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[DreamHack] Winter 2014 - Day 3 - Page 132

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States14003 Posts
November 29 2014 20:51 GMT
#2621
On November 30 2014 05:44 Gotnerves wrote:
Playing Campaign for practice helped life beat taeja.

#campaign new meta, protoss will never lose a dramhick soon
Engage, Zero target Engage, Engage, Kagari target Engage, Engage.
Makro
Profile Joined March 2011
France16890 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-29 20:51:43
November 29 2014 20:51 GMT
#2622
i'm still twisted about the winner bracket advantage in the grand final, because you can also consider that having more match to play(in the loser bracket) is already a handicap itself

so i can understand dreamhack decision here
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".
TL+ Member
Gwavajuice
Profile Joined June 2014
France1810 Posts
November 29 2014 20:51 GMT
#2623
Guys don't forget that it could have been Taeja...

How could Taeja having to play 3 more Bo5 and starting the grand finals with any kind of deficit would have been fair?

Coming back froom looser braket is already hard enough no need to give another advantage to the finalist. Like form all the tournaments taht used this system how many times the guy from looser bracket ended up wining?

(Not mentionning that to be totally consinstent, it would need to be 1 bo5 + another bo5 if the looser bracket winners wins first one, which ends up being kind a lot of games..)
Dear INno and all the former STX boys.
HellHound
Profile Joined September 2014
Bulgaria5962 Posts
November 29 2014 20:51 GMT
#2624
On November 30 2014 05:45 Supersamu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2014 05:42 CosmicSpiral wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:40 HolydaKing wrote:
Well I'll just say I'm not agreeing with this system. Rather see either single elimination or a reasonable advantage for the player that could basically have already won the tournament if it was single elimination. Personally I even think a 2-0 advantage is better than a 1-0 advantage in a bo7, but nothing is just wrong for me.


2-0 advantage is a Bo7 is stupid. It mean that the loser has to go 4-1, which gives the winner too much space to take risks.


What are risks in a game of starcraft 2? You always aim for maximizing your winning chances in each particular game, aren't you?

Many a facepalm came into this world through your post.
Classic GosoO |sOs| Everyone has to give in, let Life win | Zest Is The Best | Roach Cultist | I recognize the might and wisdom of my Otherworldly overlord | Air vs Air 200/200 SC2 is best SC2 | PRIME has been robbed | Fuck prime go ST | ROACH ROACH ROACH
vult
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
United States9400 Posts
November 29 2014 20:51 GMT
#2625
On November 30 2014 05:49 Gotnerves wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2014 05:47 vult wrote:
1-0 in a bo7 for the WB winner is the best solution in the least amount of games. I think the most optimal solution is 2-0 I'm Bo9 but that's a lot of games. That way the LB player has to win a BO5 and a BO3 to win the tourney pretty much.



Patriots should have started up 14-0 against the Giants the Year they never lost a game.


But the playoffs aren't double elim...
I used to play random, but for you I play very specifically.
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States14003 Posts
November 29 2014 20:51 GMT
#2626
On November 30 2014 05:45 The_Templar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2014 05:44 Gotnerves wrote:
Playing Campaign for practice helped life beat taeja.

Kerrigan ruined everything this tournament -.-

STARTALE LIFEU
Engage, Zero target Engage, Engage, Kagari target Engage, Engage.
HolydaKing
Profile Joined February 2010
21254 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-29 20:52:50
November 29 2014 20:51 GMT
#2627
On November 30 2014 05:48 Superbanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2014 05:46 shockaslim wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:44 Superbanana wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:41 Lonyo wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:39 Superbanana wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:37 mikumegurine wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:35 Superbanana wrote:
I think its more unfair to give any sort of advantage to the winners bracket grand finalist :/
Imagine if its Taeja advancing, if forGG wins with any advantage its really hard to say he is the better player.


the winner bracket guy never lost, why does Taeja get 2 lives, but ForGG only gets 1 life (because hes so good he never lost, he only gets 1 life, everyone else get 2 lives)?

But he had to win less series.
The logic of the format is to narrow down to the best 2 players and make them play one series fair and square to decide the champion.

The logic of the format is that you get 2 chances to be eliminated. The person who makes it to the end without being eliminated twice is the winner.
If you do an ACTUAL double elimination tournament, that is.

This format is designed to be a mess where not getting eliminated doesn't really benefit you.

If you give one extra life to forGG, then its unfair that Life had to beat Taeja in the losers bracket.
But i do agree the format is a mess.


Not necessarily. Life already lost...so why should ForGG only lose once and be out?

I already explained, if forGG have an extra life then its unfair that Life had to win an extra series vs Taeja.
Its ALSO unfair that forGG have a single life, but giving him an extra life is not a fix.

how is it unfair for Life? he can be happy to have the opportunity to play Taeja and be still in the tournament.
Lonyo
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
United Kingdom3884 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-11-29 20:52:49
November 29 2014 20:52 GMT
#2628
On November 30 2014 05:48 Superbanana wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2014 05:46 shockaslim wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:44 Superbanana wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:41 Lonyo wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:39 Superbanana wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:37 mikumegurine wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:35 Superbanana wrote:
I think its more unfair to give any sort of advantage to the winners bracket grand finalist :/
Imagine if its Taeja advancing, if forGG wins with any advantage its really hard to say he is the better player.


the winner bracket guy never lost, why does Taeja get 2 lives, but ForGG only gets 1 life (because hes so good he never lost, he only gets 1 life, everyone else get 2 lives)?

But he had to win less series.
The logic of the format is to narrow down to the best 2 players and make them play one series fair and square to decide the champion.

The logic of the format is that you get 2 chances to be eliminated. The person who makes it to the end without being eliminated twice is the winner.
If you do an ACTUAL double elimination tournament, that is.

This format is designed to be a mess where not getting eliminated doesn't really benefit you.

If you give one extra life to forGG, then its unfair that Life had to beat Taeja in the losers bracket.
But i do agree the format is a mess.


Not necessarily. Life already lost...so why should ForGG only lose once and be out?

I already explained, if forGG have an extra life then its unfair that Life had to win an extra series vs Taeja.
Its ALSO unfair that forGG have a single life, but giving him an extra life is not a fix.

Yes it is. Giving him an extra life makes it a pure double elimination tournament. That's the point. You have to be eliminated twice. Giving him an extra life makes it fair.
The reason Life had to win a series vs Taeja is because he lost to ForGG.

Double elimination. You need to lose twice to be eliminated.
Single elimination. You need to lose once to be eliminated.

Life: Lost once so far, loses again and he's eliminated. Double elimination.
ForGG: Not lost so far, loses once and he's eliminated. Single elimination.

Therefore IT'S UNFAIR. By failing to lose, ForGG plays a single elimination tournament while everyone else plays a double elimination tournament.
HOLY CHECK!
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States14003 Posts
November 29 2014 20:52 GMT
#2629
On November 30 2014 05:51 vult wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2014 05:49 Gotnerves wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:47 vult wrote:
1-0 in a bo7 for the WB winner is the best solution in the least amount of games. I think the most optimal solution is 2-0 I'm Bo9 but that's a lot of games. That way the LB player has to win a BO5 and a BO3 to win the tourney pretty much.



Patriots should have started up 14-0 against the Giants the Year they never lost a game.


But the playoffs aren't double elim...

the nfl and sc2 are completely different????
Engage, Zero target Engage, Engage, Kagari target Engage, Engage.
KingofdaHipHop
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
United States25602 Posts
November 29 2014 20:52 GMT
#2630
On November 30 2014 05:50 kaykoose wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2014 05:49 Gotnerves wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:47 vult wrote:
1-0 in a bo7 for the WB winner is the best solution in the least amount of games. I think the most optimal solution is 2-0 I'm Bo9 but that's a lot of games. That way the LB player has to win a BO5 and a BO3 to win the tourney pretty much.



Patriots should have started up 14-0 against the Giants the Year they never lost a game.


I wish TT. Just brought back some bad memories

I was happy
Rain | herO | sOs | Dear | Neeb | ByuN | INnoVation | Dream | ForGG | Maru | ByuL | Golden | Solar | Soulkey | Scarlett!!!
era909
Profile Joined January 2012
Sweden139 Posts
November 29 2014 20:53 GMT
#2631
I think this way to do it is fair in any tournament where you have group stages to determine the brackets for the knockout stages. Since placement in brackets depends on which players you face in the group stages it's impossible to make it "fair" in the sense that you get two chances to lose before you're out.

Let's look at a hypothetical scenario where Polt won his two games in the winners bracket and advanced to the grand finals. There he comes up against Taeja.

Both players won two games and lost two games in the group stages, and neither lost a game in the knockout stages, but since Taeja had a different group his two wins earned him a place in the losers bracket instead. Now when they reach the finals it's Polt with 4-2 in wins-losses and Taeja with 7-2 in wins-losses. Is it then fair that Polt starts with an advantage because he had a more even group in the group stages?

If you do a pure double elimination bracket with no group stages to determine seeds further into the bracket, then I'm okay with a slight advantage for the player going through the winners bracket all the way, because the player from the losers bracket plays at most one more game to get to the finals.

If you have a group stages there is no way to make it fair anyway and I'd prefer a straight up finals to determine the winner.
Cricketer12
Profile Blog Joined May 2012
United States14003 Posts
November 29 2014 20:53 GMT
#2632
On November 30 2014 05:52 Lonyo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2014 05:48 Superbanana wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:46 shockaslim wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:44 Superbanana wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:41 Lonyo wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:39 Superbanana wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:37 mikumegurine wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:35 Superbanana wrote:
I think its more unfair to give any sort of advantage to the winners bracket grand finalist :/
Imagine if its Taeja advancing, if forGG wins with any advantage its really hard to say he is the better player.


the winner bracket guy never lost, why does Taeja get 2 lives, but ForGG only gets 1 life (because hes so good he never lost, he only gets 1 life, everyone else get 2 lives)?

But he had to win less series.
The logic of the format is to narrow down to the best 2 players and make them play one series fair and square to decide the champion.

The logic of the format is that you get 2 chances to be eliminated. The person who makes it to the end without being eliminated twice is the winner.
If you do an ACTUAL double elimination tournament, that is.

This format is designed to be a mess where not getting eliminated doesn't really benefit you.

If you give one extra life to forGG, then its unfair that Life had to beat Taeja in the losers bracket.
But i do agree the format is a mess.


Not necessarily. Life already lost...so why should ForGG only lose once and be out?

I already explained, if forGG have an extra life then its unfair that Life had to win an extra series vs Taeja.
Its ALSO unfair that forGG have a single life, but giving him an extra life is not a fix.

Yes it is. Giving him an extra life makes it a pure double elimination tournament. That's the point. You have to be eliminated twice. Giving him an extra life makes it fair.
The reason Life had to win a series vs Taeja is because he lost to ForGG.

Double elimination. You need to lose twice to be eliminated.
Single elimination. You need to lose once to be eliminated.

Life: Lost once so far, loses again and he's eliminated. Double elimination.
ForGG: Not lost so far, loses once and he's eliminated. Single elimination.

Therefore IT'S UNFAIR.

I get where you are coming from, some tournaments combat this with double series or the MLG style of bo3 into bo7 etc...however I feel like this is fine as it is....
Engage, Zero target Engage, Engage, Kagari target Engage, Engage.
Supersamu
Profile Joined November 2014
Germany296 Posts
November 29 2014 20:54 GMT
#2633
On November 30 2014 05:51 HellHound wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2014 05:45 Supersamu wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:42 CosmicSpiral wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:40 HolydaKing wrote:
Well I'll just say I'm not agreeing with this system. Rather see either single elimination or a reasonable advantage for the player that could basically have already won the tournament if it was single elimination. Personally I even think a 2-0 advantage is better than a 1-0 advantage in a bo7, but nothing is just wrong for me.


2-0 advantage is a Bo7 is stupid. It mean that the loser has to go 4-1, which gives the winner too much space to take risks.


What are risks in a game of starcraft 2? You always aim for maximizing your winning chances in each particular game, aren't you?

Many a facepalm came into this world through your post.


I am serious. I also don't believe in mindgames in SC2. Please state your arguments, I am interested in discussion.
ppgButtercup
Profile Joined July 2009
United States159 Posts
November 29 2014 20:54 GMT
#2634
If it was considered an extension from the previous series, Life would only be one map behind since it was a 3-2. Not as big of a deal as if he had been 3-0'd or something.
If at first you do not succeed, burn everything and pretend it never happened.
KingofdaHipHop
Profile Blog Joined October 2013
United States25602 Posts
November 29 2014 20:55 GMT
#2635
LDLC up 1-0 with a 16-10 round score, good day for French fans everywhere :D
Rain | herO | sOs | Dear | Neeb | ByuN | INnoVation | Dream | ForGG | Maru | ByuL | Golden | Solar | Soulkey | Scarlett!!!
sparklyresidue
Profile Joined August 2011
United States5524 Posts
November 29 2014 20:55 GMT
#2636
How is ForGG so good now? I demand an explanation!
Like Tinkerbelle, I leave behind a sparkly residue.
Aeromi
Profile Blog Joined August 2012
France14463 Posts
November 29 2014 20:55 GMT
#2637
On November 30 2014 05:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
LDLC up 1-0 with a 16-10 round score, good day for French fans everywhere :D

:D

The Redbullcone event is sick too !
https://twitter.com/DrAeromi | Updates on live tournaments: @StarCrafteSport
Makro
Profile Joined March 2011
France16890 Posts
November 29 2014 20:55 GMT
#2638
On November 30 2014 05:55 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
LDLC up 1-0 with a 16-10 round score, good day for French fans everywhere :D

Forgg and LDLC in final, with luffy finishing 4th on USF4, what a great day for me
Matthew 5:10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted because of shitposting, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven".
TL+ Member
kaykoose
Profile Joined February 2014
United States2302 Posts
November 29 2014 20:56 GMT
#2639
On November 30 2014 05:52 KingofdaHipHop wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 30 2014 05:50 kaykoose wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:49 Gotnerves wrote:
On November 30 2014 05:47 vult wrote:
1-0 in a bo7 for the WB winner is the best solution in the least amount of games. I think the most optimal solution is 2-0 I'm Bo9 but that's a lot of games. That way the LB player has to win a BO5 and a BO3 to win the tourney pretty much.



Patriots should have started up 14-0 against the Giants the Year they never lost a game.


I wish TT. Just brought back some bad memories

I was happy


Haha I'm sure every non-Pats fan was super hype.
The_Templar
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
your Country52798 Posts
November 29 2014 20:56 GMT
#2640
On November 30 2014 05:55 sparklyresidue wrote:
How is ForGG so good now? I demand an explanation!

He made lots of hellions and killed everyone! It makes no sense! :D
ModeratorI am still alive, somehow
TL+ Member
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