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On July 06 2019 04:26 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2019 04:25 Anc13nt wrote:On July 06 2019 04:01 435 wrote:
Serral is the greatest of all time. All knows this. Ban me, the fuck I care, I have limitless VPN. Fuckers what makes you think that? Lol. Stop feeding the trolls.
lol i had the feeling but it was too tempting not to respond
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On July 06 2019 04:20 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2019 20:50 Xain0n wrote:On July 05 2019 18:11 Anc13nt wrote:On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote:
Innovation -> Taeja
soO -> Nestea
Maru -> Stats
Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO
Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru
Innovation
MVP
soO
Stats
Taeja
Nestea
Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time. agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to. Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair. Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes). The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown. soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay? I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place. I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO. I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind.
Serral being 9th or 35th depends of how much do you rate WCS, it's impossible to reach a consensus on that.
70% of the voters on the main page poll think Serral was the best Zerg in LoTV, way ahead of Dark and Rogue against whom, in this thread, barely managed to advance; here, there are those who think even soO achieved more than Serral in LoTV(lol).
Inno is significantly ahead of Maru in terms of achievements(both won 3 Code S, a SSL and a WESG, it's pretty easy to compare what's left).
Only the fact Code S has this divine aura to your eyes can turn the table in favour of Maru but the 4peat is way easier now than it could have been in HoTS.
Actually, he is not even top 3 to my eyes in a GOAT list(he would be in this one, tho, since someone is missing).
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Canada8988 Posts
On July 06 2019 05:13 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2019 04:20 Anc13nt wrote:On July 05 2019 20:50 Xain0n wrote:On July 05 2019 18:11 Anc13nt wrote:On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote:
Innovation -> Taeja
soO -> Nestea
Maru -> Stats
Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO
Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru
Innovation
MVP
soO
Stats
Taeja
Nestea
Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time. agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to. Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair. Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes). The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown. soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay? I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place. I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO. I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind. Serral being 9th or 35th depends of how much do you rate WCS, it's impossible to reach a consensus on that. 70% of the voters on the main page poll thinks Serral was the best Zerg in LoTV, way ahead of Dark and Rogue against whom, in this thread, barely managed to advance; here, there are those who think even soO achieved more than Serral in LoTV(lol). Inno is significantly ahead of Maru in terms of achievements(both won 3 Code S, a SSL and a WESG, it's pretty easy to compare what's left). Only the fact Code S has this divine aura to your eyes can turn the table in favour of Maru but the 4peat is way easier now than it could have been in HoTS. Actually, he is not even top 3 to my eyes in a GOAT list(he would be in this one, tho, since someone is missing).
Personally I would still say that Maru has consistency on his side (strangely cause INno is one of the most consistent player ever) on average he has done a bit better in code S with less time in code A, at least since 2013, and overall I feel like he has less "off showing" than INno.
Of course it help that Maru plays in way less tournament and played a lot less match up where he was favor, ence loss less of them (And of course won fewers but is his own damn fault and hurt his case, at least as much as TaeJa not playing in GSL)
With all that sais INno has a 6% over him in match win rate, which ia crazy, so maybe not.
Still think INno is greater right now, but we should have a few more days to think about it.
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INno is also #1 at Aligulac Hall of Fame for having a long period of dominance. He's my GOAT quite easily, Maru comes after him though. And then probably Mvp. Terrans did quite well in Korea. >.<
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On July 06 2019 05:13 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2019 04:20 Anc13nt wrote:On July 05 2019 20:50 Xain0n wrote:On July 05 2019 18:11 Anc13nt wrote:On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote:
Innovation -> Taeja
soO -> Nestea
Maru -> Stats
Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO
Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru
Innovation
MVP
soO
Stats
Taeja
Nestea
Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time. agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to. Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair. Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes). The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown. soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay? I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place. I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO. I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind. Serral being 9th or 35th depends of how much do you rate WCS, it's impossible to reach a consensus on that. 70% of the voters on the main page poll thinks Serral was the best Zerg in LoTV, way ahead of Dark and Rogue against whom, in this thread, barely managed to advance; here, there are those who think even soO achieved more than Serral in LoTV(lol). Inno is significantly ahead of Maru in terms of achievements(both won 3 Code S, a SSL and a WESG, it's pretty easy to compare what's left). Only the fact Code S has this divine aura to your eyes can turn the table in favour of Maru but the 4peat is way easier now than it could have been in HoTS. Actually, he is not even top 3 to my eyes in a GOAT list(he would be in this one, tho, since someone is missing).
i think Serral was the greatest LotV zerg before Dark won GSL. Now I think it's Dark (I can go over that if necessary). Still I would say Serral is probably 5th greatest LotV player. Also, I think Serral is more popular among foreigners so he does a lot better in polling. That was why he narrowly lost to Classic and got a decent amount of votes compared to Rain. He is not far from them but I bet if he was Korean, the polling would be more lopsided against him (not that that is possible to show anyway). That's also why 35% of people thought Scarlett was greater player than herO and why ByuL was somehow seen as less great than Scarlett or HuK.
Inno is one of my favourite players but if you compare him to Maru, they both share 3 GSL, SSL, GSL semi and a WESG so if we remove those from equation, Inno has 2 iEM, GSL vs World, WCS Season 1 while Maru has another GSL and OSL. I didn't add up semis and finals because they both have a lot of those but if I did, I'm pretty sure it would help Maru since he has a lot more semifinals than Inno (including 4 GSL semis). I think Inno wins out slightly against Maru in terms of achievements but the difference is not significant at all.
Edit: Also I definitely think it's insane to put Serral at 35th place. Even if you removed his WCS Circuit wins that's silly. However, I've always felt that winning a WCS Circuit is like close to as impressive as a GSL semifinal (maybe closer to GSL ro8 if you are Serral unfortunately since you cannot play against yourself).
The fact is that the foreigners have caught up but if you look at the top foreigner vs Korean tournaments, top Koreans are still heavily favoured in map score against top foreigners not named Serral so there is still a real gap. Without Serral in GSL vs the World, the top Korean vs top Foreigner (excluding Chinese players) score is 18-5 (13-5 without team match) in 2018 and 25-13 (19-12 without team match) in 2017 (I included Serral for 2017). 28-9 in Blizzcon 2018, 26-14 in Blizzcon 2017, 26-16 in Blizzcon 2016, 11-17 in KesPa cup 2016.
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Innovation probably is the GOAT, but similar to his playstyle and persona, he's a very unflashy GOAT. It really feels like he's quietly accumulated a GOAT-worthy resume, but I don't recall as many dramatic moments for him as some other players.
Mvp: Ridiculous Game 7 11/11 rax comeback against Squirtle
Maru: Ridiculous 4 GSL win streak
For Innovation, his most dominant period (2013) was somewhat underwhelming, as he got reverse swept by SoulKey in the GSL finals
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Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral?
If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way?
If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias!
Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting)
Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
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On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote:
Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral?
If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way?
If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias!
Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting)
Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
The people who are most dismissive of Serral's achievements are also to some extent similarly dismissive of TaeJa's achievements, so I don't think this is a good argument.
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On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote:
Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral?
If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way?
If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias!
Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting)
Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
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On July 06 2019 07:42 Bagration wrote:
Innovation probably is the GOAT, but similar to his playstyle and persona, he's a very unflashy GOAT. It really feels like he's quietly accumulated a GOAT-worthy resume, but I don't recall as many dramatic moments for him as some other players.
Mvp: Ridiculous Game 7 11/11 rax comeback against Squirtle
Maru: Ridiculous 4 GSL win streak
For Innovation, his most dominant period (2013) was somewhat underwhelming, as he got reverse swept by SoulKey in the GSL finals
saw that game again and now i feel bad for Squirtle lol. If he just stayed on to top of his ramp...
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On July 06 2019 07:28 Anc13nt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2019 05:13 Xain0n wrote:On July 06 2019 04:20 Anc13nt wrote:On July 05 2019 20:50 Xain0n wrote:On July 05 2019 18:11 Anc13nt wrote:On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote:
Innovation -> Taeja
soO -> Nestea
Maru -> Stats
Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO
Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru
Innovation
MVP
soO
Stats
Taeja
Nestea
Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time. agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to. Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair. Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes). The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown. soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay? I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place. I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO. I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind. Serral being 9th or 35th depends of how much do you rate WCS, it's impossible to reach a consensus on that. 70% of the voters on the main page poll thinks Serral was the best Zerg in LoTV, way ahead of Dark and Rogue against whom, in this thread, barely managed to advance; here, there are those who think even soO achieved more than Serral in LoTV(lol). Inno is significantly ahead of Maru in terms of achievements(both won 3 Code S, a SSL and a WESG, it's pretty easy to compare what's left). Only the fact Code S has this divine aura to your eyes can turn the table in favour of Maru but the 4peat is way easier now than it could have been in HoTS. Actually, he is not even top 3 to my eyes in a GOAT list(he would be in this one, tho, since someone is missing). i think Serral was the greatest LotV zerg before Dark won GSL. Now I think it's Dark (I can go over that if necessary). Still I would say Serral is probably 5th greatest LotV player. Also, I think Serral is more popular among foreigners so he does a lot better in polling. That was why he narrowly lost to Classic and got a decent amount of votes compared to Rain. He is not far from them but I bet if he was Korean, the polling would be more lopsided against him (not that that is possible to show anyway). That's also why 35% of people thought Scarlett was greater player than herO and why ByuL was somehow seen as less great than Scarlett or HuK. Inno is one of my favourite players but if you compare him to Maru, they both share 3 GSL, SSL, GSL semi and a WESG so if we remove those from equation, Inno has 2 iEM, GSL vs World, WCS Season 1 while Maru has another GSL and OSL. I didn't add up semis and finals because they both have a lot of those but if I did, I'm pretty sure it would help Maru since he has a lot more semifinals than Inno (including 4 GSL semis). I think Inno wins out slightly against Maru in terms of achievements but the difference is not significant at all. Edit: Also I definitely think it's insane to put Serral at 35th place. Even if you removed his WCS Circuit wins that's silly. However, I've always felt that winning a WCS Circuit is like close to as impressive as a GSL semifinal (maybe closer to GSL ro8 if you are Serral unfortunately since you cannot play against yourself). The fact is that the foreigners have caught up but if you look at the top foreigner vs Korean tournaments, top Koreans are still heavily favoured in map score against top foreigners not named Serral so there is still a real gap. Without Serral in GSL vs the World, the top Korean vs top Foreigner (excluding Chinese players) score is 18-5 (13-5 without team match) in 2018 and 25-13 (19-12 without team match) in 2017 (I included Serral for 2017). 28-9 in Blizzcon 2018, 26-14 in Blizzcon 2017, 26-16 in Blizzcon 2016, 11-17 in KesPa cup 2016.
There is no doubt the gap still exists, I never said the opposite. Serral being favored over Dark(and Huk over Byul), unlike Scarlett vs herO, does not show foreigner bias but simply weighting many titles(or some relevant one) against few(or none at all); 35th place was ficticious yet plausible, you just have to ask the right people.
Inno has six Premier semifinals, Maru has nine, not enough to compensate. If you take a look at Major victories Inno is very much ahead, Maru's record is slightly better in Proleague but Inno had better results in any other teamleague.
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On July 06 2019 09:17 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2019 07:28 Anc13nt wrote:On July 06 2019 05:13 Xain0n wrote:On July 06 2019 04:20 Anc13nt wrote:On July 05 2019 20:50 Xain0n wrote:On July 05 2019 18:11 Anc13nt wrote:On July 05 2019 17:22 Shuffleblade wrote:
Innovation -> Taeja
soO -> Nestea
Maru -> Stats
Zest <- MVP
Innovation -> soO
Maru -> MVP
Maru -> Innovation
Maru
Innovation
MVP
soO
Stats
Taeja
Nestea
Zest
This would be my personal opinion in regards to this contest, we'll see how it plays out. Top three should be a lock at least in my opinion. Missing Life, Classic, MC and Serral is getting closer and closer to deserve to be ranked among the greatest of all time. agreed. Regarding Maru and Inno, if you compare their achievements, they are very close but like in BW most people think Flash is greatest and not Nada. I think Inno's longevity is incredible and has value but Maru has good longevity and a GSL run that no one can/will ever come even close to. Also, tbh I can see Serral being top 5 in 2 more years since Stats, Zest, soO, sOs and many others will go to military soon (so he can catch up) but right now 18th place looks fair. Maru and soO are overrated career wise(their skill and level of play are on the other hand undeniable), and that's because you guys rank Code S so incredibly high(and, conversely, non korean tournaments so low that Serral being #18 is one acceptable ranking to your eyes). The fact Code A is now very weak compared to the past surely made Maru's Code S streak easier, but he is without any doubt the greatest GSL player ever existed and by far the most accomplished in korean leagues considering he won OSL and SSL too. Firm on his throne in his homeland, Maru had results roughly comparable to Marineking's abroad(less titles, more prestigious); do you really think the GOAT should be someone who displayed so little in international tournaments(and never won one outside of Asia)? Inno won more, more consistently and proved his skills in every tournament and environment; if I had to choose between the two, I'd have no doubts who to crown. soO is a magnificent Kong, a very relevant player who has been the best of his race multiple times. Yes, he reached six Code S finals, but how do you justify ranking him that high against players who actually won much more? The fact that he embodies the will of never surrendering and that his tenacity was repaid in the end with a very prestigious title this year surely adds to his objective achievements, but then how can you discard so quickly and abruptly Mvp's story of winning titles against odds and physical decay? I think 18th place is fair because all of ro8 have more achievements and so does most of the eliminated ro16. Probably there is a decent case that Serral is greater than Solar and maybe Parting but that would only put him at 16th place. And now that Dark has won a GSL he should be in ro16 so that makes 18th place feel more proper to me. Also, Rogue and Serral are very neck to neck so Rogue very well could've been 18th place. I remember ranking soO at 6th place in the past but in retrospect, I would've probably put Stats above him for 6th place but I don't see why anyone (besides sOs) eliminated in the ro16 is greater than soO. I think it's true that Maru is a lot worse than Inno in international tournaments. I use the Flash and Nada analogy but I'm aware there is a difference because Inno's is still one of the top players even to this day. I think in terms of achievements, it's a tossup (maybe barely favoured for Inno) but ultimately I think 4 GSL in a row is bonjwa-esque and tips the scale in his favour. If Inno won even like a GSL vs the World or Super Tournament, I would put Inno above Maru. That is how close they are in my mind. Serral being 9th or 35th depends of how much do you rate WCS, it's impossible to reach a consensus on that. 70% of the voters on the main page poll thinks Serral was the best Zerg in LoTV, way ahead of Dark and Rogue against whom, in this thread, barely managed to advance; here, there are those who think even soO achieved more than Serral in LoTV(lol). Inno is significantly ahead of Maru in terms of achievements(both won 3 Code S, a SSL and a WESG, it's pretty easy to compare what's left). Only the fact Code S has this divine aura to your eyes can turn the table in favour of Maru but the 4peat is way easier now than it could have been in HoTS. Actually, he is not even top 3 to my eyes in a GOAT list(he would be in this one, tho, since someone is missing). i think Serral was the greatest LotV zerg before Dark won GSL. Now I think it's Dark (I can go over that if necessary). Still I would say Serral is probably 5th greatest LotV player. Also, I think Serral is more popular among foreigners so he does a lot better in polling. That was why he narrowly lost to Classic and got a decent amount of votes compared to Rain. He is not far from them but I bet if he was Korean, the polling would be more lopsided against him (not that that is possible to show anyway). That's also why 35% of people thought Scarlett was greater player than herO and why ByuL was somehow seen as less great than Scarlett or HuK. Inno is one of my favourite players but if you compare him to Maru, they both share 3 GSL, SSL, GSL semi and a WESG so if we remove those from equation, Inno has 2 iEM, GSL vs World, WCS Season 1 while Maru has another GSL and OSL. I didn't add up semis and finals because they both have a lot of those but if I did, I'm pretty sure it would help Maru since he has a lot more semifinals than Inno (including 4 GSL semis). I think Inno wins out slightly against Maru in terms of achievements but the difference is not significant at all. Edit: Also I definitely think it's insane to put Serral at 35th place. Even if you removed his WCS Circuit wins that's silly. However, I've always felt that winning a WCS Circuit is like close to as impressive as a GSL semifinal (maybe closer to GSL ro8 if you are Serral unfortunately since you cannot play against yourself). The fact is that the foreigners have caught up but if you look at the top foreigner vs Korean tournaments, top Koreans are still heavily favoured in map score against top foreigners not named Serral so there is still a real gap. Without Serral in GSL vs the World, the top Korean vs top Foreigner (excluding Chinese players) score is 18-5 (13-5 without team match) in 2018 and 25-13 (19-12 without team match) in 2017 (I included Serral for 2017). 28-9 in Blizzcon 2018, 26-14 in Blizzcon 2017, 26-16 in Blizzcon 2016, 11-17 in KesPa cup 2016. There is no doubt the gap still exists, I never said the opposite. Serral being favored over Dark(and Huk over Byul), unlike Scarlett vs herO, does not show foreigner bias but simply weighting many titles(or some relevant one) against few(or none at all); 35th place was ficticious yet plausible, you just have to ask the right people. Inno has six Premier semifinals, Maru has nine, not enough to compensate. If you take a look at Major victories Inno is very much ahead, Maru's record is slightly better in Proleague but Inno had better results in any other teamleague.
i only mentioned gap to support my opinion that while WCS Circuit is impressive win, it is not really on the same level as an IEM or Super tournament. Some people consider it not far off from GSL in difficulty while some think that it is worth nothing so I would position myself somewhere in between (probably closer to your side tbh than the other).
I didn't watch SC2 WoL era so I probably was underselling HuK but I think you also agree that Scarlett vs herO shows clear foreigner bias imo.
Lastly, I still maintain that although GSL and OSL is worth less than 2 IEM, GSL vs the World and WCS Season 1, it is not enough to convincingly show that Inno has significant lead on Maru in achievements. It'd be cool if Inno won this contest but if I'm going to be honest to myself, I think Maru beats him for GOAT by a hair.
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I was a little sad to have to pull the lever for INnoVation over Taeja in Ro8 when he would have a great case vs Zest, Nestea, or Stats. As you can see from some of these posts, Taeja is still very popular despite a little time elapsing from his dominant era, and his outside of Korea accomplishments gave him a wider audience.
On the other hand, there has been plenty of bad bracket luck, but to avoid it you'd have to do all sorts of pre-seeding and re-seeding, or like group round-robins, and that turns this unscientific fun poll into something it is not. It clearly is stirring some intense passions already in the comments.
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On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote:
Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral?
If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way?
If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias!
Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting)
Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon.
Part of it was witnessing the sheer spectacle of domination. You joined this forum in 2016, so not I'm sure if you were an avid SC2 watcher during TaeJa's heyday. Serral does have fantastic accomplishments in a short amount of time, but many of his wins were a hair's breadth away from not happening (lots of match point deciders). TaeJa was (and still is) the only player after Nestea to win a premeir tournament without dropping a map. He also hard-carried Team Liquid through team leagues. He racked up a ridiculous 23-3 map score in IPL TAC 3, and not only against foreigners. He frequently team-killed the best Korea had to offer including a team kill of the strongest team (Incredible Miracle) in the grand finals. With TaeJa, it wasn't *just* the number of tournaments he won, it was about how hard he pooped on his opponents while doing so. It's hard to describe if you're just looking at results in liquipedia.
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Canada8988 Posts
On July 06 2019 08:16 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote:
Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral?
If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way?
If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias!
Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting)
Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon. Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively
I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too.
But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does)
Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20.
TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
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TaeJa at his peak had a way harder field to navigate than today. And he still came out on top for the majority of head to heads. That he didn't stay in Korea and play (despite being pretty damn good at the time anyway), really shouldn't detract from what he accomplished. If TaeJa's only blemish is that he didn't play in Korea, but still won vs the best Korea had to offer when they did meet, then I don't see how you can argue against him vs Serral or a lot of players. That map he and Innovation played on New Kirk alone is GOAT status. Not to mention his comeback vs Zest or Life.
Edit: When you finally return to Korea and literally every player wants to play you, that says a lot.
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On July 06 2019 10:37 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote:
Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral?
If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way?
If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias!
Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting)
Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon. Part of it was witnessing the sheer spectacle of domination. You joined this forum in 2016, so not I'm sure if you were an avid SC2 watcher during TaeJa's heyday. Serral does have fantastic accomplishments in a short amount of time, but many of his wins were a hair's breadth away from not happening (lots of match point deciders). TaeJa was (and still is) the only player after Nestea to win a premeir tournament without dropping a map. He also hard-carried Team Liquid through team leagues. He racked up a ridiculous 23-3 map score in IPL TAC 3, and not only against foreigners. He frequently team-killed the best Korea had to offer including a team kill of the strongest team (Incredible Miracle) in the grand finals. With TaeJa, it wasn't *just* the number of tournaments he won, it was about how hard he pooped on his opponents while doing so. It's hard to describe if you're just looking at results in liquipedia.
Fair I guess you do have a good point.
also My first account was in 2013 but I switched to this account, I have been a fan since 2011
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On July 06 2019 10:59 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2019 08:16 Bagration wrote:On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote:
Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral?
If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way?
If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias!
Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting)
Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon. Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too. But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does) Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20. TaeJa had a shorter carreer at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Serral rose his way to the top incredibly fast, occasionally playing LAN tournaments and having a team does not mean fully committing, the complete switch is what made the difference(a huge one).
TaeJa technically had a shorter career but he was committed since the beginning(or shortly after), just look at the amount of games played per year; in the roughly 24 months TaeJa's victories are enclosed (since July 2012 to July 2014) foreigners won 4 Premiers out of 78(not sure of this precise number, actually), it would have been unfortunate to lose a tournaments to them.
TaeJa was amazing but his inability of winning korean tournaments or S tier international ones prevents him from truly being the GOAT(kind of the opposite of Maru in this regard). And I still can't understand how could he fail so hard in WCS America, he only reached the semifinals once in five seasons during the year he peaked(2012-2013, his best streak of 8 Premier titles out of 17 played).
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On July 06 2019 10:59 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2019 08:16 Bagration wrote:On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote:
Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral?
If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way?
If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias!
Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting)
Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon. Volume and a bit of TL bias in favor of Taeja - he didn't peak as anywhere as high as Serral, but he did it for a long time. Serral already has a Korean premier (GSL vs. the World) and Blizzcon over Taeja - if he can sustain this performance for just a little bit longer (maybe even less than a year), he should eclipse Taeja definitively I don't think DH Bucharest or Winter were noticiably easier than a global lan event, of course the pristege isn't the same and it has to factor in too. But TaeJa win were overall harder with the inclusion of Korean and he dominated foreigner as hard or even harder than Serral never losing a tournament to them. He also had multiple compleatly untoutchable run (altought Serral also does) Plus he dosen't have a longer progammer carreer, he has a equivalent carreer if not shorter, TaeJa semi-retired at the end of 2014 just as he hit 21 years old and he started playing at the start of the game in 2010, winning his first tournament 2 years after at age 19. In comparaison Serral played his first tournament in 2012 and won his first tournament 6 years after, at age 20. TaeJa had a shorter career at least during his full go, and made his way to the top way faster.
Not true.
Serral may have started in 2012, but he was still a student when he started, so he was a semi-pro at best, explaining his lack of results. Serral only became a full-time SC2 pro player after he graduated from school in 2016/2017, and in ONE YEAR, he managed to rise to the top of the scene.
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On July 06 2019 11:23 AzAlexZ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2019 10:37 Kitai wrote:On July 06 2019 07:57 AzAlexZ wrote:
Excuse me but if Taeja who, has a) never won a Blizzcon, or b) never won an individual premier tournament in Korea can be argued for as GOAT then why can't Serral?
If Taeja is praised for his prowess in weekender tourney results, why can't Serral be praised in the same way?
If all of Taeja's results come from beating people in foreigner-land and sometimes Koreans why can't we say the same for Serral?
You can use the argument that Taeja has peak Terran mechanics.... but Serral (still) has peak Zerg mechanics
This is such extreme Bias!
Serral has arguably better results in a shorter time period of pro-play then Taeja (Tell me one Taeja year that is comparable to 2018 Serral, I'm waiting)
Serral was still a student in the HOTS expansion, so unlike Taeja, Serral wasn't fully committed to SC2 until he graduated in late 2016 or 2017. So in a shorter pro career Serral has done what Taeja hasn't done yet, win a tournament in Korea, and a Blizzcon. Part of it was witnessing the sheer spectacle of domination. You joined this forum in 2016, so not I'm sure if you were an avid SC2 watcher during TaeJa's heyday. Serral does have fantastic accomplishments in a short amount of time, but many of his wins were a hair's breadth away from not happening (lots of match point deciders). TaeJa was (and still is) the only player after Nestea to win a premeir tournament without dropping a map. He also hard-carried Team Liquid through team leagues. He racked up a ridiculous 23-3 map score in IPL TAC 3, and not only against foreigners. He frequently team-killed the best Korea had to offer including a team kill of the strongest team (Incredible Miracle) in the grand finals. With TaeJa, it wasn't *just* the number of tournaments he won, it was about how hard he pooped on his opponents while doing so. It's hard to describe if you're just looking at results in liquipedia. Fair point I guess you do have a good point. also My first account was in 2013 but I switched to this account, I have been a fan since 2011
Ah, got it. My apologies for the presumption. 
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EPT
