On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
Serral and WCS aren't really that important in this discussion anyway, the main point is the disproportionate importance given to Code S in comparison to international successes; this leads to Maru being GOAT and soO top 8, something that numbers for sure cannot justify(and, for good consistency, TaeJa not being a top10 player...insane).
Oh i thought i was the only one who thought Taeja is peak Terran gameplay. His winrate against other players on this list does support that, he showed he's a better TvTer than Inno too. But if we take results into account i think Inno's are just better and i have to vote for him, even if i think Taeja at his peak was a (much) better player than Inno ever was.
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Actually, I rather think it was for racial representation that ppl voted for him or the gsl fetish did his work !
No, I mean Bomber's ability to win or be a threat to anyone until 2015, a period in which the skill level was so much better than the one which Nestea dominated. Actually, he didn't really dominate it, yes, he won a gsl without dropping a map :p but we all know what happened when he was facing mvp : a slaughter. And for a dominant player with a meta not totally settled, he didn't influence that much the zerg race.
Polt won a gsl with the same format as Nestea first one + a lot of overseas tournament with less competition but I doubt the level of difficulty of the first gsl was that high either. (+ somes of the koreans he faced were actually so much better than nestea's opponents, we all remembered the Inca disaster, a total clown fiesta, there is no other word, looking at the opponents he faced, it's not that impressive either...)
Moreover, I think even most of TL would agree you're overrating him a bit to much by stating Nestea is the second best player in wol. I mean, you can have this opinion but saying he is objectively above the bosstoss is far fetched. Even if you count only the results: he won 2 GSL and made a final at least and won countless oversea tournament with korean + he was the best of his race or one the absolute best for the whole WOL era while Nestea was not even top 3 zerg at any point of 2012. + He actually had heavely influence on the meta + had an impressive gameplay or at least inspiring (for other protoss) gameplay. The format may have (rightfully I'd say) prevented MC of this top 8 but he deserves it so much more than Nestea.
If you talk about multitask and influence, Nestea is not even the best zerg of wol, Leenock, DRG, Life obviously or even Stephano are clearly ahead and I think this criteria while being a bit subjective should matter more if you're talking about who's the greatest.
So yes, he won 3 gsl at the dawn of Starcraft 2, but for me, that doesn't make it, he lasted 6 more months than fruitdealer, that's good but not great.
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Actually, I rather think it was for racial representation that ppl voted for him or the gsl fetish did his work !
No, I mean Bomber's ability to win or be a threat to anyone until 2015, a period in which the skill level was so much better than the one which Nestea dominated. Actually, he didn't really dominate it, yes, he won a gsl without dropping a map :p but we all know what happened when he was facing mvp : a slaughter. And for a dominant player with a meta not totally settled, he didn't influence that much the zerg race. Polt won a gsl with the same format as Nestea first one + a lot of overseas tournament with less competition but I doubt the level of difficulty of the first gsl was that high either. (+ somes of the koreans he faced were actually so much better than nestea's opponents, we all remembered the Inca disaster, a total clown fiesta, there is no other word, looking at the opponents he faced, it's not that impressive either...)
Moreover, I think even most of TL would agree you're overrating him a bit to much by stating Nestea is the second best player in wol. I mean, you can have this opinion but saying he is objectively above the bosstoss is far fetched. Even if you count only the results: he won 2 GSL and made a final at least and won countless oversea tournament with korean + he was the best of his race or one the absolute best for the whole WOL era while Nestea was not even top 3 zerg at any point of 2012. + He actually had heavely influence on the meta + had an impressive gameplay or at least inspiring (for other protoss) gameplay. The format may have (rightfully I'd say) prevented MC of this top 8 but he deserves it so much more than Nestea. If you talk about multitask and influence, Nestea is not even the best zerg of wol, Leenock, DRG, Life obviously or even Stephano are clearly ahead and I think this criteria while being a bit subjective should matter more if you're talking about who's the greatest. So yes, he won 3 gsl at the dawn of Starcraft 2, but for me, that doesn't make it, he lasted 6 more months than fruitdealer, that's good but not great.
I'm sorry what? Nestea didn't influence the Zerg race much? That's a joke right?
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Actually, I rather think it was for racial representation that ppl voted for him or the gsl fetish did his work !
No, I mean Bomber's ability to win or be a threat to anyone until 2015, a period in which the skill level was so much better than the one which Nestea dominated. Actually, he didn't really dominate it, yes, he won a gsl without dropping a map :p but we all know what happened when he was facing mvp : a slaughter. And for a dominant player with a meta not totally settled, he didn't influence that much the zerg race. Polt won a gsl with the same format as Nestea first one + a lot of overseas tournament with less competition but I doubt the level of difficulty of the first gsl was that high either. (+ somes of the koreans he faced were actually so much better than nestea's opponents, we all remembered the Inca disaster, a total clown fiesta, there is no other word, looking at the opponents he faced, it's not that impressive either...)
Moreover, I think even most of TL would agree you're overrating him a bit to much by stating Nestea is the second best player in wol. I mean, you can have this opinion but saying he is objectively above the bosstoss is far fetched. Even if you count only the results: he won 2 GSL and made a final at least and won countless oversea tournament with korean + he was the best of his race or one the absolute best for the whole WOL era while Nestea was not even top 3 zerg at any point of 2012. + He actually had heavely influence on the meta + had an impressive gameplay or at least inspiring (for other protoss) gameplay. The format may have (rightfully I'd say) prevented MC of this top 8 but he deserves it so much more than Nestea. If you talk about multitask and influence, Nestea is not even the best zerg of wol, Leenock, DRG, Life obviously or even Stephano are clearly ahead and I think this criteria while being a bit subjective should matter more if you're talking about who's the greatest. So yes, he won 3 gsl at the dawn of Starcraft 2, but for me, that doesn't make it, he lasted 6 more months than fruitdealer, that's good but not great.
I'm sorry what? Nestea didn't influence the Zerg race much? That's a joke right?
Then, tell me how much he influenced it. I open to learn how he influenced the zerg race more than Stephano/DRG. Because when I ask this question, I always have this answer : By his heavely use of creep spread mechanics ? Nop By his use of infestors who derivated into BL/infest ? Neither Did he created the zergling/bane/muta composition like I read on TL before? No Did he create fast 3 hatch build (generally 14 pool then double expand) which became meta in zvp? No 12min/200pop ? Neither Did he create most of the safe build/play ? Actually maybe but FD was more like a piooner.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
Serral and WCS aren't really that important in this discussion anyway, the main point is the disproportionate importance given to Code S in comparison to international successes; this leads to Maru being GOAT and soO top 8, something that numbers for sure cannot justify(and, for good consistency, TaeJa not being a top10 player...insane).
Well being top 10 may also equal the GOAT, right? Depends on the criteria that you set. Keep in mind that even if he won 4 Blizzcon that is 4 years away, what if Inno wins 10 GSL during that period?
But that is pointless discussion. On the second note I kinda agree with you. Obviously Code S rightfully has the biggest value and I dont feel its not proportional (aside from Blizzcon), but Maru is far from the clear GOAT. He is at least on par with Inno. Personally, while I think that peak Maru > peak Inno, I rate Innovation higher just because of his consistency and longevity. And its no secret that I am a huge Maru fan. Even the fact that Inno almost every time crushes Maru like a bug when they play does not help Maru in this comparison.
On July 05 2019 14:03 Kitai wrote: Head says INnoVation since he remains relevant while god-TaeJa retired years ago.
Heart says TaeJa was the most talented Terran to ever touch a keyboard. The sheer amount of raw skill witnessed made him and Life the two most jaw-dropping and fun players to watch in all of SC2. Yes, I'm a biased fanboy.
Voted TaeJa.
A prayer, for those who remember: "Our lord Taeja, who art in Korea, hallowed be thy macro. Thy Orbital come, thy +3 be done, on ladder as it is in IEM. Give us this day our daily cheese, and forgive us our BM as we forgive those who BM against us. Lead us not into all-ins, but deliver us from Protoss. For thine is the 3rd CC, and the MULES, and the Stim, for ever and ever. Amen."
Pretty much the same, the impression of skill I had when I watched him was only matched by Life, no other starcraft 2 player gave me this much as these two.
Btw, seeing Nestea counted as "greatest" while he dominated an area filled with clown fiesta games (most players didn't know what to do) and not that great plays feels a bit cringy, he didn't even bring a lot of results in 2012 and was not the best zerg in the end of 2011. + he is credited for having settled the meta with his ling/bane muta (and so shaped the zerg race) which is wrong, it was already commonly used before his influencial win in gsl. In term of meta influence, drg and stephano are largely above him. This ranking makes him the most overrated player by far.
Well the top 8 was heavily influenced by bracket luck, Nestea got top 8 by defeating Symbol, Bomber and Polt, all players that he is reasonably greater than.
I think most agree that he doesn't really belong in top 10 but its the way the bracket played out. I'm trying to say he isn't really overrated just blessed by luck, which could also be a skill in itself =P
I agree for the last part haha But it's still crazy, at least for me that he triumphs over Bomber and Polt's longevity, I would rank him one tier below those two who remained competitive for 4/5 years at the hightest level while he became progressively irrelevant after 1 year.
Bomber's longevity? You mean, Bomber's looooooong periods of letting everybody down, interspersed with rare flames of utter brilliance? I'd take Nestea's consistency for a shorter timespan over that any day. Think what gave him the win over Polt was that his victories were vs harder Korean opponents, rather than most of them coming from beating relatively weak opposition overseas. Don't get me wrong, I really like Polt, but Nestea's WoL reign was more impressive than anything Polt has done.
E: moreover, if one of those two made it through, we'd be having the exact same discussion about what they ever did to make it into the top 8 greatest of all time Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
Actually, I rather think it was for racial representation that ppl voted for him or the gsl fetish did his work !
No, I mean Bomber's ability to win or be a threat to anyone until 2015, a period in which the skill level was so much better than the one which Nestea dominated. Actually, he didn't really dominate it, yes, he won a gsl without dropping a map :p but we all know what happened when he was facing mvp : a slaughter. And for a dominant player with a meta not totally settled, he didn't influence that much the zerg race. Polt won a gsl with the same format as Nestea first one + a lot of overseas tournament with less competition but I doubt the level of difficulty of the first gsl was that high either. (+ somes of the koreans he faced were actually so much better than nestea's opponents, we all remembered the Inca disaster, a total clown fiesta, there is no other word, looking at the opponents he faced, it's not that impressive either...)
Moreover, I think even most of TL would agree you're overrating him a bit to much by stating Nestea is the second best player in wol. I mean, you can have this opinion but saying he is objectively above the bosstoss is far fetched. Even if you count only the results: he won 2 GSL and made a final at least and won countless oversea tournament with korean + he was the best of his race or one the absolute best for the whole WOL era while Nestea was not even top 3 zerg at any point of 2012. + He actually had heavely influence on the meta + had an impressive gameplay or at least inspiring (for other protoss) gameplay. The format may have (rightfully I'd say) prevented MC of this top 8 but he deserves it so much more than Nestea. If you talk about multitask and influence, Nestea is not even the best zerg of wol, Leenock, DRG, Life obviously or even Stephano are clearly ahead and I think this criteria while being a bit subjective should matter more if you're talking about who's the greatest. So yes, he won 3 gsl at the dawn of Starcraft 2, but for me, that doesn't make it, he lasted 6 more months than fruitdealer, that's good but not great.
I'm sorry what? Nestea didn't influence the Zerg race much? That's a joke right?
Then, tell me how much he influenced it. I open to learn how he influenced the zerg race more than Stephano/DRG. Because when I ask this question, I always have this answer : By his heavely use of creep spread mechanics ? Nop By his use of infestors who derivated into BL/infest ? Neither Did he created the zergling/bane/muta composition like I read on TL before? No Did he create fast 3 hatch build (generally 14 pool then double expand) which became meta in zvp? No 12min/200pop ? Neither Did he create most of the safe build/play ? Actually maybe but FD was more like a piooner.
Albeit his influence isn't as obvious nowadays as it used to be. However, this was taken from his greatest players of all time article and you might find it useful.
Nestea is the only player who can say he innovated his race the way Mvp did his. (The only zerg players close to his influence are Stephano, whose builds all get nerfed into the ground, and Life.) Everything we know as the basic fundamentals almost all come from him and the way he played and looked at the game. Like all great men of thought, Nestea was a better innovator in a time when his race was weakest. The closest analogy to the weakness of zerg is the Blink Era for terran. Not only did the other races have strong early aggressive options while zerg had to fight with a 3 range queen, but the maps were tiny. Most of the maps from the early days are a quarter or at best half the size of the current map pool. Nestea had to fend off 11/11 rushes in distances shorter than the main base on Alterzim. With 3 range queens.
Nestea was generally a macro zerg that liked to scout what his opponents were doing and react to what builds or unit comps they were going for. He was famous for his muta ling/bling and had incredible muta micro—though he did have the tendency to fall asleep on them. In terms of APM he was always on the lower side, but he made sure to inject his larvae (one of the few early zergs to understand just how important that was). He also popularized droning to the 80-90+ mark and then constantly recycling an infinite amount of lings and banelings to crush his opponents.
In ZvZ he was instrumental in finding every build opener, every permutation of build, how to react to each build, how to transition, the compositions you could use in the early mid and late game. He used roaches, roach bane, roach hydra infestor and muta ling bling. The only matchup he wasn’t as influential in was ZvP (Stephano’s builds and compositions are still very much in use today), but he trademarked the infinite spine forest into mass mutalisk base trades that have given protoss players nightmares since the beginning of time.
Beyond that he also created numerous one off builds including the creep spine crawler rush, proxy hatch against terran (to creep the third and deny it from going down forever), and the lair roach bane overlord creep spore rush (which he used once in a Chinese major tournament and was copied a week later by Leenock who thanked him for the build).
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
Serral and WCS aren't really that important in this discussion anyway, the main point is the disproportionate importance given to Code S in comparison to international successes; this leads to Maru being GOAT and soO top 8, something that numbers for sure cannot justify(and, for good consistency, TaeJa not being a top10 player...insane).
It's understandable that you have such a notion, you joined very late, when sc2 had already deteriorated, after it had gone from an absolute main stream game to a small indie game, but during all these years winning a single GSL was way harder than winning 5 foreign only tournaments back to back, the competition was that tough.
It's understandable that you have such a notion, you joined very late, when sc2 had already deteriorated, after it had gone from an absolute main stream game to a small indie game, but during all these years winning a single GSL was way harder than winning 5 foreign only tournaments back to back, the competition was that tough.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
Serral and WCS aren't really that important in this discussion anyway, the main point is the disproportionate importance given to Code S in comparison to international successes; this leads to Maru being GOAT and soO top 8, something that numbers for sure cannot justify(and, for good consistency, TaeJa not being a top10 player...insane).
It's understandable that you have such a notion, you joined very late, when sc2 had already deteriorated, after it had gone from an absolute main stream game to a small indie game, but during all these years winning a single GSL was way harder than winning 5 foreign only tournaments back to back, the competition was that tough.
In reality, I played Sc2 in beta and WoL and, despite having already quit the game, I followed the pro scene until 2013. After that, I occasionally watched the most important tournaments(mainly BlizzCon) until my interest in the game was renewed with LoTV; in 2018, I came back and eventually decided to make a TL account in the wake of Serral's victory. What I missed, I studied it or rewatched it once I started watching sc2 again.
There was indeed a time in which what you say was close to the truth, and it was during HoTS; it wasn't the case in WoL, and it definitely isn't the case in LoTV; In 2015, especially, Code S was incredibly stacked in comparison to WCS that had few korean lefts(most likely not true GSL contenders; sorry, Polt and Hydra).
I don't agree on the fact sc2 has deteriorated, foreign scene is healthy and arguably stronger than ever, if only for the presence of a player of the caliber of Serral(but the gap was at its minimum in 2018, probably); Korean sc2 scene is on a clock and has lost depth to the point Code A is a joke in comparison to what it used to be in the past(most notably in WoL as well when players of the caliber of Mvp were sent to the lower league on a regular basis), but its champs didn't magically become weaker and ro16/ro8 usually present a lineup worth of any era.
The distance between GSL and WCS is obviously still there, but while the first hasn't gone up, the level of the second has improved(yes, even when compared to the times when tier two koreans or champs past their primes were dominating it) and it is just not meaningless anymore when we speak of achievements.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
sOs has 2 Blizzcon titles and 1 IEM Katowice title which is equivalent to Blizzcon and his other achievements are easily worth a 4th Blizzcon title and he isn't considered the GOAT. But I guess he doesn't have the foreigner bonus.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
Yes, that is your opinion. There are also people who think Serral is overrated career wise, because guys like you rate WCS too high, and Code S too low. Unfortunately for you, your opinion is hard to justify because Code S is the best league in the world while WCS has 1 player theoretically capable of winning GSL, and 4 more who are good enough to qualify and get some decent results there. Just deal with it, WCS is irrelevant in a GOAT discussion and if Serral would ever want to be considered top 10 player of all time he would need to either win 2-3 more Blizzcons or compete in Code S.
Lol someone with 4 BlizzCon titles being a top 10 player only? That's laughable, he would be the GOAT.
sOs has 2 Blizzcon titles and 1 IEM Katowice title which is equivalent to Blizzcon and his other achievements are easily worth a 4th Blizzcon title and he isn't considered the GOAT. But I guess he doesn't have the foreigner bonus.
MSI Arena and Hot6ix Cup comparable to BlizzCon? Not really. Not to mention that old IEM format wasn't the one we consider of the same tier of BlizzCon, I didn't see you saying MC won World Championship since he triumphed in Hanover in 2012.
And probably I wasn't clear enough, "someone" stood for "Serral" here, it's not like winning four BlizzCon authomatically makes you the GOAT, you need other titles.
On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote: Innovation -> Taeja soO -> Nestea Maru -> Stats Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru Innovation MVP soO Stats Taeja Nestea Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time.
agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to.
Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair.
Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes).
The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown.
soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay?
I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place.
I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO.
I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind.
EPT
Nestea, at least, is a 3-time GSL winner and second-greatest player of WoL (and the greatest of WoL has a legit case for GOAT).
