On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
TaeJa didn't win WCS because, boiling it down, he just wasn't motivated. He's literally glided through most of his matches on pure skill alone. Look at any of his toughest matches and he's faced with arguably the best of the best at that given time. Fun fact, when TaeJa was knocked out of tournaments, that player went on to win the whole thing. TaeJa was the goal everyone strived to beat in tournaments.
IEM, Blizzcon, WCS, GSL. You name it. When that player beat TaeJa they won the tournament.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
Taeja's inability to win WCS America even once is actually a huge negative on his GOAT claim. It's one thing not to be able to win GSL, but WCS America was much less stacked with talent. For a top Korean, the Ro32 and Ro16 was basically steamroll over some EZ NA talent, and basically an 8 player tournament.
Now, no one questions that the guy was an otherworldly talent - but he was reliant on his fundamental skills and talent, which works great in weekender tournaments where you don't prepare for a specific opponent. But in the GSL, and in WCS America, where you prepared for opponents round by round, map by map, that's where Taeja's strengths could be neutralized.
The other issue, which is entirely not Taeja's fault, is that a long portion of his peak was during BL-Infestor. It's an absolute atrocity that players like Sniper and RoRo have a GSL championship and players like Taeja who had to be 2x better didn't
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
Taeja's inability to win WCS America even once is actually a huge negative on his GOAT claim. It's one thing not to be able to win GSL, but WCS America was much less stacked with talent. For a top Korean, the Ro32 and Ro16 was basically steamroll over some EZ NA talent, and basically an 8 player tournament.
Now, no one questions that the guy was an otherworldly talent - but he was reliant on his fundamental skills and talent, which works great in weekender tournaments where you don't prepare for a specific opponent. But in the GSL, and in WCS America, where you prepared for opponents round by round, map by map, that's where Taeja's strengths could be neutralized.
The other issue, which is entirely not Taeja's fault, is that a long portion of his peak was during BL-Infestor. It's an absolute atrocity that players like Sniper and RoRo have a GSL championship and players like Taeja who had to be 2x better didn't
Wait what? I thought his peak was in Heart of The Swarm.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
Taeja's inability to win WCS America even once is actually a huge negative on his GOAT claim. It's one thing not to be able to win GSL, but WCS America was much less stacked with talent. For a top Korean, the Ro32 and Ro16 was basically steamroll over some EZ NA talent, and basically an 8 player tournament.
Now, no one questions that the guy was an otherworldly talent - but he was reliant on his fundamental skills and talent, which works great in weekender tournaments where you don't prepare for a specific opponent. But in the GSL, and in WCS America, where you prepared for opponents round by round, map by map, that's where Taeja's strengths could be neutralized.
The other issue, which is entirely not Taeja's fault, is that a long portion of his peak was during BL-Infestor. It's an absolute atrocity that players like Sniper and RoRo have a GSL championship and players like Taeja who had to be 2x better didn't
Wait what? I thought his peak was in Heart of The Swarm.
Inno and Maru were somewhat on his level in 2013 and 2014,i think he was better than both, for instance he was the only Terran to win tournaments from november 2013 to july 2014(and he won 3).But in 2012 he was winning teamleagues solo playing a shit race against broodlord/infestor.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
Taeja's inability to win WCS America even once is actually a huge negative on his GOAT claim. It's one thing not to be able to win GSL, but WCS America was much less stacked with talent. For a top Korean, the Ro32 and Ro16 was basically steamroll over some EZ NA talent, and basically an 8 player tournament.
Now, no one questions that the guy was an otherworldly talent - but he was reliant on his fundamental skills and talent, which works great in weekender tournaments where you don't prepare for a specific opponent. But in the GSL, and in WCS America, where you prepared for opponents round by round, map by map, that's where Taeja's strengths could be neutralized.
The other issue, which is entirely not Taeja's fault, is that a long portion of his peak was during BL-Infestor. It's an absolute atrocity that players like Sniper and RoRo have a GSL championship and players like Taeja who had to be 2x better didn't
Wait what? I thought his peak was in Heart of The Swarm.
I recall Taeja really burst onto the scene in the summer of 2012, when he went nuts in the IPL Teamleague and carried Liquid (IIRC, that was when the "summer of Taeja began). Unfortunately, May 2012 was also when Blizzard stupidly introduced faster overlords AND +2 range for queens. While Taeja's peak continued into HotS - for nearly a year that he was dominant in WoL, I think he lost a lot of opportunities to shine due to gross Zerg imbalance.
So to answer your question - his peak started in summer 2012 and continued well into HotS until about 2014
On an unrelated note, Taeja's period of dominance really doesn't seem that long in retrospect now. He won his first premier in July 2012, and his final premier in July 2014. He hasn't placed top 4 in any Premier since November 2019, nearly 5 years now. He was really really productive in racking up wins in a relatively short period
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Actually, I rather think it was for racial representation that ppl voted for him or the gsl fetish did his work !
No, I mean Bomber's ability to win or be a threat to anyone until 2015, a period in which the skill level was so much better than the one which Nestea dominated. Actually, he didn't really dominate it, yes, he won a gsl without dropping a map :p but we all know what happened when he was facing mvp : a slaughter. And for a dominant player with a meta not totally settled, he didn't influence that much the zerg race. Polt won a gsl with the same format as Nestea first one + a lot of overseas tournament with less competition but I doubt the level of difficulty of the first gsl was that high either. (+ somes of the koreans he faced were actually so much better than nestea's opponents, we all remembered the Inca disaster, a total clown fiesta, there is no other word, looking at the opponents he faced, it's not that impressive either...)
Moreover, I think even most of TL would agree you're overrating him a bit to much by stating Nestea is the second best player in wol. I mean, you can have this opinion but saying he is objectively above the bosstoss is far fetched. Even if you count only the results: he won 2 GSL and made a final at least and won countless oversea tournament with korean + he was the best of his race or one the absolute best for the whole WOL era while Nestea was not even top 3 zerg at any point of 2012. + He actually had heavely influence on the meta + had an impressive gameplay or at least inspiring (for other protoss) gameplay. The format may have (rightfully I'd say) prevented MC of this top 8 but he deserves it so much more than Nestea. If you talk about multitask and influence, Nestea is not even the best zerg of wol, Leenock, DRG, Life obviously or even Stephano are clearly ahead and I think this criteria while being a bit subjective should matter more if you're talking about who's the greatest. So yes, he won 3 gsl at the dawn of Starcraft 2, but for me, that doesn't make it, he lasted 6 more months than fruitdealer, that's good but not great.
I'm sorry what? Nestea didn't influence the Zerg race much? That's a joke right?
Then, tell me how much he influenced it. I open to learn how he influenced the zerg race more than Stephano/DRG. Because when I ask this question, I always have this answer : By his heavely use of creep spread mechanics ? Nop By his use of infestors who derivated into BL/infest ? Neither Did he created the zergling/bane/muta composition like I read on TL before? No Did he create fast 3 hatch build (generally 14 pool then double expand) which became meta in zvp? No 12min/200pop ? Neither Did he create most of the safe build/play ? Actually maybe but FD was more like a piooner.
Albeit his influence isn't as obvious nowadays as it used to be. However, this was taken from his greatest players of all time article and you might find it useful.
Nestea is the only player who can say he innovated his race the way Mvp did his. (The only zerg players close to his influence are Stephano, whose builds all get nerfed into the ground, and Life.) Everything we know as the basic fundamentals almost all come from him and the way he played and looked at the game. Like all great men of thought, Nestea was a better innovator in a time when his race was weakest. The closest analogy to the weakness of zerg is the Blink Era for terran. Not only did the other races have strong early aggressive options while zerg had to fight with a 3 range queen, but the maps were tiny. Most of the maps from the early days are a quarter or at best half the size of the current map pool. Nestea had to fend off 11/11 rushes in distances shorter than the main base on Alterzim. With 3 range queens.
Nestea was generally a macro zerg that liked to scout what his opponents were doing and react to what builds or unit comps they were going for. He was famous for his muta ling/bling and had incredible muta micro—though he did have the tendency to fall asleep on them. In terms of APM he was always on the lower side, but he made sure to inject his larvae (one of the few early zergs to understand just how important that was). He also popularized droning to the 80-90+ mark and then constantly recycling an infinite amount of lings and banelings to crush his opponents.
In ZvZ he was instrumental in finding every build opener, every permutation of build, how to react to each build, how to transition, the compositions you could use in the early mid and late game. He used roaches, roach bane, roach hydra infestor and muta ling bling. The only matchup he wasn’t as influential in was ZvP (Stephano’s builds and compositions are still very much in use today), but he trademarked the infinite spine forest into mass mutalisk base trades that have given protoss players nightmares since the beginning of time.
Beyond that he also created numerous one off builds including the creep spine crawler rush, proxy hatch against terran (to creep the third and deny it from going down forever), and the lair roach bane overlord creep spore rush (which he used once in a Chinese major tournament and was copied a week later by Leenock who thanked him for the build).
Oh okok, I think we are a bit too far away of the subject. Anyway, I remember this article as well (note : nestea is actually behind Polt), while I agree on most of the list and criteria, I always find this particular part very vague and overhype. I was really surprised.
Stuchiu talks about fundamentals but apart from a few builds (not sure if he is the inventor of proxy hatch btw) and the 80-90 drones stuff, there is no invention of durable composition or a new approach of the game. At best,he rafined along other players a lot of build especially in zvz, it's great but he didn't change the way zerg was played or perceived as stephano, drg, those two basically invented the 14 pool 3bases play with a flood of low tech unit which solved a most of early toss agression (a big problem at the time) and was still easy to transition ,Seal/Scarlett and the others who heavely emphazised on creep spread or Life with his agressive approach which even challenged the hellion play did. These changes are more concrete and still have a lot of influence today, Fruitdealer actually with his succession of very commit cheese and greedy play has been copied a lot too.
Nestea is not the first reactionnary zerg, Idra and Fd had already this approach during the beta and I am not sure about the larva mechanics either, every zergs were aware of its importance at the time, way more than creep spead (because spreading creep in this era was really painful to apply, the advantage was not as evident and rewarding), maybe he emphazed more on it but he didn't strike as the mechanically monster who had perfect inject at the time, quite the contrary, he was praised for his game sense and perfect reaction in contrary to Idra. (Which doesn't mean he created it, like Squitle is credited for the 2base immortal push in wol but Parting is the king of the soul train)
I think people here made a solid case for Taeja, I would never put him past 10th, but if you consider the circumstances of his achievemennts, he deserves the recognition.
Also, I would argue that consistency is more important than peak performance. Of coures both play a role in the goat discussion but consitency should be a bit more important imo
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Neither player is even remotely close to GOAT. Both are barely top 20 players (Taeja maybe closer to top 15). But Taeja has TL bias and Serral has foreigner bias and the most deluded fanboys.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Neither player is even remotely close to GOAT. Both are barely top 20 players (Taeja maybe closer to top 15). But Taeja has TL bias and Serral has foreigner bias and the most deluded fanboys.
Please try to post constructively. Your opinion is fine to have but you can't call others deluded for their views that they are entitled to.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
InnoVation and Maru are clearly top 2 in the GOAT race (by far) given their peak skills, premier tournament wins (over top Korean), longetivity (they rose in the highest skill era, not MVP's WOL nor this current period of LOTV), though o would vote Inno as GOAT because of Maru has been having team advantage for so long. Honestly, argueing anyone else as GOAT beside these two guys is absolutely insane and irrationale.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote: Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral? If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way? If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias! Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting) Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true. Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
TaeJa was in school too in 2010, unless I'm crazy. Plus playing semi-pro for 4-5 years is still a lot of practice, or rather it's a normal amount of time to get to the top. He was still one of the player with the most games on the ladder for a long time playing part time, and a good number of players did very well while in school, Leenock was still in school when he won his first MLG, Nerchio was in school until 2015 and it didn't stop him winning event. There's been plenty of college student on top of the ladder (Polt, Stephano, Snute back in school...)
It's not the norm of course but starting full time in your early 20 after a few years part time and peaking around your second-third year is the standard path.
TaeJa did the foreign circuit like Serral did and crush it just as hard, just look at those HSC or Dreamhack where it was just foreigner and non gsl Koreans. The circuit was harder and he seemed just as dominant but he won more event overall and more even with top Koreans.
Of course the Blizzcon is missing but I still think TaeJa is well ahead of Serral.
Not sure if the circuit was harder, actually; career wise, I think too TaeJa is ahead of Serral(ironically, a BlizzCon would have relevantly strenghtened his GOAT claim).
After 2017, Serral played just as many offline series he had played since his "start" in 2012; not considering the immensely increased quality of results against much stronger opponents, he just was twice as active.
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb) I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano. Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
EPT
Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
