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On September 11 2017 04:47 Sakat wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:45 GoloSC2 wrote:On September 11 2017 04:43 Sakat wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. What a brilliant combining of two of the greatest logical fallacies ever: argumentum ad populum and argumentum ad autoritatemNumbers don't lie cherrypicking's ok though I'd like for you to show me when I did cherrypicking
not talking about korea? people argue zerg's op vs p based solely on this year's wcs standings
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I a still wating for that top50 P/Z list so i can ask them btw
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On September 11 2017 04:49 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:47 Elentos wrote:On September 11 2017 04:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2017 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. then why is only 1 toss in the top 8 WCS standings? because only Neeb and ShoWTime were sufficiently skilled in the foreign scene to be able to seize the opportunity, and ShoWTime had an awful year for reasons. The other highly talented players of the foreign scene are Z (most of them) and T (roughly as many legit T as there are P). Please edit your post as to not insult PtitDrogo, the greatest French Protoss to have ever played at Blizzcon. actually PtitDrogo was an oversight from me, he is genuinely skilled. Wonder why he had such a rough year overall.
An insulting oversight I had to correct.
I think there's too much bracket luck involved in WCS this year. TLO got Neeb in 3 group stages, Neeb and Major played each other in the bracket stage 3 times while both were title contenders, etc. And it affects Drogo as well. At Valencia and Jonköping he was stuck in one half of a bracket with all the best ZvP players outside of Korea.
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On September 11 2017 04:50 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2017 04:44 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2017 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. then why is only 1 toss in the top 8 WCS standings? because only Neeb and ShoWTime were sufficiently skilled in the foreign scene to be able to seize the opportunity, and ShoWTime had an awful year for reasons. The other highly talented players of the foreign scene are Z (most of them) and T (roughly as many legit T as there are P). Ah yeah, PvZ is imbalanced in favor of protoss but we don't see it because foreign Zergs are that much more talented than foreign Protoss. Well, it's just my opinion. When I watch high level P play, they always look in total control, especially because of oracles. I'm not saying what they do takes no skill ; of course it does, otherwise lesser P would start winning games they shouldn't, and this doesn't happen atm. Nevertheless, I can't help but think PvZ (and PvT too) is slightly P favored atm because of how versatile P can be, how much map control they seize early on, how stronger they get their eco going compared to hots, etc. Then again, that's just my low level player opinion and you can disagree on it completely. But I think you need to watch further than numbers and see how the games play out. When you look at how games play out instead of looking at numbers a lot of it will come down to bias or skill difference. Numbers are really the only thing that counts. That said WCS results really say not much about balance because the best players play in korea.
The fundamental problem with all the numbers in SC2 (and sports in general) is that "skill" is a nebulous term that's extremely difficult, if not impossible, to objectively quantify.
Aligulac tries, but while it's an admirable attempt it obviously still has several glaring flaws
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On September 11 2017 04:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I a still wating for that top50 P/Z list so i can ask them btw
Why don't you do your work? :D
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On September 11 2017 04:50 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:47 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2017 04:44 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:42 [PkF] Wire wrote:On September 11 2017 04:39 Charoisaur wrote:On September 11 2017 04:35 Nerchio wrote:On September 11 2017 04:31 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:26 Myrddrael wrote:On September 11 2017 04:20 SnowfaLL wrote:On September 11 2017 04:12 Trizz wrote:
Zerg has no micro options, all they can do is flank.
In battles like these with hydra/base vs sentry/storm it's all on the protoss and none on the zerg.
Something has to change, honestly. Well, take NEEB out of the tournament and here is your top 16 ZvP matches: TRUE 3:0 DnS Scarlett 3:2 Harstrem Serral 3:0 MaNa Snute 3:1 Has So, in actual matchups without Neeb in the game, zerg won 4 out of 4 matchups. Yeah, really weak race. How about just admitting Neeb is SO FAR ahead of all these nerds - thats why these finals are always so one sided despite zerg DOMINATING the rest of the tournament. (6 zerg out of top 8?? yeah. so bad.) This. Have a Zerg and a Terran as good as Neeb is and things would be different. Zerg tears tho And the really sad thing is that Snute and Scarlett are both mechanically as good as Neeb, but for some stupid reason, they have this mental block vs a great protoss like Neeb and just do terrible all-ins and stupid decisions that lose them the series in 30 minutes.. (causing casual watchers to think zerg is weak rofl).. They dont do that vs other protosses like Has or MaNa, but vs Neeb they just go "Welp, I cant win anyways so mise well do a terrible 2 base timing!" - Its basically the mentality of foreigner zerg since the artosis/idra days - they are so ingrained with the balance whining that they dont even try unless they THINK they are massively superior vs an opponent. If Neeb switched to Zerg, he would be GSL level. He is just a superior player in all aspects of the game. The problem was always that you can talk whatever shit you want but I need to prove the imbalance in 50 page essays. To be honest no % statistics that you can bring up will show if PvZ is broken or not. Try asking all top50 zergs and top50 protosses if PvZ is fair at the moment and then draw some conclusions. 49 out of 50 zergs(except TLO) will say it's not and probably even half of protosses will say the same. then why is only 1 toss in the top 8 WCS standings? because only Neeb and ShoWTime were sufficiently skilled in the foreign scene to be able to seize the opportunity, and ShoWTime had an awful year for reasons. The other highly talented players of the foreign scene are Z (most of them) and T (roughly as many legit T as there are P). Ah yeah, PvZ is imbalanced in favor of protoss but we don't see it because foreign Zergs are that much more talented than foreign Protoss. Well, it's just my opinion. When I watch high level P play, they always look in total control, especially because of oracles. I'm not saying what they do takes no skill ; of course it does, otherwise lesser P would start winning games they shouldn't, and this doesn't happen atm. Nevertheless, I can't help but think PvZ (and PvT too) is slightly P favored atm because of how versatile P can be, how much map control they seize early on, how stronger they get their eco going compared to hots, etc. Then again, that's just my low level player opinion and you can disagree on it completely. But I think you need to watch further than numbers and see how the games play out. When you look at how games play out instead of looking at numbers a lot of it will come down to bias or skill difference. Numbers are really the only thing that counts. That said WCS results really say not much about balance because the best players play in korea.
yeah ofc, ofc... Still, I don't remember the last time I saw a P losing a non mirror without making at least one mistake I found blatant. This doesn't happen for me on the other sides of the match-ups, although you can argue I don't understand Z and T as well so I'm less able to see what they could have done better to avoid defeat, which would be a totally valid point.
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why is neeb so much superior to other foreigners?
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Is this the kind of "Foreigner Starcraft" people were looking for? It has to be the worst Major experience ever. It is so bad that the best player are missing
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On September 11 2017 04:53 sharkie wrote:
why is neeb so much superior to other foreigners?
He is former Terran, so he isn't lazy.
It's like climb Everest and then a graveyard.
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I don´t think that one race is particular OP or UP at the highest level, look at korean WCS it´s pretty even (maybe Zerg is a little bit lower than T and P but not significant)
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On September 11 2017 04:53 Heyjoray wrote:
Is this the kind of "Foreigner Starcraft" people were looking for? It has to be the worst Major experience ever. It is so bad that the best player are missing
yup, i had fun this tourney, i was excited about he matches
i'm very sorry the tournament did not meet your expectations, but there's a lot of korean starcraft to watch
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On September 11 2017 04:43 Beyond Magic wrote:
through ages of sc2, there has never been a topnotch nonkorean terran. Has any nonkorean terran even won any tournaments?
edit : nvm, thorzain was probably only one who managed for a short while.
Neeb 
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On September 11 2017 04:53 Heyjoray wrote:
Is this the kind of "Foreigner Starcraft" people were looking for? It has to be the worst Major experience ever. It is so bad that the best player are missing
What are you talking about? It is best expansion by far, both tournament wise and game design (OK expect mass oracle and MC bullshit).
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On September 11 2017 04:53 Nerchio wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:
I a still wating for that top50 P/Z list so i can ask them btw Why don't you do your work? :D
Hey i already have to ask them, you can at least give me the list
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On September 11 2017 04:53 sharkie wrote:
why is neeb so much superior to other foreigners?
more talented
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On September 11 2017 04:56 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:53 sharkie wrote:
why is neeb so much superior to other foreigners? more talented
and not as lazy
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On September 11 2017 04:53 Heyjoray wrote:
Is this the kind of "Foreigner Starcraft" people were looking for? It has to be the worst Major experience ever. It is so bad that the best player are missing
Neeb is on another level, but I enjoyed many of the matches. I had GSL on for Dark vs Innovation and was bored to tears because I didn't really care for the two players.
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On September 11 2017 04:58 Parrek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:53 Heyjoray wrote:
Is this the kind of "Foreigner Starcraft" people were looking for? It has to be the worst Major experience ever. It is so bad that the best player are missing Neeb is on another level, but I enjoyed many of the matches. I had GSL on for Dark vs Innovation and was bored to tears because I didn't really care for the two players.
If you managed to get bored by that series I have to say your priorities are not great
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On September 11 2017 04:58 Parrek wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2017 04:53 Heyjoray wrote:
Is this the kind of "Foreigner Starcraft" people were looking for? It has to be the worst Major experience ever. It is so bad that the best player are missing Neeb is on another level, but I enjoyed many of the matches. I had GSL on for Dark vs Innovation and was bored to tears because I didn't really care for the two players.
While I can understand cheering for your favorite, Dark vs Inno could've been barcodes and those games would still have been fucking amazing.
Bored to tears by Game 3, I don't even.....
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EPT
