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On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same.
What a brilliant combining of two of the greatest logical fallacies ever: argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad autoritatem
Numbers don't lie
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On September 11 2017 04:43 Beyond Magic wrote:
through ages of sc2, there has never been a topnotch nonkorean terran. Has any nonkorean terran even won any tournaments?
I think uthermal won something last year
EDIT: He did, IEM Shanghai 2016
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On September 11 2017 04:43 Beyond Magic wrote:
through ages of sc2, there has never been a topnotch nonkorean terran. Has any nonkorean terran even won any tournaments?
edit : nvm, thorzain was probably only one who managed for a short while.
Bunny was the last one to win something notable I think
oh uThermal, ofc
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On September 11 2017 04:34 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:30 207aicila wrote:On September 11 2017 04:21 The_Red_Viper wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 DieuCure wrote:On September 11 2017 04:17 Gurbak wrote:On September 11 2017 04:16 pvsnp wrote:On September 11 2017 04:15 Gurbak wrote:On September 11 2017 04:14 DieuCure wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Gurbak wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 DieuCure wrote:
[quote]
He tried ... Code A still better result than cure Not really , Cure played code S this year, and was near of Dark s lvl ( above but ultras and cheese ... ) no he was not in code s even noregret is better than cure Cure was in Code S in Season 1 oops forgot that :p Yes so stop trying to trashtalk the most gifted player in sc2 history just because you don't know anything please. The most gifted sc2 player was Taeja, literally didn't train and still won vs all the best koreans Don't forget the ludicrous number of GSLs and other Korean tournaments he won. I remember the last few seasons where he simply wanted to retire but all the top koreans preparing for GSL still couldn't beat him until ro8/ro16.
When he said that He just saw the JAGW's build during Maru's match so he was able to reproduce it just after 
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On September 11 2017 04:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. then why is only 1 toss in the top 8 WCS standings? because only Neeb and ShoWTime were sufficiently skilled in the foreign scene to be able to seize the opportunity, and ShoWTime had an awful year for reasons. The other highly talented players of the foreign scene are Z (most of them) and T (roughly as many legit T as there are P).
Ah yeah, PvZ is imbalanced in favor of protoss but we don't see it because foreign Zergs are that much more talented than foreign Protoss.
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On September 11 2017 04:43 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. What a brilliant combining of two of the greatest logical fallacies ever: argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad autoritatemNumbers don't lie
cherrypicking's ok though
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On September 11 2017 04:38 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:36 Diabolique wrote:
Why are all the terrans dead even before the tournament? Major dropped out early, Kela made the Ro8. 1 Terran making a playoff run is pretty normal for foreign tourneys. Every foreign event this year has 3 assumptions: 1. Huge overrepresentation of Zerg 2. 1 Terran makes it to playoffs before dying 3. Neeb wins That's 2017 WCS Circuit in broad strokes
I was kind of hoping some great PvT from Neeb against some great Terran, to get inspiration for sOs (whom many consider as being a worse played than Neeb). But Neeb did not need to fight any strong terran.
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On September 11 2017 04:43 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. What a brilliant combining of two of the greatest logical fallacies ever: argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad autoritatemNumbers don't lie
It has a name : sophism
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On September 11 2017 04:43 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. What a brilliant combining of two of the greatest logical fallacies ever: argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad autoritatemNumbers don't lie
Say what?
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On September 11 2017 04:43 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. What a brilliant combining of two of the greatest logical fallacies ever: argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad autoritatemNumbers don't lie
Numbers don't lie guys, thread is closed 
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On September 11 2017 04:45 BaneRiders wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:43 Sakat wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. What a brilliant combining of two of the greatest logical fallacies ever: argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad autoritatemNumbers don't lie Say what?
The numbers themselves never lie, because they can't. Numbers simply exist. The way in which said numbers are presented, and the conclusions drawn from them, on the other hand.....
You can get the numbers to support any arbitrary position you want, if you know enough about statistics.
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On September 11 2017 04:45 GoloSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:43 Sakat wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. What a brilliant combining of two of the greatest logical fallacies ever: argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad autoritatemNumbers don't lie cherrypicking's ok though
I'd like for you to show me when I did cherrypicking
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On September 11 2017 04:44 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2017 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. then why is only 1 toss in the top 8 WCS standings? because only Neeb and ShoWTime were sufficiently skilled in the foreign scene to be able to seize the opportunity, and ShoWTime had an awful year for reasons. The other highly talented players of the foreign scene are Z (most of them) and T (roughly as many legit T as there are P). Ah yeah, PvZ is imbalanced in favor of protoss but we don't see it because foreign Zergs are that much more talented than foreign Protoss.
Well, it's just my opinion. When I watch high level P play, they always look in total control, especially because of oracles. I'm not saying what they do takes no skill ; of course it does, otherwise lesser P would start winning games they shouldn't, and this doesn't happen atm. Nevertheless, I can't help but think PvZ (and PvT too) is slightly P favored atm because of how versatile P can be, how much map control they seize early on, how stronger they get their eco going compared to hots, etc. Then again, that's just my low level player opinion and you can disagree on it completely. But I think you need to watch further than numbers and see how the games play out.
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On September 11 2017 04:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. then why is only 1 toss in the top 8 WCS standings? because only Neeb and ShoWTime were sufficiently skilled in the foreign scene to be able to seize the opportunity, and ShoWTime had an awful year for reasons. The other highly talented players of the foreign scene are Z (most of them) and T (roughly as many legit T as there are P).
Please edit your post as to not insult PtitDrogo, the greatest French Protoss to have ever played at Blizzcon.
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On September 11 2017 04:43 Beyond Magic wrote:
through ages of sc2, there has never been a topnotch nonkorean terran. Has any nonkorean terran even won any tournaments?
edit : nvm, thorzain was probably only one who managed for a short while.
Stop fooling yourself, there are no terrans at the top foreign lvl because you need Koreans training to perform, when it's easier to reach a decent lvl as zerg.
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On September 11 2017 04:47 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2017 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. then why is only 1 toss in the top 8 WCS standings? because only Neeb and ShoWTime were sufficiently skilled in the foreign scene to be able to seize the opportunity, and ShoWTime had an awful year for reasons. The other highly talented players of the foreign scene are Z (most of them) and T (roughly as many legit T as there are P). Please edit your post as to not insult PtitDrogo, the greatest French Protoss to have ever played at Blizzcon.
Drogo's done even worse this year than Showtime.
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uThermal won a tounament last year, i think it´was IEM shanghai
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On September 11 2017 04:47 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2017 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. then why is only 1 toss in the top 8 WCS standings? because only Neeb and ShoWTime were sufficiently skilled in the foreign scene to be able to seize the opportunity, and ShoWTime had an awful year for reasons. The other highly talented players of the foreign scene are Z (most of them) and T (roughly as many legit T as there are P). Please edit your post as to not insult PtitDrogo, the greatest French Protoss to have ever played at Blizzcon.
actually PtitDrogo was an oversight from me, he is genuinely skilled. Wonder why he had such a rough year overall.
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On September 11 2017 04:46 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:45 BaneRiders wrote:On September 11 2017 04:43 Sakat wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. What a brilliant combining of two of the greatest logical fallacies ever: argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad autoritatemNumbers don't lie Say what? The numbers themselves never lie, because they can't. Numbers simply exist. The way in which said numbers are presented, and the conclusions drawn from them, on the other hand..... You can get the numbers to support any arbitrary position you want, if you know enough about statistics.
Sure. Numbers don't lie. People lie. 
I didn't get the point he was trying to make though?
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On September 11 2017 04:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:44 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2017 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. then why is only 1 toss in the top 8 WCS standings? because only Neeb and ShoWTime were sufficiently skilled in the foreign scene to be able to seize the opportunity, and ShoWTime had an awful year for reasons. The other highly talented players of the foreign scene are Z (most of them) and T (roughly as many legit T as there are P). Ah yeah, PvZ is imbalanced in favor of protoss but we don't see it because foreign Zergs are that much more talented than foreign Protoss. Well, it's just my opinion. When I watch high level P play, they always look in total control, especially because of oracles. I'm not saying what they do takes no skill ; of course it does, otherwise lesser P would start winning games they shouldn't, and this doesn't happen atm. Nevertheless, I can't help but think PvZ (and PvT too) is slightly P favored atm because of how versatile P can be, how much map control they seize early on, how stronger they get their eco going compared to hots, etc. Then again, that's just my low level player opinion and you can disagree on it completely. But I think you need to watch further than numbers and see how the games play out.
When you look at how games play out instead of looking at numbers a lot of it will come down to bias or skill difference. Numbers are really the only thing that counts. That said WCS results really say not much about balance because the best players play in korea.
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EPT
