournaments(well, Special just doesn't regardless of competition), not just compete like Snute, Naniwa and Stephano did in HoTS(WoL was very different).
Hydra and maybe Hyun are the only ones who could be called mid tier koreans in your list(but I really wouldn't), at worst some of them were past their primes in HoTS; I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa... Stats, soO and TY are mid tier koreans too? I'll remember that.
"I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa..." = Why even mention these insignificant low tier players instead of mentioning the ones in my list? Because it fits more into your dreamy views? Why am I even trying, you are a lost cause... :/
Because those insignificant low tier players, just as you call them, won tournaments during HoTS while the best foreigners couldn't(Sen and Lilbow succeeded in the end, but still). You haven't really been following my reasoning, have you? The ones in your list won tournaments in WoL or LoTV too(with the notable exception of Hyun, who however was one map away from a Code S title) and, I insist, cannot even be called mid tier.
Okay I think I get it now. But no-one is arguing the improvement of foreigners and decline of the depth and lower level koreans. This does not really help reinforce your argument that WCS has more quality now than in had before the region lock. Because it wasnt flukes like Duckdeock who consistently crushed the foreign scene but it was players like Polt, MMA, Hydra, MC, Inno. But these dont fit your criteria do they? Also, while the foreigners did improve, so did the top koreans. Exclude Serral and the results are not really any better than they were before. Korea still crushes it, and occasional moments of brilliance (like Neeb and Scarlett winning tournaments) that happened before as well (Stephano, Naniwa, Marinelord at NW, Snute).
If in past times you had to list the top 50 players, you'd probably include 2, maybe 3 foreigners. Right now, there's a case to be made for 15 or more. Moreover, however much you want to exclude Serral as an abnormality, he *is* a top 3 player right now, and he is a product of the foreign scene. That is *also* unheard of. So between those two "stats", I think is is incontrovertible that the foreign scene is catching up.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
"players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner"
These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could.
"And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments"
MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is
The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before...
Hurricane the Code S semifinalist? Yes, he might very well beat foreigners(not granted). Hurricane in 2018 would not have, for sure. Impact is good but he was Special's safe pick last Code S(ehm), and he would get a ton of ZvZ so not really. Cure at the moment is hard to beat for anyone in Korea, average Cure is not expected to win WCS. Neeb, Special and Scarlett on a good day can beat multiple top tier koreans and win relevant tournaments(well, Special just doesn't regardless of competition), not just compete like Snute, Naniwa and Stephano did in HoTS(WoL was very different).
Hydra and maybe Hyun are the only ones who could be called mid tier koreans in your list(but I really wouldn't), at worst some of them were past their primes in HoTS; I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa... Stats, soO and TY are mid tier koreans too? I'll remember that.
"I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa..." = Why even mention these insignificant low tier players instead of mentioning the ones in my list? Because it fits more into your dreamy views? Why am I even trying, you are a lost cause... :/
Because those insignificant low tier players, just as you call them, won tournaments during HoTS while the best foreigners couldn't(Sen and Lilbow succeeded in the end, but still). You haven't really been following my reasoning, have you? The ones in your list won tournaments in WoL or LoTV too(with the notable exception of Hyun, who however was one map away from a Code S title) and, I insist, cannot even be called mid tier.
Okay I think I get it now. But no-one is arguing the improvement of foreigners and decline of the depth and lower level koreans. This does not really help reinforce your argument that WCS has more quality now than in had before the region lock. Because it wasnt flukes like Duckdeock who consistently crushed the foreign scene but it was players like Polt, MMA, Hydra, MC, Inno. But these dont fit your criteria do they? Also, while the foreigners did improve, so did the top koreans. Exclude Serral and the results are not really any better than they were before. Korea still crushes it, and occasional moments of brilliance (like Neeb and Scarlett winning tournaments) that happened before as well (Stephano, Naniwa, Marinelord at NW, Snute).
On the contrary, Nakajin didn't believe foreigners significantly improved since HoTS(that's why this discussion started).
WCS AM in 2013 probably had more top contenders than WCS has now, but none of them was a foreigner(Huk wasn't as strong, Scarlett was inconsistent as usual); also, the unified Circuit in 2016 was maybe the closest it ever was to Code S in terms of average level considering that year was probably the best for WCS and one of the worst for korean Starcraft, but a player of the caliber of Serral was not there. I wouldn't be so sure WCS nowadays is worse than it used to be.
If we exclude Serral, foreigners in LoTV didn't have greater results than in WoL, but, compared to the top koreans, they are so much better than it was the case in HOTS.
On one of the “best games” intros I have read was about an unbelievable hold by performed by Nestea vs Choya on scrap station, but could not find VOD anywhere Is there any chance this VOD still exists?
Funny thing this game description was about soO channeling his inner NesTea + Show Spoiler +
I feel that alongside winning things there should be some weighting for folks who figured out how SC2 should be played when the game was totally fresh too.
This isn’t too say people who came later didn’t bring their own innovations but Nestea was so ahead of the curve in carving out the cornerstone of Zerg play when nobody had anything else to go off.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
"players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner"
These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could.
"And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments"
MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is
The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before...
Hurricane the Code S semifinalist? Yes, he might very well beat foreigners(not granted). Hurricane in 2018 would not have, for sure. Impact is good but he was Special's safe pick last Code S(ehm), and he would get a ton of ZvZ so not really. Cure at the moment is hard to beat for anyone in Korea, average Cure is not expected to win WCS. Neeb, Special and Scarlett on a good day can beat multiple top tier koreans and win relevant tournaments(well, Special just doesn't regardless of competition), not just compete like Snute, Naniwa and Stephano did in HoTS(WoL was very different).
Hydra and maybe Hyun are the only ones who could be called mid tier koreans in your list(but I really wouldn't), at worst some of them were past their primes in HoTS; I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa... Stats, soO and TY are mid tier koreans too? I'll remember that.
"I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa..." = Why even mention these insignificant low tier players instead of mentioning the ones in my list? Because it fits more into your dreamy views? Why am I even trying, you are a lost cause... :/
Because those insignificant low tier players, just as you call them, won tournaments during HoTS while the best foreigners couldn't(Sen and Lilbow succeeded in the end, but still). You haven't really been following my reasoning, have you? The ones in your list won tournaments in WoL or LoTV too(with the notable exception of Hyun, who however was one map away from a Code S title) and, I insist, cannot even be called mid tier.
Okay I think I get it now. But no-one is arguing the improvement of foreigners and decline of the depth and lower level koreans. This does not really help reinforce your argument that WCS has more quality now than in had before the region lock. Because it wasnt flukes like Duckdeock who consistently crushed the foreign scene but it was players like Polt, MMA, Hydra, MC, Inno. But these dont fit your criteria do they? Also, while the foreigners did improve, so did the top koreans. Exclude Serral and the results are not really any better than they were before. Korea still crushes it, and occasional moments of brilliance (like Neeb and Scarlett winning tournaments) that happened before as well (Stephano, Naniwa, Marinelord at NW, Snute).
On the contrary, Nakajin didn't believe foreigners significantly improved since HoTS(that's why this discussion started).
WCS AM in 2013 probably had more top contenders than WCS has now, but none of them was a foreigner(Huk wasn't as strong, Scarlett was inconsistent as usual); also, the unified Circuit in 2016 was maybe the closest it ever was to Code S in terms of average level considering that year was probably the best for WCS and one of the worst for korean Starcraft, but a player of the caliber of Serral was not there. I wouldn't be so sure WCS nowadays is worse than it used to be.
If we exclude Serral, foreigners in LoTV didn't have greater results than in WoL ones, but, compared to the top koreans, they are so much better than it was the case in HOTS.
Right. Thanks for clarifying. Yes, its undeniable that foreigners did improve from the HOTS era
It can't really be shocking that once the big sponsors and teams left SC2 in Korea that foreigners would close the gap. That was the main advantage Koreans had and reduced the depth of the scene greatly.
To me it really leveled the playing field in terms of infrastructure which has led to the results we see. I don't think that if team houses were still in full swing the foreigners would be having the relative level of success that they are enjoying now. (Besides the top top foreigners who would be performing regardless)
On July 08 2019 21:41 Acrofales wrote: If in past times you had to list the top 50 players, you'd probably include 2, maybe 3 foreigners. Right now, there's a case to be made for 15 or more. Moreover, however much you want to exclude Serral as an abnormality, he *is* a top 3 player right now, and he is a product of the foreign scene. That is *also* unheard of. So between those two "stats", I think is is incontrovertible that the foreign scene is catching up.
Pretty much this, very good way of putting it. The best 20 players in the world are still koreans(+Serral and possibly +Neeb +SpeCial).
But the depth of korea has disappeared and there is probably at least 20 foreigners in top 50 sc2 players atm.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL.
It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series...
When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it.
A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me.
Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect....
The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do.
And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners.
IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases).
Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now?
"players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner"
These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could.
"And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments"
MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is
The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before...
Hurricane the Code S semifinalist? Yes, he might very well beat foreigners(not granted). Hurricane in 2018 would not have, for sure. Impact is good but he was Special's safe pick last Code S(ehm), and he would get a ton of ZvZ so not really. Cure at the moment is hard to beat for anyone in Korea, average Cure is not expected to win WCS. Neeb, Special and Scarlett on a good day can beat multiple top tier koreans and win relevant tournaments(well, Special just doesn't regardless of competition), not just compete like Snute, Naniwa and Stephano did in HoTS(WoL was very different).
Hydra and maybe Hyun are the only ones who could be called mid tier koreans in your list(but I really wouldn't), at worst some of them were past their primes in HoTS; I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa... Stats, soO and TY are mid tier koreans too? I'll remember that.
"I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa..." = Why even mention these insignificant low tier players instead of mentioning the ones in my list? Because it fits more into your dreamy views? Why am I even trying, you are a lost cause... :/
Because those insignificant low tier players, just as you call them, won tournaments during HoTS while the best foreigners couldn't(Sen and Lilbow succeeded in the end, but still). You haven't really been following my reasoning, have you? The ones in your list won tournaments in WoL or LoTV too(with the notable exception of Hyun, who however was one map away from a Code S title) and, I insist, cannot even be called mid tier.
Okay I think I get it now. But no-one is arguing the improvement of foreigners and decline of the depth and lower level koreans. This does not really help reinforce your argument that WCS has more quality now than in had before the region lock. Because it wasnt flukes like Duckdeock who consistently crushed the foreign scene but it was players like Polt, MMA, Hydra, MC, Inno. But these dont fit your criteria do they? Also, while the foreigners did improve, so did the top koreans. Exclude Serral and the results are not really any better than they were before. Korea still crushes it, and occasional moments of brilliance (like Neeb and Scarlett winning tournaments) that happened before as well (Stephano, Naniwa, Marinelord at NW, Snute).
If in past times you had to list the top 50 players, you'd probably include 2, maybe 3 foreigners. Right now, there's a case to be made for 15 or more. Moreover, however much you want to exclude Serral as an abnormality, he *is* a top 3 player right now, and he is a product of the foreign scene. That is *also* unheard of. So between those two "stats", I think is is incontrovertible that the foreign scene is catching up.
Maybe that's because there are only like 35 korean pros left? really impressive that 15 of the best 50 players are foreigners then. Chapeau!
In response to the talk about how strong foreigners are, I checked Aligulac for the offline Korean winrate of many top foreigners. Based on that, I think Serral is on another level compared to the other foreigners. To my knowledge, Reynor is only other foreigner with above 50% offline winrate against Koreans in LotV (he's around 50 percent overall but 57% from HSC XVIII 2018 to now). Neeb's is like 47% overall but in fairness, he usually had to fight top Koreans. Special was 43% but he clearly improved a lot and is now like 54% this year over a pretty big sample (and like 60.5% winrate when I checked "form" on Aligulac). Most of the other top foreigners had winrates in 30s to 40s against the Koreans offline. Serral is like 60 percent (64 percent after beginning of 2018) which is pretty incredible (most top Koreans don't have winrates in 60s against other Koreans).
From what I've gathered, it looks like Serral is head and shoulders above the rest, and then Special and Reynor are probably top 20 level, as they do fine against top Koreans and are pretty favoured against mid-tier Koreans.
Nestea is the epitome of what "greatest of all time" discussions are all about. The thing with Nestea is that he didn't just win. He didn't even just dominate. He played a perfect tournament. ZERO maps lost. How the hell does that achievement measure up against long-term consistency and other criteria? It's so personal how these things are weighted. You can't just look at the trophy numbers and think you have a complete picture of what makes "greatness". Nestea punches above his weight in trophies because when he was dominant, there's a case to be made that his wins were so far ahead of the competition that the skill gap between him and his rivals was, for brief moment, at least, possibly the biggest gap we've ever seen. Who even comes close in this category? Maru? Serral? Dear? Byun? I can't think of who else would even be in the conversation, and any of those might be a stretch. Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero.
The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero.
The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
What? He beat MKP in the first GSL he won. He lost a lot to MVP, which is why MVP is the greatest player of WoL, and Nestea isn't. Can't remember any memorable series of Nestea vs MMA, but I know he beat MC a few times and Nestea won more than he lost, if I recall (I could ask aligulac, but can't really be bothered).
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero.
The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
What? He beat MKP in the first GSL he won. He lost a lot to MVP, which is why MVP is the greatest player of WoL, and Nestea isn't. Can't remember any memorable series of Nestea vs MMA, but I know he beat MC a few times and Nestea won more than he lost, if I recall (I could ask aligulac, but can't really be bothered).
I recommend people read that, and similar contemporary analyses of Nestea's play before spouting drivel about how he'd get outmicrod by everyone.
I am not sure NesTea should be a top8 player in a GOAT contest, but neither is soO to my eyes. People are so fond of HoTS post KeSpa Code S and downplay so hard early WoL Code S, even if the latter was a very competitive tournament if we look at how often champions were demoted to code A; many of the top players didn't last long but were nevertheless strong at the time, you need context to judge tournaments(Maru and Byun were already there and they did not win against supposedly weak players, how is that?).
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero.
The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
Inca wasn't the perfect run final tho, that was Losira, also Nestea did just fine vs MC, MMA, MKP or Mvp, at least in 2010-11.
The biggest downfall of Nestea is his longevity, even if we only take WOL he failled to pass the 60% win rate mark and after Blizzcon 2011 he had a couple of good run (IPL+Iron Squid) but nothing to crazy. He has a carreer a bit like ByuN or Rogue, good player with one year that's head and shoulder above the rest.
soO had a better overall win rate and stayed relevant for a much longer time.
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero.
The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
Inca wasn't the perfect run final tho, that was Losira, also Nestea did just fine vs MC, MMA, MKP or Mvp, at least in 2010-11.
The biggest downfall of Nestea is his longevity, even if we only take WOL he failled to pass the 60% win rate mark and after Blizzcon 2011 he had a couple of good run (IPL+Iron Squid) but nothing to crazy. He has a carreer a bit like ByuN or Rogue, good player with one year that's head and shoulder above the rest.
soO had a better overall win rate and stayed relevant for a much longer time.
While that's a good point I believe that the reason why people keep Nestea so high is following:
What's up?! IM NESTEA!!!! Nestea! You're a psychopath, Nestea! Nestea had just erazed quadrillion thors with 5 quadrillion banelings.
There may be more moments, but this comes up to many SC2 nerds when talking about memorable moments. That's how you achieve greatness and that's why Nestea is so loved. You speak these two lines and nerds know.
(close to this comes the Mvp Squirtle match or the Maru Dear match)
(also he created the Zerg but that was discussed before)
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero.
The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
What? He beat MKP in the first GSL he won. He lost a lot to MVP, which is why MVP is the greatest player of WoL, and Nestea isn't. Can't remember any memorable series of Nestea vs MMA, but I know he beat MC a few times and Nestea won more than he lost, if I recall (I could ask aligulac, but can't really be bothered).
I recommend people read that, and similar contemporary analyses of Nestea's play before spouting drivel about how he'd get outmicrod by everyone.
They didn't play much, his only win in a regular gsl against mc was in 2010.
2010 was already far different than 2011 where he struggled a lot against top terran, Mkp at the time strategy were very aggro with a lot of rush,Nestea defended it, good for him, it isn't saying much about his multitask who has been outclassed the year he dominated and which I mention, not his micro.
Mvp is the greatest player in wol not because (or at least not only) he won against nestea but because after dominated 2011 he stayed a top player in 2012 and almost won a gsl final against Life in bl/infestor era (+ his victory over squirtle), this gsl run alone beats anything nestea has done in my opinion, almost beating two of the greatest (rain/life) in a unfavorable meta is enormous. And you still downplay mc, 2 gsl, 1 final, consistent results oversea and being the best of his race for all wol era still puts you behind a guy who won 3 gsl the first year of the game before disappearing, weird.
Oh yeah, an article in 2011 talking about a victory in october 2010, not a very large perspective.
On July 09 2019 23:54 TheAnarchy wrote: Wasnt Life the greatest player of all???
He was, but Inno and Maru both surpassed him now. I would say he is quite close with sOs either at 3rd or 4th.
Depends how you look at it, no one of them did anything closely related to Life's play. The closest one is Maru beating Protosses without ghosts just by MMM.
The biggest feat of Life I remember is his killing blue flame hellions just by speedlings...
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero.
The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
What? He beat MKP in the first GSL he won. He lost a lot to MVP, which is why MVP is the greatest player of WoL, and Nestea isn't. Can't remember any memorable series of Nestea vs MMA, but I know he beat MC a few times and Nestea won more than he lost, if I recall (I could ask aligulac, but can't really be bothered).
I recommend people read that, and similar contemporary analyses of Nestea's play before spouting drivel about how he'd get outmicrod by everyone.
They didn't play much, his only win in a regular gsl against mc was in 2010.
2010 was already far different than 2011 where he struggled a lot against top terran, Mkp at the time strategy were very aggro with a lot of rush,Nestea defended it, good for him, it isn't saying much about his multitask who has been outclassed the year he dominated and which I mention, not his micro.
Mvp is the greatest player in wol not because (or at least not only) he won against nestea but because after dominated 2011 he stayed a top player in 2012 and almost won a gsl final against Life in bl/infestor era (+ his victory over squirtle), this gsl run alone beats anything nestea has done in my opinion, almost beating two of the greatest (rain/life) in a unfavorable meta is enormous. And you still downplay mc, 2 gsl, 1 final, consistent results oversea and being the best of his race for all wol era still puts you behind a guy who won 3 gsl the first year of the game before disappearing, weird.
Oh yeah, an article in 2011 talking about a victory in october 2010, not a very large perspective.
My only nitpick is that you use MC's 2 finals as an argument but they were earlier than Nestea's later finals. MC's overseas sucess hinged on whether other good koreans were in. If they were you pretty much knew MC wasn't taking it.
I just think anyone who says that Nestea is one of the top 10 GOAT also has to say that Serral is a top 10 GOAT, becuase Nestea basically had one great year (2011, little bit of end of 2010), where he wasn't even the best player of that year. Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best.
If you hold both perspectives, that's great on you. I think it's crazy, but to each their own.
Nestea also played at a time there was one GSL every month and a half, making it much easier to win GSLs.
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best.
I think you don't know what "unquestionable" means.
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: I just think anyone who says that Nestea is one of the top 10 GOAT also has to say that Serral is a top 10 GOAT, becuase Nestea basically had one great year (2011, little bit of end of 2010), where he wasn't even the best player of that year. Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best.
If you hold both perspectives, that's great on you. I think it's crazy, but to each their own.
Nestea also played at a time there was one GSL every month and a half, making it much easier to win GSLs.
Last year's best player was Maru. Serral only won the biggest prize pool.
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: I just think anyone who says that Nestea is one of the top 10 GOAT also has to say that Serral is a top 10 GOAT, becuase Nestea basically had one great year (2011, little bit of end of 2010), where he wasn't even the best player of that year. Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best.
If you hold both perspectives, that's great on you. I think it's crazy, but to each their own.
Nestea also played at a time there was one GSL every month and a half, making it much easier to win GSLs.
Last year's best player was Maru. Serral only won the biggest prize pool.
Serral waited in two finals for Maru to decide this head to head. Unfortunately, Maru couldn't make it to said finals.
On a more serious note, with the 2018-performances Maru and Serral had, it is basically impossible to determine who did better.
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: I just think anyone who says that Nestea is one of the top 10 GOAT also has to say that Serral is a top 10 GOAT, becuase Nestea basically had one great year (2011, little bit of end of 2010), where he wasn't even the best player of that year. Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best.
If you hold both perspectives, that's great on you. I think it's crazy, but to each their own.
Nestea also played at a time there was one GSL every month and a half, making it much easier to win GSLs.
Last year's best player was Maru. Serral only won the biggest prize pool.
Serral waited in two finals for Maru to decide this head to head. Unfortunately, Maru couldn't make it to said finals.
On a more serious note, with the 2018-performances Maru and Serral had, it is basically impossible to determine who did better.
Maru waited in 3 finals for Serral and he never showed up, Maru won against Serral @ WESG and won it a match later.
Serral won 2 Tournaments out of 10 possible where elite Koreans were(Maru 4). Serral missed 5 tournaments with Koreans(ST & Code S) - Maru 1(IEM PCh), Serral lost against Maru @ WESG in BO5(the only offline series they played). Serral had better IEM PCh(Maru MIA), same Katowice(both losing in RO4), better GSL vs TW and Blizzcon.
I may have forgotten some tournaments with Koreans, I didn't include WCS for the obvious - if he's the best he should be measured against the best who are Koreans.
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best.
I think you don't know what "unquestionable" means.
A few people on TL doesn't negate "nearly unquestionable".
I think there was a poll on this forum that had 80% of people saying Serral had the best year in 2018. You might be right. But your opinion is the few minority, not the majority.
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: I just think anyone who says that Nestea is one of the top 10 GOAT also has to say that Serral is a top 10 GOAT, becuase Nestea basically had one great year (2011, little bit of end of 2010), where he wasn't even the best player of that year. Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best.
If you hold both perspectives, that's great on you. I think it's crazy, but to each their own.
Nestea also played at a time there was one GSL every month and a half, making it much easier to win GSLs.
Last year's best player was Maru. Serral only won the biggest prize pool.
Serral waited in two finals for Maru to decide this head to head. Unfortunately, Maru couldn't make it to said finals.
On a more serious note, with the 2018-performances Maru and Serral had, it is basically impossible to determine who did better.
Maru waited in 3 finals for Serral and he never showed up Serral won 2 Tournaments out of 10 possible where elite Koreans were(Maru 4). Serral missed 5 tournaments with Koreans(ST & Code S) - Maru 1(IEM PCh), Serral lost against Maru @ WESG in BO5(the only offline series they played). Serral had better IEM PCh(Maru MIA), same Katowice(both losing in RO4), better GSL vs TW and Blizzcon.
I may have forgotten some tournaments with Koreans, I didn't include WCS for the obvious - if he's the best he should be measured against the best who are Koreans.
Which were?
Also Serral won 2 HSC, making it 4 won tournaments against elite Koreans
Also WESG 2017 was the last time Maru placed better than Serral. Since then Serral is obviously better
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: I just think anyone who says that Nestea is one of the top 10 GOAT also has to say that Serral is a top 10 GOAT, becuase Nestea basically had one great year (2011, little bit of end of 2010), where he wasn't even the best player of that year. Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best.
If you hold both perspectives, that's great on you. I think it's crazy, but to each their own.
Nestea also played at a time there was one GSL every month and a half, making it much easier to win GSLs.
Last year's best player was Maru. Serral only won the biggest prize pool.
Serral waited in two finals for Maru to decide this head to head. Unfortunately, Maru couldn't make it to said finals.
On a more serious note, with the 2018-performances Maru and Serral had, it is basically impossible to determine who did better.
Maru waited in 3 finals for Serral and he never showed up Serral won 2 Tournaments out of 10 possible where elite Koreans were(Maru 4). Serral missed 5 tournaments with Koreans(ST & Code S) - Maru 1(IEM PCh), Serral lost against Maru @ WESG in BO5(the only offline series they played). Serral had better IEM PCh(Maru MIA), same Katowice(both losing in RO4), better GSL vs TW and Blizzcon.
I may have forgotten some tournaments with Koreans, I didn't include WCS for the obvious - if he's the best he should be measured against the best who are Koreans.
Which were?
Also Serral won 2 HSC, making it 4 won tournaments against elite Koreans
Also WESG 2017 was the last time Maru placed better than Serral. Since then Serral is obviously better
Code S? (If we're talking about the top tournaments)
C'mon, see where the chain started and what we're reacting to. Fine, I give 1 HSC as it was in 2018 while the top Koreans part is questionable(the best Korean there was Innovation who hasn't show much in 2018)
We were talking about 2018. If you want include 2019 reuslts into discussion about who had the better results in 2018, we can do it with 1 more top win for Maru while 0 top wins for Serral. And yes, he had better WESG while Maru had, again, better Code S. (1:1 if we count in HSC which, again, was missing the top players - Classic, Dark to name the biggest names)
Edit> I don't want to downplay HSC much down, but the best player there was Serral as he was the top4 player at the time it was player and the rest of the top4 players of the time when it was played were not there. While this isn't his fault, he won what he should have won. HSC18 - Zest, Innovation - both great players, but they weren't exactly the best players at the end of 2018 while Serral was at the top. HSC19 - TY, Zest - while both are great players, they didn't have the results recently, did they? (the irony of Innovation rising up is great, so maybe TY will follow the pattern and rise again)
I value Serral as the top4 player of the world, if the rest of the top3 is missing he should win the tournament. That's why I don't like using WESG that much as there are only 3 Koreans and the qualification happens way too early(OTOH if I would be mean I would use WESG qualifier as a proper result as it's a Korean tournament in the Korean environment where we're looking for the best )
Another edit> Especially for Take & Naruto - guys, you're doing a great job, no offense against your tournament and player choices. I know it's hard to get the top there. And when you're not playing a mirror match I usually tune in
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: I just think anyone who says that Nestea is one of the top 10 GOAT also has to say that Serral is a top 10 GOAT, becuase Nestea basically had one great year (2011, little bit of end of 2010), where he wasn't even the best player of that year. Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best.
If you hold both perspectives, that's great on you. I think it's crazy, but to each their own.
Nestea also played at a time there was one GSL every month and a half, making it much easier to win GSLs.
Last year's best player was Maru. Serral only won the biggest prize pool.
Serral waited in two finals for Maru to decide this head to head. Unfortunately, Maru couldn't make it to said finals.
On a more serious note, with the 2018-performances Maru and Serral had, it is basically impossible to determine who did better.
Maru waited in 3 finals for Serral and he never showed up Serral won 2 Tournaments out of 10 possible where elite Koreans were(Maru 4). Serral missed 5 tournaments with Koreans(ST & Code S) - Maru 1(IEM PCh), Serral lost against Maru @ WESG in BO5(the only offline series they played). Serral had better IEM PCh(Maru MIA), same Katowice(both losing in RO4), better GSL vs TW and Blizzcon.
I may have forgotten some tournaments with Koreans, I didn't include WCS for the obvious - if he's the best he should be measured against the best who are Koreans.
Which were?
Also Serral won 2 HSC, making it 4 won tournaments against elite Koreans
Also WESG 2017 was the last time Maru placed better than Serral. Since then Serral is obviously better
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best.
I think you don't know what "unquestionable" means.
A few people on TL doesn't negate "nearly unquestionable".
I think there was a poll on this forum that had 80% of people saying Serral had the best year in 2018. You might be right. But your opinion is the few minority, not the majority.
He may have had his best year in 2018, but that doesn't mean he was the best, let alone unquestionably/ nearly-unquestionably the best. The past few comments (and literally an entire year of threads and debating this topic) are full of reasonable counterpoints to your assertion. Plenty of TLers thought that Serral was the best player in 2018, but plenty didn't.
I literally made hundred of posts on why Serral was the best in 2018, I am now frankly bored.
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it. Get over it, guys, your GOAT was not even the best in his most dominating year. The polls Serral lost had 50 votes, the ones he overwhelmingly won had thousands.
Also, do you really believe top 35 is comprised almost entirely of koreans, Chairo? Being biased is one thing, but that's unreal. Armani and DRG surely are dominating players in 2019, not even mentioning how untouchable Spear is against non koreans...
On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote: I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it.
That's a point against Serral for not participating in a stacked, historically top-tier competition, not against Maru. And it's Code S; it's not exactly an irrelevant tournament.
Is that what a lot of these arguments boil down to? Tournament X becomes irrelevant in assessing how good a player is, just because the player I prefer didn't attend, and we should only look at the tournaments my player played at?
Also, do you really believe top 35 is comprised almost entirely of koreans, Chairo?
Are you referring to when he responded that the remaining 35 of the top 50 would therefore be Koreans if he humored the assertion that 15 of the top 50 would be foreigners? Because that's just a reasonable dichotomy. And that's different than your question here, that the top 35 (not top 50) is comprised almost entirely of Koreans, as he didn't claim that all of the foreigners were necessarily #36-50 in the top 50, while the Koreans held all the top spots.
On July 10 2019 18:58 Harris1st wrote: In a "who was best in 2018" discussion, it is impossible to not mention Serral
Agreed, although keep in mind that the original assertion wasn't that Serral was merely part of the conversation for #1 player in 2018, but that he was definitely ("nearly unquestionably") the #1 player. That's obviously false.
I think focusing on the final few players in this GoaT competition is what's important for this thread though... which means there's really no need to mention Serral.
On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote: I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it.
That's a point against Serral for not participating in a stacked, historically top-tier competition, not against Maru. And it's Code S; it's not exactly an irrelevant tournament.
Is that what a lot of these arguments boil down to? Tournament X becomes irrelevant in assessing how good a player is, just because the player I prefer didn't attend, and we should only look at the tournaments my player played at?
Also, do you really believe top 35 is comprised almost entirely of koreans, Chairo?
Are you referring to when he responded that the remaining 35 of the top 50 would therefore be Koreans if he humored the assertion that 15 of the top 50 would be foreigners? Because that's just a reasonable dichotomy. And that's different than your question here, that the top 35 (not top 50) is comprised almost entirely of Koreans, as he didn't claim that all of the foreigners were necessarily #36-50 in the top 50, while the Koreans held all the top spots.
On July 10 2019 18:58 Harris1st wrote: In a "who was best in 2018" discussion, it is impossible to not mention Serral
Agreed, although keep in mind that the original assertion wasn't that Serral was merely part of the conversation for #1 player in 2018, but that he was definitely ("nearly unquestionably") the #1 player. That's obviously false.
I think focusing on the final few players in this GoaT competition is what's important for this thread though... which means there's really no need to mention Serral.
It's senseless to say that Maru did better in Code S. This doesn't mean Code S is not relevant, but it can't be used to compare Serral and Maru, since Serral did not play there; and it cannot be used as a point agains Serral, who is not supposed to be playing in Code S(he theorically might, but it's not like he's korean).
Serral was most likely the best player in 2018, you value tournaments differently so I see how you can disagree but you shouldn't be surprised when people refers to him as such.
Charoisaur didn't say that directly, but he was heavily implying the mere number of korean progamers left was determining the amount of foreigners in the current top 50; this, for sure, is obviously false.
On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote: I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it.
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it.
On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote: I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it.
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it.
I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually.
What's up?! IM NESTEA!!!! Nestea! You're a psychopath, Nestea! Nestea had just erazed quadrillion thors with 5 quadrillion banelings.
(also he created the Zerg but that was discussed before)
Artosis' reverence and enthusiasm for NesTea was one of my favorite memories from early GSL.
At least it was somewhat justified. His unending faith in Clide, however...
It's funny because I remember Clide as maybe the first player who started to make SC2 play look like it could become as refined as BW. It felt like he was ahead of the pack in some way that never fully translated into results. I don't even know how to fully encapsulate it except to say that as I remember it, his play started to really "look like a pro" before anyone else, but it wasn't consistent. Cliiiiiiiide?!
On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote: I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it.
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it.
I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually.
His argument is consistent with what you're saying though; apparently you can't state that Serral is a better player than anyone who hasn't played in the exact same tournament as Serral, which is clearly absurd.
On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote: I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it.
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it.
I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually.
I can't play WCS, because of my school obligations, but I would be very glad to go to Korea and stomp Code S to prove how fucking easy that region is.
PM me if you are interested in donating to the cause
On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote: I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it.
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it.
I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually.
His argument is consistent with what you're saying though; apparently you can't state that Serral is a better player than anyone who hasn't played in the exact same tournament as Serral, which is clearly absurd.
But I digress; let's focus on the GoaT candidates
No, it's not. Serral and Maru both played in multiple tournaments throughout the year so that we can compare them directly, and we can also try to assess how relevant is Code S compared to WCS; the absurd part is saying that one of them did better than the other in a competition in which the latter didn't play(Maru being better than Serral in Code S, as well as Serral doing better than Maru in Circuit's stops).
On a side note, I am sure Ej will soon find a team willing to pay for his trip in Korea, and I'm definitely excited to see Charoisaur restoring Terran dominance at Montreal.
On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote: I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it.
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it.
I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually.
His argument is consistent with what you're saying though; apparently you can't state that Serral is a better player than anyone who hasn't played in the exact same tournament as Serral, which is clearly absurd.
But I digress; let's focus on the GoaT candidates
No, it's not. Serral and Maru both played in multiple tournaments throughout the year so that we can compare them directly, and we can also try to assess how relevant is Code S compared to WCS; the absurd part is saying that one of them did better than the other in a competition in which the latter didn't play(Maru being better than Serral in Code S, as well as Serral doing better than Maru in Circuit's stops).
On a side note, I am sure Ej will soon find a team willing to pay for his trip in Korea, and I'm definitely excited to see Charoisaur restoring Terran dominance at Montreal.
You don't seem to understand what "compare directly means", we could compare them directly if they actually played each other. They did not.
Using your logic we can directly compare Marus GSL runs and final wins vs Stats, Zest and TY with Serrals in WCS vs Showtime, Mana, Has Reynor.
Besides you and Dave4 there is clear consensus which achivments were most impressive, its not even worth discussion even if you and Dave keep on trying.
On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote: I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it.
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Serral did better in WCS" is, considering I never played it.
I am eager to watch your games next season, I'm sure you will take down Serral eventually.
His argument is consistent with what you're saying though; apparently you can't state that Serral is a better player than anyone who hasn't played in the exact same tournament as Serral, which is clearly absurd.
But I digress; let's focus on the GoaT candidates
No, it's not. Serral and Maru both played in multiple tournaments throughout the year so that we can compare them directly, and we can also try to assess how relevant is Code S compared to WCS; the absurd part is saying that one of them did better than the other in a competition in which the latter didn't play(Maru being better than Serral in Code S, as well as Serral doing better than Maru in Circuit's stops).
On a side note, I am sure Ej will soon find a team willing to pay for his trip in Korea, and I'm definitely excited to see Charoisaur restoring Terran dominance at Montreal.
You don't seem to understand what "compare directly means", we could compare them directly if they actually played each other. They did not.
Using your logic we can directly compare Marus GSL runs and final wins vs Stats, Zest and TY with Serrals in WCS vs Showtime, Mana, Has Reynor.
Besides you and Dave4 there is clear consensus which achivments were most impressive, its not even worth discussion even if you and Dave keep on trying.
Either I explained myself horrendously or you didn't understand anything; in both cases a clarification is needed. We can directly compare Serral's and Maru's results in the tournaments they both played in last year, which were Katowice, WESG, GSL vs the World and Blizzcon.
Yes, the consensus is clear and it was mirrored by TL's award for best player of 2018; I don't really have any desire of discussing it any further.
On topic, NesTea was more influential and dominant while soO was relevant for a way longer and managed to become a worthy heir of Yellow; I think I wouldn't have placed any them in the top8.
I don't think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments. SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close.
On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote: I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments. SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close.
But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year.
On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote: I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments. SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close.
But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year.
He absolutely does, but Nestea was ahead of the curve hugely strategically in his best periods. soO is a great player too but standing atop the shoulders of giants.
For whatever reason the BW scene seems to be able to recognise the greatness of their early stars more than the likes of this competition has tended to thus far.
Like Boxer is still an undisputed hall of famer, whereas here there seems a real trend to favouring post Kespa switch players who did well in that era:
On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote: I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments. SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close.
But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year.
Oups the phrase should read:
"I don't think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO."
On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote: I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments. SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close.
But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year.
He absolutely does, but Nestea was ahead of the curve hugely strategically in his best periods. soO is a great player too but standing atop the shoulders of giants.
For whatever reason the BW scene seems to be able to recognise the greatness of their early stars more than the likes of this competition has tended to thus far.
Like Boxer is still an undisputed hall of famer, whereas here there seems a real trend to favouring post Kespa switch players who did well in that era:
A big part of it is that the evolution of SC2 was much quicker than BW it took a good number of years for the meta to settle into something resembling the pro scene. In SC2 it was much quicker, a lot of the work was already done because of BW and WC3 (ex using the keyboard may be a good idea) and because of the internet and the pro scene everyone evolved around the same speed.
On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote: I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments. SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close.
But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year.
He absolutely does, but Nestea was ahead of the curve hugely strategically in his best periods. soO is a great player too but standing atop the shoulders of giants.
For whatever reason the BW scene seems to be able to recognise the greatness of their early stars more than the likes of this competition has tended to thus far.
Like Boxer is still an undisputed hall of famer, whereas here there seems a real trend to favouring post Kespa switch players who did well in that era:
That's because the top player from that era wasn't Nestea, it was Mvp. For BW, who after Boxer do fans consider an all time GOAT from that era? Yellow? Garimto? Reach?
Polls are open Sunday july 14th around 11 pm EST Theses polls are closed Articles are gonna come tomorrow morning, a bit to winded to finish them tonight.
On July 11 2019 02:02 Wombat_NI wrote: Godwin’s changed his law and it’s now applicable to not just Hitler but Serral’s merits
Serral's Law: As the length of a TL discussion approaches infinity, the probability of said discussion degenerating into an argument about Serral approaches 1.
Xain0n's Corollary: The probability turns to 1 immediately in the presence of Xain0n.
On July 11 2019 02:02 Wombat_NI wrote: Godwin’s changed his law and it’s now applicable to not just Hitler but Serral’s merits
Serral's Law: As the length of a TL discussion approaches infinity, the probability of said discussion degenerating into an argument about Serral approaches 1.
Xain0n's Corollary: The probability turns to 1 immediately in the presence of Xain0n.
I think stats is the best Protoss of LotV and definitely deserves his top 8, but I also think we all know by now that nobody is going to survive a voting encounter with Maru, INnoVation, or Mvp until they knock each other out.
On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote: I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments. SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close.
But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year.
He absolutely does, but Nestea was ahead of the curve hugely strategically in his best periods. soO is a great player too but standing atop the shoulders of giants.
For whatever reason the BW scene seems to be able to recognise the greatness of their early stars more than the likes of this competition has tended to thus far.
Like Boxer is still an undisputed hall of famer, whereas here there seems a real trend to favouring post Kespa switch players who did well in that era:
That's because the top player from that era wasn't Nestea, it was Mvp. For BW, who after Boxer do fans consider an all time GOAT from that era? Yellow? Garimto? Reach?
I only followed SC1 / BW loosely before Flash / JD / Bisu / ... Since the only name I know from the mentioned above is Yellow, I'd say it is Yellow :D
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero.
The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
What? He beat MKP in the first GSL he won. He lost a lot to MVP, which is why MVP is the greatest player of WoL, and Nestea isn't. Can't remember any memorable series of Nestea vs MMA, but I know he beat MC a few times and Nestea won more than he lost, if I recall (I could ask aligulac, but can't really be bothered).
I recommend people read that, and similar contemporary analyses of Nestea's play before spouting drivel about how he'd get outmicrod by everyone.
They didn't play much, his only win in a regular gsl against mc was in 2010.
2010 was already far different than 2011 where he struggled a lot against top terran, Mkp at the time strategy were very aggro with a lot of rush,Nestea defended it, good for him, it isn't saying much about his multitask who has been outclassed the year he dominated and which I mention, not his micro.
Mvp is the greatest player in wol not because (or at least not only) he won against nestea but because after dominated 2011 he stayed a top player in 2012 and almost won a gsl final against Life in bl/infestor era (+ his victory over squirtle), this gsl run alone beats anything nestea has done in my opinion, almost beating two of the greatest (rain/life) in a unfavorable meta is enormous. And you still downplay mc, 2 gsl, 1 final, consistent results oversea and being the best of his race for all wol era still puts you behind a guy who won 3 gsl the first year of the game before disappearing, weird.
Oh yeah, an article in 2011 talking about a victory in october 2010, not a very large perspective.
My only nitpick is that you use MC's 2 finals as an argument but they were earlier than Nestea's later finals. MC's overseas sucess hinged on whether other good koreans were in. If they were you pretty much knew MC wasn't taking it.
I was quite a antifan of MC and protoss in general so I might have missed some of his finals but I am pretty sure he was a finalist in mid 2012 against Seed. For oversea, you exagerate a bit, I am pretty sure if you go on the tl thread at the time you will see him consider as a favorite for pretty much every tournaments except at the end of 2012 when no protoss and terran other than parting with his soul train could do much.
On July 11 2019 02:02 Wombat_NI wrote: Godwin’s changed his law and it’s now applicable to not just Hitler but Serral’s merits
Serral's Law: As the length of a TL discussion approaches infinity, the probability of said discussion degenerating into an argument about Serral approaches 1.
Xain0n's Corollary: The probability turns to 1 immediately in the presence of Xain0n.
It's pretty high without me as well, considering I was not the one speaking of Serral this time; you'd better add "in the absence of Xain0n, the discussion will mostly consist in escalating korean elitits posts each increasingly diminishing Serral's achievement".
Maru vs Stats and TaeJa vs NesTea are pretty onesided.
On July 11 2019 18:51 Acrofales wrote: For some reason 4 ppl voted stats though. Would be interesting to know why.
Mainly because I know Maru will win anyway. But in all seriousness, while Maru's four GSLs are incredible Stats has been to a premier tournament final every year for the past four years. He has two starleagues and 11 finals appearances. That had to count for something.
On July 11 2019 18:51 Acrofales wrote: For some reason 4 ppl voted stats though. Would be interesting to know why.
Mainly because I know Mary will win anyway. But in all seriousness, while Maru's four GSLs are incredible Stats has been to a premier tournament final every year for the past four years. He has two starleagues and 11 finals appearances. That had to count for something.
That's why he's in the top8 Maru also made OSL and SSL in HotS while beating Innovation in one of the fastest BO7 ever
Well at this point the bracket is pointless anyway since everyone knows it's gonna be an Inno-Maru final, it would be more interesting to see how the other 6 players will be ranked.
On July 11 2019 19:40 yht9657 wrote: Well at this point the bracket is pointless anyway since everyone knows it's gonna be an Inno-Maru final, it would be more interesting to see how the other 6 players will be ranked.
If the way the polls are written follow bracket, then the next matches are Inno v soO Maru v Mvp
It's not even just Maru's four consecutive GSLs that put him ahead. He already had legendary OSL + SSL wins, more GSL ro4s than almost anyone else, was consistently between #1 and #3 terran for over six years (and more consistant than INno or TY during those times). Plus he's arguably the best proleague player of all time.
Even if he'd retired before 2018 he'd still beat Stats.
On July 11 2019 22:25 Fango wrote: It's not even just Maru's four consecutive GSLs that put him ahead. He already had legendary OSL + SSL wins, more GSL ro4s than almost anyone else, was consistently between #1 and #3 terran for over six years (and more consistant than INno or TY during those times). Plus he's arguably the best proleague player of all time.
Even if he'd retired before 2018 he'd still beat Stats.
If Maru retired before 2018 Stats would have been so much ahead it would be laughable to even compare them.
On July 11 2019 22:25 Fango wrote: It's not even just Maru's four consecutive GSLs that put him ahead. He already had legendary OSL + SSL wins, more GSL ro4s than almost anyone else, was consistently between #1 and #3 terran for over six years (and more consistant than INno or TY during those times). Plus he's arguably the best proleague player of all time.
Even if he'd retired before 2018 he'd still beat Stats.
If Maru retired before 2018 Stats would have been so much ahead it would be laughable to even compare them.
If Maru had retired before 2018, good chance Stats picks up at least one more GSL, so who knows.
On July 11 2019 19:40 yht9657 wrote: Well at this point the bracket is pointless anyway since everyone knows it's gonna be an Inno-Maru final, it would be more interesting to see how the other 6 players will be ranked.
If the way the polls are written follow bracket, then the next matches are Inno v soO Maru v Mvp
I wouldn't be so sure about this.
Well considering I had people vote between Zest and Kiwikaki I don't think I will stop now Also write-up are finally done
On July 11 2019 22:25 Fango wrote: It's not even just Maru's four consecutive GSLs that put him ahead. He already had legendary OSL + SSL wins, more GSL ro4s than almost anyone else, was consistently between #1 and #3 terran for over six years (and more consistant than INno or TY during those times). Plus he's arguably the best proleague player of all time.
Even if he'd retired before 2018 he'd still beat Stats.
If Maru retired before 2018 Stats would have been so much ahead it would be laughable to even compare them.
Only if Stats picked up a bunch of wins in Maru's absence. Pre-2018 did people really have Stats higher in the GOAT list than Maru?
Maru has done very well for himself lately, but he is not my number 1. He is the king of prep style in an era where there is only one team house. In my view you simply can't ignore that fact. It's not a level playing field when he can draw on so many other full time resources for map planning, scouting and replicating opponents' builds, and working out patterns in their play.
It's no surprise that Maru can win under the GSL planning format but can't win weekenders that test your underlying ability to endure a gauntlet of many different players with different styles.
Innovation has always been my favorite player since he burst onto the scene. my TvZ has always been 20 pct higher than any matchup, except for ZvT. his parade push was Lord.
And yet, ever since Maru upset innovation in OSL 2013, I've wanted to see Maru win, even when they play.
how he nonchalantly shakes his wrists after a win. how we watched a shy kid grow up.
innovations peaks are prolly higher. but innovation and getting knocked out by an inferior protoss, name a more iconic duo.
Maru is prolly the most feared player in any GSL. how many times has he made someone look like they didn't even belong in pro play? that's the basis of his 4-0 sweeps in under an hour of play.
Maru is the best player, with inno a close second.
On July 13 2019 07:11 Dave4 wrote: Maru has done very well for himself lately, but he is not my number 1. He is the king of prep style in an era where there is only one team house. In my view you simply can't ignore that fact. It's not a level playing field when he can draw on so many other full time resources for map planning, scouting and replicating opponents' builds, and working out patterns in their play.
It's no surprise that Maru can win under the GSL planning format but can't win weekenders that test your underlying ability to endure a gauntlet of many different players with different styles.
On July 13 2019 07:11 Dave4 wrote: Maru has done very well for himself lately, but he is not my number 1. He is the king of prep style in an era where there is only one team house. In my view you simply can't ignore that fact. It's not a level playing field when he can draw on so many other full time resources for map planning, scouting and replicating opponents' builds, and working out patterns in their play.
It's no surprise that Maru can win under the GSL planning format but can't win weekenders that test your underlying ability to endure a gauntlet of many different players with different styles.
To me Stats has shown he can do both on his own.
Well, he was also destroying everyone in Proleague in an era when everyone good was in a teamhouse, while also winning OSL, SSL, achieving multiple GSL top4 and getting second in IEM Taipei only because he didnt close his depos against Life in 2 or 3 games (he should have won Taipei was the superior player there by far).
So Maru would definitely be in the top 10 regardless of the 4 GSL wins in a row. That just puts him to the top, alongside Innovation.
On July 15 2019 14:11 esReveR wrote: @ OP: What about MVP's 2011 WCG win?
How can I forget about it! I also forgot about Maru Asian Games win.
(But seriously tho I don't list every win cause there's just a lot for some, so I tend to focus on what I think were the most impressive, in which kind WCG as a kind of Blizzcon could have been it I guess, but for exemple Mvp also has an IEM and Zest as a Master Coliseum)
On July 15 2019 14:11 esReveR wrote: @ OP: What about MVP's 2011 WCG win?
How can I forget about it! I also forgot about Maru Asian Games win.
(But seriously tho I don't list every win cause there's just a lot for some, so I tend to focus on what I think were the most impressive, in which kind WCG as a kind of Blizzcon could have been it I guess, but for exemple Mvp also has an IEM and Zest as a Master Coliseum)
I don't think Master's Coliseum or Asian Games can be compared to IEM and WCG; also, since we are entering the latest stages of the competition, listing all the victories shouldn't add too much work. Your effort is, in any of case, greatly appreciated.
1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
On July 15 2019 18:05 Harris1st wrote: Voted for Zest cause we need a Protoss in Top 4 :D
I did to actually, I think Zest is the GOAT toss while mvp is my 3rd terran, and I feel like we are way to close to have 1-2-3 as T haha.
This reasoning doesn't make sense. If the top 3 GOATs are Terrans then so be it. Personally, I think the top 3 GOATs are 2 terrans and a zerg (who shall not be named), but lacking that certain zerg, it's 3 terrans. I don't really see how you can make a case for Zest being greater than Mvp unless you put a huuuuuge value on longevity (even if it's longevity without top results).
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
Maru was a already a GSL and an SSL champ, proleague best terran and should have won IEM Tapei + he had 4 Korean tournament semi final as well as a blizzcon semi, all of it at 16 years old, if that's second tiers I don't know who's suppose to be first tiers...
On July 15 2019 18:05 Harris1st wrote: Voted for Zest cause we need a Protoss in Top 4 :D
I did to actually, I think Zest is the GOAT toss while mvp is my 3rd terran, and I feel like we are way to close to have 1-2-3 as T haha.
This reasoning doesn't make sense. If the top 3 GOATs are Terrans then so be it. Personally, I think the top 3 GOATs are 2 terrans and a zerg (who shall not be named), but lacking that certain zerg, it's 3 terrans. I don't really see how you can make a case for Zest being greater than Mvp unless you put a huuuuuge value on longevity (even if it's longevity without top results).
Well I think Zest is the person who was able to find the most success playing Starcraft as Protoss. While Mvp who had probably more success isn't the one who's the best at playing Starcraft as Terran.
Sure both are playing Starcraft but they are playing very different version of it, I think beeing the greatest has to go to the one who played his version better than anyone else. Still it's a close one for me.
On July 15 2019 18:05 Harris1st wrote: Voted for Zest cause we need a Protoss in Top 4 :D
I did to actually, I think Zest is the GOAT toss while mvp is my 3rd terran, and I feel like we are way to close to have 1-2-3 as T haha.
This reasoning doesn't make sense. If the top 3 GOATs are Terrans then so be it. Personally, I think the top 3 GOATs are 2 terrans and a zerg (who shall not be named), but lacking that certain zerg, it's 3 terrans. I don't really see how you can make a case for Zest being greater than Mvp unless you put a huuuuuge value on longevity (even if it's longevity without top results).
Competed in a more competitive era, longevity, Proleague results, same amount of championships in korean tournaments. It's really not as much of a stretch.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
Maru was a already a GSL and an SSL champ, proleague best terran and should have won IEM Tapei + he had 4 Korean tournament semi final as well as a blizzcon semi, all of it at 16 years old, if that's second tiers I don't know who's suppose to be first tiers...
On July 15 2019 18:05 Harris1st wrote: Voted for Zest cause we need a Protoss in Top 4 :D
I did to actually, I think Zest is the GOAT toss while mvp is my 3rd terran, and I feel like we are way to close to have 1-2-3 as T haha.
This reasoning doesn't make sense. If the top 3 GOATs are Terrans then so be it. Personally, I think the top 3 GOATs are 2 terrans and a zerg (who shall not be named), but lacking that certain zerg, it's 3 terrans. I don't really see how you can make a case for Zest being greater than Mvp unless you put a huuuuuge value on longevity (even if it's longevity without top results).
Well I think Zest is the person who was able to find the most success playing Starcraft as Protoss. While Mvp who had probably more success isn't the one who's the best at playing Starcraft as Terran.
Sure both are playing Starcraft but they are playing very different version of it, I think beeing the greatest has to go to the one who played his version better than anyone else. Still it's a close one for me.
After Life retired, people started playing LoTV, an entirely different game; also, foreigners beating koreans=low level of play? Old and stale, if ever was true.
Zest being the best Protoss and Mvp not being the best Terran are reasonable, yet debatable, claims.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
Maru was a already a GSL and an SSL champ, proleague best terran and should have won IEM Tapei + he had 4 Korean tournament semi final as well as a blizzcon semi, all of it at 16 years old, if that's second tiers I don't know who's suppose to be first tiers...
On July 15 2019 18:05 Harris1st wrote: Voted for Zest cause we need a Protoss in Top 4 :D
I did to actually, I think Zest is the GOAT toss while mvp is my 3rd terran, and I feel like we are way to close to have 1-2-3 as T haha.
This reasoning doesn't make sense. If the top 3 GOATs are Terrans then so be it. Personally, I think the top 3 GOATs are 2 terrans and a zerg (who shall not be named), but lacking that certain zerg, it's 3 terrans. I don't really see how you can make a case for Zest being greater than Mvp unless you put a huuuuuge value on longevity (even if it's longevity without top results).
Well I think Zest is the person who was able to find the most success playing Starcraft as Protoss. While Mvp who had probably more success isn't the one who's the best at playing Starcraft as Terran.
Sure both are playing Starcraft but they are playing very different version of it, I think beeing the greatest has to go to the one who played his version better than anyone else. Still it's a close one for me.
Then you should probably have made a different tournament. I think we can definitely have a discussion about GPOAT, GTOAT and GZOAT, but that isn't this one. Even though Mvp's biggest successes came during GomTvT, terran wasn't actually that dominating. It just so happened that the best players of the time mostly played Terran. And the best of those was Mvp. Yes, both Innovation and Maru have since then overtaken him in most metrics (although Mvp should still be credited for figuring out most of the core mechanics of how to Terran in SC2), so he is only the 3rd best Terran. He's still better than all the Protoss. Both in what he meant to the game and in number of prizes he won.
Not sure I even agree with you that Zest is the GPOAT. sOs is, imho, greater. But sOs got knocked out last round by, you guessed it, Mvp
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
Maru was a already a GSL and an SSL champ, proleague best terran and should have won IEM Tapei + he had 4 Korean tournament semi final as well as a blizzcon semi, all of it at 16 years old, if that's second tiers I don't know who's suppose to be first tiers...
Also "retired"
On July 16 2019 02:30 Acrofales wrote:
On July 16 2019 01:08 Nakajin wrote:
On July 15 2019 18:05 Harris1st wrote: Voted for Zest cause we need a Protoss in Top 4 :D
I did to actually, I think Zest is the GOAT toss while mvp is my 3rd terran, and I feel like we are way to close to have 1-2-3 as T haha.
This reasoning doesn't make sense. If the top 3 GOATs are Terrans then so be it. Personally, I think the top 3 GOATs are 2 terrans and a zerg (who shall not be named), but lacking that certain zerg, it's 3 terrans. I don't really see how you can make a case for Zest being greater than Mvp unless you put a huuuuuge value on longevity (even if it's longevity without top results).
Well I think Zest is the person who was able to find the most success playing Starcraft as Protoss. While Mvp who had probably more success isn't the one who's the best at playing Starcraft as Terran.
Sure both are playing Starcraft but they are playing very different version of it, I think beeing the greatest has to go to the one who played his version better than anyone else. Still it's a close one for me.
Then you should probably have made a different tournament. I think we can definitely have a discussion about GPOAT, GTOAT and GZOAT, but that isn't this one. Even though Mvp's biggest successes came during GomTvT, terran wasn't actually that dominating. It just so happened that the best players of the time mostly played Terran. And the best of those was Mvp. Yes, both Innovation and Maru have since then overtaken him in most metrics (although Mvp should still be credited for figuring out most of the core mechanics of how to Terran in SC2), so he is only the 3rd best Terran. He's still better than all the Protoss. Both in what he meant to the game and in number of prizes he won.
Not sure I even agree with you that Zest is the GPOAT. sOs is, imho, greater. But sOs got knocked out last round by, you guessed it, Mvp
Specifically, it wasn't that Terran just had the best players during GomTvT, it was that they had the most mapped out race, and that was because Mvp mapped out the whole playstyle, while even players like Nestea and MC left great areas of their race unmapped, so players had a harder time performing with those races.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
Maru was a already a GSL and an SSL champ, proleague best terran and should have won IEM Tapei + he had 4 Korean tournament semi final as well as a blizzcon semi, all of it at 16 years old, if that's second tiers I don't know who's suppose to be first tiers...
Also "retired"
On July 16 2019 02:30 Acrofales wrote:
On July 16 2019 01:08 Nakajin wrote:
On July 15 2019 18:05 Harris1st wrote: Voted for Zest cause we need a Protoss in Top 4 :D
I did to actually, I think Zest is the GOAT toss while mvp is my 3rd terran, and I feel like we are way to close to have 1-2-3 as T haha.
This reasoning doesn't make sense. If the top 3 GOATs are Terrans then so be it. Personally, I think the top 3 GOATs are 2 terrans and a zerg (who shall not be named), but lacking that certain zerg, it's 3 terrans. I don't really see how you can make a case for Zest being greater than Mvp unless you put a huuuuuge value on longevity (even if it's longevity without top results).
Well I think Zest is the person who was able to find the most success playing Starcraft as Protoss. While Mvp who had probably more success isn't the one who's the best at playing Starcraft as Terran.
Sure both are playing Starcraft but they are playing very different version of it, I think beeing the greatest has to go to the one who played his version better than anyone else. Still it's a close one for me.
Then you should probably have made a different tournament. I think we can definitely have a discussion about GPOAT, GTOAT and GZOAT, but that isn't this one. Even though Mvp's biggest successes came during GomTvT, terran wasn't actually that dominating. It just so happened that the best players of the time mostly played Terran. And the best of those was Mvp. Yes, both Innovation and Maru have since then overtaken him in most metrics (although Mvp should still be credited for figuring out most of the core mechanics of how to Terran in SC2), so he is only the 3rd best Terran. He's still better than all the Protoss. Both in what he meant to the game and in number of prizes he won.
Not sure I even agree with you that Zest is the GPOAT. sOs is, imho, greater. But sOs got knocked out last round by, you guessed it, Mvp
Specifically, it wasn't that Terran just had the best players during GomTvT, it was that they had the most mapped out race, and that was because Mvp mapped out the whole playstyle, while even players like Nestea and MC left great areas of their race unmapped, so players had a harder time performing with those races.
That is actually a really interesting argument, I've never thought about it in that way before. The hurdle was more that there was few terrrans which good enough mechanics to really get the most out of terran while the other races were more in the dark. Interesting perspective.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
I would like to know his reasoning for having Zest AND TaeJa over Maru. I also think the words they are looking for is "Banned indefinitely."
On July 16 2019 21:38 Harris1st wrote: Seems like MVP will take this and will be the third Terran in the Top 4
Actually should the upper bracket be Inno-soO and Taeja-Nestea we would have 4 Terrans in top 4, such a missed opportunity.
No worries, this isn't far what a Brood War poll would have looked like. It's doubtful a Protoss touches the top 4 and arguably 3 Terrans could occupy the top 3. It's so similar too because you have to eliminate arguably Zerg best Savior from consideration too.
On July 16 2019 21:38 Harris1st wrote: Seems like MVP will take this and will be the third Terran in the Top 4
Actually should the upper bracket be Inno-soO and Taeja-Nestea we would have 4 Terrans in top 4, such a missed opportunity.
No worries, this isn't far what a Brood War poll would have looked like. It's doubtful a Protoss touches the top 4 and arguably 3 Terrans could occupy the top 3. It's so similar too because you have to eliminate arguably Zerg best Savior from consideration too.
With the notable difference Terran dominated Brood War in terms of Starleague titles, whereas Premiers are distributed pretty evenly in Sc2(Protoss ahead by two if I remember correctly, out of 250+ tournaments); curiously, in Korean leagues only, Terran won a lot, almost like in BW but that's not really the case in international tournaments(winning only two BlizzCon and one IEM Katowice, for example).
On July 16 2019 21:38 Harris1st wrote: Seems like MVP will take this and will be the third Terran in the Top 4
Actually should the upper bracket be Inno-soO and Taeja-Nestea we would have 4 Terrans in top 4, such a missed opportunity.
No worries, this isn't far what a Brood War poll would have looked like. It's doubtful a Protoss touches the top 4 and arguably 3 Terrans could occupy the top 3. It's so similar too because you have to eliminate arguably Zerg best Savior from consideration too.
With the notable difference Terran dominated Brood War in terms of Starleague titles, whereas Premiers are distributed pretty evenly in Sc2(Protoss ahead by two if I remember correctly, out of 250+ tournaments); curiously, in Korean leagues only, Terran won a lot, almost like in BW but that's not really the case in international tournaments(winning only two BlizzCon and one IEM Katowice, for example).
Yeah this really applies strictly to counting Korean only tournaments. Still is amazing how similar the histories look. Protoss having so many dragons in SC2, but none reaching god level like MVP, Inno, soO (or Life), Maru.
To me, Zest vs Mvp was actually kind of a tough call... I have trouble justifying votes for NesTea and Mvp since their reigns of dominance ended so long ago. They were absolutely the two most celebrated players of WoL, but MvP has been irrelevant for 2/3rds of the SC2s lifespan and NesTea for even longer than that. Mvp was the GOAT for his era, but for all of SC2? I'm not so sure.
On July 16 2019 21:38 Harris1st wrote: Seems like MVP will take this and will be the third Terran in the Top 4
Actually should the upper bracket be Inno-soO and Taeja-Nestea we would have 4 Terrans in top 4, such a missed opportunity.
No worries, this isn't far what a Brood War poll would have looked like. It's doubtful a Protoss touches the top 4 and arguably 3 Terrans could occupy the top 3. It's so similar too because you have to eliminate arguably Zerg best Savior from consideration too.
With the notable difference Terran dominated Brood War in terms of Starleague titles, whereas Premiers are distributed pretty evenly in Sc2(Protoss ahead by two if I remember correctly, out of 250+ tournaments); curiously, in Korean leagues only, Terran won a lot, almost like in BW but that's not really the case in international tournaments(winning only two BlizzCon and one IEM Katowice, for example).
Yeah this really applies strictly to counting Korean only tournaments. Still is amazing how similar the histories look. Protoss having so many dragons in SC2, but none reaching god level like MVP, Inno, soO (or Life), Maru.
I tried to count only tournaments won by Koreans (foreign event included) and I got 77 Terran, 50 Zerg (40 without Life) and 64 for Protoss. So with Koreans, Terrans are well in the lead (and zerg well behind), nothing as crazy as BW tho.
Edit for Korean tournament I got: 21t-20z-26p (my commute to work is long guys)
Also: Who's GoRush? Granted I don't follow BW, but I never heard the name
On July 16 2019 21:38 Harris1st wrote: Seems like MVP will take this and will be the third Terran in the Top 4
Actually should the upper bracket be Inno-soO and Taeja-Nestea we would have 4 Terrans in top 4, such a missed opportunity.
No worries, this isn't far what a Brood War poll would have looked like. It's doubtful a Protoss touches the top 4 and arguably 3 Terrans could occupy the top 3. It's so similar too because you have to eliminate arguably Zerg best Savior from consideration too.
With the notable difference Terran dominated Brood War in terms of Starleague titles, whereas Premiers are distributed pretty evenly in Sc2(Protoss ahead by two if I remember correctly, out of 250+ tournaments); curiously, in Korean leagues only, Terran won a lot, almost like in BW but that's not really the case in international tournaments(winning only two BlizzCon and one IEM Katowice, for example).
Yeah this really applies strictly to counting Korean only tournaments. Still is amazing how similar the histories look. Protoss having so many dragons in SC2, but none reaching god level like MVP, Inno, soO (or Life), Maru.
Yeah protoss probably has the most entries if you were to list the top 15-20 sc2 players of all time. Just none in the top 5. Although they've certainly reached those high levels, they haven't maintained it across the years.
Zest had the best year in korea out of anyone in 2014 (until Maru 2018). And he has one of the highest peaks of any player. sOs at a time was the most clutch player in the game, especially in proleague. Dear in his prime looked like the best player to touch the game (at that point anyway). You could make arguments for Rain, herO, even Classic as well.
I also think there's arguments to put Zest over Mvp, but that's not really worth talking about given how one-sided the poll already is.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
Maru was a already a GSL and an SSL champ, proleague best terran and should have won IEM Tapei + he had 4 Korean tournament semi final as well as a blizzcon semi, all of it at 16 years old, if that's second tiers I don't know who's suppose to be first tiers...
On July 15 2019 18:05 Harris1st wrote: Voted for Zest cause we need a Protoss in Top 4 :D
I did to actually, I think Zest is the GOAT toss while mvp is my 3rd terran, and I feel like we are way to close to have 1-2-3 as T haha.
This reasoning doesn't make sense. If the top 3 GOATs are Terrans then so be it. Personally, I think the top 3 GOATs are 2 terrans and a zerg (who shall not be named), but lacking that certain zerg, it's 3 terrans. I don't really see how you can make a case for Zest being greater than Mvp unless you put a huuuuuge value on longevity (even if it's longevity without top results).
Well I think Zest is the person who was able to find the most success playing Starcraft as Protoss. While Mvp who had probably more success isn't the one who's the best at playing Starcraft as Terran.
Sure both are playing Starcraft but they are playing very different version of it, I think beeing the greatest has to go to the one who played his version better than anyone else. Still it's a close one for me.
Maru was not a GSL champion LOOOL. He was SSL and OSL champion. And in comparison of other players at that time he was second tier. Example Innovation, Taeja, Zest, Rain, Polt, Life, etc. He lost regurarly against top zergs (soulkey, soo, etc) and top terrans. If you dont like Maru example I can change it and we can say guminho (clearly second or third tier), stats and even Classic.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
Maru was a already a GSL and an SSL champ, proleague best terran and should have won IEM Tapei + he had 4 Korean tournament semi final as well as a blizzcon semi, all of it at 16 years old, if that's second tiers I don't know who's suppose to be first tiers...
Also "retired"
On July 16 2019 02:30 Acrofales wrote:
On July 16 2019 01:08 Nakajin wrote:
On July 15 2019 18:05 Harris1st wrote: Voted for Zest cause we need a Protoss in Top 4 :D
I did to actually, I think Zest is the GOAT toss while mvp is my 3rd terran, and I feel like we are way to close to have 1-2-3 as T haha.
This reasoning doesn't make sense. If the top 3 GOATs are Terrans then so be it. Personally, I think the top 3 GOATs are 2 terrans and a zerg (who shall not be named), but lacking that certain zerg, it's 3 terrans. I don't really see how you can make a case for Zest being greater than Mvp unless you put a huuuuuge value on longevity (even if it's longevity without top results).
Well I think Zest is the person who was able to find the most success playing Starcraft as Protoss. While Mvp who had probably more success isn't the one who's the best at playing Starcraft as Terran.
Sure both are playing Starcraft but they are playing very different version of it, I think beeing the greatest has to go to the one who played his version better than anyone else. Still it's a close one for me.
Maru was not a GSL champion LOOOL. He was SSL and OSL champion. And in comparison of other players at that time he was second tier. Example Innovation, Taeja, Zest, Rain, Polt, Life, etc. He lost regurarly against top zergs (soulkey, soo, etc) and top terrans. If you dont like Maru example I can change it and we can say guminho (clearly second or third tier), stats and even Classic.
Yes he was a dual starleague champion already, Rain and Zest whom you mentioned managed to get only two starleague championships during their whole career.
Your can have whichever personal tier list you want but it takes a particular brand of crazy to believe that you opinion = fact.
In my opinion Maru was not second tier, he was first tier, any player that got two starleague championships is first tier, in my opinion.
You can argue with us however much you want, that doesn't make your opinion right. Can't even believe you mention Polt in this context, seems your tier list is basically your "favorite player" list because it makes absolutely 0 sense.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
uhhh buddy you done goofed here.
Maru was bar none the highest performing Korean terran during the blink era (early 2014). He made Ro8 and Ro4 in the first two GSLs of that year (Inno wasnt EVEN IN CODE S in season 1 as he got fourth in his Code A promo group and went out in the second group stage in GSL season 2 that year). By the way Maru's season 1 run that year included a first place group finish in the second group stage with wins over Dear and Zest. Innovation did win GSL season 3 in 2014 but that was after blink wasn't the dominant force it was early in the year. For reference in season 1 and 2 of that year (where Maru vastly outperformed Innovation) Maru was one of THREE and FOUR terrans respectively in ALL of Code S, whereas Season 3 had 7. So Maru waaaaayyyy outperformed Innovation when Terran was in the gutter during the blink stalker era.
Also "while being in a slump". I hate when being "in a slump" is considered an excuse for someone not playing well. It's basically saying "they were only playing bad for a period of time because they were bad for that period of time". There's no mitigating factor.
Protoss sucess was always very well distributed between players. There were usually a large ammount of Protoss players who could win things. Ever since GOMTVT ended, Terran sucess has been very top heavy, meaning the juggernauts of the race were the ones who racked up the titles. Its no surprise to get 3 Terrans in the top 4.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
uhhh buddy you done goofed here.
Maru was bar none the highest performing Korean terran during the blink era (early 2014). He made Ro8 and Ro4 in the first two GSLs of that year (Inno wasnt EVEN IN CODE S in season 1 as he got fourth in his Code A promo group and went out in the second group stage in GSL season 2 that year). By the way Maru's season 1 run that year included a first place group finish in the second group stage with wins over Dear and Zest. Innovation did win GSL season 3 in 2014 but that was after blink wasn't the dominant force it was early in the year. For reference in season 1 and 2 of that year (where Maru vastly outperformed Innovation) Maru was one of THREE and FOUR terrans respectively in ALL of Code S, whereas Season 3 had 7. So Maru waaaaayyyy outperformed Innovation when Terran was in the gutter during the blink stalker era.
Also "while being in a slump". I hate when being "in a slump" is considered an excuse for someone not playing well. It's basically saying "they were only playing bad for a period of time because they were bad for that period of time". There's no mitigating factor.
LoL Maru fans are totally bia. Inno won GSL in 2014, Blink era didnt last just 2 gsl as you implied. Maru just had a bunch of semis in that time. Is just a fact that maru tvz sucked he lost frecuently against life, soulkey, soo, jd and other top zergs. His tvt was good but not top such as inno, taeja, bomber or polt.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
uhhh buddy you done goofed here.
Maru was bar none the highest performing Korean terran during the blink era (early 2014). He made Ro8 and Ro4 in the first two GSLs of that year (Inno wasnt EVEN IN CODE S in season 1 as he got fourth in his Code A promo group and went out in the second group stage in GSL season 2 that year). By the way Maru's season 1 run that year included a first place group finish in the second group stage with wins over Dear and Zest. Innovation did win GSL season 3 in 2014 but that was after blink wasn't the dominant force it was early in the year. For reference in season 1 and 2 of that year (where Maru vastly outperformed Innovation) Maru was one of THREE and FOUR terrans respectively in ALL of Code S, whereas Season 3 had 7. So Maru waaaaayyyy outperformed Innovation when Terran was in the gutter during the blink stalker era.
Also "while being in a slump". I hate when being "in a slump" is considered an excuse for someone not playing well. It's basically saying "they were only playing bad for a period of time because they were bad for that period of time". There's no mitigating factor.
LoL Maru fans are totally bia. Inno won GSL in 2014, Blink era didnt last just 2 gsl as you implied. Maru just had a bunch of semis in that time. Is just a fact that maru tvz sucked he lost frecuently against life, soulkey, soo, jd and other top zergs. His tvt was good but not top such as inno, taeja, bomber or polt.
Maru was objectively the best terran, and made the playoffs of four GSL (inc OSL) seasons in a row (1st, ro4, ro8, ro4), and for the latter two no other terran could even make a ro8 (looking at 4/32 in Code S as well). He also made ro4 of blizzcon in the middle. What made this era more impressive is that it's one of the biggest examples of someone overcoming balance in all of sc2 history. That's something INno will never have, given for almost all of his career he only won when terran was up.
"Maru just had a bunch of semis" yeah while INno was failing to qualify for Code S and losing to duckdeok at blizzcon.
INno fell off after Maru 4-0'd him in 2013 season 2. And like most terrans was barely relevent during the blink era. Which absolutely didn't extend to when 2014 season 3 where he won.
I'll agree that Maru's TvZ was a weakness, in fact it's what stopped him from winning blizzcon 2013 and probably a GSL season or two back then. But acting like he wasn't miles ahead of Inno during that era is nonsense.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
uhhh buddy you done goofed here.
Maru was bar none the highest performing Korean terran during the blink era (early 2014). He made Ro8 and Ro4 in the first two GSLs of that year (Inno wasnt EVEN IN CODE S in season 1 as he got fourth in his Code A promo group and went out in the second group stage in GSL season 2 that year). By the way Maru's season 1 run that year included a first place group finish in the second group stage with wins over Dear and Zest. Innovation did win GSL season 3 in 2014 but that was after blink wasn't the dominant force it was early in the year. For reference in season 1 and 2 of that year (where Maru vastly outperformed Innovation) Maru was one of THREE and FOUR terrans respectively in ALL of Code S, whereas Season 3 had 7. So Maru waaaaayyyy outperformed Innovation when Terran was in the gutter during the blink stalker era.
Also "while being in a slump". I hate when being "in a slump" is considered an excuse for someone not playing well. It's basically saying "they were only playing bad for a period of time because they were bad for that period of time". There's no mitigating factor.
LoL Maru fans are totally bia. Inno won GSL in 2014, Blink era didnt last just 2 gsl as you implied. Maru just had a bunch of semis in that time. Is just a fact that maru tvz sucked he lost frecuently against life, soulkey, soo, jd and other top zergs. His tvt was good but not top such as inno, taeja, bomber or polt.
uggggghhhh you're going to make me look things up aren't you
First point: that blink era lasted all of 2014 therefore Innovation should get credit for defeating blink to win his GSL in late 2014. It is undeniably true that the first half of 2014 was the real era of the blink stalker builds. Protoss lost ground in GSL throughout the year, but it was CLEAR in season 3 that the balance had shifted back. In the round of 16 in season 3 of that year there was an even number of P and T players (5). Compare that to the first two seasons where the ratio was 9/2 and 7/2 respectively (Maru and Bbyong and Maru and Inno).
The reason for this can be seen if you go back through the patches of that year, as Blizzard tried multiple times to decrease the power of the blink build mostly through nerfs to the mothership core.First on February 3rd 2014, the energy cost for time warp went up. Then on March 1st, they decreased the mothership core's vision was decreased (clearly to address the problem of the blink build where the mothership core provided easy vision for blinking onto high ground). In July they hit the mothership core the hardest with a reduction in time warp duration from 30 to 10 seconds, making defending against the blink build much easier as time warp killed your ability to get close enough to stutter-stepping stalkers with marines, but 10 seconds was way easier to wait out. So for those keeping score at home, the last of three major nerfs to the blink build happened on July 25th of 2014, about two weeks before Innovation's first group stage in GSL season 3.
Second point, TvZ. As an aside, why did you bring this up? You brought up a false claim about the blink stalker era and then immediately jumped to TvZ, despite the fact that I didn't discuss Maru's TvZ at all? I would've probably let it stand if you hadn't also included some random factual inaccuracies in your "Maru was bad at TvZ" claim but here we go
If we're gonna talk about 2014 (I'm assuming this is the era you're referring to for his TvZ as well considering that's when we were talking about the blink thing but correct me if I'm wrong). Maru was 40-18 in TvZ over that span while Innovation was 37-16. That's roughly an equal record. Here's the fun thing though: Maru played only a single non-Korean Zerg over the entire year, a qualifier for IEM where he played Chinese Zerg intowind. Innovation played nineteen matches against foreigners and went 15-4 and went 22-12 against Koreans. They basically lost to the same people throughout the year, the only difference being Maru's worst TvZ losses were probably Effort and Curious while Inno's were Starbuck and Tefel (lmao).
Now to talk about the "top zergs" losses. First off, Maru played JD twice in his career both in 2013, although he did lose both times. The point here is that we were talking about a different time period and you said he lost to Jaedong "frequently" which means you pulled that out of your ass without looking it up. Another fun fact: Inno is 7-7 against Life and Maru is 5-5. They both hold a slight lead over life in game wins. That means that if you're criticizing Maru for losing to Life you also have to criticize Inno. Even more actually because Inno has more losses to Life as 7>5! Who knew?! Both Innovation and Maru are well up on soO in lifetime record, and Maru barely played soO during the time we're talking about. I will cede exactly one point to you: that Inno had a much better record against Soulkey than Maru did.
The TvT is an interesting point. While it is worth noting that TvT was Maru's worst matchup at the time, he was also the only one of the five terrans you talked about who stayed entirely in Korea. Taeja, Polt, and Bomber all played in WCS America and frequently played lower level competition. Innovation's record in TvT was inflated by the Acer Teamstory Cup and Dreamhacks which Maru wasn't able to attend not being on a foreign team. I'm not gonna say that Maru's TvT was great at the time. It wasn't. But it would've been interesting to see the records of the other four had they regularly been playing people like TY and Flash instead of Dayshi and Xenocider lmao. Also TvT was not a very relevant matchup at the time because as noted before there were BARELY ANY TERRANS in GSL or other major tournaments at the time.
Also Maru has the highest aligulac rating in every single matchup for Terran all time. In short, you could look stuff up on aligulac or liquipedia before saying blatantly false things. Or you could keep doing this and making me do it for you. Please choose the former lmao
On July 19 2019 05:07 TheAnarchy wrote: I cant believe there are even maru fans LoL. His nickname back in the days was the stincky terran and now he has fans LoL.
I know your trolling but I on the other hand can't possibly understand how someone can hate Maru, I mean unless your Myungsik mom it's kind of like sucker punching a random person on the street.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
uhhh buddy you done goofed here.
Maru was bar none the highest performing Korean terran during the blink era (early 2014). He made Ro8 and Ro4 in the first two GSLs of that year (Inno wasnt EVEN IN CODE S in season 1 as he got fourth in his Code A promo group and went out in the second group stage in GSL season 2 that year). By the way Maru's season 1 run that year included a first place group finish in the second group stage with wins over Dear and Zest. Innovation did win GSL season 3 in 2014 but that was after blink wasn't the dominant force it was early in the year. For reference in season 1 and 2 of that year (where Maru vastly outperformed Innovation) Maru was one of THREE and FOUR terrans respectively in ALL of Code S, whereas Season 3 had 7. So Maru waaaaayyyy outperformed Innovation when Terran was in the gutter during the blink stalker era.
Also "while being in a slump". I hate when being "in a slump" is considered an excuse for someone not playing well. It's basically saying "they were only playing bad for a period of time because they were bad for that period of time". There's no mitigating factor.
LoL Maru fans are totally bia. Inno won GSL in 2014, Blink era didnt last just 2 gsl as you implied. Maru just had a bunch of semis in that time. Is just a fact that maru tvz sucked he lost frecuently against life, soulkey, soo, jd and other top zergs. His tvt was good but not top such as inno, taeja, bomber or polt.
uggggghhhh you're going to make me look things up aren't you
First point: that blink era lasted all of 2014 therefore Innovation should get credit for defeating blink to win his GSL in late 2014. It is undeniably true that the first half of 2014 was the real era of the blink stalker builds. Protoss lost ground in GSL throughout the year, but it was CLEAR in season 3 that the balance had shifted back. In the round of 16 in season 3 of that year there was an even number of P and T players (5). Compare that to the first two seasons where the ratio was 9/2 and 7/2 respectively (Maru and Bbyong and Maru and Inno).
The reason for this can be seen if you go back through the patches of that year, as Blizzard tried multiple times to decrease the power of the blink build mostly through nerfs to the mothership core.First on February 3rd 2014, the energy cost for time warp went up. Then on March 1st, they decreased the mothership core's vision was decreased (clearly to address the problem of the blink build where the mothership core provided easy vision for blinking onto high ground). In July they hit the mothership core the hardest with a reduction in time warp duration from 30 to 10 seconds, making defending against the blink build much easier as time warp killed your ability to get close enough to stutter-stepping stalkers with marines, but 10 seconds was way easier to wait out. So for those keeping score at home, the last of three major nerfs to the blink build happened on July 25th of 2014, about two weeks before Innovation's first group stage in GSL season 3.
Second point, TvZ. As an aside, why did you bring this up? You brought up a false claim about the blink stalker era and then immediately jumped to TvZ, despite the fact that I didn't discuss Maru's TvZ at all? I would've probably let it stand if you hadn't also included some random factual inaccuracies in your "Maru was bad at TvZ" claim but here we go
If we're gonna talk about 2014 (I'm assuming this is the era you're referring to for his TvZ as well considering that's when we were talking about the blink thing but correct me if I'm wrong). Maru was 40-18 in TvZ over that span while Innovation was 37-16. That's roughly an equal record. Here's the fun thing though: Maru played only a single non-Korean Zerg over the entire year, a qualifier for IEM where he played Chinese Zerg intowind. Innovation played nineteen matches against foreigners and went 15-4 and went 22-12 against Koreans. They basically lost to the same people throughout the year, the only difference being Maru's worst TvZ losses were probably Effort and Curious while Inno's were Starbuck and Tefel (lmao).
Now to talk about the "top zergs" losses. First off, Maru played JD twice in his career both in 2013, although he did lose both times. The point here is that we were talking about a different time period and you said he lost to Jaedong "frequently" which means you pulled that out of your ass without looking it up. Another fun fact: Inno is 7-7 against Life and Maru is 5-5. They both hold a slight lead over life in game wins. That means that if you're criticizing Maru for losing to Life you also have to criticize Inno. Even more actually because Inno has more losses to Life as 7>5! Who knew?! Both Innovation and Maru are well up on soO in lifetime record, and Maru barely played soO during the time we're talking about. I will cede exactly one point to you: that Inno had a much better record against Soulkey than Maru did.
The TvT is an interesting point. While it is worth noting that TvT was Maru's worst matchup at the time, he was also the only one of the five terrans you talked about who stayed entirely in Korea. Taeja, Polt, and Bomber all played in WCS America and frequently played lower level competition. Innovation's record in TvT was inflated by the Acer Teamstory Cup and Dreamhacks which Maru wasn't able to attend not being on a foreign team. I'm not gonna say that Maru's TvT was great at the time. It wasn't. But it would've been interesting to see the records of the other four had they regularly been playing people like TY and Flash instead of Dayshi and Xenocider lmao. Also TvT was not a very relevant matchup at the time because as noted before there were BARELY ANY TERRANS in GSL or other major tournaments at the time.
Also Maru has the highest aligulac rating in every single matchup for Terran all time. In short, you could look stuff up on aligulac or liquipedia before saying blatantly false things. Or you could keep doing this and making me do it for you. Please choose the former lmao
Even though Anarchy is an obvious troll and not worth the trouble, thank you for this post. Always like a bit of statistics
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
uhhh buddy you done goofed here.
Maru was bar none the highest performing Korean terran during the blink era (early 2014). He made Ro8 and Ro4 in the first two GSLs of that year (Inno wasnt EVEN IN CODE S in season 1 as he got fourth in his Code A promo group and went out in the second group stage in GSL season 2 that year). By the way Maru's season 1 run that year included a first place group finish in the second group stage with wins over Dear and Zest. Innovation did win GSL season 3 in 2014 but that was after blink wasn't the dominant force it was early in the year. For reference in season 1 and 2 of that year (where Maru vastly outperformed Innovation) Maru was one of THREE and FOUR terrans respectively in ALL of Code S, whereas Season 3 had 7. So Maru waaaaayyyy outperformed Innovation when Terran was in the gutter during the blink stalker era.
Also "while being in a slump". I hate when being "in a slump" is considered an excuse for someone not playing well. It's basically saying "they were only playing bad for a period of time because they were bad for that period of time". There's no mitigating factor.
LoL Maru fans are totally bia. Inno won GSL in 2014, Blink era didnt last just 2 gsl as you implied. Maru just had a bunch of semis in that time. Is just a fact that maru tvz sucked he lost frecuently against life, soulkey, soo, jd and other top zergs. His tvt was good but not top such as inno, taeja, bomber or polt.
uggggghhhh you're going to make me look things up aren't you
First point: that blink era lasted all of 2014 therefore Innovation should get credit for defeating blink to win his GSL in late 2014. It is undeniably true that the first half of 2014 was the real era of the blink stalker builds. Protoss lost ground in GSL throughout the year, but it was CLEAR in season 3 that the balance had shifted back. In the round of 16 in season 3 of that year there was an even number of P and T players (5). Compare that to the first two seasons where the ratio was 9/2 and 7/2 respectively (Maru and Bbyong and Maru and Inno).
The reason for this can be seen if you go back through the patches of that year, as Blizzard tried multiple times to decrease the power of the blink build mostly through nerfs to the mothership core.First on February 3rd 2014, the energy cost for time warp went up. Then on March 1st, they decreased the mothership core's vision was decreased (clearly to address the problem of the blink build where the mothership core provided easy vision for blinking onto high ground). In July they hit the mothership core the hardest with a reduction in time warp duration from 30 to 10 seconds, making defending against the blink build much easier as time warp killed your ability to get close enough to stutter-stepping stalkers with marines, but 10 seconds was way easier to wait out. So for those keeping score at home, the last of three major nerfs to the blink build happened on July 25th of 2014, about two weeks before Innovation's first group stage in GSL season 3.
Second point, TvZ. As an aside, why did you bring this up? You brought up a false claim about the blink stalker era and then immediately jumped to TvZ, despite the fact that I didn't discuss Maru's TvZ at all? I would've probably let it stand if you hadn't also included some random factual inaccuracies in your "Maru was bad at TvZ" claim but here we go
If we're gonna talk about 2014 (I'm assuming this is the era you're referring to for his TvZ as well considering that's when we were talking about the blink thing but correct me if I'm wrong). Maru was 40-18 in TvZ over that span while Innovation was 37-16. That's roughly an equal record. Here's the fun thing though: Maru played only a single non-Korean Zerg over the entire year, a qualifier for IEM where he played Chinese Zerg intowind. Innovation played nineteen matches against foreigners and went 15-4 and went 22-12 against Koreans. They basically lost to the same people throughout the year, the only difference being Maru's worst TvZ losses were probably Effort and Curious while Inno's were Starbuck and Tefel (lmao).
Now to talk about the "top zergs" losses. First off, Maru played JD twice in his career both in 2013, although he did lose both times. The point here is that we were talking about a different time period and you said he lost to Jaedong "frequently" which means you pulled that out of your ass without looking it up. Another fun fact: Inno is 7-7 against Life and Maru is 5-5. They both hold a slight lead over life in game wins. That means that if you're criticizing Maru for losing to Life you also have to criticize Inno. Even more actually because Inno has more losses to Life as 7>5! Who knew?! Both Innovation and Maru are well up on soO in lifetime record, and Maru barely played soO during the time we're talking about. I will cede exactly one point to you: that Inno had a much better record against Soulkey than Maru did.
The TvT is an interesting point. While it is worth noting that TvT was Maru's worst matchup at the time, he was also the only one of the five terrans you talked about who stayed entirely in Korea. Taeja, Polt, and Bomber all played in WCS America and frequently played lower level competition. Innovation's record in TvT was inflated by the Acer Teamstory Cup and Dreamhacks which Maru wasn't able to attend not being on a foreign team. I'm not gonna say that Maru's TvT was great at the time. It wasn't. But it would've been interesting to see the records of the other four had they regularly been playing people like TY and Flash instead of Dayshi and Xenocider lmao. Also TvT was not a very relevant matchup at the time because as noted before there were BARELY ANY TERRANS in GSL or other major tournaments at the time.
Also Maru has the highest aligulac rating in every single matchup for Terran all time. In short, you could look stuff up on aligulac or liquipedia before saying blatantly false things. Or you could keep doing this and making me do it for you. Please choose the former lmao
On July 19 2019 05:07 TheAnarchy wrote: I cant believe there are even maru fans LoL. His nickname back in the days was the stincky terran and now he has fans LoL.
I know your trolling but I on the other hand can't possibly understand how someone can hate Maru, I mean unless your Myungsik mom it's kind of like sucker punching a random person on the street.
Why not? He's arrogant, at times likes to humiliate opponents, and he's essentially a Prime Terran who attempts to bore the viewers to death while parade pushing his way to victory.
Maru doesn’t seem arrogant to me, in fact he’s at the opposite end of the scale where he’s ridiculously falsely modest sometimes. I find that more irritating personally, although maybe it’s partly a cultural thing too.
Gotta respect the guys chops though, more of an Inno man myself for no real reason I can rationalise
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
uhhh buddy you done goofed here.
Maru was bar none the highest performing Korean terran during the blink era (early 2014). He made Ro8 and Ro4 in the first two GSLs of that year (Inno wasnt EVEN IN CODE S in season 1 as he got fourth in his Code A promo group and went out in the second group stage in GSL season 2 that year). By the way Maru's season 1 run that year included a first place group finish in the second group stage with wins over Dear and Zest. Innovation did win GSL season 3 in 2014 but that was after blink wasn't the dominant force it was early in the year. For reference in season 1 and 2 of that year (where Maru vastly outperformed Innovation) Maru was one of THREE and FOUR terrans respectively in ALL of Code S, whereas Season 3 had 7. So Maru waaaaayyyy outperformed Innovation when Terran was in the gutter during the blink stalker era.
Also "while being in a slump". I hate when being "in a slump" is considered an excuse for someone not playing well. It's basically saying "they were only playing bad for a period of time because they were bad for that period of time". There's no mitigating factor.
LoL Maru fans are totally bia. Inno won GSL in 2014, Blink era didnt last just 2 gsl as you implied. Maru just had a bunch of semis in that time. Is just a fact that maru tvz sucked he lost frecuently against life, soulkey, soo, jd and other top zergs. His tvt was good but not top such as inno, taeja, bomber or polt.
uggggghhhh you're going to make me look things up aren't you
First point: that blink era lasted all of 2014 therefore Innovation should get credit for defeating blink to win his GSL in late 2014. It is undeniably true that the first half of 2014 was the real era of the blink stalker builds. Protoss lost ground in GSL throughout the year, but it was CLEAR in season 3 that the balance had shifted back. In the round of 16 in season 3 of that year there was an even number of P and T players (5). Compare that to the first two seasons where the ratio was 9/2 and 7/2 respectively (Maru and Bbyong and Maru and Inno).
The reason for this can be seen if you go back through the patches of that year, as Blizzard tried multiple times to decrease the power of the blink build mostly through nerfs to the mothership core.First on February 3rd 2014, the energy cost for time warp went up. Then on March 1st, they decreased the mothership core's vision was decreased (clearly to address the problem of the blink build where the mothership core provided easy vision for blinking onto high ground). In July they hit the mothership core the hardest with a reduction in time warp duration from 30 to 10 seconds, making defending against the blink build much easier as time warp killed your ability to get close enough to stutter-stepping stalkers with marines, but 10 seconds was way easier to wait out. So for those keeping score at home, the last of three major nerfs to the blink build happened on July 25th of 2014, about two weeks before Innovation's first group stage in GSL season 3.
Second point, TvZ. As an aside, why did you bring this up? You brought up a false claim about the blink stalker era and then immediately jumped to TvZ, despite the fact that I didn't discuss Maru's TvZ at all? I would've probably let it stand if you hadn't also included some random factual inaccuracies in your "Maru was bad at TvZ" claim but here we go
If we're gonna talk about 2014 (I'm assuming this is the era you're referring to for his TvZ as well considering that's when we were talking about the blink thing but correct me if I'm wrong). Maru was 40-18 in TvZ over that span while Innovation was 37-16. That's roughly an equal record. Here's the fun thing though: Maru played only a single non-Korean Zerg over the entire year, a qualifier for IEM where he played Chinese Zerg intowind. Innovation played nineteen matches against foreigners and went 15-4 and went 22-12 against Koreans. They basically lost to the same people throughout the year, the only difference being Maru's worst TvZ losses were probably Effort and Curious while Inno's were Starbuck and Tefel (lmao).
Now to talk about the "top zergs" losses. First off, Maru played JD twice in his career both in 2013, although he did lose both times. The point here is that we were talking about a different time period and you said he lost to Jaedong "frequently" which means you pulled that out of your ass without looking it up. Another fun fact: Inno is 7-7 against Life and Maru is 5-5. They both hold a slight lead over life in game wins. That means that if you're criticizing Maru for losing to Life you also have to criticize Inno. Even more actually because Inno has more losses to Life as 7>5! Who knew?! Both Innovation and Maru are well up on soO in lifetime record, and Maru barely played soO during the time we're talking about. I will cede exactly one point to you: that Inno had a much better record against Soulkey than Maru did.
The TvT is an interesting point. While it is worth noting that TvT was Maru's worst matchup at the time, he was also the only one of the five terrans you talked about who stayed entirely in Korea. Taeja, Polt, and Bomber all played in WCS America and frequently played lower level competition. Innovation's record in TvT was inflated by the Acer Teamstory Cup and Dreamhacks which Maru wasn't able to attend not being on a foreign team. I'm not gonna say that Maru's TvT was great at the time. It wasn't. But it would've been interesting to see the records of the other four had they regularly been playing people like TY and Flash instead of Dayshi and Xenocider lmao. Also TvT was not a very relevant matchup at the time because as noted before there were BARELY ANY TERRANS in GSL or other major tournaments at the time.
Also Maru has the highest aligulac rating in every single matchup for Terran all time. In short, you could look stuff up on aligulac or liquipedia before saying blatantly false things. Or you could keep doing this and making me do it for you. Please choose the former lmao
Even though Anarchy is an obvious troll and not worth the trouble, thank you for this post. Always like a bit of statistics
I agree with the post for most part but I don't put too much stock in aligulac ratings when comparing the greatest players because they inflate a lot every year. Inno hit his peak in 2017 and has never really gotten near that level but back then, the top player had aligulac rating in the 2700-2800s, unlike nowadays where the number 1 is usually around 3000. I think it's useful in predicting current form (but not perfectly so because it favours players who are strong online like Solar while underestimating players who are weaker online like Stats, who rarely is in top 10 of aligulac rankings).
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
uhhh buddy you done goofed here.
Maru was bar none the highest performing Korean terran during the blink era (early 2014). He made Ro8 and Ro4 in the first two GSLs of that year (Inno wasnt EVEN IN CODE S in season 1 as he got fourth in his Code A promo group and went out in the second group stage in GSL season 2 that year). By the way Maru's season 1 run that year included a first place group finish in the second group stage with wins over Dear and Zest. Innovation did win GSL season 3 in 2014 but that was after blink wasn't the dominant force it was early in the year. For reference in season 1 and 2 of that year (where Maru vastly outperformed Innovation) Maru was one of THREE and FOUR terrans respectively in ALL of Code S, whereas Season 3 had 7. So Maru waaaaayyyy outperformed Innovation when Terran was in the gutter during the blink stalker era.
Also "while being in a slump". I hate when being "in a slump" is considered an excuse for someone not playing well. It's basically saying "they were only playing bad for a period of time because they were bad for that period of time". There's no mitigating factor.
LoL Maru fans are totally bia. Inno won GSL in 2014, Blink era didnt last just 2 gsl as you implied. Maru just had a bunch of semis in that time. Is just a fact that maru tvz sucked he lost frecuently against life, soulkey, soo, jd and other top zergs. His tvt was good but not top such as inno, taeja, bomber or polt.
uggggghhhh you're going to make me look things up aren't you
First point: that blink era lasted all of 2014 therefore Innovation should get credit for defeating blink to win his GSL in late 2014. It is undeniably true that the first half of 2014 was the real era of the blink stalker builds. Protoss lost ground in GSL throughout the year, but it was CLEAR in season 3 that the balance had shifted back. In the round of 16 in season 3 of that year there was an even number of P and T players (5). Compare that to the first two seasons where the ratio was 9/2 and 7/2 respectively (Maru and Bbyong and Maru and Inno).
The reason for this can be seen if you go back through the patches of that year, as Blizzard tried multiple times to decrease the power of the blink build mostly through nerfs to the mothership core.First on February 3rd 2014, the energy cost for time warp went up. Then on March 1st, they decreased the mothership core's vision was decreased (clearly to address the problem of the blink build where the mothership core provided easy vision for blinking onto high ground). In July they hit the mothership core the hardest with a reduction in time warp duration from 30 to 10 seconds, making defending against the blink build much easier as time warp killed your ability to get close enough to stutter-stepping stalkers with marines, but 10 seconds was way easier to wait out. So for those keeping score at home, the last of three major nerfs to the blink build happened on July 25th of 2014, about two weeks before Innovation's first group stage in GSL season 3.
Second point, TvZ. As an aside, why did you bring this up? You brought up a false claim about the blink stalker era and then immediately jumped to TvZ, despite the fact that I didn't discuss Maru's TvZ at all? I would've probably let it stand if you hadn't also included some random factual inaccuracies in your "Maru was bad at TvZ" claim but here we go
If we're gonna talk about 2014 (I'm assuming this is the era you're referring to for his TvZ as well considering that's when we were talking about the blink thing but correct me if I'm wrong). Maru was 40-18 in TvZ over that span while Innovation was 37-16. That's roughly an equal record. Here's the fun thing though: Maru played only a single non-Korean Zerg over the entire year, a qualifier for IEM where he played Chinese Zerg intowind. Innovation played nineteen matches against foreigners and went 15-4 and went 22-12 against Koreans. They basically lost to the same people throughout the year, the only difference being Maru's worst TvZ losses were probably Effort and Curious while Inno's were Starbuck and Tefel (lmao).
Now to talk about the "top zergs" losses. First off, Maru played JD twice in his career both in 2013, although he did lose both times. The point here is that we were talking about a different time period and you said he lost to Jaedong "frequently" which means you pulled that out of your ass without looking it up. Another fun fact: Inno is 7-7 against Life and Maru is 5-5. They both hold a slight lead over life in game wins. That means that if you're criticizing Maru for losing to Life you also have to criticize Inno. Even more actually because Inno has more losses to Life as 7>5! Who knew?! Both Innovation and Maru are well up on soO in lifetime record, and Maru barely played soO during the time we're talking about. I will cede exactly one point to you: that Inno had a much better record against Soulkey than Maru did.
The TvT is an interesting point. While it is worth noting that TvT was Maru's worst matchup at the time, he was also the only one of the five terrans you talked about who stayed entirely in Korea. Taeja, Polt, and Bomber all played in WCS America and frequently played lower level competition. Innovation's record in TvT was inflated by the Acer Teamstory Cup and Dreamhacks which Maru wasn't able to attend not being on a foreign team. I'm not gonna say that Maru's TvT was great at the time. It wasn't. But it would've been interesting to see the records of the other four had they regularly been playing people like TY and Flash instead of Dayshi and Xenocider lmao. Also TvT was not a very relevant matchup at the time because as noted before there were BARELY ANY TERRANS in GSL or other major tournaments at the time.
Also Maru has the highest aligulac rating in every single matchup for Terran all time. In short, you could look stuff up on aligulac or liquipedia before saying blatantly false things. Or you could keep doing this and making me do it for you. Please choose the former lmao
Even though Anarchy is an obvious troll and not worth the trouble, thank you for this post. Always like a bit of statistics
I agree with the post for most part but I don't put too much stock in aligulac ratings when comparing the greatest players because they inflate a lot every year. Inno hit his peak in 2017 and has never really gotten near that level but back then, the top player had aligulac rating in the 2700-2800s, unlike nowadays where the number 1 is usually around 3000. I think it's useful in predicting current form (but not perfectly so because it favours players who are strong online like Solar while underestimating players who are weaker online like Stats, who rarely is in top 10 of aligulac rankings).
Definitely a useful tool, but as you say has some flaws.
I mean just by human intuition Innovation’s most dominant form was what in 2013 or so, but his Aligulac rating at the time doesn’t reflect that.
Intangibles such as online performance from the comfort of one’s home vs offline form are hard to account for too.
You probably actually need as much online stuff as possible to get sufficient data to go off, but it’s a different beast what with home comforts, usually low stakes monetarily and there aren’t a huge amount of viewers
I loved the wall of text about Maru, it filled some gaps in me following the scene, made me appreciate a magnificent player that bit more. Hard to keep like 10 years of a game and a players achievements and track them without occasionally having a refresher on them all.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
uhhh buddy you done goofed here.
Maru was bar none the highest performing Korean terran during the blink era (early 2014). He made Ro8 and Ro4 in the first two GSLs of that year (Inno wasnt EVEN IN CODE S in season 1 as he got fourth in his Code A promo group and went out in the second group stage in GSL season 2 that year). By the way Maru's season 1 run that year included a first place group finish in the second group stage with wins over Dear and Zest. Innovation did win GSL season 3 in 2014 but that was after blink wasn't the dominant force it was early in the year. For reference in season 1 and 2 of that year (where Maru vastly outperformed Innovation) Maru was one of THREE and FOUR terrans respectively in ALL of Code S, whereas Season 3 had 7. So Maru waaaaayyyy outperformed Innovation when Terran was in the gutter during the blink stalker era.
Also "while being in a slump". I hate when being "in a slump" is considered an excuse for someone not playing well. It's basically saying "they were only playing bad for a period of time because they were bad for that period of time". There's no mitigating factor.
LoL Maru fans are totally bia. Inno won GSL in 2014, Blink era didnt last just 2 gsl as you implied. Maru just had a bunch of semis in that time. Is just a fact that maru tvz sucked he lost frecuently against life, soulkey, soo, jd and other top zergs. His tvt was good but not top such as inno, taeja, bomber or polt.
uggggghhhh you're going to make me look things up aren't you
First point: that blink era lasted all of 2014 therefore Innovation should get credit for defeating blink to win his GSL in late 2014. It is undeniably true that the first half of 2014 was the real era of the blink stalker builds. Protoss lost ground in GSL throughout the year, but it was CLEAR in season 3 that the balance had shifted back. In the round of 16 in season 3 of that year there was an even number of P and T players (5). Compare that to the first two seasons where the ratio was 9/2 and 7/2 respectively (Maru and Bbyong and Maru and Inno).
The reason for this can be seen if you go back through the patches of that year, as Blizzard tried multiple times to decrease the power of the blink build mostly through nerfs to the mothership core.First on February 3rd 2014, the energy cost for time warp went up. Then on March 1st, they decreased the mothership core's vision was decreased (clearly to address the problem of the blink build where the mothership core provided easy vision for blinking onto high ground). In July they hit the mothership core the hardest with a reduction in time warp duration from 30 to 10 seconds, making defending against the blink build much easier as time warp killed your ability to get close enough to stutter-stepping stalkers with marines, but 10 seconds was way easier to wait out. So for those keeping score at home, the last of three major nerfs to the blink build happened on July 25th of 2014, about two weeks before Innovation's first group stage in GSL season 3.
Second point, TvZ. As an aside, why did you bring this up? You brought up a false claim about the blink stalker era and then immediately jumped to TvZ, despite the fact that I didn't discuss Maru's TvZ at all? I would've probably let it stand if you hadn't also included some random factual inaccuracies in your "Maru was bad at TvZ" claim but here we go
If we're gonna talk about 2014 (I'm assuming this is the era you're referring to for his TvZ as well considering that's when we were talking about the blink thing but correct me if I'm wrong). Maru was 40-18 in TvZ over that span while Innovation was 37-16. That's roughly an equal record. Here's the fun thing though: Maru played only a single non-Korean Zerg over the entire year, a qualifier for IEM where he played Chinese Zerg intowind. Innovation played nineteen matches against foreigners and went 15-4 and went 22-12 against Koreans. They basically lost to the same people throughout the year, the only difference being Maru's worst TvZ losses were probably Effort and Curious while Inno's were Starbuck and Tefel (lmao).
Now to talk about the "top zergs" losses. First off, Maru played JD twice in his career both in 2013, although he did lose both times. The point here is that we were talking about a different time period and you said he lost to Jaedong "frequently" which means you pulled that out of your ass without looking it up. Another fun fact: Inno is 7-7 against Life and Maru is 5-5. They both hold a slight lead over life in game wins. That means that if you're criticizing Maru for losing to Life you also have to criticize Inno. Even more actually because Inno has more losses to Life as 7>5! Who knew?! Both Innovation and Maru are well up on soO in lifetime record, and Maru barely played soO during the time we're talking about. I will cede exactly one point to you: that Inno had a much better record against Soulkey than Maru did.
The TvT is an interesting point. While it is worth noting that TvT was Maru's worst matchup at the time, he was also the only one of the five terrans you talked about who stayed entirely in Korea. Taeja, Polt, and Bomber all played in WCS America and frequently played lower level competition. Innovation's record in TvT was inflated by the Acer Teamstory Cup and Dreamhacks which Maru wasn't able to attend not being on a foreign team. I'm not gonna say that Maru's TvT was great at the time. It wasn't. But it would've been interesting to see the records of the other four had they regularly been playing people like TY and Flash instead of Dayshi and Xenocider lmao. Also TvT was not a very relevant matchup at the time because as noted before there were BARELY ANY TERRANS in GSL or other major tournaments at the time.
Also Maru has the highest aligulac rating in every single matchup for Terran all time. In short, you could look stuff up on aligulac or liquipedia before saying blatantly false things. Or you could keep doing this and making me do it for you. Please choose the former lmao
On July 19 2019 05:07 TheAnarchy wrote: I cant believe there are even maru fans LoL. His nickname back in the days was the stincky terran and now he has fans LoL.
I know your trolling but I on the other hand can't possibly understand how someone can hate Maru, I mean unless your Myungsik mom it's kind of like sucker punching a random person on the street.
Why not? He's arrogant, at times likes to humiliate opponents, and he's essentially a Prime Terran who attempts to bore the viewers to death while parade pushing his way to victory.
I agree he's been arrogant at times, especially when playing opponents much worse than him. But he definitely doesn't bore viewers to death. He's always pulling out random proxies and has some of the widest variety in strategy of any elite player. Not to mention he's one of the best highlight machines in sc2.
On July 16 2019 02:27 TheAnarchy wrote: 1.- Life. 2.- Innovation. 3.- MVP 4.-Taeja. 5.-Zest
After Life retired lvl went down a lot, now even foreigners defeat regularly koreans. Even Maru who was a second tier won 3 gsl. SC2 decadent begun that year =(
4 GSL, but he won an SSL and an OSL during the Innovation reign of terror while beating him 4:0 in one of the fastest BO7 in history of SC2. (NOT sure if during the OSL or SSL ) One of the most stable Terrans(where was Inno during the blink era? ) one of the best Terrans in Proleague while being stable across all the seasons. While he wasn't the top based on the wins he wasn't nowhere near the 2nd tier.
But nice trolling
Where was Maru during Blink Era? at least Innovation won a tourney in 2014 (while being in a slump), Maru didnt win shit
uhhh buddy you done goofed here.
Maru was bar none the highest performing Korean terran during the blink era (early 2014). He made Ro8 and Ro4 in the first two GSLs of that year (Inno wasnt EVEN IN CODE S in season 1 as he got fourth in his Code A promo group and went out in the second group stage in GSL season 2 that year). By the way Maru's season 1 run that year included a first place group finish in the second group stage with wins over Dear and Zest. Innovation did win GSL season 3 in 2014 but that was after blink wasn't the dominant force it was early in the year. For reference in season 1 and 2 of that year (where Maru vastly outperformed Innovation) Maru was one of THREE and FOUR terrans respectively in ALL of Code S, whereas Season 3 had 7. So Maru waaaaayyyy outperformed Innovation when Terran was in the gutter during the blink stalker era.
Also "while being in a slump". I hate when being "in a slump" is considered an excuse for someone not playing well. It's basically saying "they were only playing bad for a period of time because they were bad for that period of time". There's no mitigating factor.
LoL Maru fans are totally bia. Inno won GSL in 2014, Blink era didnt last just 2 gsl as you implied. Maru just had a bunch of semis in that time. Is just a fact that maru tvz sucked he lost frecuently against life, soulkey, soo, jd and other top zergs. His tvt was good but not top such as inno, taeja, bomber or polt.
uggggghhhh you're going to make me look things up aren't you
First point: that blink era lasted all of 2014 therefore Innovation should get credit for defeating blink to win his GSL in late 2014. It is undeniably true that the first half of 2014 was the real era of the blink stalker builds. Protoss lost ground in GSL throughout the year, but it was CLEAR in season 3 that the balance had shifted back. In the round of 16 in season 3 of that year there was an even number of P and T players (5). Compare that to the first two seasons where the ratio was 9/2 and 7/2 respectively (Maru and Bbyong and Maru and Inno).
The reason for this can be seen if you go back through the patches of that year, as Blizzard tried multiple times to decrease the power of the blink build mostly through nerfs to the mothership core.First on February 3rd 2014, the energy cost for time warp went up. Then on March 1st, they decreased the mothership core's vision was decreased (clearly to address the problem of the blink build where the mothership core provided easy vision for blinking onto high ground). In July they hit the mothership core the hardest with a reduction in time warp duration from 30 to 10 seconds, making defending against the blink build much easier as time warp killed your ability to get close enough to stutter-stepping stalkers with marines, but 10 seconds was way easier to wait out. So for those keeping score at home, the last of three major nerfs to the blink build happened on July 25th of 2014, about two weeks before Innovation's first group stage in GSL season 3.
Second point, TvZ. As an aside, why did you bring this up? You brought up a false claim about the blink stalker era and then immediately jumped to TvZ, despite the fact that I didn't discuss Maru's TvZ at all? I would've probably let it stand if you hadn't also included some random factual inaccuracies in your "Maru was bad at TvZ" claim but here we go
If we're gonna talk about 2014 (I'm assuming this is the era you're referring to for his TvZ as well considering that's when we were talking about the blink thing but correct me if I'm wrong). Maru was 40-18 in TvZ over that span while Innovation was 37-16. That's roughly an equal record. Here's the fun thing though: Maru played only a single non-Korean Zerg over the entire year, a qualifier for IEM where he played Chinese Zerg intowind. Innovation played nineteen matches against foreigners and went 15-4 and went 22-12 against Koreans. They basically lost to the same people throughout the year, the only difference being Maru's worst TvZ losses were probably Effort and Curious while Inno's were Starbuck and Tefel (lmao).
Now to talk about the "top zergs" losses. First off, Maru played JD twice in his career both in 2013, although he did lose both times. The point here is that we were talking about a different time period and you said he lost to Jaedong "frequently" which means you pulled that out of your ass without looking it up. Another fun fact: Inno is 7-7 against Life and Maru is 5-5. They both hold a slight lead over life in game wins. That means that if you're criticizing Maru for losing to Life you also have to criticize Inno. Even more actually because Inno has more losses to Life as 7>5! Who knew?! Both Innovation and Maru are well up on soO in lifetime record, and Maru barely played soO during the time we're talking about. I will cede exactly one point to you: that Inno had a much better record against Soulkey than Maru did.
The TvT is an interesting point. While it is worth noting that TvT was Maru's worst matchup at the time, he was also the only one of the five terrans you talked about who stayed entirely in Korea. Taeja, Polt, and Bomber all played in WCS America and frequently played lower level competition. Innovation's record in TvT was inflated by the Acer Teamstory Cup and Dreamhacks which Maru wasn't able to attend not being on a foreign team. I'm not gonna say that Maru's TvT was great at the time. It wasn't. But it would've been interesting to see the records of the other four had they regularly been playing people like TY and Flash instead of Dayshi and Xenocider lmao. Also TvT was not a very relevant matchup at the time because as noted before there were BARELY ANY TERRANS in GSL or other major tournaments at the time.
Also Maru has the highest aligulac rating in every single matchup for Terran all time. In short, you could look stuff up on aligulac or liquipedia before saying blatantly false things. Or you could keep doing this and making me do it for you. Please choose the former lmao
Even though Anarchy is an obvious troll and not worth the trouble, thank you for this post. Always like a bit of statistics
I agree with the post for most part but I don't put too much stock in aligulac ratings when comparing the greatest players because they inflate a lot every year. Inno hit his peak in 2017 and has never really gotten near that level but back then, the top player had aligulac rating in the 2700-2800s, unlike nowadays where the number 1 is usually around 3000. I think it's useful in predicting current form (but not perfectly so because it favours players who are strong online like Solar while underestimating players who are weaker online like Stats, who rarely is in top 10 of aligulac rankings).
Definitely a useful tool, but as you say has some flaws.
I mean just by human intuition Innovation’s most dominant form was what in 2013 or so, but his Aligulac rating at the time doesn’t reflect that.
Intangibles such as online performance from the comfort of one’s home vs offline form are hard to account for too.
You probably actually need as much online stuff as possible to get sufficient data to go off, but it’s a different beast what with home comforts, usually low stakes monetarily and there aren’t a huge amount of viewers
I loved the wall of text about Maru, it filled some gaps in me following the scene, made me appreciate a magnificent player that bit more. Hard to keep like 10 years of a game and a players achievements and track them without occasionally having a refresher on them all.
Yeah I think the aligulac thing was by far my weakest point. I threw it in because I happened to have like four aligulac tabs open looking at H2H stats and it caught my eye haha
HotS was when I was following the game the closest so it was easier for me to recall but even some of the stuff I found just looking through results surprised me! It can be fun to take that trip down memory lane
Also been away from TL for too long and I forgot who is and who isn’t worth responding too haha but I had fun doing it anyway
On July 19 2019 05:07 TheAnarchy wrote: I cant believe there are even maru fans LoL. His nickname back in the days was the stincky terran and now he has fans LoL.
I know your trolling but I on the other hand can't possibly understand how someone can hate Maru, I mean unless your Myungsik mom it's kind of like sucker punching a random person on the street.
Maru annoys me moderately by going for the most predictable build possible and somehow catching his opponent off guard with it and winning. And that's when he isn't doing something completely brain-dead like forgetting that buildings can fly. That's still pretty far from hating him, but I get why some people don't like him much.
On July 19 2019 17:53 batatm wrote: we need this post on the front page of TL in some form or another. it's rather hard finding it at this point.
If you click on it @ the tourneys secion it's usually very easy to find. And if you know it's there and it's not amongst the top 5, it's one click more.
On July 19 2019 17:53 batatm wrote: we need this post on the front page of TL in some form or another. it's rather hard finding it at this point.
If you click on it @ the tourneys secion it's usually very easy to find. And if you know it's there and it's not amongst the top 5, it's one click more.
Making this thing made me realize most people use TL very differently than I do, the tournament and general section is always the first thing I look at, and I almost never look at the featured or community news, but vote amount triple when I made a new thread that was feature on community news.
Anyhow if someone want to put this on reddit they would be an angel I know someone did it last week, never bad to bring more trafic to tl
On July 19 2019 17:53 batatm wrote: we need this post on the front page of TL in some form or another. it's rather hard finding it at this point.
If you click on it @ the tourneys secion it's usually very easy to find. And if you know it's there and it's not amongst the top 5, it's one click more.
Making this thing made me realize most people use TL very differently than I do, the tournament and general section is always the first thing I look at, and I almost never look at the featured or community news, but vote amount triple when I made a new thread that was feature on community news.
Anyhow if someone want to put this on reddit they would be an angel I know someone did it last week, never bad to bring more trafic to tl
I don't understand the problem. Subscribe to the thread and you will always have it handy. I don't even often look at the sidebar. I navigate straight to my subscribed threads. The sidebar (and other sections of TL) is only for finding new threads to subscribe to.
So now I think we get to the tough part where all three of the terran players will be very close to one another in poll results. Whenever this kind of discussion has happened in the past, it's been very close, so will be interesting to see the final order.
On July 19 2019 17:53 batatm wrote: we need this post on the front page of TL in some form or another. it's rather hard finding it at this point.
If you click on it @ the tourneys secion it's usually very easy to find. And if you know it's there and it's not amongst the top 5, it's one click more.
Making this thing made me realize most people use TL very differently than I do, the tournament and general section is always the first thing I look at, and I almost never look at the featured or community news, but vote amount triple when I made a new thread that was feature on community news.
Anyhow if someone want to put this on reddit they would be an angel I know someone did it last week, never bad to bring more trafic to tl
I don't understand the problem. Subscribe to the thread and you will always have it handy. I don't even often look at the sidebar. I navigate straight to my subscribed threads. The sidebar (and other sections of TL) is only for finding new threads to subscribe to.
On July 19 2019 19:30 Yonnua wrote: So now I think we get to the tough part where all three of the terran players will be very close to one another in poll results. Whenever this kind of discussion has happened in the past, it's been very close, so will be interesting to see the final order.
On July 19 2019 17:53 batatm wrote: we need this post on the front page of TL in some form or another. it's rather hard finding it at this point.
If you click on it @ the tourneys secion it's usually very easy to find. And if you know it's there and it's not amongst the top 5, it's one click more.
Making this thing made me realize most people use TL very differently than I do, the tournament and general section is always the first thing I look at, and I almost never look at the featured or community news, but vote amount triple when I made a new thread that was feature on community news.
Anyhow if someone want to put this on reddit they would be an angel I know someone did it last week, never bad to bring more trafic to tl
I don't understand the problem. Subscribe to the thread and you will always have it handy. I don't even often look at the sidebar. I navigate straight to my subscribed threads. The sidebar (and other sections of TL) is only for finding new threads to subscribe to.
Wait you can subscribe to thread?
Yes... lol. There's a button at the bottom to subscribe/unsubscribe. Then the button next to your inbox (the little folder icon) takes you to all your subscribed threads (you can also navigate to show your quoted posts from that same button). You also subscribe automatically to all your own threads and any thread you post in.
Best part is that it tracks the last post you saw, and it tells you how many are new, and gives you a button to skip straight to the first unseen post.
On July 19 2019 17:53 batatm wrote: we need this post on the front page of TL in some form or another. it's rather hard finding it at this point.
If you click on it @ the tourneys secion it's usually very easy to find. And if you know it's there and it's not amongst the top 5, it's one click more.
Making this thing made me realize most people use TL very differently than I do, the tournament and general section is always the first thing I look at, and I almost never look at the featured or community news, but vote amount triple when I made a new thread that was feature on community news.
Anyhow if someone want to put this on reddit they would be an angel I know someone did it last week, never bad to bring more trafic to tl
I don't understand the problem. Subscribe to the thread and you will always have it handy. I don't even often look at the sidebar. I navigate straight to my subscribed threads. The sidebar (and other sections of TL) is only for finding new threads to subscribe to.
Wait you can subscribe to thread?
Yes... lol. There's a button at the bottom to subscribe/unsubscribe. Then the button next to your inbox (the little folder icon) takes you to all your subscribed threads (you can also navigate to show your quoted posts from that same button). You also subscribe automatically to all your own threads and any thread you post in.
Best part is that it tracks the last post you saw, and it tells you how many are new, and gives you a button to skip straight to the first unseen post.
On July 19 2019 19:30 Yonnua wrote: So now I think we get to the tough part where all three of the terran players will be very close to one another in poll results. Whenever this kind of discussion has happened in the past, it's been very close, so will be interesting to see the final order.
soO GOAT, of course
I voted for soO, but only for the meme value that could have been generated if he lost this in the finals and placed second.
On July 19 2019 22:47 BisuDagger wrote: Zest's ability to destroy the hearts of SKT fans puts him above Stats even though I cheer against him vehemently because of that.
Eh, it's a very hard decision; the only thing we can say against Stats is that he performs terribly online.
Zest is really underrated here. He certainly had a better streak of dominance than Stats. He was the best player of 2014 (winning three korean cups puts him tied with Mvp, INno, and Maru for most in one year). He was also the best player for a portion of 2016, having the most dominant GSL run since NesTea. And he won over two different expansions (Stats was underrated in 2015 but didn't exactly win GSLs).
Stats has never been the best player in the world, or had a similar streak of dominance. I guess his streak from late 2016-2017 was great, but he was consistently #2 or #3.
I don't think anyone's gonna say that Zest didn't have the highest peak of any protoss. He owned PvP and PvZ in HotS, as well as PvT in early LotV. Plus he's is the absolute GOAT in PvP and I don't think there's any argument against that. It's pretty rare for one player to be undisputed as the best in a particular matchup.
Stats has been more consistant (always a contender from 2015-2019), but I do think recency bias is a factor here.
On July 20 2019 00:20 Fango wrote: Zest is really underrated here. He certainly had a better streak of dominance than Stats. He was the best player of 2014 (winning three korean cups puts him tied with Mvp, INno, and Maru for most in one year). He was also the best player for a portion of 2016, having the most dominant GSL run since NesTea. And he won over two different expansions (Stats was underrated in 2015 but didn't exactly win GSLs).
Stats has never been the best player in the world, or had a similar streak of dominance. I guess his streak from late 2016-2017 was great, but he was consistently #2 or #3.
I don't think anyone's gonna say that Zest didn't have the highest peak of any protoss. He owned PvP and PvZ in HotS, as well as PvT in early LotV. Plus he's is the absolute GOAT in PvP and I don't think there's any argument against that. It's pretty rare for one player to be undisputed as the best in a particular matchup.
Stats has been more consistant (always a contender from 2015-2019), but I do think recency bias is a factor here.
Just ignore the fact he won two starleagues in 2017
On July 20 2019 00:20 Fango wrote: Zest is really underrated here. He certainly had a better streak of dominance than Stats. He was the best player of 2014 (winning three korean cups puts him tied with Mvp, INno, and Maru for most in one year). He was also the best player for a portion of 2016, having the most dominant GSL run since NesTea. And he won over two different expansions (Stats was underrated in 2015 but didn't exactly win GSLs).
Stats has never been the best player in the world, or had a similar streak of dominance. I guess his streak from late 2016-2017 was great, but he was consistently #2 or #3.
I don't think anyone's gonna say that Zest didn't have the highest peak of any protoss. He owned PvP and PvZ in HotS, as well as PvT in early LotV. Plus he's is the absolute GOAT in PvP and I don't think there's any argument against that. It's pretty rare for one player to be undisputed as the best in a particular matchup.
Stats has been more consistant (always a contender from 2015-2019), but I do think recency bias is a factor here.
Just ignore the fact he won two starleagues in 2017
And he still wasn't the best player when he won either of them. I don't remember anyone ranking Stats higher than INno (who also won two) or Rogue (who won like four premier events in a row).
On July 20 2019 00:20 Fango wrote: Zest is really underrated here. He certainly had a better streak of dominance than Stats. He was the best player of 2014 (winning three korean cups puts him tied with Mvp, INno, and Maru for most in one year). He was also the best player for a portion of 2016, having the most dominant GSL run since NesTea. And he won over two different expansions (Stats was underrated in 2015 but didn't exactly win GSLs).
Stats has never been the best player in the world, or had a similar streak of dominance. I guess his streak from late 2016-2017 was great, but he was consistently #2 or #3.
I don't think anyone's gonna say that Zest didn't have the highest peak of any protoss. He owned PvP and PvZ in HotS, as well as PvT in early LotV. Plus he's is the absolute GOAT in PvP and I don't think there's any argument against that. It's pretty rare for one player to be undisputed as the best in a particular matchup.
Stats has been more consistant (always a contender from 2015-2019), but I do think recency bias is a factor here.
Just ignore the fact he won two starleagues in 2017
And he still wasn't the best player when he won either of them. I don't remember anyone ranking Stats higher than INno (who also won two) or Rogue (who won like four premier events in a row).
He was absolutely the best player when he won GSL. He'd made the finals of each of three of the four premier tournaments of that season so far in IEM Katowice, Gyeonggi and then GSL.
Zest definitely had higher peaks than Stats, but he also had way more dissapointments between his relatively short peaks.
Stats may not have been the best player in the world at any point in his career but he has been the best player of his race for like 80% of the current expansion, including some of the darkest hours of Protoss when the likes of Zest, Classic or sOs completely dissapeared. Consistency, even at the highest level is an often overlooked virtue, so I'm gonna give Stats the edge here.
On July 20 2019 00:20 Fango wrote: Zest is really underrated here. He certainly had a better streak of dominance than Stats. He was the best player of 2014 (winning three korean cups puts him tied with Mvp, INno, and Maru for most in one year). He was also the best player for a portion of 2016, having the most dominant GSL run since NesTea. And he won over two different expansions (Stats was underrated in 2015 but didn't exactly win GSLs).
Stats has never been the best player in the world, or had a similar streak of dominance. I guess his streak from late 2016-2017 was great, but he was consistently #2 or #3.
I don't think anyone's gonna say that Zest didn't have the highest peak of any protoss. He owned PvP and PvZ in HotS, as well as PvT in early LotV. Plus he's is the absolute GOAT in PvP and I don't think there's any argument against that. It's pretty rare for one player to be undisputed as the best in a particular matchup.
Stats has been more consistant (always a contender from 2015-2019), but I do think recency bias is a factor here.
Just ignore the fact he won two starleagues in 2017
And he still wasn't the best player when he won either of them. I don't remember anyone ranking Stats higher than INno (who also won two) or Rogue (who won like four premier events in a row).
He was absolutely the best player when he won GSL. He'd made the finals of each of three of the four premier tournaments of that season so far in IEM Katowice, Gyeonggi and then GSL.
Honestly INno > Stats around that time. If Stats had won either of the IEM finals maybe.
yeah Stats and Dark are on track to qualifying for 4 Blizzcon in a row (and I would argue it's harder to make Blizzcon in LotV even if you believe the competition is weaker since there are only 8 Korean spots). It's hard to think of players as consistent as them.
On July 20 2019 00:20 Fango wrote: Zest is really underrated here. He certainly had a better streak of dominance than Stats. He was the best player of 2014 (winning three korean cups puts him tied with Mvp, INno, and Maru for most in one year). He was also the best player for a portion of 2016, having the most dominant GSL run since NesTea. And he won over two different expansions (Stats was underrated in 2015 but didn't exactly win GSLs).
Stats has never been the best player in the world, or had a similar streak of dominance. I guess his streak from late 2016-2017 was great, but he was consistently #2 or #3.
I don't think anyone's gonna say that Zest didn't have the highest peak of any protoss. He owned PvP and PvZ in HotS, as well as PvT in early LotV. Plus he's is the absolute GOAT in PvP and I don't think there's any argument against that. It's pretty rare for one player to be undisputed as the best in a particular matchup.
Stats has been more consistant (always a contender from 2015-2019), but I do think recency bias is a factor here.
Just ignore the fact he won two starleagues in 2017
And he still wasn't the best player when he won either of them. I don't remember anyone ranking Stats higher than INno (who also won two) or Rogue (who won like four premier events in a row).
He was absolutely the best player when he won GSL. He'd made the finals of each of three of the four premier tournaments of that season so far in IEM Katowice, Gyeonggi and then GSL.
Honestly INno > Stats around that time. If Stats had won either of the IEM finals maybe.
He really wasn't - he was eliminated in the ro8 of both Katowice and GSL. 2nd - 2nd - 1st is a better record then 1st - ro8 - ro8 no matter how you look at it.
On July 20 2019 00:20 Fango wrote: Zest is really underrated here. He certainly had a better streak of dominance than Stats. He was the best player of 2014 (winning three korean cups puts him tied with Mvp, INno, and Maru for most in one year). He was also the best player for a portion of 2016, having the most dominant GSL run since NesTea. And he won over two different expansions (Stats was underrated in 2015 but didn't exactly win GSLs).
Stats has never been the best player in the world, or had a similar streak of dominance. I guess his streak from late 2016-2017 was great, but he was consistently #2 or #3.
I don't think anyone's gonna say that Zest didn't have the highest peak of any protoss. He owned PvP and PvZ in HotS, as well as PvT in early LotV. Plus he's is the absolute GOAT in PvP and I don't think there's any argument against that. It's pretty rare for one player to be undisputed as the best in a particular matchup.
Stats has been more consistant (always a contender from 2015-2019), but I do think recency bias is a factor here.
Just ignore the fact he won two starleagues in 2017
And he still wasn't the best player when he won either of them. I don't remember anyone ranking Stats higher than INno (who also won two) or Rogue (who won like four premier events in a row).
He was absolutely the best player when he won GSL. He'd made the finals of each of three of the four premier tournaments of that season so far in IEM Katowice, Gyeonggi and then GSL.
Honestly INno > Stats around that time. If Stats had won either of the IEM finals maybe.
He really wasn't - he was eliminated in the ro8 of both Katowice and GSL. 2nd - 2nd - 1st is a better record then 1st - ro8 - ro8 no matter how you look at it.
But yeah Zest > Stats but they are very close.
INno won SSL right after as well, and generally looked like the best player in most events around that time. Plus he personally 4-0'd Stats in the IEM final, that's pretty big if you ask me.
On July 19 2019 19:30 Yonnua wrote: So now I think we get to the tough part where all three of the terran players will be very close to one another in poll results. Whenever this kind of discussion has happened in the past, it's been very close, so will be interesting to see the final order.
We knew it would come to these 3 guys from the start, everything up to this point was a formality. The real shit starts now.
On July 21 2019 06:03 Darkhorse wrote: I voted for soO because as someone already stated the only correct outcome of this whole exercise is for soO to come in second
Oh man, if only it were soO vs Mvp, there might have been a chance.
On July 21 2019 06:03 Darkhorse wrote: I voted for soO because as someone already stated the only correct outcome of this whole exercise is for soO to come in second
Oh man, if only it were soO vs Mvp, there might have been a chance.
On July 20 2019 02:55 yht9657 wrote: Zest definitely had higher peaks than Stats, but he also had way more dissapointments between his relatively short peaks.
Stats may not have been the best player in the world at any point in his career but he has been the best player of his race for like 80% of the current expansion, including some of the darkest hours of Protoss when the likes of Zest, Classic or sOs completely dissapeared. Consistency, even at the highest level is an often overlooked virtue, so I'm gonna give Stats the edge here.
That's my opinion too. Aside from online games, Stats what way less downs imo.
Memes aside soO should get it over INno. Granted I value starleagues more than most, but nothing comes close to soO's four finals streak (well I guess Maru's four wins does but different era).
On July 22 2019 11:40 Nakajin wrote: Polls are closed, update gonna wait, I don't think anyone feel in the mood for this today
+1
Makes you realize how trivial a forum disagreement on goat really is. Even if its fun discussing it, there is more important things to take care of in your every day life. Still looking forward to the polls though, some other day!
On July 22 2019 07:16 neutralrobot wrote: Stats-Zest 40-40 at the moment. I think it's fair that people are a bit torn. For me, Stats' relative consistency has been worth more.
On July 22 2019 07:16 neutralrobot wrote: Stats-Zest 40-40 at the moment. I think it's fair that people are a bit torn. For me, Stats' relative consistency has been worth more.
so that is the 40-40 Golden was talking about
The true SC2 Prophet we were waiting for and didn't recognize him!
On July 22 2019 11:40 Nakajin wrote: Polls are closed, update gonna wait, I don't think anyone feel in the mood for this today
+1
Makes you realize how trivial a forum disagreement on goat really is. Even if its fun discussing it, there is more important things to take care of in your every day life. Still looking forward to the polls though, some other day!
On July 22 2019 11:40 Nakajin wrote: Polls are closed, update gonna wait, I don't think anyone feel in the mood for this today
+1
Makes you realize how trivial a forum disagreement on goat really is. Even if its fun discussing it, there is more important things to take care of in your every day life. Still looking forward to the polls though, some other day!
Your life maybe, you don’t speak for me!
I was planning to submit this to the pylon show for the final week too, now we won't ever have incontrol mercilessly making fun of our choices, and bashing us TL koreaboo.
On July 22 2019 11:40 Nakajin wrote: Polls are closed, update gonna wait, I don't think anyone feel in the mood for this today
+1
Makes you realize how trivial a forum disagreement on goat really is. Even if its fun discussing it, there is more important things to take care of in your every day life. Still looking forward to the polls though, some other day!
Your life maybe, you don’t speak for me!
I was planning to submit this to the pylon show for the final week too, now we won't ever have incontrol mercilessly making fun of our choices, and bashing us TL koreaboo.
Yeah, I posted before I heard. My subsequent posts haven’t been so chirpy.
I hadn’t thought to put it to those guys but it probably would have lead to some great discussion, ideally with Artosis trying to insert Clide in there somewhere
Alright, time to get back to the thick of it, let it be heard that no loss, however great, will ever stop us from pointless argumentations enlighten historical discussion.
Zest wins and his crown TLGOATC (totally an abreviation we cool kid use) best protoss!
(I let the pool open longer but I have a screen cap at the normal hour where Zest is also winning by 1, you can find it in the original thread, so everything is ok)
Gonna post the next polls when I'm back home tonight.
soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
You realize he was talking about 4-8 games in particular, right? He absolutely would've been (though that also would've been a big change to make to history).
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
You realize he was talking about 4-8 games in particular, right? He absolutely would've been (though that also would've been a big change to make to history).
Hm, no, I partly misunderstood what Fango meant, here. It's more like soO is a dozen than a handful of games away being GOAT assuming he would have won all of his GSL finals and BlizzCon; without the latter, soO would have been more or less like Maru is now: a GOAT contender, venerated by those who hold Code S in especially high regards. He wouldn't be my undisputed #1, for example.
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
You realize he was talking about 4-8 games in particular, right? He absolutely would've been (though that also would've been a big change to make to history).
Hm, no, I partly misunderstood what Fango meant, here. It's more like soO is a dozen than a handful of games away being GOAT assuming he would have won all of his GSL finals and BlizzCon; without the latter, soO would have been more or less like Maru is now: a GOAT contender, venerated by those who hold Code S in especially high regards. He wouldn't be my undisputed #1, for example.
Really? With 6 GSL titles, taking one away from INno in the process, it still wouldn't be enough?
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
You realize he was talking about 4-8 games in particular, right? He absolutely would've been (though that also would've been a big change to make to history).
Hm, no, I partly misunderstood what Fango meant, here. It's more like soO is a dozen than a handful of games away being GOAT assuming he would have won all of his GSL finals and BlizzCon; without the latter, soO would have been more or less like Maru is now: a GOAT contender, venerated by those who hold Code S in especially high regards. He wouldn't be my undisputed #1, for example.
Really? With 6 GSL titles, taking one away from INno in the process, it still wouldn't be enough?
According to my criteria, soO wouldn't even be close
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
You realize he was talking about 4-8 games in particular, right? He absolutely would've been (though that also would've been a big change to make to history).
Hm, no, I partly misunderstood what Fango meant, here. It's more like soO is a dozen than a handful of games away being GOAT assuming he would have won all of his GSL finals and BlizzCon; without the latter, soO would have been more or less like Maru is now: a GOAT contender, venerated by those who hold Code S in especially high regards. He wouldn't be my undisputed #1, for example.
Really? With 6 GSL titles, taking one away from INno in the process, it still wouldn't be enough?
According to my criteria, soO wouldn't even be close
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
You realize he was talking about 4-8 games in particular, right? He absolutely would've been (though that also would've been a big change to make to history).
Hm, no, I partly misunderstood what Fango meant, here. It's more like soO is a dozen than a handful of games away being GOAT assuming he would have won all of his GSL finals and BlizzCon; without the latter, soO would have been more or less like Maru is now: a GOAT contender, venerated by those who hold Code S in especially high regards. He wouldn't be my undisputed #1, for example.
Really? With 6 GSL titles, taking one away from INno in the process, it still wouldn't be enough?
Maru is like #4 to my eyes, soO in comparison would have one SSL and one OSL "upgraded" to Code S and WESG improved to IEM World Championship, with less placements. So "Champion soO" would definitely be a GOAT contender to my eyes but I wouldn't be so sure of him being uncontested #1 as you are suggesting; with BlizzCon as well, I guess he would be.
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
You realize he was talking about 4-8 games in particular, right? He absolutely would've been (though that also would've been a big change to make to history).
Hm, no, I partly misunderstood what Fango meant, here. It's more like soO is a dozen than a handful of games away being GOAT assuming he would have won all of his GSL finals and BlizzCon; without the latter, soO would have been more or less like Maru is now: a GOAT contender, venerated by those who hold Code S in especially high regards. He wouldn't be my undisputed #1, for example.
Really? With 6 GSL titles, taking one away from INno in the process, it still wouldn't be enough?
I must ask if you are seriously asking him this question, so, do you?
(when 4 Code S titles in a row against the toughest competition in the KeSPA era isn't enough)
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
You realize he was talking about 4-8 games in particular, right? He absolutely would've been (though that also would've been a big change to make to history).
Hm, no, I partly misunderstood what Fango meant, here. It's more like soO is a dozen than a handful of games away being GOAT assuming he would have won all of his GSL finals and BlizzCon; without the latter, soO would have been more or less like Maru is now: a GOAT contender, venerated by those who hold Code S in especially high regards. He wouldn't be my undisputed #1, for example.
Really? With 6 GSL titles, taking one away from INno in the process, it still wouldn't be enough?
I must ask if you are seriously asking him this question, so, do you?
(when 4 Code S titles in a row against the toughest competition in the KeSPA era isn't enough)
Even in this hypothetical soO wouldn't have won a WCS NA/EU. So how good is he really?
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
You realize he was talking about 4-8 games in particular, right? He absolutely would've been (though that also would've been a big change to make to history).
Hm, no, I partly misunderstood what Fango meant, here. It's more like soO is a dozen than a handful of games away being GOAT assuming he would have won all of his GSL finals and BlizzCon; without the latter, soO would have been more or less like Maru is now: a GOAT contender, venerated by those who hold Code S in especially high regards. He wouldn't be my undisputed #1, for example.
Really? With 6 GSL titles, taking one away from INno in the process, it still wouldn't be enough?
I must ask if you are seriously asking him this question, so, do you?
(when 4 Code S titles in a row against the toughest competition in the KeSPA era isn't enough)
Even in this hypothetical soO wouldn't have won a WCS NA/EU. So how good is he really?
Nice joke, it genuinely made me smile; it's not only about how good he would be, but who is he compared to.
Winning a critical mass of Code S and becoming the most accomplished player in GSL doesn't make you sc2 GOAT by itself.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti pre KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
soO wouldn't have been everyone's undisputed #1 Zerg anyway(we all know who he is); also, 17% seems fair for him against Inno.
I expected Zest to win with a wider margin instead.
You realize he was talking about 4-8 games in particular, right? He absolutely would've been (though that also would've been a big change to make to history).
Hm, no, I partly misunderstood what Fango meant, here. It's more like soO is a dozen than a handful of games away being GOAT assuming he would have won all of his GSL finals and BlizzCon; without the latter, soO would have been more or less like Maru is now: a GOAT contender, venerated by those who hold Code S in especially high regards. He wouldn't be my undisputed #1, for example.
Really? With 6 GSL titles, taking one away from INno in the process, it still wouldn't be enough?
I must ask if you are seriously asking him this question, so, do you?
(when 4 Code S titles in a row against the toughest competition in the KeSPA era isn't enough)
Even in this hypothetical soO wouldn't have won a WCS NA/EU. So how good is he really?
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
Doesn't matter cause we all know that INnoVation was gonna win regardless.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
Doesn't matter cause we all know that INnoVation was gonna win regardless.
Hm, I'm not sure anymore, people really love Maru.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
Mvp won 9 tournaments to Maru's 7 but the difference is that Maru mostly won starleagues while Mvp won a lot of international tournaments. If you take out the 3 GSLs they won, Mvp has a GSL World Championship, Blizzcon invitational, MLG, WCG, IEM and WCS Europe. I don't think that beats GSL, SSL, OSL and WESG, especially since Blizzcon invitational cannot really be compared to other Blizzcons because the prize pool was a lot smaller and there were only 3 Koreans I think.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
Mvp won 9 tournaments to Maru's 7 but the difference is that Maru mostly won starleagues while Mvp won a lot of international tournaments. If you take out the 3 GSLs they won, Mvp has a GSL World Championship, Blizzcon invitational, MLG, WCG, IEM and WCS Europe. I don't think that beats GSL, SSL, OSL and WESG, especially since Blizzcon invitational cannot really be compared to other Blizzcons because the prize pool was a lot smaller and there were only 3 Koreans I think.
This tells me Mvp was a well rounded player who won every kind of tournament everywhere and racked up an impressive amount of victories in the short timespan when he could play properly(actually, well after that possibility ended); he was the undisputed king of WoL and the uncontested best player in the world without any doubt.
Maru, on the other hand, does not have enough international success to be the GOAT; absurdly skilled, the best player ever when it comes to preparational tournaments but ultimately kind of monodimensional. Not to mention his monstrous 2018 was someway eclipsed by Serral's triumphs.
I have to agree with Xain0n here,unlike Maru, prime Mvp just couldn't be tricked, couldn't be fooled, and he knew what to do in almost every game, regardless if he prepared for it or not, he wasnt ahead just mechanically like Maru is (granted, he is very ahead of his peers), he was ahead in the most beautiful aspect of an RTS game : strategy, honestly, Mvp mostly started losing because his hands/body couldn't keep up, his finals with Life reflected that.
I believe that Mvp was the smartest player that has ever graced sc2.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
So hilarious, of course we are all biased except for one or two superhumans that have no bias at all and only judges 100% correct and true accomplishments. Everyone else is just xbiased, ybias, zbias and therefore obviously wrong in everything.
Seems the Serralboys are here. The polls are looking good though, the next matchups will be the truely exciting ones =)
I'm predicting Inno victory because of maru antibias =D
On July 25 2019 07:59 IshinShishi wrote: I have to agree with Xain0n here,unlike Maru, prime Mvp just couldn't be tricked, couldn't be fooled, and he knew what to do in almost every game, regardless if he prepared for it or not, he wasnt ahead just mechanically like Maru is (granted, he is very ahead of his peers), he was ahead in the most beautiful aspect of an RTS game : strategy, honestly, Mvp mostly started losing because his hands/body couldn't keep up, his finals with Life reflected that.
I believe that Mvp was the smartest player that has ever graced sc2.
Mvp is one of my favorite players ever but let's not forget that even during 2011 which was his most dominant year and before his wrist issues got really bad he got eliminated in the ro32 of Code S and then lost in the up/down matches as well and spent a season in Code A. No one has ever been as untouchable as what you're talking about there. Everyone even during their most dominant peaks has weird losses. People just forget them when thinking about the best players of the past but remember them when thinking about recent players. Recency bias works both ways.
On July 25 2019 07:59 IshinShishi wrote: I have to agree with Xain0n here,unlike Maru, prime Mvp just couldn't be tricked, couldn't be fooled, and he knew what to do in almost every game, regardless if he prepared for it or not, he wasnt ahead just mechanically like Maru is (granted, he is very ahead of his peers), he was ahead in the most beautiful aspect of an RTS game : strategy, honestly, Mvp mostly started losing because his hands/body couldn't keep up, his finals with Life reflected that.
I believe that Mvp was the smartest player that has ever graced sc2.
Mvp is one of my favorite players ever but let's not forget that even during 2011 which was his most dominant year and before his wrist issues got really bad he got eliminated in the ro32 of Code S and then lost in the up/down matches as well and spent a season in Code A. No one has ever been as untouchable as what you're talking about there. Everyone even during their most dominant peaks has weird losses. People just forget them when thinking about the best players of the past but remember them when thinking about recent players. Recency bias works both ways.
He did also failled to win Blizzard cup that year, which was more of a World championship than Blizzcon or WCG were that year IMO.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is]getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Welcome everyone, it's been a long time comingmy ipbirthday wishestneb but after 3 month and 4 round of vote we are left with only 8 man in contention for the title of the greatest in the game.
On July 25 2019 07:59 IshinShishi wrote: I have to agree with Xain0n here,unlike Maru, prime Mvp just couldn't be tricked, couldn't be fooled, and he knew what to do in almost every game, regardless if he prepared for it or not, he wasnt ahead just mechanically like Maru is (granted, he is very ahead of his peers), he was ahead in the most beautiful aspect of an RTS game : strategy, honestly, Mvp mostly started losing because his hands/body couldn't keep up, his finals with Life reflected that.
I believe that Mvp was the smartest player that has ever graced sc2.
Mvp is one of my favorite players ever but let's not forget that even during 2011 which was his most dominant year and before his wrist issues got really bad he got eliminated in the ro32 of Code S and then lost in the up/down matches as well and spent a season in Code A. No one has ever been as untouchable as what you're talking about there. Everyone even during their most dominant peaks has weird losses. People just forget them when thinking about the best players of the past but remember them when thinking about recent players. Recency bias works both ways.
That is exactly how I feel. I followed SC2 much more closely when MVP was the top dog. But he was not nearly as dominant as people remember him. He was without a doubt the best, but he also was beaten convincingly on multiple occasions during his prime.
I voted Maru. I think their accomplishments are pretty similar, but Maru has the longer career and is therefore more impactful.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
Hmm let's see - you value GSL incredibly little and international tournaments incredibly high (regardless of the level of competition "names do not matter, results do!"). You don't value Proleague at all and put extra emphasis on how high of a peak a player reached. I wonder which player benefits the most from your "unbiased" criteria.
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
settle for best Zerg? technically, that's prolly You Know Who. secondly, he's more than a handful of games behind inno and maru. soo would've had to flip like 3 or 4 GSLs his way to be better than them. Maru and Inno and MVP aren't even undisputed #1, but somehow SoO is so close to being way better than them? no...
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
Hmm let's see - you value GSL incredibly little and international tournaments incredibly high (regardless of the level of competition "names do not matter, results do!"). You don't value Proleague at all and put extra emphasis on how high of a peak a player reached. I wonder which player benefits the most from your "unbiased" criteria.
I don't value Code S incredibly little, it's more like I value WCS; what is true is that my jaw doesn't drop as much as yours when four consecutive Code S victories are achieved when Code A is a joke.
I value international tournaments quite high(don't you?), and the phrase "names do no matter, results do" is out of context here; the(most accurate and objective as possible, maybe using Aligulac?) evaluation of both the pool of players in a certain tournament and the path the winner had on his way to the title should affect how worth that victory is. Counting how many koreans are present isn't enough.
I don't value teamleagues that much, it's true, and I find especially arbitrary to hold Proleague in such high regard. Peak vs consistency is not an easy matter, I would say an otherwordly peak is very important but not enough if followed or preceded by years of nothingness while a long career is a positive thing if the results obtained are mosg of the times above mediocrity(unless that player was part time and turns into full pro, or the opposite).
On July 24 2019 09:32 Fango wrote: soO didn't deserve only 17% of the vote he'll have to settle for best zerg even though he was only a handful of games off being everone's undisputed #1
At least Zest didn't go as underrated as I thought he would
settle for best Zerg? technically, that's prolly You Know Who. secondly, he's more than a handful of games behind inno and maru. soo would've had to flip like 3 or 4 GSLs his way to be better than them. Maru and Inno and MVP aren't even undisputed #1, but somehow SoO is so close to being way better than them? no...
soO needed a hand full of games to flip 3 or 4 or 6 GSLs his way. That is his entire point.
It’s a tight one for me anyway, he shades it for me for his results he got when injuries hampered his mechanical chops, plus he solidified a lot of what is standard play now.
If it was a speed running contest Maru would have the best times up on the leaderboard, but Mvp would have figured a bunch of routes and tricks out while having pretty good execution himself, so I’d give it to him on that basis.
I voted Maru cause of the insane GSL streak that he had. He's really won so much for a long time now. I'm still torn between him and Innovation for first place. Mvp in my heart is #1 though.
On July 25 2019 23:25 Fango wrote: Lmao imagine having eight Code S in a year and still only winning two
Lmao imagine there only being 16 top players in Korea and still coming 32nd.
Yeah this falls flat because literally every korean player at some point has bombed out of GSL. I was comparing the two most dominant GSL years that ever happened.
On a serious note, Maru has just done more than Mvp.
His 2018 was more dominant than Mvp's 2011. Not even mentioning the starleagues he won in 2013, 2015, or 2019.
He's been on and off the best terran in the world for seven years now (compared with Mvp's two years) and still more consistant than his rivals like TY, Teaja, or INno.
He's had multiple historic streaks across the expansions. He crushed it from mid 2013 - mid 2014 despite terran being complete garbage. He was at worst the #2 player of 2015. In 2016 he solidified himself as the best proleague player of all time by adding a Flash-level season to his already ridiculous SPL record. And then there's winning four Code S in a row from 2018-2019.
In terms of mechanics he probably has the ever in the game, whether it be the insane TvP micro of HotS or the LotV lategame that at times looks seemingly unbeatable. His micro/macro/multitasking are completely unrivaled, only Serral at his peak last year really compared to that.
GOAT or not, Maru is the best proleague player, best starleague player, best player in terms of mechanics, and as far as I know undisputed as the greatest TvP player. Personally I don't think Mvp can stand up to that just because "he won more weekenders in WoL" or "made a GSL finals while being literally dead".
On July 25 2019 23:25 Fango wrote: Lmao imagine having eight Code S in a year and still only winning two
Lmao imagine there only being 16 top players in Korea and still coming 32nd.
Yeah this falls flat because literally every korean player at some point has bombed out of GSL. I was comparing the two most dominant GSL years that ever happened.
not to mention Mvp has also bombed out in the ro32 during his "dominant" year so that really wasn't the smartest thing to say.
On July 25 2019 23:25 Fango wrote: Lmao imagine having eight Code S in a year and still only winning two
Lmao imagine there only being 16 top players in Korea and still coming 32nd.
Yeah this falls flat because literally every korean player at some point has bombed out of GSL. I was comparing the two most dominant GSL years that ever happened.
not to mention Mvp has also bombed out in the ro32 during his "dominant" year so that really wasn't the smartest thing to say.
When Code A was actually a true competition. Maru played for four more years than Mvp and hasn't yet managed to win more tournaments.
Since you guys love Proleague so much, Maru definitely is not the best Proleague player, Stats is. Maru has a marginally better win ratio but less victories, less ace wins, less all kills.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
On July 25 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: On a serious note, Maru has just done more than Mvp.
His 2018 was more dominant than Mvp's 2011. Not even mentioning the starleagues he won in 2013, 2015, or 2019.
He's been on and off the best terran in the world for seven years now (compared with Mvp's two years) and still more consistant than his rivals like TY, Teaja, or INno.
He's had multiple historic streaks across the expansions. He crushed it from mid 2013 - mid 2014 despite terran being complete garbage. He was at worst the #2 player of 2015. In 2016 he solidified himself as the best proleague player of all time by adding a Flash-level season to his already ridiculous SPL record. And then there's winning four Code S in a row from 2018-2019.
In terms of mechanics he probably has the ever in the game, whether it be the insane TvP micro of HotS or the LotV lategame that at times looks seemingly unbeatable. His micro/macro/multitasking are completely unrivaled, only Serral at his peak last year really compared to that.
GOAT or not, Maru is the best proleague player, best starleague player, best player in terms of mechanics, and as far as I know undisputed as the greatest TvP player. Personally I don't think Mvp can stand up to that just because "he won more weekenders in WoL" or "made a GSL finals while being literally dead".
Very good wrap up. People seem to forget that Maru is not just about the 4 GSL in a row. He is so consistently great for such a long time... MVP is one tier lower than him honestly. He is not even in my top 5. But people here seem to love his and be extremely biased towards him. Same with Taeja, Nestea and other WOL legends
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
And this comment is meant to discredit me? Rofl, it just drags you down in the korean elitist meme, thinking GSL ro8 are better than a WCS victory in 2018. Also, I was not speaking of GSL's ro8 but of ro8 in general.
What makes you think my criteria don't come before the players instead of being modeled towards the one I prefer like you say? Are you assuming I am especially fond of Innovation? I'm not, but he looks like a GOAT to me, just like Mvp and some unnamed one and unlike Maru, who's truly overrated in my opinion?
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
I think one could be even more thorough and include other stuff as well, though it's also clear that at some point it becomes almost negligible unless both players are really close without it. I'd never include any online competition personally, the lack of importance makes this reasonable imo.
I am not saying this system is anywhere close to perfect, but it's a decent starting point even though i personally would change quite a few things (remember that i made it as charitable towards serral as possible without being completely ridiculous!)
So what i get from you is that you dislike the fact that a system like this gives more credit to players who have more results. I understand that Mvp had to retire and thus couldn't get as many, but that's just bad luck for him, i can only look at things which happened and not give him extra credit for things which maybe could have. So yes, players who played longer than him on a very high lvl might just overtake him in a goat ranking solely based on them having more time to get good results. I think that is also fairly reasonable.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
And this comment is meant to discredit me? Rofl, it just drags you down in the korean elitist meme, thinking GSL ro8 are better than a WCS victory in 2018. Also, I was not speaking of GSL's ro8 but of ro8 in general.
What makes you think my criteria don't come before the players instead of being modeled towards the one I prefer like you say? Are you assuming I am especially fond of Innovation? I'm not, but he looks like a GOAT to me, just like Mvp and some unnamed one and unlike Maru, who's truly overrated in my opinion?
Do you honestly think Has or Mana could ever make a GSL ro8? These are players that made WCS finals in 2018. GSL ro8 is just as hard as making WCS finals. And for a WCS without Serral it's as hard as winning.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
And this comment is meant to discredit me? Rofl, it just drags you down in the korean elitist meme, thinking GSL ro8 are better than a WCS victory in 2018. Also, I was not speaking of GSL's ro8 but of ro8 in general.
What makes you think my criteria don't come before the players instead of being modeled towards the one I prefer like you say? Are you assuming I am especially fond of Innovation? I'm not, but he looks like a GOAT to me, just like Mvp and some unnamed one and unlike Maru, who's truly overrated in my opinion?
Do you honestly think Has or Mana could ever make a GSL ro8? These are players that made WCS finals in 2018. GSL ro8 is just as hard as making WCS finals. And for a WCS without Serral it's as hard as winning.
Do you honestly think InCa should have made it to a Code S final? Has was a WCS finalist by chanche while Mana, on the other hand, was beating top tier koreans in 2011-2012...
By the way, let's avoid to reignite this discussion; I know your opinion about WCS, you know mine, we discussed for months and nobody changed idea.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
I think one could be even more thorough and include other stuff as well, though it's also clear that at some point it becomes almost negligible unless both players are really close without it. I'd never include any online competition personally, the lack of importance makes this reasonable imo.
I am not saying this system is anywhere close to perfect, but it's a decent starting point even though i personally would change quite a few things (remember that i made it as charitable towards serral as possible without being completely ridiculous!)
So what i get from you is that you dislike the fact that a system like this gives more credit to players who have more results. I understand that Mvp had to retire and thus couldn't get as many, but that's just bad luck for him, i can only look at things which happened and not give him extra credit for things which maybe could have. So yes, players who played longer than him on a very high lvl might just overtake him in a goat ranking solely based on them having more time to get good results. I think that is also fairly reasonable.
The point is how important those good results are in a GOAT contest and where to make the cut; I don't think, personally, that ro8 is a high enough level to make prolonged consistency as relevant as it is in the system you proposed.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
And this comment is meant to discredit me? Rofl, it just drags you down in the korean elitist meme, thinking GSL ro8 are better than a WCS victory in 2018. Also, I was not speaking of GSL's ro8 but of ro8 in general.
What makes you think my criteria don't come before the players instead of being modeled towards the one I prefer like you say? Are you assuming I am especially fond of Innovation? I'm not, but he looks like a GOAT to me, just like Mvp and some unnamed one and unlike Maru, who's truly overrated in my opinion?
Do you honestly think Has or Mana could ever make a GSL ro8? These are players that made WCS finals in 2018. GSL ro8 is just as hard as making WCS finals. And for a WCS without Serral it's as hard as winning.
Do you honestly think InCa should have made it to a Code S final? Has was a WCS finalist by chanche while Mana, on the other hand, was beating top tier koreans in 2011-2012...
By the way, let's avoid to reignite this discussion; I know your opinion about WCS, you know mine, we discussed for months and nobody changed idea.
Top tier Koreans? MaNa also couldn't make it out of his Code S group, after qualifying
And let's not compare peak MaNa to a 2018 MaNa in the first place
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
I personally wouldn't even count ro8
add that to the list of ridicolous criteria you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible. Counting WCS wins but not counting GSL ro8 lmao...
And this comment is meant to discredit me? Rofl, it just drags you down in the korean elitist meme, thinking GSL ro8 are better than a WCS victory in 2018. Also, I was not speaking of GSL's ro8 but of ro8 in general.
What makes you think my criteria don't come before the players instead of being modeled towards the one I prefer like you say? Are you assuming I am especially fond of Innovation? I'm not, but he looks like a GOAT to me, just like Mvp and some unnamed one and unlike Maru, who's truly overrated in my opinion?
Do you honestly think Has or Mana could ever make a GSL ro8? These are players that made WCS finals in 2018. GSL ro8 is just as hard as making WCS finals. And for a WCS without Serral it's as hard as winning.
Do you honestly think InCa should have made it to a Code S final? Has was a WCS finalist by chanche while Mana, on the other hand, was beating top tier koreans in 2011-2012...
By the way, let's avoid to reignite this discussion; I know your opinion about WCS, you know mine, we discussed for months and nobody changed idea.
Top tier Koreans? MaNa also couldn't make it out of his Code S group, after qualifying
And let's not compare peak MaNa to a 2018 MaNa in the first place
Mc? HerO? MaNa was not top tier last year, but he cannot be compared to Has since he actually was a top foreigner once.
On July 25 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: On a serious note, Maru has just done more than Mvp.
His 2018 was more dominant than Mvp's 2011. Not even mentioning the starleagues he won in 2013, 2015, or 2019.
He's been on and off the best terran in the world for seven years now (compared with Mvp's two years) and still more consistant than his rivals like TY, Teaja, or INno.
He's had multiple historic streaks across the expansions. He crushed it from mid 2013 - mid 2014 despite terran being complete garbage. He was at worst the #2 player of 2015. In 2016 he solidified himself as the best proleague player of all time by adding a Flash-level season to his already ridiculous SPL record. And then there's winning four Code S in a row from 2018-2019.
In terms of mechanics he probably has the ever in the game, whether it be the insane TvP micro of HotS or the LotV lategame that at times looks seemingly unbeatable. His micro/macro/multitasking are completely unrivaled, only Serral at his peak last year really compared to that.
GOAT or not, Maru is the best proleague player, best starleague player, best player in terms of mechanics, and as far as I know undisputed as the greatest TvP player. Personally I don't think Mvp can stand up to that just because "he won more weekenders in WoL" or "made a GSL finals while being literally dead".
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
I think one could be even more thorough and include other stuff as well, though it's also clear that at some point it becomes almost negligible unless both players are really close without it. I'd never include any online competition personally, the lack of importance makes this reasonable imo.
I am not saying this system is anywhere close to perfect, but it's a decent starting point even though i personally would change quite a few things (remember that i made it as charitable towards serral as possible without being completely ridiculous!)
So what i get from you is that you dislike the fact that a system like this gives more credit to players who have more results. I understand that Mvp had to retire and thus couldn't get as many, but that's just bad luck for him, i can only look at things which happened and not give him extra credit for things which maybe could have. So yes, players who played longer than him on a very high lvl might just overtake him in a goat ranking solely based on them having more time to get good results. I think that is also fairly reasonable.
Of course it's reasonable, especially if you keep as high as Maru or Inno(while he had bigger slumps ). Mvp's body failed, he played shortly yet he's this high. What else people need to see? But truth to be told both Maru and Innovation surpassed him based on the test of time. And they both were very tested.
On July 25 2019 23:46 Fango wrote: On a serious note, Maru has just done more than Mvp.
His 2018 was more dominant than Mvp's 2011. Not even mentioning the starleagues he won in 2013, 2015, or 2019.
He's been on and off the best terran in the world for seven years now (compared with Mvp's two years) and still more consistant than his rivals like TY, Teaja, or INno.
He's had multiple historic streaks across the expansions. He crushed it from mid 2013 - mid 2014 despite terran being complete garbage. He was at worst the #2 player of 2015. In 2016 he solidified himself as the best proleague player of all time by adding a Flash-level season to his already ridiculous SPL record. And then there's winning four Code S in a row from 2018-2019.
In terms of mechanics he probably has the ever in the game, whether it be the insane TvP micro of HotS or the LotV lategame that at times looks seemingly unbeatable. His micro/macro/multitasking are completely unrivaled, only Serral at his peak last year really compared to that.
GOAT or not, Maru is the best proleague player, best starleague player, best player in terms of mechanics, and as far as I know undisputed as the greatest TvP player. Personally I don't think Mvp can stand up to that just because "he won more weekenders in WoL" or "made a GSL finals while being literally dead".
It’s a strategy game, enforced by injury yes but Mvp sticking around at top level relevancy for that last GSL run almost purely on strategy due to his mechanical deficit, pretty impressive stuff. His set planning was often exemplary and he gradually transitioned from having a mechanical advantage over the field to a disadvantage and still prospered.
Maru’s incredible too obviously, as sporting analogies go he’s Rory McIlroy to Mvp’s Tiger Woods. If Rory fires and all is well in his world he can demolish a field by 8 shots, if he doesn’t he doesn’t win narrowly, he just doesn’t win. Tiger can grind it, win on a broken leg or whatever.
Maru’s relative weakness in weekenders is mystifying to me because he’s Maru and so mechanically good. His baseline is so good he should be winning more than he does there, not in an insulting way but in a complimentary way to his top level of play.
On July 05 2019 12:55 Nakajin wrote: In Lotv he is a lot willing to transition with composition based on ghost, ravens and liberator, but usually always keeping a good amount of bio-ball, late game still isn’t his most comfortable phase, but it’s one he’s well equipped to battle anyone in.
I think Maru's late game capabilities are hugely underestimated. He is too rational of a thinker in order to aim for the late game when there is an easier way to get to victory earlier. But with mentioned raven/liberator/ghost style last year and vsP ghost/viking/liberator into mass BC this year he showed his big time lategame prowess in which he is an almost impossible obstacle to overcome, once he perfected a certain style. This last condition is indeed a favor that MVP has over Maru. Maru never was particularly good with coming up with ne strategies on the flow. We saw him adapting to certain styles over the course of several matches.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.)
I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain.
That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime.
I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime.
I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.)
I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain.
That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime.
I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime.
I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win.
No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.)
I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain.
That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime.
I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime.
I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win.
No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format.
Happy birthday Nakajin!
We don’t have many Korean posters in here, but I imagine there’s a pretty large gap in perceptions of prestige across the scenes, be it with the non GSL Starleagues or Proleague
There also hasn’t really been enough stability in terms of tournament structure and competitions over SC2’s lifespan for things to settle down and the prestige hierarchy really get established
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.)
I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain.
That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime.
I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime.
I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win.
No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format.
We don’t have many Korean posters in here, but I imagine there’s a pretty large gap in perceptions of prestige across the scenes, be it with the non GSL Starleagues or Proleague
Was in Solar who said that dreamhacks weren't real tournaments or something along those lines?
In any case SSL and OSL shouldn't be held any lower than GSL. Especially when the OSL in question was just GSL season 2 of that year but with OGN broadcasting part of it. People seem to forget about SSL because it stopped running. Players like Maru, Dream, Dark, herO, Classic etc have gone underrated compared with if they won GSL instead.
On July 25 2019 04:06 renaissanceMAN wrote: MVP > MARU CMON DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR TERRAN HISTORY?
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.)
I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain.
That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime.
I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime.
I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win.
No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format.
We don’t have many Korean posters in here, but I imagine there’s a pretty large gap in perceptions of prestige across the scenes, be it with the non GSL Starleagues or Proleague
Was in Solar who said that dreamhacks weren't real tournaments or something along those lines?
In any case SSL and OSL shouldn't be held any lower than GSL. Especially when the OSL in question was just GSL season 2 of that year but with OGN broadcasting part of it. People seem to forget about SSL because it stopped running. Players like Maru, Dream, Dark, herO, Classic etc have gone underrated compared with if they won GSL instead.
The formats are quite different though- the OSL Maru won used Bo1 in the group stage, and the SSL he won didn't have a Ro32. It's hard to say that the tournaments are automatically equal to a GSL in terms of difficulty.
The real test should be to look at who the players beat along the way, and how difficult that was in the context at the time, rather than just looking at tournaments and assuming the runs were equivalent.
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.)
I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain.
That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime.
I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime.
I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win.
No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format.
We don’t have many Korean posters in here, but I imagine there’s a pretty large gap in perceptions of prestige across the scenes, be it with the non GSL Starleagues or Proleague
Was in Solar who said that dreamhacks weren't real tournaments or something along those lines?
In any case SSL and OSL shouldn't be held any lower than GSL. Especially when the OSL in question was just GSL season 2 of that year but with OGN broadcasting part of it. People seem to forget about SSL because it stopped running. Players like Maru, Dream, Dark, herO, Classic etc have gone underrated compared with if they won GSL instead.
The formats are quite different though- the OSL Maru won used Bo1 in the group stage, and the SSL he won didn't have a Ro32. It's hard to say that the tournaments are automatically equal to a GSL in terms of difficulty.
The real test should be to look at who the players beat along the way, and how difficult that was in the context at the time, rather than just looking at tournaments and assuming the runs were equivalent.
Personally I felt like the 2015-16 version of SSL was more competitive than the GSL format, the challenger league made for a version of Code A that was more appropriate with the lower number of pro players in the scenes. I would love for the GSL to take a note out of the SSL
Stuchiu would curse them all. It's due to recency bias in favor of Maru, anti KeSpa bias against Mvp and the fact that people think four consecutive Code S by itself would propel anyone to GOAT status, let alone one already fairly accomplished player.
or it's because some people have other criteria than the ones you made up to make your favourite player look as good as possible.
Enlighten me, what am I missing?
What you are missing? Looking at the results holistically like it would be reasonable. Go ahead and apply this system to both their careers and see what comes from it. If you think the values are completely unreasonable (i think they overvalue weekenders and wcs but you surely remember i wanted to prove a point with classic vs serral) then change them before you apply it and make us see the reasoning/details.
I am not sure who would be ahead, i'd like to see it though (and this time i am too lazy to actually try to apply some form of reasonable system instead of just talking completely out of my ass). Ideally one would have some way to include teamleague results as well, it was a fairly big part of sc2 during the kespa days especially.
Well, I think those values overrate OSL and SSL, they never had the same prestige as Code S but I can deal with it.
I do not even need to count to know your system would favor Maru who, in his career lasting FIVE more years than Mvp's, collected 14 more ro8 placements; those equates to two mid tier Premier tournaments out of the air. Great consistency, sure, but real greatness? I personally wouldn't even count ro8(and I told you already when we were speaking of Serral); otherwise let's just go and count every Major, every weekly event, every ro32 placement and so on.
They didn't have the same prestige but that 2013 OSL literally was held in place of GSL because of the KESPA/Blizzard/GOM/OGN tense negotiations. It had all the same players a GSL would, used I think the identical format, and 2013-2014 was probably the highest skill era (TM). I don't know as much about Maru's SSL other than it probably had a lot of GSL players in it, but his OSL literally is a GSL that was run by a non-GOM company, other than that everything was the same. (EDIT: It was Bo1 in the ro32 which is kinda poo I guess.)
I went back and looked at Maru's run in OSL. He lost to SoO but beat sOs and Effort. He beat Supernova and Trap in the weakest ro16 group (Supernova was really good at TvT back then). Then he beat Symbol (who had just beaten Parting and Soo), and in legendary fashion 4-0 Innovation and beat Rain.
That's beating 4 champion caliber players, and 2 GSL finalists. Innovation and Rain in their prime.
I took a cursory look at his SSL, and it was much of the same, defeating legends and near-legends in their prime.
I think you're confusing a supertournament or a kespa cup or a GSL vs world with those OSL and SSLs. They don't have the prestigious name, but they were just as stacked as any Korean Starleague. Maybe the mini-tourneys are easier, but those non GSL Starleagues were just as difficult to win.
No, don't worry, I'm not confusing anything. I spoke of prestige in fact, OSL at least was a GSL under another name while SSL had a different format.
We don’t have many Korean posters in here, but I imagine there’s a pretty large gap in perceptions of prestige across the scenes, be it with the non GSL Starleagues or Proleague
Was in Solar who said that dreamhacks weren't real tournaments or something along those lines?
In any case SSL and OSL shouldn't be held any lower than GSL. Especially when the OSL in question was just GSL season 2 of that year but with OGN broadcasting part of it. People seem to forget about SSL because it stopped running. Players like Maru, Dream, Dark, herO, Classic etc have gone underrated compared with if they won GSL instead.
The real test should be to look at who the players beat along the way, and how difficult that was in the context at the time, rather than just looking at tournaments and assuming the runs were equivalent.
I'd agree with this but also that it should also apply to GSL wins. Some wins are worth more than others. Most people seem to ignore the zergs who won towards the end of WoL for example even if they were still legitimate Code S titles.
On the subject of Maru, his OSL and SSL wins were insane. For OSL he beat sOs, Symbol, INno, and Rain. All of those guys were insane at the time, even beating INno 4-0 who was considered the world's best player by just about everyone.
His SSL win was even more impressive, beating Solar, Dark, Leenock, Stats, and DreaM. Those guys (with the exception of Leenock) were all contenders to win titles at the time.
I mean for me a Starleague is a Starleague, I’m curious as to how they’re perceived in Korea. The foreign viewership by and large don’t seem to value them quite as highly as a GSL, but I can’t see that being the case in Korea. Given how huge BW was and how prestigious the OSL name was for example, whereas many foreign viewers really only entered at SC2
Proleague suffers even more in this regard I believe just given how SC2 has been since it started. I’ve followed SC2 since the early days and it’s for most of the time really felt more individual, more player driven and with players with certain personalities and styles getting the fans over the teams.
Probably a consequence of SC2 being much more foreigner friendly, many events being outside of Korea etc.
You can’t really have good team competitions with a player base that’s way less centralised than it was in BW. Players are all over the place, to do team events requires a lot of travelling expenses etc.
It’s a real shame as I did love team competitions when they did happen, hopefully the scene can find a way to get that element back
Man, I understand TaeJa losing to INno, but Zest? TaeJa has 11 Premiers over the course of 3 years vs Zest's 6 over the course of 3 years, and he beat Zest head-to-head both times when they were both in their prime, and even as recently as last winter's HSC right after he came back from retirement.
On July 27 2019 12:42 Kitai wrote: Man, I understand TaeJa losing to INno, but Zest? TaeJa has 11 Premiers over the course of 3 years vs Zest's 6 over the course of 3 years, and he beat Zest head-to-head both times when they were both in their prime, and even as recently as last winter's HSC right after he came back from retirement.
What gives? >.>
Zest won 2 GSLs where Taeja made no finals. Taeja's 11 premiers were not that impressive as it sounds.
Can someone explain to me how those SSLs worked? I've looked at liquidpedia and can't figure out exactly what the hell was going on. I think SoO even has like a 2016 SSL Code A win or something because it worked oldschool like that?
I can even understand 2012 GSL with the Up or Down and Code A, etc, but I didn't watch the SSLs so the format looks kinda wack.
On July 27 2019 15:52 RatzBarcode wrote: Can someone explain to me how those SSLs worked? I've looked at liquidpedia and can't figure out exactly what the hell was going on. I think SoO even has like a 2016 SSL Code A win or something because it worked oldschool like that?
I can even understand 2012 GSL with the Up or Down and Code A, etc, but I didn't watch the SSLs so the format looks kinda wack.
2015 SSL was the same format as GSL, but with only 16 players (pre-eliminations were bo5 between 32 to thin it out for groups)
The LotV SSL consistent of multiple stages, but the main gist was big round robin group into proleague-like bracket for the premier, and round robin groups for the challenger. Placements in premier and challenger determined your destined league in the next SSL, but in the end, that event never took place and SpoTV pulled out of SC2.
On July 27 2019 20:44 Amarillo Caballero wrote: For a professional player, Prestige = Prize Money. "Prestige" doesn't pay bills.
For a lot of sc2 players their jobs were playing in proleague, that's literally what they were employed to do and what paid their bills.
And you don't know what motivation pro players have. Many of them probably value winning starleagues or proleague above prize money. Was MC was the GOAT for like 7 years because he was top earner? Was Maru earning $100K at WeSG 2017 beating only tier 3 players worth more than any of the starleagues he won?
On July 27 2019 20:44 Amarillo Caballero wrote: For a professional player, Prestige = Prize Money. "Prestige" doesn't pay bills.
If you give soO the choice between winning GSL and getting 2nd at Blizzcon I'm pretty sure he chooses the former despite the latter gaining him far more money.
On July 27 2019 20:44 Amarillo Caballero wrote: For a professional player, Prestige = Prize Money. "Prestige" doesn't pay bills.
If you give soO the choice between winning GSL and getting 2nd at Blizzcon I'm pretty sure he chooses the former despite the latter gaining him far more money.
not sure. maybe back when soO had never won a major championship, but I'm pretty sure now he would take the money. 100k is pretty nice
On July 27 2019 20:44 Amarillo Caballero wrote: For a professional player, Prestige = Prize Money. "Prestige" doesn't pay bills.
If you give soO the choice between winning GSL and getting 2nd at Blizzcon I'm pretty sure he chooses the former despite the latter gaining him far more money.
Maybe it was just a meme, but I vaguely remember soO saying something about wiping away his tears with money after Blizzcon 2017.
On July 27 2019 20:44 Amarillo Caballero wrote: For a professional player, Prestige = Prize Money. "Prestige" doesn't pay bills.
money =/= success. You might want to think more about that, cuz you will lead a very disappointing life if money is all that success means to you
Well I imagine for most player sc2 it is true that prize money prime over prestige since most player probably have an hard time paying their bill/ staying a pro, someone like Keen made about 10K a year in Starcraft (more when he had a salary of course but can't be that much), even tho pro-gamer life isn't especially expensive a big payday would change his life, comming out of the military with no degree and having work at about the korean minimum wage isn't that great.
Still for most successfull player I of course agree that prestige wins are more important than another 50K
Loved the Maru vs MVP comparison, got really in-depth too and covered angles that are really interesting like online cups and charisma. For me Marus achievements overall overshadow everyone else but it is really close
After more than 5 months of voting (each days more necessary than the other) we are finally down to two players! And in a week we'll know who the TL community chooses as GOAT
This is a hard one both to vote for and predict. I ended up voting for INnoVatioN, but I'd guess that Maru will win since he has the recency advantage.
Maru vs Inno is super close and basically comes down to whether you value results over time or one big streak. Inno has more trophies in total, but Maru won most of his in the span of 12 months. Inno started in 2012 and won at a steady pace, Maru started in 2010 but peaked in 2018.
Both of them are pretty accomplished in teamleagues, so I don't think that will play any part here. Both of them largely played in the same country and the same scene at the same time, against the same competition. Even the total amount of time they spent at the top is roughly the same. Hell, more than half of both of their trophies are exactly the same–remove the common ones and you get 2 starleagues vs 4 weekenders.
Honestly, I don't think there really can be a definitive winner here. It all comes down to how you weight results. I've always thought of GOAT as a strict count of results without regard to time, so I voted Inno. But that definition is up for interpretation. I was initially leaning Maru until I went back and compared their results directly.
When I think about it again, they are so neck and neck in achievements. Maru had better peak than Innovation but Inno had better winrates offline and accomplished as much in a shorter career. I feel like if Innovation was more motivated in 2016 and in recent years, he would've been decisively the GOAT. Ultimately I chose Inno because he's one of my favourite players but objectively, I think they are literally tied.
Edit: Also, the fact that Inno was greater in a more competitive era (2013-2015) also is a point in his favour.
On July 29 2019 14:46 pvsnp wrote: Maru vs Inno is actually super close and basically comes down to whether you value results over time or one big streak. Inno has more trophies in total, but Maru won most of his in the span of 12 months. Inno started in 2012 and won at a steady pace, Maru started in 2010 but peaked in 2018.
Maru still needs to prove himself outside korea in my opinion to be considered the GOAT. Still, it's a close one.
On July 29 2019 14:46 pvsnp wrote: Maru vs Inno is actually super close and basically comes down to whether you value results over time or one big streak. Inno has more trophies in total, but Maru won most of his in the span of 12 months. Inno started in 2012 and won at a steady pace, Maru started in 2010 but peaked in 2018.
Both of them are pretty accomplished in teamleagues, so I don't think that will play any part here. Both of them largely played in the same country and the same scene at the same time, against the same competition. Even the total amount of time they spent at the top is roughly the same. Hell, more than half of both of their trophies are exactly the same–remove the common ones and you get 2 starleagues vs 4 weekenders.
Honestly, I don't think there really can be a definitive winner here. It all comes down to how you weight results. I've always thought of GOAT as a strict count of results without regard to time, so I voted Inno. But that definition is up for interpretation. I was initially leaning Maru until I went back and compared their results directly.
Yeah they are incredibly close in results. I choose Inno though because he has been succesful in both formats - weekenders and Starleagues as opposed to Maru who other than WESG has only had success in Starleagues. But looking at their recent forms I think it's only a matter of time until Maru takes the mantle.
I chose Maru because his 4 GSL wins in a row probably won’t be matched ever, which makes it the greatest feat. When you add that to his already nice resume, it becomes a no brainer.
He is also the most gifted mechanically currently, and he is only like 21yo so if sc2 stays alive he’ll win more than INno.
Voted for Mvp against soO because it’s not even comparable.
On July 27 2019 20:44 Amarillo Caballero wrote: For a professional player, Prestige = Prize Money. "Prestige" doesn't pay bills.
money =/= success. You might want to think more about that, cuz you will lead a very disappointing life if money is all that success means to you
You do realize different people measure success diferentially? And I would say a good number of people will tell you that success equals to money
On July 29 2019 13:45 ZigguratOfUr wrote: This is a hard one both to vote for and predict. I ended up voting for INnoVatioN, but I'd guess that Maru will win since he has the recency advantage.
Also the Chinese fanbase... don't forget about that
Weekenders - INno (duh) Starleagues - Maru (duh) Teamleagues - slight edge to Maru because of SPL results, but it's pretty damn close here.
Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times).
Peak - Maru (this isn't really up for debate). In terms of results overall they're pretty close, but in terms of gameplay/mechanics Maru takes it over anyone. No one can play sc2 like he does.
Longevity - They both won their first events in mid 2013 (within a month of each other) and their latest in 2019. Then again INno has had greater periods of irrelevency. Also it's worth noting that Maru is in his prime and looks to keep winning. INno isn't winning any more premiers.
Results - it's tough, INno won more tournaments, but Maru's wins are generally worth more. Even INno's starleagues were won with pretty favourable metas. And four Code S in a row is something no one thought was doable.
I said this in the Mvp debate, but (GOAT or not) Maru is the best starleague player, best proleague player, best player in terms of gameplay/mechanics, best player at overcoming balance. and absolute GOAT in TvP. It's hard to give INno the vote over that just because of having more weekenders.
On July 29 2019 23:13 Fango wrote: Weekenders - INno (duh) Starleagues - Maru (duh) Teamleagues - slight edge to Maru because of SPL results, but it's pretty damn close here.
Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times).
Peak - Maru (this isn't really up for debate). In terms of results overall they're pretty close, but in terms of gameplay/mechanics Maru takes it over anyone. No one can play sc2 like he does.
Longevity - They both won their first events in mid 2013 (within a month of each other) and their latest in 2019. Then again INno has had greater periods of irrelevency. Also it's worth noting that Maru is in his prime and looks to keep winning. INno isn't winning any more premiers.
Results - it's tough, INno won more tournaments, but Maru's wins are generally worth more. Even INno's starleagues were won with pretty favourable metas. And four Code S in a row is something no one thought was doable.
I said this in the Mvp debate, but (GOAT or not) Maru is the best starleague player, best proleague player, best player in terms of gameplay/mechanics, best player at overcoming balance. and absolute GOAT in TvP. It's hard to give INno the vote over that just because of having more weekenders.
Inno won WESG... after looking irrelevant for most of 2018. Based on what are you saying he isn't winning any more premiere tournaments?
Also, Maru is not the best proleague player, and "mechanics/gameplay" is completely subjective.
On July 29 2019 23:13 Fango wrote: Weekenders - INno (duh) Starleagues - Maru (duh) Teamleagues - slight edge to Maru because of SPL results, but it's pretty damn close here.
Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times).
Peak - Maru (this isn't really up for debate). In terms of results overall they're pretty close, but in terms of gameplay/mechanics Maru takes it over anyone. No one can play sc2 like he does.
Longevity - They both won their first events in mid 2013 (within a month of each other) and their latest in 2019. Then again INno has had greater periods of irrelevency. Also it's worth noting that Maru is in his prime and looks to keep winning. INno isn't winning any more premiers.
Results - it's tough, INno won more tournaments, but Maru's wins are generally worth more. Even INno's starleagues were won with pretty favourable metas. And four Code S in a row is something no one thought was doable.
I said this in the Mvp debate, but (GOAT or not) Maru is the best starleague player, best proleague player, best player in terms of gameplay/mechanics, best player at overcoming balance. and absolute GOAT in TvP. It's hard to give INno the vote over that just because of having more weekenders.
INno has a 65% record in proleague vs a 66% for Maru, but if you take out the 2011-12 hybrid season where INno went 0-6 in sc2 he goes up to a 70% win rate much higher than Maru + he's one of only 2 key player (with sOs) to win 2 Proleague finals, so I don't think Maru can be best Proleague player.
INno also did exceptionnally well in other teamleague, although Maru had fewer chance to shine in those.
Weekenders are pretty important IMO because they’re so different from Starleagues, both in format, in travel and in playing away from home comforts etc. This actively suits some players, Taeja being a notable one, Starleagues suit some players, Maru being a pretty obvious example, but both those aforementioned players have a notable gap in their palmarès by being relatively underwhelming in one of the two.
In ye olde regular sports being able to win outside of optimal conditions is a frequent tiebreaker between a great player and a GOAT candidate. Winning on golf courses that don’t suit your game’s strengths, or winning on surfaces you’re perceived to be weak on in tennis. Rafael Nadal had to win off the clay of Roland Garros to go from being the best clay counter of all time to being in the conversation for best player of all time.
Maru’s other feats elevate him above most players without some extra weekenders, but I don’t think they’re sufficient to put him above Innovation at this stage.
I have Inno just slightly ahead, but if Maru takes another premier this year and Inno doesn't then I'd probably give him the nod. Imagine if Inno wins Asus ROG + GSL vs the World (if he gets in) and Maru wins GSL?
This is how good these two are. Dating back to 2013 and comparing them year by year, they are tied 2-2 for years where one person clearly got better results then the other person in regards to WCS/GSL/Global Finals results. So then you have to move on to Standalone tournaments. It is to Maru's detriment that he has not participated in as many Standalone or Online tournaments as Innovation has and Innovation has won quite a few or placed very high. Therefore Innovation wins because not only has he been as consistent as Maru, but also achieved more results in the same period of time.
On July 30 2019 01:13 Argonauta wrote: this new weekender fetish that we have since Serral peaked to justify putting him above Maru in 2018 is becoming funnier with time.
Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
On July 29 2019 23:13 Fango wrote: Weekenders - INno (duh) Starleagues - Maru (duh) Teamleagues - slight edge to Maru because of SPL results, but it's pretty damn close here.
Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times).
Peak - Maru (this isn't really up for debate). In terms of results overall they're pretty close, but in terms of gameplay/mechanics Maru takes it over anyone. No one can play sc2 like he does.
Longevity - They both won their first events in mid 2013 (within a month of each other) and their latest in 2019. Then again INno has had greater periods of irrelevency. Also it's worth noting that Maru is in his prime and looks to keep winning. INno isn't winning any more premiers.
Results - it's tough, INno won more tournaments, but Maru's wins are generally worth more. Even INno's starleagues were won with pretty favourable metas. And four Code S in a row is something no one thought was doable.
I said this in the Mvp debate, but (GOAT or not) Maru is the best starleague player, best proleague player, best player in terms of gameplay/mechanics, best player at overcoming balance. and absolute GOAT in TvP. It's hard to give INno the vote over that just because of having more weekenders.
Inno won WESG... after looking irrelevant for most of 2018. Based on what are you saying he isn't winning any more premiere tournaments?
Also, Maru is not the best proleague player, and "mechanics/gameplay" is completely subjective.
WeSG is the the easiest premier to win, he only had to beat like two elite players (both of whom had vT as their weakest matchup). It was a cool send-off but he hasn't looked like a contender in any korean tournament for the last year and a half. I hate to say it but he isn't winning any more premiers. Same with Zest or sOs.
Especially compared to Maru who could win the next 3 korean tournaments without it being a shock. I think everyone could agree that the poll happening now and not in a year or so favours INno here.
I'm don't really wanna go into talking about mechanics/gameplay because that's a long discussion. But INno just doesn't compare in that department. We're comparing a guy who wins almost entirely of exploiting favourable timing attacks in the meta (and falls off big time if there aren't any), to a guy who wins most games by just outmacro'ing/controlling/playing faster than his opponents regardless of composition or meta.
I can get behind arguments for INno being GOAT, it's either him or Maru at this point. But there are few points that aren't really arguable in my eyes. Gameplay and mechanics goes to Maru. He can use any unit set at seemingly any point in a meta and win by just being better. He has the best micro and multitasking of almost anyone.
As for proleague, Maru is being really underrated here.
He was either #1 or #2 in wins every year he competed, is anyone else close to that? Not to mention reaching an 85% winrate in the 2016 season, second only to Flash's 85% in 2010. People call Taeja's IPL the best teamleague performance ever while Maru basically did the same thing but during kespa and against the best players in the world. Both him and INno have a finals Mvp so they're even on that.
INno does have two wins vs Maru's one, but Maru's is certainly the most impressive given how unbelievably hard he carried Jin Air that season (whereas I can see 2015 SKT winning even without INno). I don't have time to look up INno's winrates in playoffs right now, but that was where Maru really stepped up, iirc going 29-13 in playoff matches. It's a shame the stats page on liquipedia doesn't include playoff games because it really undersells how much Maru carried his team.
On July 29 2019 23:13 Fango wrote: Weekenders - INno (duh) Starleagues - Maru (duh) Teamleagues - slight edge to Maru because of SPL results, but it's pretty damn close here.
Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times).
Peak - Maru (this isn't really up for debate). In terms of results overall they're pretty close, but in terms of gameplay/mechanics Maru takes it over anyone. No one can play sc2 like he does.
Longevity - They both won their first events in mid 2013 (within a month of each other) and their latest in 2019. Then again INno has had greater periods of irrelevency. Also it's worth noting that Maru is in his prime and looks to keep winning. INno isn't winning any more premiers.
Results - it's tough, INno won more tournaments, but Maru's wins are generally worth more. Even INno's starleagues were won with pretty favourable metas. And four Code S in a row is something no one thought was doable.
I said this in the Mvp debate, but (GOAT or not) Maru is the best starleague player, best proleague player, best player in terms of gameplay/mechanics, best player at overcoming balance. and absolute GOAT in TvP. It's hard to give INno the vote over that just because of having more weekenders.
Inno won WESG... after looking irrelevant for most of 2018. Based on what are you saying he isn't winning any more premiere tournaments?
Also, Maru is not the best proleague player, and "mechanics/gameplay" is completely subjective.
WeSG is the the easiest premier to win, he only had to beat like two elite players (both of whom had vT as their weakest matchup). It was a cool send-off but he hasn't looked like a contender in any korean tournament for the last year and a half. I hate to say it but he isn't winning any more premiers. Same with Zest or sOs.
Especially compared to Maru who could win the next 3 korean tournaments without it being a shock. I think everyone could agree that the poll happening now and not in a year or so favours INno here.
I'm don't really wanna go into talking about mechanics/gameplay because that's a long discussion. But INno just doesn't compare in that department. We're comparing a guy who wins almost entirely of exploiting favourable timing attacks in the meta (and falls off big time if there aren't any), to a guy who wins most games by just outmacro'ing/controlling/playing faster than his opponents regardless of composition or meta.
He beat the 2 best players in the world back to back, and you're only considering the final bracket. In the first qualifier he beat Cure, Parting, Byun, Gumiho, and lost to Dark. In the second, he beat Fantasy, Patience, Zest, Dear, and Rogue. I don't see how you could argue that he has no shot at winning another premier when he already won one this year (technically 2, but the second was a weak tournament) and his play has been on a slight upward trend since last year outside of his recent gsl group, if anything.
Also, Inno used to be known for his speed and mechanics and was considered the best in the world in that department for quite a while. I agree he relies more on timing attacks now (mostly in TvP, in which case it's hard to blame him too much) and doesn't quite match up to Maru in that regard, but he's still a beast.
Also cast my vote for INnoVation. I think he's just better overall when you consider his longevity and the breadth of his abilities in different tournament formats. He's proven himself to be one of the best in weekenders, Proleague, other team leagues, and preparation-style tournaments, and has done so consistently over a very long period of time.
Maru had one fantastic year for preparation-style and performed almost identically well in proleague, but falls behind INno in the other categories. I won't pretend he's not a contender, but I firmly believe INno is still the GOAT.
P.S. Curse you Nakajin for hiding results even after voting! *shakes fist*
On July 29 2019 23:13 Fango wrote: Weekenders - INno (duh) Starleagues - Maru (duh) Teamleagues - slight edge to Maru because of SPL results, but it's pretty damn close here.
Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times).
Peak - Maru (this isn't really up for debate). In terms of results overall they're pretty close, but in terms of gameplay/mechanics Maru takes it over anyone. No one can play sc2 like he does.
Longevity - They both won their first events in mid 2013 (within a month of each other) and their latest in 2019. Then again INno has had greater periods of irrelevency. Also it's worth noting that Maru is in his prime and looks to keep winning. INno isn't winning any more premiers.
Results - it's tough, INno won more tournaments, but Maru's wins are generally worth more. Even INno's starleagues were won with pretty favourable metas. And four Code S in a row is something no one thought was doable.
I said this in the Mvp debate, but (GOAT or not) Maru is the best starleague player, best proleague player, best player in terms of gameplay/mechanics, best player at overcoming balance. and absolute GOAT in TvP. It's hard to give INno the vote over that just because of having more weekenders.
Inno won WESG... after looking irrelevant for most of 2018. Based on what are you saying he isn't winning any more premiere tournaments?
Also, Maru is not the best proleague player, and "mechanics/gameplay" is completely subjective.
WeSG is the the easiest premier to win, he only had to beat like two elite players (both of whom had vT as their weakest matchup). It was a cool send-off but he hasn't looked like a contender in any korean tournament for the last year and a half. I hate to say it but he isn't winning any more premiers. Same with Zest or sOs.
Especially compared to Maru who could win the next 3 korean tournaments without it being a shock. I think everyone could agree that the poll happening now and not in a year or so favours INno here.
I'm don't really wanna go into talking about mechanics/gameplay because that's a long discussion. But INno just doesn't compare in that department. We're comparing a guy who wins almost entirely of exploiting favourable timing attacks in the meta (and falls off big time if there aren't any), to a guy who wins most games by just outmacro'ing/controlling/playing faster than his opponents regardless of composition or meta.
He beat the 2 best players in the world back to back, and you're only considering the final bracket. In the first qualifier he beat Cure, Parting, Byun, Gumiho, and lost to Dark. In the second, he beat Fantasy, Patience, Zest, Dear, and Rogue. I don't see how you could argue that he has no shot at winning another premier when he already won one this year (technically 2, but the second was a weak tournament) and his play has been on a slight upward trend since last year outside of his recent gsl group, if anything.
Also, Inno used to be known for his speed and mechanics and was considered the best in the world in that department for quite a while. I agree he relies more on timing attacks now (mostly in TvP, in which case it's hard to blame him too much) and doesn't quite match up to Maru in that regard, but he's still a beast.
You think INno would have a chance at winning a tournament that featured a bunch of the best players? Personally I don't think so. I'd happily be proven wrong but right now I'd bet on him never even making a finals again. WeSG was a cool send off but judging by his stream he doesn't even seem that motivated anymore.
Obviously INno has good speed and mechanics, he's up there with the best. But we're comparing him to Maru here. Inno relies on exploiting whatever build is favourable in the meta at any given time. His multitasking has never been his strong suit either. He's best when there's only one thing he needs to practice and when there's only one thing going on at once in a game.
In terms of variety in builds/unit sets, Maru is the absolute king. It terms of micro he's the best with almost anything (with some exceptions ofc, ByuN was better at reapers, INno and DreaM were better at splits vs banes). It's rare to see INno win games with inferior units or at a severe disadvantage in the meta just because he could outmultitask or outcontrol his opponents hard enough, that's almost a trademark for Maru.
A nice example is classic TvP. INno would do what you're supposed to (2-3 base allin/pull the boys). Maru would win by outmultitasking the protoss and having the speed to catch them off guard and either do critical drop damage or snipe certain units (usually colossus).
You can’t really not delve into a discussion about mechanical chops when you say Inno isn’t comparable there. It’s a bold claim, possibly true but not one you can just state without elaboration.
I don’t think he’s quite up there any more, but then again I don’t think the current iteration of Inno is as mechanically scary as he was at his peak.
On July 30 2019 03:10 Kitai wrote: Also cast my vote for INnoVation. I think he's just better overall when you consider his longevity and the breadth of his abilities in different tournament formats. He's proven himself to be one of the best in weekenders, Proleague, other team leagues, and preparation-style tournaments, and has done so consistently over a very long period of time.
Maru had one fantastic year for preparation-style and performed almost identically well in proleague, but falls behind INno in the other categories. I won't pretend he's not a contender, but I firmly believe INno is still the GOAT.
I swear people forget Maru played before 2018 sometimes. He won his first starleague over a year before INno did, and his first tournament a month after INno did. He's been almost always either #1 or #2 terran since 2013 (the only real exception being 2017)
He's also much more consistent than INno if you look back since the start of HotS season-by-season. In korean tournaments anyway. This is what happens when people only remember championships. INno winning one event a year and falling off half the time is somehow more consistent than Maru being ro8/ro4 in everything.
On July 30 2019 03:13 Wombat_NI wrote: You can’t really not delve into a discussion about mechanical chops when you say Inno isn’t comparable there. It’s a bold claim, possibly true but not one you can just state without elaboration.
I'm honestly confused that people wanna go there. I love INno but his way of winning isn't based around being able to react twice as fast or outcontrolling his opponents to any ridiculous degree. He's literally the best player when there's only one thing he has to do. He has very little variety in unit sets or build orders at any given time as well.
On July 30 2019 03:18 Fango wrote: I swear people forget Maru played before 2018 sometimes. He won his first starleague over a year before INno did, and his first tournament a month after INno did. He's been almost always either #1 or #2 terran since 2013 (the only real exception being 2017)
He's also much more consistent than INno if you look back since the start of HotS season-by-season. In korean tournaments anyway. This is what happens when people only remember championships. INno winning one event a year and falling off half the time is somehow more consistent than Maru being ro8/ro4 in everything.
Yea, people do forget Maru played before 2018 when comparing him to INnoVation.
Here's what Maru's list of premier accomplishments looks like before 2018: + Show Spoiler +
If we take the result of this tournament and use the player rankings as their value, we can decide which SC2 team roster contained the greatest players of all time. Such as SKT - Classic, soO, Innovation, Dark roster of 2015 is a pretty insane lineup using the GOAT point value, but there are many others that are comparable. I'd love to see who comes out on top.
This is a tough vote. Inno clearly takes it in terms of tournament wins and overall results, but I really dont like to value players based on the number of premiere tourneys they won. That is why in my opinion Taeja is not a top 8 player. Of course Inno has much better results in Korean starleagues so its not really comparable, but there are other factors to consider.
- Peak play - Play variety - Micro mechanics - Macro mechanics - Consistency
Maru takes it in all these. He is clearly the best macro player ever, no-one has better late game TvP, his control is just out of this world, and I would say he is also slightly better at super lategame TvZ. TvT is the only area where I would give Inno and edge gameplay wise. + Marus micro and success with cheesy builds is legendary at this point.
I really do value Inno and its still a close vote, but I just have to give Maru an edge here. Hopefully he wins a Blizzcon so he can cement his GOAT status much more convincingly. Such a unique player deserves it.
Consistancy - Maru (being always a challenger is more consistant than winning one event a year and being meh for the rest, INno has only made consecutive ro8s in GSL once, Maru has done that countless times).
Wrong! Inno has made consecutive ro8s twice. from 2012 season 5 to 2013 season 1 and from 2014 season 3 to 2015 season 1.
If you count 2013 OSL which was the replacement of GSL back then he has done it even 3 times
On July 30 2019 04:05 BisuDagger wrote: If we take the result of this tournament and use the player rankings as their value, we can decide which SC2 team roster contained the greatest players of all time. Such as SKT - Classic, soO, Innovation, Dark roster of 2015 is a pretty insane lineup using the GOAT point value, but there are many others that are comparable. I'd love to see who comes out on top.
no we can't because this tournament doesn't give an accurate ranking (not even according to community perception) because of bracket luck!
On July 30 2019 04:43 MarianoSC2 wrote: This is a tough vote. Inno clearly takes it in terms of tournament wins and overall results, but I really dont like to value players based on the number of premiere tourneys they won. That is why in my opinion Taeja is not a top 8 player. Of course Inno has much better results in Korean starleagues so its not really comparable, but there are other factors to consider.
- Peak play - Play variety - Micro mechanics - Macro mechanics - Consistency
Maru takes it in all these. He is clearly the best macro player ever, no-one has better late game TvP, his control is just out of this world, and I would say he is also slightly better at super lategame TvZ. TvT is the only area where I would give Inno and edge gameplay wise. + Marus micro and success with cheesy builds is legendary at this point.
I really do value Inno and its still a close vote, but I just have to give Maru an edge here. Hopefully he wins a Blizzcon so he can cement his GOAT status much more convincingly. Such a unique player deserves it.
People rate Taeja so highly basically based on those criteria rather than what he actually won.
He definitely has better TvP than Inno, or anyone else for sure, equally I don’t think the current iteration of the Innobot is the strongest form, not even close, so of course Maru at his peak is going to win out vs a relatively slumping Innovation.
It’s pretty tight really, I think for pure ‘aura’, Mvp was nicknamed the King of Wings for a reason, Inno really felt that cut above and dominant at times in HoTS, and Maru has really shone in Legacy as just feeling like the best Terran/overall player. A strong Blizzcon would probably tip the scales for me if Maru gets it, as Inno has really underperformed there historically.
I think greatness transcends pure numerical comparisons and measured discussions, it’s that feeling of awe and ‘whoa how do you beat this guy?’ you get watching, when someone is playing against the other best players in the business but still feels on another level. They both have it in spades but Inno’s strongest period in pure terms of being ahead of the competition in gameplay terms is something like 6 years ago now, before he even won anything weirdly enough.
Hopefully for the scene 2020 will bring a remotivated Inno, as well as the returning military players getting more into shape.
Here a fun stats: Since the start of 2013 either Maru or INnovation have been in the top 8 of every event at least 1 of them played in with the exception of :
-WCS season 2 final 2013 -Kespa Cup 2014 -Kespa Cup no1 2015 -GSL 2016 season 1 and 2 -SSL 2016 season 1 and 2 -IEM Katowice 2019 -Super tournament no1 2019
So if you take out the first year of LOTV where they both underperformed there was only 5 event where neither INno nor Maru was in the top 8 including a 2 year stretch in 2017-18 when there was one of them in the top 8 of every single event. I could have missed a couple other events but I think thats it
On July 30 2019 07:59 Nakajin wrote: Here a fun stats: Since the start of 2013 either Maru or INnovation have been in the top 8 of every event at least 1 of them played in with the exception of :
-WCS season 2 final 2013 -Kespa Cup 2014 -Kespa Cup no1 2015 -GSL 2016 season 1 and 2 -SSL 2016 season 1 and 2 -IEM Katowice 2019 -Super tournament no1 2019
So if you take out the first year of LOTV where they both underperformed there was only 5 event where neither INno nor Maru was in the top 8 including a 2 year stretch in 2017-18 when there was one of them in the top 8 of every single event. I could have missed a couple other events but I think thats it
On July 30 2019 04:05 BisuDagger wrote: If we take the result of this tournament and use the player rankings as their value, we can decide which SC2 team roster contained the greatest players of all time. Such as SKT - Classic, soO, Innovation, Dark roster of 2015 is a pretty insane lineup using the GOAT point value, but there are many others that are comparable. I'd love to see who comes out on top.
no we can't because this tournament doesn't give an accurate ranking (not even according to community perception) because of bracket luck!
I just mean as an alternative to us doing an entire community vote process like this one for teams. Obviously this tournament isn't flawless, but the results are still fun and we can still use them to further that fun.
While I ofc voted Maru I feel like its Marus weakness lack of weekender achievements vs Innos weakness of only winning when terran is strong that decides which is less great than the other.
For me while I can agree that it feels iffy having a GOAT that cant seem to win weekenders I'm not really sure that I agree that not going to a tournament is a detriment to a players overall achievements. Maru has rarely participated in weekender tournaments, while he has failed the few times he has competed its a bit rough to compare his weekender results with Innos results (who have competed in many more).
Theoretically if Maru won 0 out of 2 and Inno won 3 out of 10 is Innos results really that much more impressive? Obviously some wins are better than no wins but I feel Innos weekender results compated to Maru not competing is being a tad over valued in my opinion.
On the other hand we have Maru who has historically excelled even when terran was weak and Inno that wins in favorable metas. I think Maru is greater but I can totaly get behind a tie =D
On July 31 2019 02:41 Shuffleblade wrote: While I ofc voted Maru I feel like its Marus weakness lack of weekender achievements vs Innos weakness of only winning when terran is strong that decides which is less great than the other.
For me while I can agree that it feels iffy having a GOAT that cant seem to win weekenders I'm not really sure that I agree that not going to a tournament is a detriment to a players overall achievements. Maru has rarely participated in weekender tournaments, while he has failed the few times he has competed its a bit rough to compare his weekender results with Innos results (who have competed in many more).
Theoretically if Maru won 0 out of 2 and Inno won 3 out of 10 is Innos results really that much more impressive? Obviously some wins are better than no wins but I feel Innos weekender results compated to Maru not competing is being a tad over valued in my opinion.
On the other hand we have Maru who has historically excelled even when terran was weak and Inno that wins in favorable metas. I think Maru is greater but I can totaly get behind a tie =D
If we only look at the "big" weekenders like Blizzcon, Katowice, GSLvtW, Super tournament etc Inno hasn't really competed in more of them than Maru - and the small weekenders don't count for much anyway imo like HSC or IEM Gamescom.
On July 31 2019 02:41 Shuffleblade wrote: While I ofc voted Maru I feel like its Marus weakness lack of weekender achievements vs Innos weakness of only winning when terran is strong that decides which is less great than the other.
For me while I can agree that it feels iffy having a GOAT that cant seem to win weekenders I'm not really sure that I agree that not going to a tournament is a detriment to a players overall achievements. Maru has rarely participated in weekender tournaments, while he has failed the few times he has competed its a bit rough to compare his weekender results with Innos results (who have competed in many more).
Theoretically if Maru won 0 out of 2 and Inno won 3 out of 10 is Innos results really that much more impressive? Obviously some wins are better than no wins but I feel Innos weekender results compated to Maru not competing is being a tad over valued in my opinion.
On the other hand we have Maru who has historically excelled even when terran was weak and Inno that wins in favorable metas. I think Maru is greater but I can totaly get behind a tie =D
If we only look at the "big" weekenders like Blizzcon, Katowice, GSLvtW, Super tournament etc Inno hasn't really competed in more of them than Maru - and the small weekenders don't count for much anyway imo like HSC or IEM Gamescom.
You would have to check each and every small tourney because some had better players in them than others. But if you do this, then you have to use the Korean server qualifications for certain tournaments(e.g. WESG) which brings another new level of mess into it Fun, fun, fun
On July 31 2019 02:41 Shuffleblade wrote: While I ofc voted Maru I feel like its Marus weakness lack of weekender achievements vs Innos weakness of only winning when terran is strong that decides which is less great than the other.
For me while I can agree that it feels iffy having a GOAT that cant seem to win weekenders I'm not really sure that I agree that not going to a tournament is a detriment to a players overall achievements. Maru has rarely participated in weekender tournaments, while he has failed the few times he has competed its a bit rough to compare his weekender results with Innos results (who have competed in many more).
Theoretically if Maru won 0 out of 2 and Inno won 3 out of 10 is Innos results really that much more impressive? Obviously some wins are better than no wins but I feel Innos weekender results compated to Maru not competing is being a tad over valued in my opinion.
On the other hand we have Maru who has historically excelled even when terran was weak and Inno that wins in favorable metas. I think Maru is greater but I can totaly get behind a tie =D
If we only look at the "big" weekenders like Blizzcon, Katowice, GSLvtW, Super tournament etc Inno hasn't really competed in more of them than Maru - and the small weekenders don't count for much anyway imo like HSC or IEM Gamescom.
You would have to check each and every small tourney because some had better players in them than others. But if you do this, then you have to use the Korean server qualifications for certain tournaments(e.g. WESG) which brings another new level of mess into it Fun, fun, fun
I crunched the numbers but alas my dog ate my homework ;(
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
Honestly no other player gave me as much fear as Taeja did in tournaments. I'd still probably give it to Inno over Taeja though because of results. Although personally speaking I'd say Life was the best SC2 player simply because he crushed whenever he felt like it and had an innate sense for the game that was matched by probably no other.
On July 31 2019 21:55 parksonsc wrote: Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
For some reason this is not a rare statement, to me though it just doesn't make any sense at all.
I have never seen anyone that could actually expand on why GSL is "not hard" any more, all we get is blanket statements like yours. Poster state that obviously defeating Classsic or Stats now is easier than it was defeating Rain, MC or Zest (when he was on a roll) back in the day.
Its pure crap, defeating the best protoss in the world today is not any easier than it was 1-8 years ago. The only reason defeating the top 10 players in the world would be easier now would be if there was an undisputed best in the world player that was head and shoulders above everyone else. Then obviously winning GSL/blizzcon/any-tournament would not be hard because the player that does it is just simply the best. Does that mean MVP winning all his games was easy, because he was too good?
There is absolutely 0 good reason for being able to say GSL is easier now than in the past, at least not if we are talking about RO32 and forward. Being able to climb through qualifier into code A and onwards into code S RO32 was harder back in the day because there was more good players. But having more good players doesn't make it any harder to win back to back GSL championships because top 4 players always gets seeded into RO32 of next season either way. The RO4 players of previous code S never had to win code A matches just to stay in RO32.
This whole GSL was harder before is just simply not true. (Besides the fact that Serral isn't in it, just like Taeja/Polt/Hero/MMA were at some points world class players that weren't there either)
Even if you want to say GSL is easier, what is easier is the RO32, RO16 and forward isn't as easy as people claim it to be. If it's so easy why no foreigner was able to get to win it? How many Code S finals has mjr Special done? Scarlett? And remember that Scarlett WON a weekender in Korea while not being able to get at least to the finals of Code S. Neeb won a weekender, didn't get past RO4. C'mon, if it's so ezpz, why no one else besides Maru? Also he had to beat the best players to get there, the only top player who's not in Korea is Serral.
Obviously it's not that ezpz. And don't forget that Maru existed BEFORE the god damn 2018. One of the best Proleague player, 2 starleagues from the Inno domination era when he defeated Inno in the 2nd fastest BO7 ever played by Maru... Managed to get into Code S during the famous blink era and he advanced more than "others" ... etc. I don't get why you have to downplay the achievement, if it's so easy why is Innovation not fighting for the Code S title? Where was he? He had 4 damn seasons to show his greatness... Considering the current RO16, where is he now?
From the last 2 years when winning Code S is easier Innovation had 1 Season better than Maru... out of 6 seasons 1. Yet now it's easier than before, that's why he's ... not winning?
On August 01 2019 00:00 deacon.frost wrote: Even if you want to say GSL is easier, what is easier is the RO32, RO16 and forward isn't as easy as people claim it to be. If it's so easy why no foreigner was able to get to win it? How many Code S finals has mjr Special done? Scarlett? And remember that Scarlett WON a weekender in Korea while not being able to get at least to the finals of Code S. Neeb won a weekender, didn't get past RO4. C'mon, if it's so ezpz, why no one else besides Maru? Also he had to beat the best players to get there, the only top player who's not in Korea is Serral.
Obviously it's not that ezpz. And don't forget that Maru existed BEFORE the god damn 2018. One of the best Proleague player, 2 starleagues from the Inno domination era when he defeated Inno in the 2nd fastest BO7 ever played by Maru... Managed to get into Code S during the famous blink era and he advanced more than "others" ... etc. I don't get why you have to downplay the achievement, if it's so easy why is Innovation not fighting for the Code S title? Where was he? He had 4 damn seasons to show his greatness... Considering the current RO16, where is he now?
From the last 2 years when winning Code S is easier Innovation had 1 Season better than Maru... out of 6 seasons 1. Yet now it's easier than before, that's why he's ... not winning?
Well he is older than Maru so we can give him that, but downplaying Maru's GSL runs as "easy now" to argue that INno is better than Maru is a bit silly yes , considering his GSL results.
On August 01 2019 00:00 deacon.frost wrote: Even if you want to say GSL is easier, what is easier is the RO32, RO16 and forward isn't as easy as people claim it to be. If it's so easy why no foreigner was able to get to win it? How many Code S finals has mjr Special done? Scarlett? And remember that Scarlett WON a weekender in Korea while not being able to get at least to the finals of Code S. Neeb won a weekender, didn't get past RO4. C'mon, if it's so ezpz, why no one else besides Maru? Also he had to beat the best players to get there, the only top player who's not in Korea is Serral.
Obviously it's not that ezpz. And don't forget that Maru existed BEFORE the god damn 2018. One of the best Proleague player, 2 starleagues from the Inno domination era when he defeated Inno in the 2nd fastest BO7 ever played by Maru... Managed to get into Code S during the famous blink era and he advanced more than "others" ... etc. I don't get why you have to downplay the achievement, if it's so easy why is Innovation not fighting for the Code S title? Where was he? He had 4 damn seasons to show his greatness... Considering the current RO16, where is he now?
From the last 2 years when winning Code S is easier Innovation had 1 Season better than Maru... out of 6 seasons 1. Yet now it's easier than before, that's why he's ... not winning?
Nobody said winning GSL is easy nowaday but it's certainly easier than in 2013-2015 because the depth of the korean scene is way lower. this is what Code A (!) looked like in 2014. Nowadays Code A doesn't exist anymore and you have to beat mostly amateurs to qualify.
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I can also say Innovation has never been the best player of a year
On August 01 2019 00:00 deacon.frost wrote: Even if you want to say GSL is easier, what is easier is the RO32, RO16 and forward isn't as easy as people claim it to be. If it's so easy why no foreigner was able to get to win it? How many Code S finals has mjr Special done? Scarlett? And remember that Scarlett WON a weekender in Korea while not being able to get at least to the finals of Code S. Neeb won a weekender, didn't get past RO4. C'mon, if it's so ezpz, why no one else besides Maru? Also he had to beat the best players to get there, the only top player who's not in Korea is Serral.
Obviously it's not that ezpz. And don't forget that Maru existed BEFORE the god damn 2018. One of the best Proleague player, 2 starleagues from the Inno domination era when he defeated Inno in the 2nd fastest BO7 ever played by Maru... Managed to get into Code S during the famous blink era and he advanced more than "others" ... etc. I don't get why you have to downplay the achievement, if it's so easy why is Innovation not fighting for the Code S title? Where was he? He had 4 damn seasons to show his greatness... Considering the current RO16, where is he now?
From the last 2 years when winning Code S is easier Innovation had 1 Season better than Maru... out of 6 seasons 1. Yet now it's easier than before, that's why he's ... not winning?
Nobody said winning GSL is easy nowaday but it's certainly easier than in 2013-2015 because the depth of the korean scene is way lower. this is what Code A (!) looked like in 2014. Nowadays Code A doesn't exist anymore and you have to beat mostly amateurs to qualify.
That's what I pointed with the RO32 being easier. THe depth isn't there
The depth I don’t think matters all that much in terms of difficulty to win a tournament, unless the field is really stacked with genuine championship contenders.
Across the eras a player who loses in Ro32 or doesn’t qualify, even if it was a harder era in terms of depth in all likelihood wasn’t in shape that particular season to be a threat to the other contenders.
Even now the Ro32 isn’t worse across the board, there are some weaker groups than before but it’s not always every group, by Ro16 it’s generally back to being stacked and Ro8 on I’d say it’s still as deep as ever.
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
Guys I'm gonna be honest, I do am slightly annoyed that 12 thousand Poles came to TL to fuck up a community vote and not even half of a pourcent of them could be bother to screw mine.
On August 01 2019 14:00 Nakajin wrote: Guys I'm gonna be honest, I do am slightly annoyed that 12 thousand Poles came to TL to fuck up a community vote and not even half of a pourcent of them could be bother to screw mine.
Inno and Maru aren't Polish, if Nerchio, Mana, or Elazer made it to the finals they'd be in the lead by 5000.
On August 01 2019 14:00 Nakajin wrote: Guys I'm gonna be honest, I do am slightly annoyed that 12 thousand Poles came to TL to fuck up a community vote and not even half of a pourcent of them could be bother to screw mine.
How about the fact that they only voted in the Zerg poll and ignored the Terran and Protoss ones. Imagine if they all decided to pick which name sounded the most fun in the other two polls while they were there.
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
According to this thread, 4 GSLs in a row is easy. 2 consecutive RO8's once in a lifetime and weekenders filled with foreigners are the hallmark of a good player tho. If weekenders are so important why aren't we discussing sOs vs Taeja here? I won't even mention Innovation dissapearing from the face of the earth whenever Terran isn't favored.
On August 02 2019 02:53 Wombat_NI wrote: As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
It's probably 2015 Rain, when he won GSL by smashing Maru and ByuL and had arguably top2 PvZ in the world (behind Zest).
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja.
Good shouts, it gets harder the longer a player’s span is to recall specific periods and how their matchups all were
Players may excel at one for a while and another at another time, but looking back they might blend together and feel a monster in both.
It’s probably easier to be fully rounded but be a bit of a lower level of player, I mean definitely easier than Maru raising his vT to the stellar level of his vP
I wonder who the least rounded top tier player is come to think of it. Sadly without something like Proleague a player can’t really make it as a true specialist sniper anymore.
On August 02 2019 06:15 Wombat_NI wrote: Good shouts, it gets harder the longer a player’s span is to recall specific periods and how their matchups all were
Players may excel at one for a while and another at another time, but looking back they might blend together and feel a monster in both.
It’s probably easier to be fully rounded but be a bit of a lower level of player, I mean definitely easier than Maru raising his vT to the stellar level of his vP
I wonder who the least rounded top tier player is come to think of it. Sadly without something like Proleague a player can’t really make it as a true specialist sniper anymore.
If you're a foreigner and your good matchup is against Zerg you can.
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja.
2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too.
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja.
2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too.
No one could touch his bullshit.
The only guy to master the flying tank, i wonder if other players Terrans would eventually catch up if it wasn't removed, everyone talks about his Reapers because of Blizzcon but i think the flying tank was the core to his sucess.
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja.
2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too.
No one could touch his bullshit.
The only guy to master the flying tank, i wonder if other players Terrans would eventually catch up if it wasn't removed, everyone talks about his Reapers because of Blizzcon but i think the flying tank was the core to his sucess.
I still can’t believe that was actually a thing in the game haha
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja.
2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too.
No one could touch his bullshit.
The only guy to master the flying tank, i wonder if other players Terrans would eventually catch up if it wasn't removed, everyone talks about his Reapers because of Blizzcon but i think the flying tank was the core to his sucess.
I still can’t believe that was actually a thing in the game haha
Here's another tiny bit of Starcraft history: INnovation 67% in map and 72,5% in series is the third highest winrate ever. Serral 68,5-74% (altought with a 50/50 vs kr) is the second highest ever.
ByuN has a fucking 71-76% winrate he's 2 and a half point in front of everyone else, if it wasn't for David Kim leaving he would be a 4 time world champ or something.
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja.
2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too.
No one could touch his bullshit.
The only guy to master the flying tank, i wonder if other players Terrans would eventually catch up if it wasn't removed, everyone talks about his Reapers because of Blizzcon but i think the flying tank was the core to his sucess.
I still can’t believe that was actually a thing in the game haha
Here's another tiny bit of Starcraft history: INnovation 67% in map and 72,5% in series is the third highest winrate ever. Serral 68,5-74% (altought with a 50/50 vs kr) is the second highest ever.
ByuN has a fucking 71-76% winrate he's 2 and a half point in front of everyone else, if it wasn't for David Kim leaving he would be a 4 time world champ or something.
Nah, he wouldn't, he was twice as bright and burned twice as fast (or some shit like that ). LAter on he was doing basic micro errors while Tastosis was talking about his top notch micro while looking at him screwing up micro. Good times
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja.
2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too.
No one could touch his bullshit.
The only guy to master the flying tank, i wonder if other players Terrans would eventually catch up if it wasn't removed, everyone talks about his Reapers because of Blizzcon but i think the flying tank was the core to his sucess.
I still can’t believe that was actually a thing in the game haha
Here's another tiny bit of Starcraft history: INnovation 67% in map and 72,5% in series is the third highest winrate ever. Serral 68,5-74% (altought with a 50/50 vs kr) is the second highest ever.
ByuN has a fucking 71-76% winrate he's 2 and a half point in front of everyone else, if it wasn't for David Kim leaving he would be a 4 time world champ or something.
Try to filter out the online matches and see what happens. Also, Serral being 50-50 against koreans is true but misleading(his winratio unsurprisingly skyrockets after 2018).
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja.
2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too.
No one could touch his bullshit.
The only guy to master the flying tank, i wonder if other players Terrans would eventually catch up if it wasn't removed, everyone talks about his Reapers because of Blizzcon but i think the flying tank was the core to his sucess.
I still can’t believe that was actually a thing in the game haha
Here's another tiny bit of Starcraft history: INnovation 67% in map and 72,5% in series is the third highest winrate ever. Serral 68,5-74% (altought with a 50/50 vs kr) is the second highest ever.
ByuN has a fucking 71-76% winrate he's 2 and a half point in front of everyone else, if it wasn't for David Kim leaving he would be a 4 time world champ or something.
Try to filter out the online matches and see what happens. Also, Serral being 50-50 against koreans is true but misleading(his winratio unsurprisingly skyrockets after 2018).
Everyone knows Starcraft highest skills era was played between 6am and 8 am us time on the Chinese server while listening to Rifink agrilly picking a fight with his chat about the different flavours of pickles while ZG tried to say something about the 18th 2-1-1 of the day.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja.
2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too.
No one could touch his bullshit.
The only guy to master the flying tank, i wonder if other players Terrans would eventually catch up if it wasn't removed, everyone talks about his Reapers because of Blizzcon but i think the flying tank was the core to his sucess.
I still can’t believe that was actually a thing in the game haha
Here's another tiny bit of Starcraft history: INnovation 67% in map and 72,5% in series is the third highest winrate ever. Serral 68,5-74% (altought with a 50/50 vs kr) is the second highest ever.
ByuN has a fucking 71-76% winrate he's 2 and a half point in front of everyone else, if it wasn't for David Kim leaving he would be a 4 time world champ or something.
Try to filter out the online matches and see what happens. Also, Serral being 50-50 against koreans is true but misleading(his winratio unsurprisingly skyrockets after 2018).
Everyone knows Starcraft highest skills era was played between 6am and 8 am us time on the Chinese server while listening to Rifink agrilly picking a fight with his chat about the different flavours of pickles while ZG tried to say something about the 18th 2-1-1 of the day.
Byun went to the army while still holding a 7k MMR KR account, it really feels somewhat wrong for him to be outside of top 8 considering how amazingly high his peak was.
On August 02 2019 09:38 IshinShishi wrote: Byun went to the army while still holding a 7k MMR KR account, it really feels somewhat wrong for him to be outside of top 8 considering how amazingly high his peak was.
Yet 7000 mmr didn't help him win anything or reach a grand final or even top 4 of any big tournament since 2017.
Yes he's extremely talented and had a marvelous peak in late 2016 but he still seems like the actual biggest patch Terran in sc2 history. Not to mention his peak also coincided with probably the lowest point of Korean sc2 proscene with the end of Proleague and so many former champions slumping into oblivion.
On August 02 2019 09:38 IshinShishi wrote: Byun went to the army while still holding a 7k MMR KR account, it really feels somewhat wrong for him to be outside of top 8 considering how amazingly high his peak was.
Yet 7000 mmr didn't help him win anything or reach a grand final or even top 4 of any big tournament since 2017.
Yes he's extremely talented and had a marvelous peak in late 2016 but he still seems like the actual biggest patch Terran in sc2 history. Not to mention his peak also coincided with probably the lowest point of Korean sc2 proscene with the end of Proleague and so many former champions slumping into oblivion.
Well, maybe Byun is in the list of the top 8 Terran of Sc2's history(not sure of that, actually), but there is no way he can be placed that high in a GOAT contest. On the other hand, Byun reached ro4 in Code S four years before peaking, him being a patch Terran is equally out out of the question.
On August 02 2019 09:38 IshinShishi wrote: Byun went to the army while still holding a 7k MMR KR account, it really feels somewhat wrong for him to be outside of top 8 considering how amazingly high his peak was.
So all his last performance at 2018 was just an offday? I don't want to shit on him, he was very talented, but MMR doesn't tell us much about BO3+. Maybe BO1 tournament would be better suited for ByuN
On August 02 2019 09:38 IshinShishi wrote: Byun went to the army while still holding a 7k MMR KR account, it really feels somewhat wrong for him to be outside of top 8 considering how amazingly high his peak was.
On July 30 2019 02:30 TheAnarchy wrote: Innovation all the way. Without a doubt. Maru "domination" was disputed by a foreigner thats the lvl of competion he faced. In fact you cant say Maru dominated because he only won one tournament where serral played and he lost 3 (serral winning 2 of them). So we must say serral dominated 2019. You cant compare marus achivement. Innovation played against Life, Taeja, Polt, Bomber, Zest, herO, Rain, etc all in their prime. Maru is playing against Stats, Dark, TY, classic and rogue (serral who doesnt play in korea). Clearly all those players cant be compare with the first ones.
Couldn't agree more. Guys, take this into account: Inno's peak was in a much more memorable and competitive era, in the Kespa time when we had teams in Korea and all the best players there. When Inno was at peak, best player in the world was Korean without a doubt. Maru? I can see quite a lot people would say Serral was the best player in 2018. Maru's 4 consecutive GSLs was a great feat but i dare to say GSL is not that hard nowadays.
I agree with the conclusion, the premises are senseless. Serral being the best player in the world while not being korean implies the era is less memorable and competitive?
Winning Code S is as hard as ever but getting to ro32 is a joke if compared to the past so we can say it's easier to win so many times straight(also, before 2012 there was no group nomination and switch privilege iirc).
Maru's peak was probably higher than Innovation's, that's true, but Inno "wasted" his true peak by losing to Soulkey. It's also true that Inno won almost exclusively when Terran was strong but he was capable of winning every kind of competition in every year of his career(no Premier tournaments in 2018 but HSC isn't that bad).
Maru might become the GOAT, at the moment Inno is superior to him in terms of achievements.
In a weird way Maru prospers in periods other Terrans don’t which should give him an edge in this discussion, but on the other hand he does avoid his (relatively) weaker matchup.
As an aside I was pondering who would be the most rounded player across all 3 matchups they can play in SC2 history? At the same time?
Late 2014-2015 Life before swarm host rework. 2012-13 Taeja.
2016 ByuN, by far the best terran in every matchup and probably the best player overall in every matchup too.
No one could touch his bullshit.
The only guy to master the flying tank, i wonder if other players Terrans would eventually catch up if it wasn't removed, everyone talks about his Reapers because of Blizzcon but i think the flying tank was the core to his sucess.
I still can’t believe that was actually a thing in the game haha
Here's another tiny bit of Starcraft history: INnovation 67% in map and 72,5% in series is the third highest winrate ever. Serral 68,5-74% (altought with a 50/50 vs kr) is the second highest ever.
ByuN has a fucking 71-76% winrate he's 2 and a half point in front of everyone else, if it wasn't for David Kim leaving he would be a 4 time world champ or something.
ByuN was great, his 2016 run was spectacular. That was a good LotV era, more so than 2017-2018 except for Maru's epic run. People talk about flying tanks but the different raven eras in TvT are bullshit as well. Disabling tanks lessens the defender advantage by a lot and TvT has become kinda bad as a matchup lately.
As for reapers, I don't see why people shit on ByuN and not on Maru, it's the same as the 2 rax stuff. Seemingly easy but in reality hard to pull off properly.
On August 02 2019 09:38 IshinShishi wrote: Byun went to the army while still holding a 7k MMR KR account, it really feels somewhat wrong for him to be outside of top 8 considering how amazingly high his peak was.
Maru Inno Mvp MMA TaeJa Polt TY
I can't think of anyone else I'd put over ByuN
MKP maybe. Gumiho maybe. But yeah, those are the ones that are definitely ahead if we only look at Terran. Adding in Zerg and Protoss and Byun drops out of the top 8 quite definitively.
On August 02 2019 09:38 IshinShishi wrote: Byun went to the army while still holding a 7k MMR KR account, it really feels somewhat wrong for him to be outside of top 8 considering how amazingly high his peak was.
Maru Inno Mvp MMA TaeJa Polt TY
I can't think of anyone else I'd put over ByuN
MKP maybe. Gumiho maybe. But yeah, those are the ones that are definitely ahead if we only look at Terran. Adding in Zerg and Protoss and Byun drops out of the top 8 quite definitively.
Arguable, Taeja / Polt / MMA / TY are not really ahead of him, GSL + BlizzCon is really solid considering the number of terrans that managed to win BlizzCon. I'd say ByuN should be around top 12-16.
On August 02 2019 09:38 IshinShishi wrote: Byun went to the army while still holding a 7k MMR KR account, it really feels somewhat wrong for him to be outside of top 8 considering how amazingly high his peak was.
Maru Inno Mvp MMA TaeJa Polt TY
I can't think of anyone else I'd put over ByuN
MKP maybe. Gumiho maybe. But yeah, those are the ones that are definitely ahead if we only look at Terran. Adding in Zerg and Protoss and Byun drops out of the top 8 quite definitively.
Arguable, Taeja / Polt / MMA / TY are not really ahead of him, GSL + BlizzCon is really solid considering the number of terrans that managed to win BlizzCon. I'd say ByuN should be around top 12-16.
On August 02 2019 09:38 IshinShishi wrote: Byun went to the army while still holding a 7k MMR KR account, it really feels somewhat wrong for him to be outside of top 8 considering how amazingly high his peak was.
Maru Inno Mvp MMA TaeJa Polt TY
I can't think of anyone else I'd put over ByuN
MKP maybe. Gumiho maybe. But yeah, those are the ones that are definitely ahead if we only look at Terran. Adding in Zerg and Protoss and Byun drops out of the top 8 quite definitively.
Arguable, Taeja / Polt / MMA / TY are not really ahead of him, GSL + BlizzCon is really solid considering the number of terrans that managed to win BlizzCon. I'd say ByuN should be around top 12-16.
On August 03 2019 03:35 HolydaKing wrote: Inno is GOAT for me, then comes Mvp and then Maru. Just depends on what one is rating highly, so I can see other opinions being valid.
Yeah, I think these three all have a case for them still, though the discussions throughout this process have kind of tipped me toward thinking Mvp is below Maru and Inno these days. Whoever comes out on top, I actually don't think SC2 has a consensus GOAT, just a few clear contenders with different arguments in favour of each.
Maru's star always shined brighter than Inno's. If you look purely at the raw ammount of results over the years they're pretty even. If you look between the lines i think Maru has a pretty solid claim. He broke into the scene while Kespa teams were all the hype, despite playing on a mediocre team. He managed to stay among the top of Korea during the blink era, while Inno needed 2 mine buffs and a hellbat buff to return to form. Won his second Starleague in early 2015 in a balanced meta, while Inno abused the broken raven mech, if it was any other Terran he would be laughed at just like RoRo and Sniper are nowadays. Maru carried JAGW in 2016 with a record similar to Flash's 2010. Figured out optimal Terran play in 3 different metas in 2018, from Ravens to midgame timings to proxy metas. Then won his 4th GSL stomping Dear, Trap and Classic when everyone said Terran had no chance in TvP. Everyone right now agrees that Maru is at the top of his career while people doubt if Inno can win another tournament.
Even if we assume Inno is ahead right now, Maru will outdo him barring some catastrophe like Life's matchfixing.
EPT
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soO: 43 votes
INnoVation: 81 votes
Stats: 50 votes
Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Is there any chance this VOD still exists? ![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/Z2p8ZnR.png)
INnoVation/Results![[image loading]](https://i.imgur.com/1LDgHlb.png)
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