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Discussion of Naniwa's mental health (unless you know him personally or you email me your phd diploma) after page 96 will be dealt with severely. I suggest you talk about the games instead. |
On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof.
I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line.
Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?"
Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match.
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I read this every while:
[...]he can BM and create drama, but the kind of drama he creates is actually good for the game, it draws attention, feelings, it creates storylines and rivalry.
Honestly this is not true at all. No one of the outside of sc2 cares about a sc2 drama, nor does it draw any particular attention. Within the scene, it certainly adds to the popularity of Naniwa - some would say any press is good press. But that is not the case here.
If we knew that someone made a story up in a fictional e-sports magazine just to sell more of their papers, then granted the story could be seen as positive for Naniwa. But most of the people writing here TOOK PART in the actual event and were witness of the player's missbehaviour. It's just another time he proved that he was immature, that's really all there is too it. Very often the way how to communicate something makes the difference, the right tone. He certainly didn't find it.
In professional sports you need to control your temper. You also need to acknowledge if someone was better than you and if the win was deserved. For example Stephano always says 'GG wp mate' after he loses; why is he so much better at this than other individuals? Think about it.
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On January 10 2015 20:12 Johnnyq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line. Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?" Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match.
I think that 90% of progamers wouldn't have done that. Naniwa is certainly someone from whom you can expect such behaviour (IEM's match vs polt). I doubt he broke any wcs rule by doing what he did. So yeah, you don't need to be polite to be a player; however, you do need to be polite to be a respected (from the most) player. Obviously, it looks like naniwa is someone who definitely doesn't care about being respected, so that's fine for him. Community also enjoys drama so he's probably someone who is good to have in the scene.
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I think it was great that Naniwa got through the qualifier. Also shame on Happy if he really did stream cheat (I heard there was some suspicious behaviour? Clarification would be nice). Just shows that Naniwa still is one of the best if he really tries.
Also, what the hell about the people arguing about his mental health?! Just because he didn't write a meaningless message at the end of a game doesn't make him autistic, the tweet to Happy was more in response to Happy being a dick and taking it to a personal level (which probably was in response to the stream cheat accusations).
It's just a little fight between the two, and not a question wether anybody has autism.
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On January 10 2015 20:12 Johnnyq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line. Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?" Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match.
That's because the majority of soccer players is not very intelligent and most would have a very simple job if they were no soccer pros. In a game like SC2 where you have to think a lot, you should expect an adequate behavior.
According to your logic it is too demanding to be good mannered after a game? So why didn't Minato flame Lillekanine after the 2 hours game where the Terran only played around for most of the time until he decided to end the game?
Because Minato knows what good manners are.
Imagine it becomes standard to be bm everywhere, e.g. you ask for advice in the strategy forum and you only get responses like "Google strategies for yourself noob". This is the direction we're heading if we don't have any rules concerning manners.
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I'd have rather seen Snute and Petraeus advance. I dont have faith in Targa and don't belive in the consistency (of skill and interest) of Naniwa. Kind of a lost slot given away to someone who might not even play the game when the main tournament is on. Meh.
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On January 10 2015 21:10 TurboMaN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 20:12 Johnnyq wrote:On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line. Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?" Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match. According to your logic it is too demanding to be good mannered after a game? So why didn't Minato flame Lillekanine after the 2 hours game where the Terran only played around for most of the time until he decided to end the game? Because Minato knows what good manners are.
I think that's just because Minato is a mannered and calm guy, he got bm'ed repeatedly by Lillekanin, and just said "please stop  ". After such a long and for the most part boring and imbalanced game and additionally the BM it would have been very warrented to bm.
And in my opinion it would be absolutely ok if Naniwa legitimately thought Happy was hacking to bm and tell his suspicions. If you think occasional bm will all of a sudden turn the sc2 community into fight club, then you're mistaken.
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On January 10 2015 21:24 Jvattic wrote:
I'd have rather seen Snute and Petraeus advance. I dont have faith in Targa and don't belive in the consistency (of skill and interest) of Naniwa. Kind of a lost slot given away to someone who might not even play the game when the main tournament is on. Meh.
Snute lost 2-1 to Targa in Q3, won 2-1 over Targa in Q2. I suppose they know each other very well.
Those who qualify here certainly deserve their spots. I think it is great that every one starts from exactly the same level, from zero. No freebies just because you were good in 2012 or whatever.
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On January 10 2015 21:10 TurboMaN wrote:
That's because the majority of soccer players is not very intelligent and most would have a very simple job if they were no soccer pros. In a game like SC2 where you have to think a lot, you should expect an adequate behavior.
Ah yes, let the sweaty plebians insult each other while we sit on our high horses.
People "bm" in games of chess. This argument is just pointless.
According to your logic it is too demanding to be good mannered after a game? So why didn't Minato flame Lillekanine after the 2 hours game where the Terran only played around for most of the time until he decided to end the game?
Because Minato knows what good manners are.
Because Minato didn't suspect that Lillekanine broke the rules? It's not like Naniwa came out and insulted Happy, he put forth an accusation (not on twitter, mind you, but in the lobby where it's supposed to happen). Yeah it can be a false accusation and he was a jerk about it as well, but it's not the same situation at all
Imagine it becomes standard to be bm everywhere, e.g. you ask for advice in the strategy forum and you only get responses like "Google strategies for yourself noob". This is the direction we're heading if we don't have any rules concerning manners.
aka TL rules?
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On January 10 2015 21:10 TurboMaN wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 20:12 Johnnyq wrote:On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line. Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?" Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match. That's because the majority of soccer players is not very intelligent and most would have a very simple job if they were no soccer pros. In a game like SC2 where you have to think a lot, you should expect an adequate behavior. According to your logic it is too demanding to be good mannered after a game? So why didn't Minato flame Lillekanine after the 2 hours game where the Terran only played around for most of the time until he decided to end the game? Because Minato knows what good manners are. Imagine it becomes standard to be bm everywhere, e.g. you ask for advice in the strategy forum and you only get responses like "Google strategies for yourself noob". This is the direction we're heading if we don't have any rules concerning manners.
seriously?
being in academia, i personally do not consider myself stupid. however, it is way beyond me to how anyone can draw intellectual justification from playing a game.
your comment is arrogant and demeaning towards football players. maybe you just don't understand football well enough to grasp the concept of game intelligence required to e.g. become a good mid-fielder.
the way people react in stressful situation differs. this does not mean i condone shitty behavior, nevertheless i can understand that if you are on the edge, that you may as well flip out over things. players are no robots - in "real life" you will meet short-tempered people as well. think of them what you want.
regarding your last paragraph: while i did not particularly enjoy such comments when i used to play games "competitively", they were way more common than they are now. we are not heading anywhere bad, quite the contrary, actually.
you will not be able to achieve a state in which everyone feels comfortable in a scene as large as the sc2 community, unless you start banning everyone who says anything that might come across offensive to literally anybody in the internet. if i was a football player, i would be offended by your comment. would you enjoy to be banned over it?
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On January 10 2015 09:57 boxerfred wrote:
I stand with it. No wcs for me as long as naniwa is in that. ESL was and is a great organization but poor Messioso did not do well tonight imo. gnite, everyone.
After having a night of sleep and re-thinking the situation - Sorry, messioso. The on-the-fly solution was according to the rules and even allowed us to watch the game. Naniwa demanding "no observer" is totally fine and within the rules. Blaming Happy of cheating/ghosting is still stupid, but that's just Naniwa. I'll just go down to not watch this guy anymore and make a little party everytime he drops out of a tournament. As for the rest of nani drama, I'll try to ignore it. That's probably the best thing I can do.
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On January 10 2015 21:37 BaneRiders wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 21:24 Jvattic wrote:
I'd have rather seen Snute and Petraeus advance. I dont have faith in Targa and don't belive in the consistency (of skill and interest) of Naniwa. Kind of a lost slot given away to someone who might not even play the game when the main tournament is on. Meh. Snute lost 2-1 to Targa in Q3, won 2-1 over Targa in Q2. I suppose they know each other very well. Those who qualify here certainly deserve their spots. I think it is great that every one starts from exactly the same level, from zero. No freebies just because you were good in 2012 or whatever.
Yes, they play each other a lot, and Targa is good and he earned his spot, but I think it is more likely for Snute to beat the very best. That's why I would have prefered to see him advance instead. Nothing to do with freebies or stuff like that
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On January 10 2015 20:12 Johnnyq wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line. Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?" Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match.
Well, and what happens in football when you walk up to the referee and start complaining too much and for too long?
![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-FLRK9WlpDlE/UV-C0IJbjuI/AAAAAAAAAQE/K9oNSx6K7DA/s1600/pemain+menerima+kartu+kuning.jpg)
And if you do it twice or continue to talk shit you are a gonner.
People aren't gentlemen in other sports either, but when they aren't, they get some punishment for it. Noone's demanding that players must not be passionate and get emotional, it would just be nice if at some point we would have an authority step in and say: "ok, we've heard you. Now it's enough, get back to playing."
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On January 10 2015 22:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 20:12 Johnnyq wrote:On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line. Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?" Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match. Well, and what happens in football when you walk up to the referee and start complaining too much and for too long? And if you do it twice or continue to talk shit you are a gonner. People aren't gentlemen in other sports either, but when they aren't, they get some punishment for it. Noone's demanding that players must not be passionate and get emotional, it would just be nice if at some point we would have an authority step in and say: "ok, we've heard you. Now it's enough, get back to playing."
if you want to draw the analogy to football the situation would be the following: imagine a derby and roughly 50% of all viewers rooting for team 1. player X (team 1) insults player Y (team 2) and vice versa. the referee does not care & 50% of the viewers all of a sudden call for a card for player X/Y.
fortunately, viewers don't have a say in the decision.
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3 Millenium players 
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On January 10 2015 23:13 limbonic wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 22:54 Big J wrote:On January 10 2015 20:12 Johnnyq wrote:On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line. Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?" Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match. Well, and what happens in football when you walk up to the referee and start complaining too much and for too long? And if you do it twice or continue to talk shit you are a gonner. People aren't gentlemen in other sports either, but when they aren't, they get some punishment for it. Noone's demanding that players must not be passionate and get emotional, it would just be nice if at some point we would have an authority step in and say: "ok, we've heard you. Now it's enough, get back to playing." if you want to draw the analogy to football the situation would be the following: imagine a derby and roughly 50% of all viewers rooting for team 1. player X (team 1) insults player Y (team 2) and vice versa. the referee does not care & 50% of the viewers all of a sudden call for a card for player X/Y. fortunately, viewers don't have a say in the decision.
Not everything that goes lame is a comparison.
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On January 10 2015 22:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 20:12 Johnnyq wrote:On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line. Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?" Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match. Well, and what happens in football when you walk up to the referee and start complaining too much and for too long? And if you do it twice or continue to talk shit you are a gonner. People aren't gentlemen in other sports either, but when they aren't, they get some punishment for it. Noone's demanding that players must not be passionate and get emotional, it would just be nice if at some point we would have an authority step in and say: "ok, we've heard you. Now it's enough, get back to playing."
Do you realise why people mustn't complain in soccer?
The referee can't change anything about his decision after he called it, it's completely irrelevant what the player says or does. Even if he had a video of the incident that just happened the referee couldn't change his decision.
The solution in this case was as simple as telling the russian stream to put up a delay. And Naniwa asked for them to leave because they didn't have the delay... I don't see a problem with that.
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On January 10 2015 23:22 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 23:13 limbonic wrote:On January 10 2015 22:54 Big J wrote:On January 10 2015 20:12 Johnnyq wrote:On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line. Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?" Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match. Well, and what happens in football when you walk up to the referee and start complaining too much and for too long? And if you do it twice or continue to talk shit you are a gonner. People aren't gentlemen in other sports either, but when they aren't, they get some punishment for it. Noone's demanding that players must not be passionate and get emotional, it would just be nice if at some point we would have an authority step in and say: "ok, we've heard you. Now it's enough, get back to playing." if you want to draw the analogy to football the situation would be the following: imagine a derby and roughly 50% of all viewers rooting for team 1. player X (team 1) insults player Y (team 2) and vice versa. the referee does not care & 50% of the viewers all of a sudden call for a card for player X/Y. fortunately, viewers don't have a say in the decision. Not everything that goes lame is a comparison.
which is why your's doesn't work.
(does "nicht alles was hinkt ist ein vergleich" even directly translate into english? :D)
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On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 19:55 Johnnyq wrote:
I don't see what the fuss is about. Fact is the RUS stream had not enough delay. And it is valid for nani to think of the possibility of stream-cheating after Happy had the perfect defense without any tell and therefore demand for safer game conditions. Why is that a "drama"? If anything you guys should blame the rus streamer for unprofessional behaviour. It's not without any tell. He saw that the only units naniwa had were 2 sentries. When you play normally , usually at that timing you have 1 sentry and 1 stalker, you don't need 2 sentries especially in nimbus where you can block the whole ramp with 1 forcefield. Also if Happy was stream cheating, he wouldn't be totally unprepared for naniwa's DT drop (which still did 0 damage because he chose to warp only 1 dt, but happy couldn't know that beforehand). It's valid to "think" about it. It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. A normal person would have politely asked the admin to check that every stream had delay and that's it. In that case there wouldn't have been any drama at all.
WCS Player Handbook, pg. 32:
Guidelines for non-official World Championship Series Shoutcasters and Streams
The shoutcaster must receive permission from both players to broadcast if the game is being broadcast on a non-official World Championship Series Qualifier stream;
The stream must be broadcast on a 5 minute delay;
IMHO, the 2nd game should be replayed because of the Russian stream. No delay allows all kind of dirty stuff to happen. How did this even happen?
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On January 10 2015 23:22 SoulmaN__ wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2015 22:54 Big J wrote:On January 10 2015 20:12 Johnnyq wrote:On January 10 2015 20:01 KingAlphard wrote:
[It's not valid to ragequit and publicly accuse your opponent on stream without any proof. I don't think you need to be polite to be a player. And I understand the passion and heat of such a moment. If you felt there was smth fishy going on.. you would not keep your temper. Nobody would. There is a lot on the line. Have you heard of any soccer player calmly walking to the ref and asking him "Sorry to bother you mate, but I do think I was touching the ball and don't think you should give them that free kick. But only if it's okay with you?" Please.. think about what you demand from players after the first 40min, high tension match. Well, and what happens in football when you walk up to the referee and start complaining too much and for too long? And if you do it twice or continue to talk shit you are a gonner. People aren't gentlemen in other sports either, but when they aren't, they get some punishment for it. Noone's demanding that players must not be passionate and get emotional, it would just be nice if at some point we would have an authority step in and say: "ok, we've heard you. Now it's enough, get back to playing." Do you realise why people mustn't complain in soccer? The referee can't change anything about his decision after he called it, it's completely irrelevant what the player says or does. Even if he had a video of the incident that just happened the referee couldn't change his decision. The solution in this case was as simple as telling the russian stream to put up a delay. And Naniwa asked for them to leave because they didn't have the delay... I don't see a problem with that.
Your premise is wrong.
The referee can't change anything about his decision after he called it, it's completely irrelevant what the player says or does
That is just not true. There is a famous case from German Bundesliga where the referee gave a penalty and then the supposed to be fouled player told the referee that it wasn't a foul and the referee withdrew his decision and the game continuued without a penalty.
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EPT
