On July 11 2019 02:02 Wombat_NI wrote: Godwin’s changed his law and it’s now applicable to not just Hitler but Serral’s merits
Serral's Law: As the length of a TL discussion approaches infinity, the probability of said discussion degenerating into an argument about Serral approaches 1.
Xain0n's Corollary: The probability turns to 1 immediately in the presence of Xain0n.
On July 11 2019 02:02 Wombat_NI wrote: Godwin’s changed his law and it’s now applicable to not just Hitler but Serral’s merits
Serral's Law: As the length of a TL discussion approaches infinity, the probability of said discussion degenerating into an argument about Serral approaches 1.
Xain0n's Corollary: The probability turns to 1 immediately in the presence of Xain0n.
I think stats is the best Protoss of LotV and definitely deserves his top 8, but I also think we all know by now that nobody is going to survive a voting encounter with Maru, INnoVation, or Mvp until they knock each other out.
On July 11 2019 02:15 Nakajin wrote: I think Nestea was that much more dominant than soO, the problem was always the final.
In Nestea best year from October 2010 to Blizzcon 2011 he had 3 GSL win, 1 Blizzcon final and 1 GSL semi, so 5 round of 4 from a total of 13 tournaments. SoO 2014 had 3 GSL final, 1 Dreamhack final and 1 GSL global championship round of 4, so 5 round of 4 but from a total of 8 tournaments, 5 less than Nestea with his 3 non final beeing between october and december
Nestea first year was still better, winning stuff is better than losing stuff, but it's pretty close.
But this isn't a "best year" contest: soO has many more years of incredible performances on top of that one year.
He absolutely does, but Nestea was ahead of the curve hugely strategically in his best periods. soO is a great player too but standing atop the shoulders of giants.
For whatever reason the BW scene seems to be able to recognise the greatness of their early stars more than the likes of this competition has tended to thus far.
Like Boxer is still an undisputed hall of famer, whereas here there seems a real trend to favouring post Kespa switch players who did well in that era:
That's because the top player from that era wasn't Nestea, it was Mvp. For BW, who after Boxer do fans consider an all time GOAT from that era? Yellow? Garimto? Reach?
I only followed SC1 / BW loosely before Flash / JD / Bisu / ... Since the only name I know from the mentioned above is Yellow, I'd say it is Yellow :D
On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote: Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero.
The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
What? He beat MKP in the first GSL he won. He lost a lot to MVP, which is why MVP is the greatest player of WoL, and Nestea isn't. Can't remember any memorable series of Nestea vs MMA, but I know he beat MC a few times and Nestea won more than he lost, if I recall (I could ask aligulac, but can't really be bothered).
I recommend people read that, and similar contemporary analyses of Nestea's play before spouting drivel about how he'd get outmicrod by everyone.
They didn't play much, his only win in a regular gsl against mc was in 2010.
2010 was already far different than 2011 where he struggled a lot against top terran, Mkp at the time strategy were very aggro with a lot of rush,Nestea defended it, good for him, it isn't saying much about his multitask who has been outclassed the year he dominated and which I mention, not his micro.
Mvp is the greatest player in wol not because (or at least not only) he won against nestea but because after dominated 2011 he stayed a top player in 2012 and almost won a gsl final against Life in bl/infestor era (+ his victory over squirtle), this gsl run alone beats anything nestea has done in my opinion, almost beating two of the greatest (rain/life) in a unfavorable meta is enormous. And you still downplay mc, 2 gsl, 1 final, consistent results oversea and being the best of his race for all wol era still puts you behind a guy who won 3 gsl the first year of the game before disappearing, weird.
Oh yeah, an article in 2011 talking about a victory in october 2010, not a very large perspective.
My only nitpick is that you use MC's 2 finals as an argument but they were earlier than Nestea's later finals. MC's overseas sucess hinged on whether other good koreans were in. If they were you pretty much knew MC wasn't taking it.
I was quite a antifan of MC and protoss in general so I might have missed some of his finals but I am pretty sure he was a finalist in mid 2012 against Seed. For oversea, you exagerate a bit, I am pretty sure if you go on the tl thread at the time you will see him consider as a favorite for pretty much every tournaments except at the end of 2012 when no protoss and terran other than parting with his soul train could do much.
On July 11 2019 02:02 Wombat_NI wrote: Godwin’s changed his law and it’s now applicable to not just Hitler but Serral’s merits
Serral's Law: As the length of a TL discussion approaches infinity, the probability of said discussion degenerating into an argument about Serral approaches 1.
Xain0n's Corollary: The probability turns to 1 immediately in the presence of Xain0n.
It's pretty high without me as well, considering I was not the one speaking of Serral this time; you'd better add "in the absence of Xain0n, the discussion will mostly consist in escalating korean elitits posts each increasingly diminishing Serral's achievement".
Maru vs Stats and TaeJa vs NesTea are pretty onesided.
On July 11 2019 18:51 Acrofales wrote: For some reason 4 ppl voted stats though. Would be interesting to know why.
Mainly because I know Maru will win anyway. But in all seriousness, while Maru's four GSLs are incredible Stats has been to a premier tournament final every year for the past four years. He has two starleagues and 11 finals appearances. That had to count for something.
On July 11 2019 18:51 Acrofales wrote: For some reason 4 ppl voted stats though. Would be interesting to know why.
Mainly because I know Mary will win anyway. But in all seriousness, while Maru's four GSLs are incredible Stats has been to a premier tournament final every year for the past four years. He has two starleagues and 11 finals appearances. That had to count for something.
That's why he's in the top8 Maru also made OSL and SSL in HotS while beating Innovation in one of the fastest BO7 ever
Well at this point the bracket is pointless anyway since everyone knows it's gonna be an Inno-Maru final, it would be more interesting to see how the other 6 players will be ranked.
On July 11 2019 19:40 yht9657 wrote: Well at this point the bracket is pointless anyway since everyone knows it's gonna be an Inno-Maru final, it would be more interesting to see how the other 6 players will be ranked.
If the way the polls are written follow bracket, then the next matches are Inno v soO Maru v Mvp
It's not even just Maru's four consecutive GSLs that put him ahead. He already had legendary OSL + SSL wins, more GSL ro4s than almost anyone else, was consistently between #1 and #3 terran for over six years (and more consistant than INno or TY during those times). Plus he's arguably the best proleague player of all time.
Even if he'd retired before 2018 he'd still beat Stats.
On July 11 2019 22:25 Fango wrote: It's not even just Maru's four consecutive GSLs that put him ahead. He already had legendary OSL + SSL wins, more GSL ro4s than almost anyone else, was consistently between #1 and #3 terran for over six years (and more consistant than INno or TY during those times). Plus he's arguably the best proleague player of all time.
Even if he'd retired before 2018 he'd still beat Stats.
If Maru retired before 2018 Stats would have been so much ahead it would be laughable to even compare them.
On July 11 2019 22:25 Fango wrote: It's not even just Maru's four consecutive GSLs that put him ahead. He already had legendary OSL + SSL wins, more GSL ro4s than almost anyone else, was consistently between #1 and #3 terran for over six years (and more consistant than INno or TY during those times). Plus he's arguably the best proleague player of all time.
Even if he'd retired before 2018 he'd still beat Stats.
If Maru retired before 2018 Stats would have been so much ahead it would be laughable to even compare them.
If Maru had retired before 2018, good chance Stats picks up at least one more GSL, so who knows.