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On July 08 2019 21:41 Acrofales wrote:
If in past times you had to list the top 50 players, you'd probably include 2, maybe 3 foreigners. Right now, there's a case to be made for 15 or more. Moreover, however much you want to exclude Serral as an abnormality, he *is* a top 3 player right now, and he is a product of the foreign scene. That is *also* unheard of. So between those two "stats", I think is is incontrovertible that the foreign scene is catching up.
Pretty much this, very good way of putting it. The best 20 players in the world are still koreans(+Serral and possibly +Neeb +SpeCial).
But the depth of korea has disappeared and there is probably at least 20 foreigners in top 50 sc2 players atm.
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On July 08 2019 21:41 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 08 2019 21:21 MarianoSC2 wrote:On July 08 2019 20:56 Xain0n wrote:On July 08 2019 20:41 MarianoSC2 wrote:On July 08 2019 05:02 Xain0n wrote:On July 08 2019 03:15 MarianoSC2 wrote:On July 07 2019 23:43 Xain0n wrote:On July 07 2019 23:22 Nakajin wrote:On July 07 2019 23:00 Xain0n wrote:On July 07 2019 22:36 Nakajin wrote:
[quote]
Of course the circuit was harder it was every foreigner + some Koreans against only foreigners.
I'm not to keen on the whole "foreigner got better" hype train to be honest. (Outside of Serral obviously, and maybe Neeb)
I think it's both under estimating the success of 2012-2015 foreigner and over estimating the success of non-Serral foreigner now.
I really don't see how Reynor, Elazer or Special are getting any better results than Snute, Scarlett, Jim, Naniwa or Stephano.
Foreigners success now are inflated because of the amount of chances they get, for exemple Blizzcon and GSLvsTW are 8-8 so it's not that surprising to get a foreigner in the semi or quarters. Same for GSL, Naniwa was already qualifying for it when the bracket were full give Snute or Jim half a dozen try and they could have very well made a couple of round of 16.
We should leave 2012 out, it was quite a successful year for the foreigners and it was still WoL. It's not a hype train, results clearly show foreigners have been way better in LoTV than they were in HoTS; what success are you speaking of, really? Koreans of mid tier class or past their primes were dominating WCS EU where the vast majority of players were non koreans; if you placed eight foreigners at BlizzCon in 2013-2015 not a single one would have gone past ro16, it wasn't a question of opportunities, they just could not beat koreans(two Premier victories in three years of HoTS) to a point that Naniwa and Lilbow qualifying for the event was seen as a huge success, let alone winning series... When LoTV came, the same foreigners in the Circuit started beating the koreans left, more often than not; Elazer and Special went that far by beating top koreans in their groupstages, not washed up ones. Scarlett won IEM by beating sOs, and foreigners enjoyed a decent success in Code S too; that would have been unthinkable during HoTS, Snute's ZvP only was korean level and he didn't win anything notable out of it. A more appropriate question would be if foreigners were more successful in WoL or in LoTV(excluding Serral, of course); also, weak foreigners and mid tier koreans still seems worse than more competitive foreigners(including Code S ro16 and above material like Neeb, Special, Reynor, Scarlett) plus Serral, to me. Scarlett eliminated the OSL champ at WCS season 2 in 2013, reach a WCS semi by 3-0 aLive, beat Bomber who was the reigning WCS season 2 champ at RedBull and 3-0 Life at Northcon + almost beating both the 2013 Blizzcon finalist. Naniwa eliminated INno at WCS season 2 2013 and reach the final of an IEM over Hyun a code S player at the time. Jim beat Life and TaeJa in Shenzen, Snute beat Rain and Classic at Shenzen 2015 ect.... The point is that a good number of foreigner were able to beat the best of the GSL once in a while and it does not seemed to have change. 2016 was a bit better for foreigner but first year of expansion always are and then it is pretty much the same. If we take a look at the HSC, IEM Katowice or GSLvsTW bracket it is still pretty much only korean winning with a foreigner sometime winning one or two matches something they always were able to do. And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments, they arguably were Code S material; the first year of HOTS was terrible for foreigners. IEM World Championship has traditionally been a bad tournament for foreigners(unlike BlizzCon, where foreigners have been beating top koreans in bo3 on regular basis in LoTV whereas, and I doubt it could happen, the best foreigners in HoTS would have needed a lucky path with few koreans and favourable matchups to play in order to reach one single ro4); GSL vs The World has been played twice and koreans effectively dominated it(if not for Serral, obviously); HSC, on the other hand, has been decent for foreigners in 2018(Lambo reached the WB final in the first one, Rogue and soO were eliminated in the groupstages with Reynor beating the eventual finals Inno etc) while the 2019 edition greatly missed the trio of top NA players(not to mention Reynor beat the koreans he faced and was eliminated by Snute and Heromarine). Scarlett winning IEM and Neeb reaching the ro4 in Code S can't be ignored; Eu ZvZ is a thing as much as it is a meme(Namshar casually beating soO yesterday is just the latest of many cases). Koreans are still favored against non koreans, but I fail to see how you could think a significant improvement has not happened; in HoTS, players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner, would you say it's like this now? "players of the caliber of nowadays TRUE, aLive and Trust would have been expected to beat any foreigner" These players were much better back then, so its unfair to compare them to the current foreigner player batch. If Impact, Cure and Hurricane started WCS now, they would be expected to beat every foreigner except Serral, and maybe Neeb. So its exactly the same as it was back then. The only difference is, Korea lost depth, WCS gained depth a tiny bit and got Serral. Neeb, Scarlett and Special are still not consistent enough to claim they could compete with Koreans regularly, but on a good day, they can. Same as Snute, Naniwa and Stephano could. "And they were never capable of reaching a single final while mid/low tier koreans won tournaments" MMA, MC, Polt, Innovation, Hydra, Hyun, Mvp, Taeja. Some of these mid tier koreans would still beat the crap out of most foreigners today, and except Inno they are either retired, or long past their prime  I dont understand how a sane person could really think that WCS is stronger now than it was when Koreans were allowed. I dont like using HSC as an argument, but look at the latest HSC results. Koreans dominated yet again, in spite of the fact that they were represented by only 1 player (arguably 2) from the current top 10 in Korea. Occasional victories like Bunny losing a couple of matches, or Zest losing 1 PvP, they also happened before. Again, if you discount Serral, there is no real improvement. In the knockouts, your "mid-tier" Koreans totally butchered every foreigner not named Serral except 1 ZvZ. If that is not an astronomical gap, I dont know what is The only argument that can be taken seriously is ZvZ. Thanks to regularly practicing with and against Serral, foreigners are on another level. But a big part is also that koreans play a dumb meta, they just dont have many good Zergs anymore and didnt adjust well enough to the post Serral ZvZ era. Its like they still think that building a bunch of roaches or 15 pool would work, as they did before... Hurricane the Code S semifinalist? Yes, he might very well beat foreigners(not granted). Hurricane in 2018 would not have, for sure. Impact is good but he was Special's safe pick last Code S(ehm), and he would get a ton of ZvZ so not really. Cure at the moment is hard to beat for anyone in Korea, average Cure is not expected to win WCS. Neeb, Special and Scarlett on a good day can beat multiple top tier koreans and win relevant tournaments(well, Special just doesn't regardless of competition), not just compete like Snute, Naniwa and Stephano did in HoTS(WoL was very different). Hydra and maybe Hyun are the only ones who could be called mid tier koreans in your list(but I really wouldn't), at worst some of them were past their primes in HoTS; I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa... Stats, soO and TY are mid tier koreans too? I'll remember that. "I am instead speaking of Duckdeok, Pigbaby, Revival, Sacsri, YoDa..." = Why even mention these insignificant low tier players instead of mentioning the ones in my list? Because it fits more into your dreamy views? Why am I even trying, you are a lost cause... :/ Because those insignificant low tier players, just as you call them, won tournaments during HoTS while the best foreigners couldn't(Sen and Lilbow succeeded in the end, but still). You haven't really been following my reasoning, have you? The ones in your list won tournaments in WoL or LoTV too(with the notable exception of Hyun, who however was one map away from a Code S title) and, I insist, cannot even be called mid tier. Okay I think I get it now. But no-one is arguing the improvement of foreigners and decline of the depth and lower level koreans. This does not really help reinforce your argument that WCS has more quality now than in had before the region lock. Because it wasnt flukes like Duckdeock who consistently crushed the foreign scene but it was players like Polt, MMA, Hydra, MC, Inno. But these dont fit your criteria do they? Also, while the foreigners did improve, so did the top koreans. Exclude Serral and the results are not really any better than they were before. Korea still crushes it, and occasional moments of brilliance (like Neeb and Scarlett winning tournaments) that happened before as well (Stephano, Naniwa, Marinelord at NW, Snute). If in past times you had to list the top 50 players, you'd probably include 2, maybe 3 foreigners. Right now, there's a case to be made for 15 or more. Moreover, however much you want to exclude Serral as an abnormality, he *is* a top 3 player right now, and he is a product of the foreign scene. That is *also* unheard of. So between those two "stats", I think is is incontrovertible that the foreign scene is catching up.
Maybe that's because there are only like 35 korean pros left? really impressive that 15 of the best 50 players are foreigners then. Chapeau!
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How did soO vs Nestea become another thread on Serral and Koreans vs Foreigners?
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In response to the talk about how strong foreigners are, I checked Aligulac for the offline Korean winrate of many top foreigners. Based on that, I think Serral is on another level compared to the other foreigners. To my knowledge, Reynor is only other foreigner with above 50% offline winrate against Koreans in LotV (he's around 50 percent overall but 57% from HSC XVIII 2018 to now). Neeb's is like 47% overall but in fairness, he usually had to fight top Koreans. Special was 43% but he clearly improved a lot and is now like 54% this year over a pretty big sample (and like 60.5% winrate when I checked "form" on Aligulac). Most of the other top foreigners had winrates in 30s to 40s against the Koreans offline. Serral is like 60 percent (64 percent after beginning of 2018) which is pretty incredible (most top Koreans don't have winrates in 60s against other Koreans).
From what I've gathered, it looks like Serral is head and shoulders above the rest, and then Special and Reynor are probably top 20 level, as they do fine against top Koreans and are pretty favoured against mid-tier Koreans.
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On July 09 2019 03:18 Morbidius wrote:
How did soO vs Nestea become another thread on Serral and Koreans vs Foreigners?
I call it Serral's law lol.
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Nestea is the epitome of what "greatest of all time" discussions are all about. The thing with Nestea is that he didn't just win. He didn't even just dominate. He played a perfect tournament. ZERO maps lost. How the hell does that achievement measure up against long-term consistency and other criteria? It's so personal how these things are weighted. You can't just look at the trophy numbers and think you have a complete picture of what makes "greatness". Nestea punches above his weight in trophies because when he was dominant, there's a case to be made that his wins were so far ahead of the competition that the skill gap between him and his rivals was, for brief moment, at least, possibly the biggest gap we've ever seen. Who even comes close in this category? Maru? Serral? Dear? Byun? I can't think of who else would even be in the conversation, and any of those might be a stretch. Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
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On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote:
Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it.
One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out.
TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players.
Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
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On July 09 2019 03:18 Morbidius wrote:
How did soO vs Nestea become another thread on Serral and Koreans vs Foreigners?
Serral saving e-sports all over the place :D
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On July 09 2019 15:24 Kitai wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote:
Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it. One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out. TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players. Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned.
it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
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On July 09 2019 17:41 RatzBarcode wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 15:24 Kitai wrote:On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote:
Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it. One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out. TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players. Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned. it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents.
He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity.
The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero.
The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
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On July 09 2019 18:12 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 17:41 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 09 2019 15:24 Kitai wrote:On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote:
Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it. One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out. TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players. Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned. it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents. He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero. The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
What? He beat MKP in the first GSL he won. He lost a lot to MVP, which is why MVP is the greatest player of WoL, and Nestea isn't. Can't remember any memorable series of Nestea vs MMA, but I know he beat MC a few times and Nestea won more than he lost, if I recall (I could ask aligulac, but can't really be bothered).
As I was searching for some games, I stumbled upon this highly entertaining blog: https://tl.net/blogs/227012-before-they-were-champions-nestea-vs-mc
I recommend people read that, and similar contemporary analyses of Nestea's play before spouting drivel about how he'd get outmicrod by everyone.
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On July 09 2019 19:31 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 18:12 stilt wrote:On July 09 2019 17:41 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 09 2019 15:24 Kitai wrote:On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote:
Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it. One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out. TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players. Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned. it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents. He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero. The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask. What? He beat MKP in the first GSL he won. He lost a lot to MVP, which is why MVP is the greatest player of WoL, and Nestea isn't. Can't remember any memorable series of Nestea vs MMA, but I know he beat MC a few times and Nestea won more than he lost, if I recall (I could ask aligulac, but can't really be bothered). As I was searching for some games, I stumbled upon this highly entertaining blog: https://tl.net/blogs/227012-before-they-were-champions-nestea-vs-mcI recommend people read that, and similar contemporary analyses of Nestea's play before spouting drivel about how he'd get outmicrod by everyone.
I am not sure NesTea should be a top8 player in a GOAT contest, but neither is soO to my eyes.
People are so fond of HoTS post KeSpa Code S and downplay so hard early WoL Code S, even if the latter was a very competitive tournament if we look at how often champions were demoted to code A; many of the top players didn't last long but were nevertheless strong at the time, you need context to judge tournaments(Maru and Byun were already there and they did not win against supposedly weak players, how is that?).
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Maru turned 14 in 2011.
I agree that early tournaments should not be rated lowly because the game wasn't figured out, but soO wins anyways imo.
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Canada8988 Posts
On July 09 2019 18:12 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 17:41 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 09 2019 15:24 Kitai wrote:On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote:
Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it. One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out. TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players. Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned. it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents. He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero. The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask.
Inca wasn't the perfect run final tho, that was Losira, also Nestea did just fine vs MC, MMA, MKP or Mvp, at least in 2010-11.
The biggest downfall of Nestea is his longevity, even if we only take WOL he failled to pass the 60% win rate mark and after Blizzcon 2011 he had a couple of good run (IPL+Iron Squid) but nothing to crazy. He has a carreer a bit like ByuN or Rogue, good player with one year that's head and shoulder above the rest.
soO had a better overall win rate and stayed relevant for a much longer time.
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Wasnt Life the greatest player of all???
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On July 09 2019 23:54 TheAnarchy wrote:
Wasnt Life the greatest player of all???
Nope. IMO Maru, Inno, Serral, Stats are better
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On July 09 2019 23:54 TheAnarchy wrote:
Wasnt Life the greatest player of all???
Probably not but he's pretty close. Nakajin didn't include Life in this contest because of the matchfixing accident.
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On July 10 2019 00:09 Xain0n wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 23:54 TheAnarchy wrote:
Wasnt Life the greatest player of all??? Probably not but he's pretty close. Nakajin didn't include Life in this contest because of the matchfixing accident.
Accident? Don't think it was accidental. It was, however, an incident 
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Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 09 2019 21:51 Nakajin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2019 18:12 stilt wrote:On July 09 2019 17:41 RatzBarcode wrote:On July 09 2019 15:24 Kitai wrote:On July 09 2019 12:26 neutralrobot wrote:
Because if you've lost a map on your way to winning a tournament against a field of all the world's best, you ain't done it as good as Nestea done it. One other player did it, and against a tougher field in 2014. NesTea's run included an auto-win from a forfeit and a Bo1 victory against July in the Ro32, and then he beat... Ensnare, CoCa, HongUn to get to the finals. Not exactly a best-in-the-world all-star cast. 4-0ing LosirA in the finals was the only thing that really stood out. TaeJa's perfect DreamHack run in 2014 also included some relative no-names and lower tier Europeans at the time such as Prebs, Morrow, Harstem, and Sjaak. However, he also beat GSL-regular Patience, and Oz who had just placed 2nd in WCS premier. Then he beat an in-form Jaedong, who in 2013-2014 won 2 premier tournaments, placed 2nd in 5 more, and was a semifinalist in 7 more. Finally, he beat his teammate and also multi-championship winner HerO (who had just won an IEM championship earlier that year) in the finals. His overall map score was 17-0 compared to NesTea's 12-0, and against several much more accomplished players. Still, that doesn't mean he deserved to beat INnoVation, just as NesTea doesn't deserve to beat soO. Maybe if this poll were held 5 years ago the tables between TaeJa/INno and NesTea/soO would have been turned. it sounds like you're valuing taeja's opponents as they were at the time, but not applying that standard to Nestea's opponents. He does because most of them demonstrated no longevity. The more the game was fixed, the more they became mediocre, just like Nestea. And it is not a general trend, MC, Mvp, Polt and other players at the time stayed competitive for way longer period of time. We can consider equals any players Nestea defeated in his perfect run with JD or Hero. The run was ridiculously easy and the games were terribles, it's quite hilarous especially nestea vs inca who became a meme. He can be glad he never encountered mvp, or even mkp or mma, he couldn't compete with their multitask. Inca wasn't the perfect run final tho, that was Losira, also Nestea did just fine vs MC, MMA, MKP or Mvp, at least in 2010-11. The biggest downfall of Nestea is his longevity, even if we only take WOL he failled to pass the 60% win rate mark and after Blizzcon 2011 he had a couple of good run (IPL+Iron Squid) but nothing to crazy. He has a carreer a bit like ByuN or Rogue, good player with one year that's head and shoulder above the rest. soO had a better overall win rate and stayed relevant for a much longer time.
While that's a good point I believe that the reason why people keep Nestea so high is following:
What's up?! IM NESTEA!!!!
Nestea! You're a psychopath, Nestea! Nestea had just erazed quadrillion thors with 5 quadrillion banelings.
There may be more moments, but this comes up to many SC2 nerds when talking about memorable moments. That's how you achieve greatness and that's why Nestea is so loved. You speak these two lines and nerds know.
(close to this comes the Mvp Squirtle match or the Maru Dear match)
(also he created the Zerg but that was discussed before)
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On July 10 2019 00:20 deacon.frost wrote:
What's up?! IM NESTEA!!!!
Nestea! You're a psychopath, Nestea! Nestea had just erazed quadrillion thors with 5 quadrillion banelings.
(also he created the Zerg but that was discussed before)
Artosis' reverence and enthusiasm for NesTea was one of my favorite memories from early GSL.
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EPT
