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No balance whining, caster bashing, or player bashing in this thread. |
On February 01 2013 22:18 Monsen wrote:
Feeding the troll like bawses you guys. Tztztz
He's amusing for sure, but troll or not I can't take insults about Hack so easily. He's going down.
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On February 01 2013 22:18 Monsen wrote:
Feeding the troll like bawses you guys. Tztztz
Flinch isn't trolling lol.
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As a neutral fan this is so damn funny :D
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I don't think there is too much point in posting here, because anything gets burried under loads of pro/anti-stephano wars, but I just wanted to comment that this was a surprisingly good show.
First of all, lone Wolf is much better than I would ever think. Many people seem to loose a lot of steam when casting solo, but Wolf was just able to keep it all together. I think that the "quality of analysis" is very subjective, many people who comment on that are just upset that they don't hear the right kind of bias that they want to hear, so I won't put much consideration into that. There were some obvisously wrong calls, but Artosis does that as well, he is only better in covering it up  All and all, I still probably like Artosis more, because he just has it all thought through a lot even before the games, but I won't object to listening to lone Wolf again - for me, it felt even slightly better than Wolf+Khaldor, but that's largely because Khaldor's accent is still a little annoying to hear, if anything.
Also, I really, really expected Stephano to be stomped. The first game against Innovation, he desired to lose after all, because he kept doing mistakes, but it was not a stopm at all. He has shown that he can manage a large-scale late game on a code S level. To be honest, you don't see a foreigner to do that very often. The other games he lost, I felt he is suffering from a similar (yet very different) problem as IdrA used to have - he does not handle early game aggresion very well, because he is not really adaptable. I think the big reason here is that this is not so much a question of talent, but of strategy and learning - he manages the late game so well because he is simply so skilled, but to get better in the early game, I believe that he needs to just put a lot more work into it.
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On February 01 2013 22:18 Shaddar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:15 liberate71 wrote:On February 01 2013 22:14 Shaddar wrote:On February 01 2013 22:12 liberate71 wrote:On February 01 2013 22:08 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 22:05 Vertigro wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. that's a little harsh? hack as far as i know qualified for code S fair and square? he deserved to be in that group, and whilst he was clearly one of the weaker 32 players, had still earn't his right to be there, also, I didn't see stephano getting "demolished" by innovation? I saw an innovation was was better prepared and superior in terms of tactical choice, but in terms of ability i think stephano held his own and more (see game 2 of the 2nd series)... everyone know's hypetrains are annoying, but anti-fan bias is just as irritating No, Stephano got 1-4'd. He won one game in 5, that is getting demolished. The 4 games Innovation won weren't even close. Stephano got STOMPED by Innovation, you can't twist that. Youre so god damn angry. If Stephano won that game, they would have been 2:3 but Stephano advancing. Who's the better player then? Would Stephano have been "beaten" by Innovation yet be in the RO16 instead? Yeah but that didn't happen. So... Phew. I'm glad you pointed out that my hypothetical situation didn't occur. Thanks mate <3 My point is that there's no point talking about hypothetical situations in this case.
Thanks for your input I guess, it seems Flinch chose to dodge the question anyway
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France12886 Posts
On February 01 2013 22:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:06 Poopi wrote:On February 01 2013 22:03 vthree wrote:On February 01 2013 22:00 Poopi wrote:On February 01 2013 21:58 SiroKO wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:49 vthree wrote:On February 01 2013 21:46 Vindicare605 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:43 decado90 wrote:On February 01 2013 21:42 Vindicare605 wrote:
[quote]
They were a good match for each other. I dont want to jump to any conclusions about who's more skilled by just one series.
Innovation made the Semis last season and beat a lot of top Zergs to get there. he's definitely quality.
But Stephano stuck right there with him and in the same night also outclassed Hack. He's a top Zerg even if his haters don't want to admit it. He got put in a tough group and barely didnt make it out. No harm in that, better players than him have said the same thing. Code S is tough and Stephano just learned that firsthand. Are you serious dude? Bogus is so much better than Stephano. He actually has a chance to win the GSL for starters. Dead serious. Stephano is a superior macro player in general IMO but Innovation beat him using superior decision making and early game tactics. A lot of that has to do with a probable lack of preparation on Stephano's part which is normal considering that GSL is much different than any of the marathon foreigner events he's used to playing. I think given time to adjust more to the way GSL is played as well as some better scouting I think Stephano could take him in a long series. His game number 2 was about as one sided as a TvZ can possibly be which tells me that if Innovation doesn't manage to secure an early advantage somehow that Stephano will crush him with his superior late game. It's a normal dynamic between players of similar skill level. I think Stephano and Bogus' macro play are on a similar level. But the game gives the advantage to macro zergs over macro terrans right now. The terrans basically needs to stifle the zerg's eco before it gets out of hand. Did you see Bomber's games by chance? I mean in general there's definitely an advantage for Zergs in the later game if they aren't harassed or pressured that's obvious sure, but game 2 was more than just the Zerg late game advantage. Stephano beat Innovation in virtually every catergory. Superior macro, superior multitasking, superior army movement and scouting, superior compositions, unbelievable creep spread that was almost impossible to check. I mean yea Zerg has a nice late game advantage but I'd love to see Stephano try and trounce Bomber or Gumiho the way he slaughtered Innovation in game 2. Their late game play is far superior IMO. Bomber and Gumiho won a single bo3 against Sniper and now they're the TvZ messia... Lol why don't you stop with that? :D Bomber won quite a lot of TvZ recently, in good fashion. He really is the terran with the most chance to do well in this GSL TvZ wise if he doesn't choke like he did a lot of times in the past. Bomber's TvZ is really good. But I still think he is a huge underdog vs Life, DRG. And slight underdog to Symbol. And probably 50/50 vs Curious, LosirA. Yeah but he is the best chance we have. With our 3x% winrate we don't have a lot anyways. Hopefully in HoTS, Blizzard will take a look at creep spread. Because I don't even think it is the units (infestors, BL, etc) anymore. Once the creep gets going, there is not much terran can do other than to wait for the zerg to make mistakes. Terrans have 0 map control and zergs choose exactly when and where they want to engage. Or else we are just going to see terrans going to that early siege tank widow mines push
Yeah when you play terran at a certain level creep spread is what scares you the most. Even against lower players when the creep spreead will not be as good as in these code S games, it is still stressful. I can't imagine how shit Bogus was probably feeling in the two games on akilon flat, it's impressive that he gathered himself up in the whirlwind game.
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This guy has been waiting for this moment for so long, slapping down those Stephano fanboyz. He's having a great time right now!
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On February 01 2013 22:19 Zelniq wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:16 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 22:15 Zelniq wrote:On February 01 2013 22:12 liberate71 wrote:On February 01 2013 22:08 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 22:05 Vertigro wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. that's a little harsh? hack as far as i know qualified for code S fair and square? he deserved to be in that group, and whilst he was clearly one of the weaker 32 players, had still earn't his right to be there, also, I didn't see stephano getting "demolished" by innovation? I saw an innovation was was better prepared and superior in terms of tactical choice, but in terms of ability i think stephano held his own and more (see game 2 of the 2nd series)... everyone know's hypetrains are annoying, but anti-fan bias is just as irritating No, Stephano got 1-4'd. He won one game in 5, that is getting demolished. The 4 games Innovation won weren't even close. Stephano got STOMPED by Innovation, you can't twist that. Youre so god damn angry. If Stephano won that game, they would have been 2:3 but Stephano advancing. Who's the better player then? Would Stephano have been "beaten" by Innovation yet be in the RO16 instead? final game was close. the hellion allin and 11 11 rax allin are builds where it's hard to make it a close game..if the zerg loses it looks 1 sided, if the zerg holds it looks 1 sided for the zerg. and even in their first game it was pretty close for a long while, stephano put up a good fight and held many many drops/attacks. Are you joking? Stephano got dismantled on whirlwind. i'm not joking, and i would agree that bogus 'dismantled' him but it was still a slow dismantling that wasn't always going his way the entire time. several of the drops/attacks stephano held in a manner that went in his favor. if he had kept that up a bit longer he would have had a lead
Ouch he's banned and you replied to him, ultimate misuse of power from a mod ;p
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On February 01 2013 22:15 Flinch wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:11 Bjarne wrote:On February 01 2013 22:08 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 22:05 Vertigro wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. that's a little harsh? hack as far as i know qualified for code S fair and square? he deserved to be in that group, and whilst he was clearly one of the weaker 32 players, had still earn't his right to be there, also, I didn't see stephano getting "demolished" by innovation? I saw an innovation was was better prepared and superior in terms of tactical choice, but in terms of ability i think stephano held his own and more (see game 2 of the 2nd series)... everyone know's hypetrains are annoying, but anti-fan bias is just as irritating No, Stephano got 1-4'd. He won one game in 5, that is getting demolished. The 4 games Innovation won weren't even close. Stephano got STOMPED by Innovation, you can't twist that. Last GSL, 28 players ended up behind Bogus. All of them are bad? Stop that bullshit please. There is NOTHING wrong in loosing to Bogus, you can be a TOP LEVEL GSL player and loose against Bogus. Leenock is out too, MVP is out, Stephano is out....so what, means not that much.... All those players have a plethora of RESULTS in GSL, in KOREA, Stephano HAS NONE. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BACK YOU UP. I HAVE A 1-4 STOMP.
No, what you most likely have is a ban. MVP and Leenock also dropped out and both of those, at their peak, are Code S level players and multiple Code S winners.
All Stephano dropping out of Code S proves is that today, he wasn't good enough to stay in Code S. That's fine.
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Never seen so much of stephano, so im alittle sad that we dont get to see more of him in the GSL. but the one game he won in his third match was beutiful. also Bogus is very solid and smart player, its no shame to lose against and im left with impression that there is much potential in stephano, sadly its last wol gsl, maybe he arrived to late i think.
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On February 01 2013 22:15 Dodgin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:13 StarVe wrote:On February 01 2013 22:08 Dodgin wrote:Man, post match GSL LR fan wars are the best.  You think you're good, HUH? Well, I must say Shellshock totally did a way better job than you in this LR thread! There, I said it!  I didn't really do anything in this LR thread ;o I aspire to be like waxangel, have a majority of my posts in the thread be snarky comments.
You ain't getting away so easily, we need more flame wars.
But ya, snarky comments are fun.
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On February 01 2013 22:20 AxionSteel wrote:
This guy has been waiting for this moment for so long, slapping down those Stephano fanboyz. He's having a great time right now!
It's legitimately lolzish.
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United States97276 Posts
I go away to make the thread for tomorrow and there are like 300 new posts O_o
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On February 01 2013 22:21 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:15 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 22:11 Bjarne wrote:On February 01 2013 22:08 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 22:05 Vertigro wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. that's a little harsh? hack as far as i know qualified for code S fair and square? he deserved to be in that group, and whilst he was clearly one of the weaker 32 players, had still earn't his right to be there, also, I didn't see stephano getting "demolished" by innovation? I saw an innovation was was better prepared and superior in terms of tactical choice, but in terms of ability i think stephano held his own and more (see game 2 of the 2nd series)... everyone know's hypetrains are annoying, but anti-fan bias is just as irritating No, Stephano got 1-4'd. He won one game in 5, that is getting demolished. The 4 games Innovation won weren't even close. Stephano got STOMPED by Innovation, you can't twist that. Last GSL, 28 players ended up behind Bogus. All of them are bad? Stop that bullshit please. There is NOTHING wrong in loosing to Bogus, you can be a TOP LEVEL GSL player and loose against Bogus. Leenock is out too, MVP is out, Stephano is out....so what, means not that much.... All those players have a plethora of RESULTS in GSL, in KOREA, Stephano HAS NONE. YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BACK YOU UP. I HAVE A 1-4 STOMP. No, what you most likely have is a ban. MVP and Leenock also dropped out and both of those, at their peak, are Code S level players and multiple Code S winners. All Stephano dropping out of Code S proves is that today, he wasn't good enough to stay in Code S. That's fine.
Leenock has no GSL's man that's kind of his thing, he wrecks stuff like MLG and IPL but can't get it together in GSL.
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On February 01 2013 22:14 Shaddar wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:12 liberate71 wrote:On February 01 2013 22:08 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 22:05 Vertigro wrote:On February 01 2013 22:01 Flinch wrote:On February 01 2013 21:54 Awesomeness wrote:On February 01 2013 21:52 sitromit wrote:
Is the "Stephano could win GSL" nonsense finally over now? Can we just call him the best foreigner and leave it at that? Can we do that AND stop the "Stephano is not code s level" nonsense? Now that would be great. Maybe if you tell me what he proved tonight that made him Code S level? 2-0ing Hack, a player who ISN'T Code S level? Going 1-4 against Innovation, being read like a book and demolished, a player who IS Code S level? IF Stephano makes it back to Code S then I'll consider him it, until then, no, he's just the best foreigner. that's a little harsh? hack as far as i know qualified for code S fair and square? he deserved to be in that group, and whilst he was clearly one of the weaker 32 players, had still earn't his right to be there, also, I didn't see stephano getting "demolished" by innovation? I saw an innovation was was better prepared and superior in terms of tactical choice, but in terms of ability i think stephano held his own and more (see game 2 of the 2nd series)... everyone know's hypetrains are annoying, but anti-fan bias is just as irritating No, Stephano got 1-4'd. He won one game in 5, that is getting demolished. The 4 games Innovation won weren't even close. Stephano got STOMPED by Innovation, you can't twist that. Youre so god damn angry. If Stephano won that game, they would have been 2:3 but Stephano advancing. Who's the better player then? Would Stephano have been "beaten" by Innovation yet be in the RO16 instead? Yeah but that didn't happen. So...
so stephano got cheesed 3 out of 4 games, he didn't scout therefore lost. why is everybody trying to read too much into this?
players who had similar or worse score than Stephano this season:
Byul, Creator, Leenock, Sniper, Hyun, Yoda, Mvp, Ryung, Keen, Nestea
those players didn't get 1% of the retarded hate Stephano gets.
get the fuck out with the idiotic hate. yeah he lost, you hate his fanboys, ok. you hate him because of his fanboys?? then you're simply stupid (this wasn't aimed at shaddar, rather in general). he beat Bogus in a long macro game convincingly, but got punished for his lack of scouting, still proved he is no slouch. no need to be retarded about the matter
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On February 01 2013 22:22 bo1b wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:20 AxionSteel wrote:
This guy has been waiting for this moment for so long, slapping down those Stephano fanboyz. He's having a great time right now! It's legitimately lolzish.
i was feeling pretty down about stephano dropping.. but he cheered me right up "I HAVE STATZ"
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On February 01 2013 22:05 mijellin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2013 22:01 Morken wrote:
Hmm what kinda bothers me lately when watching Starcraft is that whenever someone uses a flank or a surround, he is considered a genius.
Why is it that after millenia of human warfare and now after years of pro-gaming in Starcraft, this still seems to be something extraordinary in this game? It's one of the simplest tactical moves (although a devastating one), and all historical battles basically revolved around avoiding to get flanked, yet flank yourself. This should also be standard in Starcraft, but all I see are people who clump up their units into a ball and walk straight onto an open field without any cover at all, just to get overwhelmed by a simple flank.
If this kind of army movement just hasn't caught on yet in Starcraft (since WoL is still somewhat young) I wouldn't care, but it highly annoys me that casters, analysts and all sorts of other people, who call themselves experts in strategy games, act like flanking a completely undefended army was a stroke of genius and something they have never seen before or never would have thought of themselves. Because it takes extra effort to pull off. Just like how good macro or creep spread is impressive in execution, not bc they thought to do it.
That's exactly my point. I tried to cover it with: "If this kind of army movement just hasn't caught on yet in Starcraft (since WoL is still somewhat young) I wouldn't care[...]" It was poorly put, I apologize.
What I meant, was the following: I know and of acknowledge that surrounding and flanking in Starcraft is difficult, because, like you said, it requires additional effort to execute. If it was the execution that was admired, I would be fine with it, but that is often not the case.
Today's matches were probably not a good example, they just reminded me of this. But I recall a lot of games where a player (usually Stephano) won a battle decisively because of a flank or surround and the reaction of the casters was always the same: "Omg! How did he do that? How did he not die? How did he beat this many units with his army? ... and so forth. And this "how did he do that" never sounded like "how was he able to execute this move so quickly and flawlessly?", it always sounded like "how the hell did that work just now? really, I have no clue what just happened..." And THIS bothers me. I don't know if some of them just play dumb, to make the players look good, or if they really don't have the slightest clue if it comes to tactics.
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Yeah people like that have no place calling themselves "fans" of SC2.
Oh well.
Seems that closes up the thread 
Taeja/Life/DRG Fighting :D
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Innovation was not simply "code S level", he was top4 of code S. So tell me how this works exactly, any player who loses games against Innovation is "OHMAGAD NOT CODE S LEVEL" ?
While Hack has been in code S, which probably mean he is "code S level". And he's been destroyed by Stephano.
So considering both those things, I wonder how can you end up saying "Stephano is not code S level". What i'd say is more among the line of "Stephano is not top code S level and would obviously not end up in RO8,4, runner up or winner"
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EPT
