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Acrofales
Spain17959 Posts
On July 10 2019 01:15 Kitai wrote: Artosis' reverence and enthusiasm for NesTea was one of my favorite memories from early GSL.  At least it was somewhat justified. His unending faith in Clide, however... | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On July 09 2019 23:54 TheAnarchy wrote: Wasnt Life the greatest player of all??? He was, but Inno and Maru both surpassed him now. I would say he is quite close with sOs either at 3rd or 4th. | ||
Nakajin
Canada8989 Posts
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stilt
France2747 Posts
On July 09 2019 19:31 Acrofales wrote: What? He beat MKP in the first GSL he won. He lost a lot to MVP, which is why MVP is the greatest player of WoL, and Nestea isn't. Can't remember any memorable series of Nestea vs MMA, but I know he beat MC a few times and Nestea won more than he lost, if I recall (I could ask aligulac, but can't really be bothered). As I was searching for some games, I stumbled upon this highly entertaining blog: https://tl.net/blogs/227012-before-they-were-champions-nestea-vs-mc I recommend people read that, and similar contemporary analyses of Nestea's play before spouting drivel about how he'd get outmicrod by everyone. They didn't play much, his only win in a regular gsl against mc was in 2010. 2010 was already far different than 2011 where he struggled a lot against top terran, Mkp at the time strategy were very aggro with a lot of rush,Nestea defended it, good for him, it isn't saying much about his multitask who has been outclassed the year he dominated and which I mention, not his micro. Mvp is the greatest player in wol not because (or at least not only) he won against nestea but because after dominated 2011 he stayed a top player in 2012 and almost won a gsl final against Life in bl/infestor era (+ his victory over squirtle), this gsl run alone beats anything nestea has done in my opinion, almost beating two of the greatest (rain/life) in a unfavorable meta is enormous. And you still downplay mc, 2 gsl, 1 final, consistent results oversea and being the best of his race for all wol era still puts you behind a guy who won 3 gsl the first year of the game before disappearing, weird. Oh yeah, an article in 2011 talking about a victory in october 2010, not a very large perspective. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 10 2019 01:39 MarianoSC2 wrote: He was, but Inno and Maru both surpassed him now. I would say he is quite close with sOs either at 3rd or 4th. Depends how you look at it, no one of them did anything closely related to Life's play. The closest one is Maru beating Protosses without ghosts just by MMM. The biggest feat of Life I remember is his killing blue flame hellions just by speedlings... | ||
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Morbidius
Brazil3449 Posts
On July 10 2019 02:45 stilt wrote: They didn't play much, his only win in a regular gsl against mc was in 2010. 2010 was already far different than 2011 where he struggled a lot against top terran, Mkp at the time strategy were very aggro with a lot of rush,Nestea defended it, good for him, it isn't saying much about his multitask who has been outclassed the year he dominated and which I mention, not his micro. Mvp is the greatest player in wol not because (or at least not only) he won against nestea but because after dominated 2011 he stayed a top player in 2012 and almost won a gsl final against Life in bl/infestor era (+ his victory over squirtle), this gsl run alone beats anything nestea has done in my opinion, almost beating two of the greatest (rain/life) in a unfavorable meta is enormous. And you still downplay mc, 2 gsl, 1 final, consistent results oversea and being the best of his race for all wol era still puts you behind a guy who won 3 gsl the first year of the game before disappearing, weird. Oh yeah, an article in 2011 talking about a victory in october 2010, not a very large perspective. My only nitpick is that you use MC's 2 finals as an argument but they were earlier than Nestea's later finals. MC's overseas sucess hinged on whether other good koreans were in. If they were you pretty much knew MC wasn't taking it. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
If you hold both perspectives, that's great on you. I think it's crazy, but to each their own. Nestea also played at a time there was one GSL every month and a half, making it much easier to win GSLs. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany15914 Posts
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best. I think you don't know what "unquestionable" means. | ||
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ParksonVN
Australia370 Posts
On July 10 2019 15:35 Pandain wrote: I just think anyone who says that Nestea is one of the top 10 GOAT also has to say that Serral is a top 10 GOAT, becuase Nestea basically had one great year (2011, little bit of end of 2010), where he wasn't even the best player of that year. Meanwhile Serral has (so far) had one great year (2018, little bit of 2019 so far), where he was (nearly) unquestionably the best. If you hold both perspectives, that's great on you. I think it's crazy, but to each their own. Nestea also played at a time there was one GSL every month and a half, making it much easier to win GSLs. Last year's best player was Maru. Serral only won the biggest prize pool. | ||
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Malinor
Germany4721 Posts
On July 10 2019 16:51 ParksonVN wrote: Last year's best player was Maru. Serral only won the biggest prize pool. Serral waited in two finals for Maru to decide this head to head. Unfortunately, Maru couldn't make it to said finals. On a more serious note, with the 2018-performances Maru and Serral had, it is basically impossible to determine who did better. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 10 2019 17:09 Malinor wrote: Serral waited in two finals for Maru to decide this head to head. Unfortunately, Maru couldn't make it to said finals. On a more serious note, with the 2018-performances Maru and Serral had, it is basically impossible to determine who did better. Maru waited in 3 finals for Serral and he never showed up, Maru won against Serral @ WESG and won it a match later. Serral won 2 Tournaments out of 10 possible where elite Koreans were(Maru 4). Serral missed 5 tournaments with Koreans(ST & Code S) - Maru 1(IEM PCh), Serral lost against Maru @ WESG in BO5(the only offline series they played). Serral had better IEM PCh(Maru MIA), same Katowice(both losing in RO4), better GSL vs TW and Blizzcon. I may have forgotten some tournaments with Koreans, I didn't include WCS for the obvious - if he's the best he should be measured against the best who are Koreans. | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
On July 10 2019 16:40 Charoisaur wrote: I think you don't know what "unquestionable" means. A few people on TL doesn't negate "nearly unquestionable". I think there was a poll on this forum that had 80% of people saying Serral had the best year in 2018. You might be right. But your opinion is the few minority, not the majority. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6860 Posts
On July 10 2019 17:25 deacon.frost wrote: Maru waited in 3 finals for Serral and he never showed up Serral won 2 Tournaments out of 10 possible where elite Koreans were(Maru 4). Serral missed 5 tournaments with Koreans(ST & Code S) - Maru 1(IEM PCh), Serral lost against Maru @ WESG in BO5(the only offline series they played). Serral had better IEM PCh(Maru MIA), same Katowice(both losing in RO4), better GSL vs TW and Blizzcon. I may have forgotten some tournaments with Koreans, I didn't include WCS for the obvious - if he's the best he should be measured against the best who are Koreans. Which were? Also Serral won 2 HSC, making it 4 won tournaments against elite Koreans Also WESG 2017 was the last time Maru placed better than Serral. Since then Serral is obviously better  | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
On July 10 2019 18:00 Harris1st wrote: Which were? Also Serral won 2 HSC, making it 4 won tournaments against elite Koreans Also WESG 2017 was the last time Maru placed better than Serral. Since then Serral is obviously better Code S? (If we're talking about the top tournaments) C'mon, see where the chain started and what we're reacting to. Fine, I give 1 HSC as it was in 2018 while the top Koreans part is questionable(the best Korean there was Innovation who hasn't show much in 2018) We were talking about 2018. If you want include 2019 reuslts into discussion about who had the better results in 2018, we can do it with 1 more top win for Maru while 0 top wins for Serral. And yes, he had better WESG while Maru had, again, better Code S. (1:1 if we count in HSC which, again, was missing the top players - Classic, Dark to name the biggest names) Edit> I don't want to downplay HSC much down, but the best player there was Serral as he was the top4 player at the time it was player and the rest of the top4 players of the time when it was played were not there. While this isn't his fault, he won what he should have won. HSC18 - Zest, Innovation - both great players, but they weren't exactly the best players at the end of 2018 while Serral was at the top. HSC19 - TY, Zest - while both are great players, they didn't have the results recently, did they? (the irony of Innovation rising up is great, so maybe TY will follow the pattern and rise again) I value Serral as the top4 player of the world, if the rest of the top3 is missing he should win the tournament. That's why I don't like using WESG that much as there are only 3 Koreans and the qualification happens way too early(OTOH if I would be mean I would use WESG qualifier as a proper result as it's a Korean tournament in the Korean environment where we're looking for the best )Another edit> Especially for Take & Naruto - guys, you're doing a great job, no offense against your tournament and player choices. I know it's hard to get the top there. And when you're not playing a mirror match I usually tune in | ||
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MarianoSC2
Slovakia1855 Posts
On July 10 2019 18:00 Harris1st wrote: Which were? Also Serral won 2 HSC, making it 4 won tournaments against elite Koreans Also WESG 2017 was the last time Maru placed better than Serral. Since then Serral is obviously better Serral won 2 HSC in 2018? Also, its HSC... | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44137 Posts
On July 10 2019 17:26 Pandain wrote: A few people on TL doesn't negate "nearly unquestionable". I think there was a poll on this forum that had 80% of people saying Serral had the best year in 2018. You might be right. But your opinion is the few minority, not the majority. He may have had his best year in 2018, but that doesn't mean he was the best, let alone unquestionably/ nearly-unquestionably the best. The past few comments (and literally an entire year of threads and debating this topic) are full of reasonable counterpoints to your assertion. Plenty of TLers thought that Serral was the best player in 2018, but plenty didn't. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12129 Posts
Evil wins again | ||
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Xain0n
Italy3963 Posts
I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it. Get over it, guys, your GOAT was not even the best in his most dominating year. The polls Serral lost had 50 votes, the ones he overwhelmingly won had thousands. Also, do you really believe top 35 is comprised almost entirely of koreans, Chairo? Being biased is one thing, but that's unreal. Armani and DRG surely are dominating players in 2019, not even mentioning how untouchable Spear is against non koreans... | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6860 Posts
On July 10 2019 18:24 deacon.frost wrote: Also if somebody respects the polls - polls have decided that Serral is not in the top8 Evil wins again In a GOAT discussion, surely there are people above Serral. In a "who was best in 2018" discussion, it is impossible to not mention Serral Back to topic: Looking grim for Nestea. soO = Zerg GOAT! | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44137 Posts
On July 10 2019 18:38 Xain0n wrote: I have to say tho that I can't stop smiling at how flawed the "Maru did better in Code S" is, considering Serral never played it. That's a point against Serral for not participating in a stacked, historically top-tier competition, not against Maru. And it's Code S; it's not exactly an irrelevant tournament. Is that what a lot of these arguments boil down to? Tournament X becomes irrelevant in assessing how good a player is, just because the player I prefer didn't attend, and we should only look at the tournaments my player played at? Also, do you really believe top 35 is comprised almost entirely of koreans, Chairo? Are you referring to when he responded that the remaining 35 of the top 50 would therefore be Koreans if he humored the assertion that 15 of the top 50 would be foreigners? Because that's just a reasonable dichotomy. And that's different than your question here, that the top 35 (not top 50) is comprised almost entirely of Koreans, as he didn't claim that all of the foreigners were necessarily #36-50 in the top 50, while the Koreans held all the top spots. On July 10 2019 18:58 Harris1st wrote: In a "who was best in 2018" discussion, it is impossible to not mention Serral Agreed, although keep in mind that the original assertion wasn't that Serral was merely part of the conversation for #1 player in 2018, but that he was definitely ("nearly unquestionably") the #1 player. That's obviously false. I think focusing on the final few players in this GoaT competition is what's important for this thread though... which means there's really no need to mention Serral. | ||
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