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I expected the TvP games to have Battlecruisers and Motherships. These non Mvp and non Squirtle (although MKP and Mvp are friends and AcE and Squirtle are teammates) are disappointing me.
Nonetheless, congrats to AcE for joining his Protoss brothers, Parting and Squirtle, in Code S. Let's hope they don't all end up in one group.
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On May 25 2012 23:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 22:57 mikedebo wrote:pp. 104: Last game of the day ends pp. 105: Thread goes to complete shit  Welcome to every Live Report thread ever It's where we go from enjoying the games to theorycrafting and voicing our stupid opinions. Myself included x.x
Well I have never seen you balance whining actually. You're complaining about guys whining about imba, and trying to convince them not to whine. That's pretty much what I'm trying to do also, I don't remember any of my post whining about balance, it was much more reacting to someone whining. I think it's the case of a majority here, just 1 or 2% are true balance whiners and should absolutely be banned imo.
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United States23455 Posts
On May 25 2012 23:14 Benjamin99 wrote:
MMA loses his strategy coach and surdenly he cant win games anymore?
hmm
Ryu Won is considered one of the best.
And losing your personal coach that helped you with builds and strategies is the worst when the Up and Downs is simply, a lot of the time, whether you have a good build or not.
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On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 22:12 summerloud wrote:
terrans dominate GSL ever since it started
we finally get an even race distribution
much terran QQ ensues...
srsly wtf? If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why. THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN.
Yes it is! Though anytime a Terran or Zerg player wins they played great, if it's a fucking Protoss everyone cries imbalance forever it's fucking retarded.
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On May 25 2012 22:47 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 22:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:12 summerloud wrote:
terrans dominate GSL ever since it started
we finally get an even race distribution
much terran QQ ensues...
srsly wtf? If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why. THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN. So in your professional, caps lock opinion, how do we justify what players are the best if we don't have all of them playing on an equal playing field (i.e. racial balance)? Obviously, if more of the best players are playing Terran, that's a problem for the state of the game. It's a problem because there's a reason top players are flocking to that race. It has the highest skill ceiling. Why can't the other races have higher skill ceilings, allowing top players to consider playing as Zerg or Protoss as they enter in to SC2? You've assumed that the players who play as Terran automatically deserve to win because they're supposedly better or because they've picked the historically best race (according to the statistics). But as the game has become more and more balanced, we should expect the racial distribution to even out more. Terran in SC2 has the most skilled players and the highest number of skilled players because Terran in BW had the most skilled players develop during its lifetime, who then transferred over. This in combination with newer players picking terrans due to old BW terran idols like Boxer and Nada (marineking who played Protoss in BW for instance) influence it further. This in combination with terran having the highest skill cap allows for the already better players to improve at a more rapid pace compared to the zergs/protosses. A lot of the process is random. If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress. There are few enough people at the very top that individuals make big differences in statistics, and most of the good players happen to be terran. With this in mind, seeing Blizzard and the community constantly affect terran negatively, either by nerfs or map changes, instead of allowing for zergs and protosses to become better with practice just warps the game balance around to the point where you'll see balanced racial distributions when the better players are competing against bad odds. How do I know who's a good player and who isn't? I've watched this game since the beginning, as have most people, and it's easy to form conclusions about players and what calibre they are, and most of the good players so far have been terran. As far as protoss/zerg skill cap goes. I hope Blizzard will raise their skill cap to allow for better players to shine, but they don't. They're dumbing down terran to the same level at the moment, and it's hurting the game.
I vehemently disagree with much of what you wrote here. So strongly that I even took the time to use the word "vehemently".
1. I agree that many of the best BW players were Terran, but iloveoov and Nada and Boxer *in their primes* aren't playing SC2. MVP and MKP and MMA are. And perhaps the bonjwas were inspirational (to us all, really), but that doesn't make you necessarily win a pro tournament. Wanting to be like Boxer and triple bunker rush Yellow doesn't make you actually good enough to do anything.
2. Higher skill cap doesn't mean you improve faster than a race with a lower skill cap. It's a "cap". It means the race has a higher potential, a higher skill ceiling. The players haven't yet reached perfection in any race (even Protoss or Zerg, where the skill caps are arguably lower than Terran). Not even MKP microes perfectly.
3. If a lot of the process is "random", then it should even out and we shouldn't see much difference. We have an MVP and MKP on one side, a Nestea and DRG on another, and an MC and Parting on the third side. That's fine and dandy, but then how does that defend your argument that randomness somehow causes so much inflation of Terrans (both in success and in depth) in the GSL, especially thoughout its history? In all actuality, the Terran race started out stronger, and then they got nerfed when needed (which invited much whining from Terrans and much relief from Zergs and Protosses), and now things are pretty much balanced across the ladder and tournaments, and kind of getting there in the GSL.
4. "If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress." And MC once said that if he played as Terran, he'd have at least 4 GSL titles... and that was several seasons ago. You're posing a completely hypothetical and unfalsifiable claim. It's also nonsensical, and so I'm going to dismiss it because you can't support it.
That's pretty much everything I want to comment on, because the rest is trivial.
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On May 25 2012 22:50 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 22:44 Remi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:34 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:29 Remi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:15 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I do love it when people act as though the game must balanced if there's even racial distribution in Code S.
The idea that there must be identical numbers of equally skilled players in all three races is kind of funny. Well, compared to this season where 15/32 were Terrans (that's 1 away from half!), it's nice to have a season where it's not so Terran dominated. Players will need to be well rounded in their matchups to advance. While it is true, that terrans occupy third of code S spots, they are also race that has lost most spots in this season. I wouldn't actually be surprised, judging from tvp and tvz trends after latest patches, that if current state of game will continue, terrans will be the least represented race in code S after season or 2.  have been the most represented race for 2 years in the GSL (often times by a huge margin). If has to suffer through a few seasons of least representation for Blizz to balance patch, then so be it. The future is looking a lot brighter than the past (in terms of Code S race representation). If you believe that no race should be op (as you imply terrans was in 1st part of your post) then you should be against protoss or zerg being op even for "few" seasons if possible. If you're OK with someone being op (as your 2 part suggest) then why would you think terran domination was a bad thing to begin with? What you can't do is have your cake and eat it too. Here's what I'm getting at. 1. Balanced racial representation is good for the game. 2. GSL has better racial representation now then ever in its history. Then you posed a hypothesis that Terrans will be least represented race in 1 or 2 seasons. My 2nd argument is. 1. A few seasons of least representation is not that bad. Some race has to be least represented (barring ties), and if it's only a few months, then nothing to whine about. 2. 2 years of most representation (by large margins) is bad. 3. Therefore we are better off now than before.
oh hai logic what are you doing in an LR thread!?
(also, inb4 someone argues terrans are naturally more skilled lol)
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Man, MMA, come on! MLGs do not award Code S seeds anymore. Little disappointing to see him lose all his games. 
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On May 25 2012 23:16 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 23:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 25 2012 22:57 mikedebo wrote:pp. 104: Last game of the day ends pp. 105: Thread goes to complete shit Welcome to every Live Report thread ever It's where we go from enjoying the games to theorycrafting and voicing our stupid opinions. Myself included x.x Well I have never seen you balance whining actually. You're complaining about guys whining about imba, and trying to convince them not to whine. That's pretty much what I'm trying to do also, I don't remember any of my post whining about balance, it was much more reacting to someone whining. I think it's the case of a majority here, just 1 or 2% are true balance whiners and should absolutely be banned imo.
To be fair, one time (out of many), Terrans won a shitload of games in a single day (or maybe a bunch of Terrans made it through a bracket or something) and I took that silly looking "Aliens" meme guy and replaced the word with "Terrans" and I got a warning But I deserved it; I forgot that we shouldn't be posting memes.
But you're right that balance whining- especially in LR threads- is pretty lame. It's gonna happen after every set though, unfortunately.
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Did Ryung finally succeed MMA ?
+ Show Spoiler +
I hope so xD!
yay mkp!
ST protosses will be defeated by mvp again >.>?
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On May 25 2012 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 22:47 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:12 summerloud wrote:
terrans dominate GSL ever since it started
we finally get an even race distribution
much terran QQ ensues...
srsly wtf? If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why. THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN. So in your professional, caps lock opinion, how do we justify what players are the best if we don't have all of them playing on an equal playing field (i.e. racial balance)? Obviously, if more of the best players are playing Terran, that's a problem for the state of the game. It's a problem because there's a reason top players are flocking to that race. It has the highest skill ceiling. Why can't the other races have higher skill ceilings, allowing top players to consider playing as Zerg or Protoss as they enter in to SC2? You've assumed that the players who play as Terran automatically deserve to win because they're supposedly better or because they've picked the historically best race (according to the statistics). But as the game has become more and more balanced, we should expect the racial distribution to even out more. Terran in SC2 has the most skilled players and the highest number of skilled players because Terran in BW had the most skilled players develop during its lifetime, who then transferred over. This in combination with newer players picking terrans due to old BW terran idols like Boxer and Nada (marineking who played Protoss in BW for instance) influence it further. This in combination with terran having the highest skill cap allows for the already better players to improve at a more rapid pace compared to the zergs/protosses. A lot of the process is random. If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress. There are few enough people at the very top that individuals make big differences in statistics, and most of the good players happen to be terran. With this in mind, seeing Blizzard and the community constantly affect terran negatively, either by nerfs or map changes, instead of allowing for zergs and protosses to become better with practice just warps the game balance around to the point where you'll see balanced racial distributions when the better players are competing against bad odds. How do I know who's a good player and who isn't? I've watched this game since the beginning, as have most people, and it's easy to form conclusions about players and what calibre they are, and most of the good players so far have been terran. As far as protoss/zerg skill cap goes. I hope Blizzard will raise their skill cap to allow for better players to shine, but they don't. They're dumbing down terran to the same level at the moment, and it's hurting the game. I vehemently disagree with much of what you wrote here. So strongly that I even took the time to use the word "vehemently". 1. I agree that many of the best BW players were Terran, but iloveoov and Nada and Boxer *in their primes* aren't playing SC2. MVP and MKP and MMA are. And perhaps the bonjwas were inspirational (to us all, really), but that doesn't make you necessarily win a pro tournament. Wanting to be like Boxer and triple bunker rush Yellow doesn't make you actually good enough to do anything. 2. Higher skill cap doesn't mean you improve faster than a race with a lower skill cap. It's a "cap". It means the race has a higher potential, a higher skill ceiling. The players haven't yet reached perfection in any race (even Protoss or Zerg, where the skill caps are arguably lower than Terran). Not even MKP microes perfectly. 3. If a lot of the process is "random", then it should even out and we shouldn't see much difference. We have an MVP and MKP on one side, a Nestea and DRG on another, and an MC and Parting on the third side. That's fine and dandy, but then how does that defend your argument that randomness somehow causes so much inflation of Terrans (both in success and in depth) in the GSL, especially thoughout its history? In all actuality, the Terran race started out stronger, and then they got nerfed when needed (which invited much whining from Terrans and much relief from Zergs and Protosses), and now things are pretty much balanced across the ladder and tournaments, and kind of getting there in the GSL. 4. "If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress." And MC once said that if he played as Terran, he'd have at least 4 GSL titles... and that was several seasons ago. You're posing a completely hypothetical and unfalsifiable claim. It's also nonsensical, and so I'm going to dismiss it because you can't support it. That's pretty much everything I want to comment on, because the rest is trivial.
I have to get to work so I'll respond in a quick fashion to all your points.
1. While it doesn't make you win tournaments, it does make more people flock to the race, and the more people there are, the more talent there'll be there percentually, and more pros will end up forming. That's also not taking into account that more people means a faster evolving strategy for the race. Best players in BW made sure more people flocked to Terran in SC2 and that more pros in absolute numbers play terran, thus more victories etc.
2. A higher skill cap does mean that you improve "faster" than a race with a lower skill cap since it forces you to do more and thus become better. What do you think improves your mechanics the most for instance, attacking with a colossus deathball or deflecting it with a terran army. The same goes for tank leapfrogging and marine splitting. If we make the statement that terran has the most demanding mechancis it'd also mean that the pros playing terran improved at a faster rate since they had more of a challenge in front of them, and were less locked by the race.
3. A lot of the process is random, but it shouldn't necessarily deviate into the 1/1/1 ratios because of the point I made in 1. The numbers at the very top code S/A-level in Korea are simply to small for there to absolutely need to be a 1/1/1 ratio.
Also, if Terran started out stronger and had more people playing it, and now the representation is equal, it actually does point to the fact that terran has ended up becoming too weak, since they haven't lost the player count advantage over the other races. The fact that GSL code S is racially balanced is actually a sign that Blizzard does balance after player skill.
4. That was exactly my point. If MC was terran there'd be even more terran godlike players to shift the balance winratios and make Blizzard counterbalance terran further. You listed the top twos for each race, but for every great protoss/zerg player there are three terran ones in the long list of top players for each race.
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On May 25 2012 23:15 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 23:10 samurai80 wrote:On May 25 2012 22:58 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:56 samurai80 wrote:On May 25 2012 22:47 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:12 summerloud wrote:
terrans dominate GSL ever since it started
we finally get an even race distribution
much terran QQ ensues...
srsly wtf? If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why. THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN. So in your professional, caps lock opinion, how do we justify what players are the best if we don't have all of them playing on an equal playing field (i.e. racial balance)? Obviously, if more of the best players are playing Terran, that's a problem for the state of the game. It's a problem because there's a reason top players are flocking to that race. It has the highest skill ceiling. Why can't the other races have higher skill ceilings, allowing top players to consider playing as Zerg or Protoss as they enter in to SC2? You've assumed that the players who play as Terran automatically deserve to win because they're supposedly better or because they've picked the historically best race (according to the statistics). But as the game has become more and more balanced, we should expect the racial distribution to even out more. Terran in SC2 has the most skilled players and the highest number of skilled players because Terran in BW had the most skilled players develop during its lifetime, who then transferred over. This in combination with newer players picking terrans due to old BW terran idols like Boxer and Nada (marineking who played Protoss in BW for instance) influence it further. This in combination with terran having the highest skill cap allows for the already better players to improve at a more rapid pace compared to the zergs/protosses. A lot of the process is random. If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress. There are few enough people at the very top that individuals make big differences in statistics, and most of the good players happen to be terran. With this in mind, seeing Blizzard and the community constantly affect terran negatively, either by nerfs or map changes, instead of allowing for zergs and protosses to become better with practice just warps the game balance around to the point where you'll see balanced racial distributions when the better players are competing against bad odds. How do I know who's a good player and who isn't? I've watched this game since the beginning, as have most people, and it's easy to form conclusions about players and what calibre they are, and most of the good players so far have been terran. As far as protoss/zerg skill cap goes. I hope Blizzard will raise their skill cap to allow for better players to shine, but they don't. They're dumbing down terran to the same level at the moment, and it's hurting the game. On May 25 2012 22:41 Lightspeaker wrote:
There's a counter-argument founded on the exact point you're trying to make. Specifically:
Players do not HAVE to play any particular race. If the races were balanced you would expect even player distribution across races and even race distribution. When they're not balanced players gravitate towards the strongest races, especially when money is on the line. Terran was OP earlier in the Starcraft 2 cycle meaning many pros gravitated towards it and that allowed them to do better than their actual skill. Now that things are more balanced it's evening up again.
Note: I'm not saying whether or not I agree with that argument. My point is you cannot simply dismiss evidence, you have to add it all together for the overall picture. Statistically the PvT matchup is balanced based on the regularly monthly data about high-level progames posted up on these very forums. Factually Terrans are the most represented and always have been the most represented at the highest levels (Code S) and there are far more medals and championships for Terran than Protoss and Zerg combined.
So trying to argue that your complaints are justified is not backed up by any of the data or facts. Not to mention it's hard to feel pity for people crying about their race being underpowered when a player from said race just won Code S for the fourth time whilst suffering from a wrist injury. Thats not exactly a numerically significant example of course (because it's just one player), but theres a huge amount of irony there. If all races were balanced in the start there should theoretically be even racial distribution (more on that later), but that's not considering the history of the individual subject, i.e Starcraft 2, which is combined with Brood Wars strategy. In the absolute beginning of SC2s history when no one knew anything about the game there were still twice as many terrans as the other races. That alone should show that there are other factors other than racial balance in the equation. And if racial distribution is your indicator of racial balance, you should check nowhere else except for sc2ranks where terran in all leagues past silver in all regions is the lowest statistically demanding. Other than that, I don't understand why you see irony and balance whining anywhere. I'd be glad if terran was the least represented race as long as the game was actually being balanced properly, but as it is, it's not. Terran as a whole is being punished for them having the better players. I don't care about people feeling pity about me/terrans/something?. I want to make an argument and try to explain it to people so they can understand it from a new point of view that goes further than statistics that blizzard manipulates to look good. Alright, DarkPlasmaBall point of view looks pretty clear to me, if you don't understand it it means you're completely retarded. Or that you're wrong Considering the quality of your posts I'm happy that you don't agree with me as it means that I might be onto something right. On May 25 2012 22:57 FatalT wrote:On May 25 2012 22:50 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:44 Remi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:34 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:29 Remi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:15 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I do love it when people act as though the game must balanced if there's even racial distribution in Code S.
The idea that there must be identical numbers of equally skilled players in all three races is kind of funny. Well, compared to this season where 15/32 were Terrans (that's 1 away from half!), it's nice to have a season where it's not so Terran dominated. Players will need to be well rounded in their matchups to advance. While it is true, that terrans occupy third of code S spots, they are also race that has lost most spots in this season. I wouldn't actually be surprised, judging from tvp and tvz trends after latest patches, that if current state of game will continue, terrans will be the least represented race in code S after season or 2. have been the most represented race for 2 years in the GSL (often times by a huge margin). If has to suffer through a few seasons of least representation for Blizz to balance patch, then so be it. The future is looking a lot brighter than the past (in terms of Code S race representation). If you believe that no race should be op (as you imply terrans was in 1st part of your post) then you should be against protoss or zerg being op even for "few" seasons if possible. If you're OK with someone being op (as your 2 part suggest) then why would you think terran domination was a bad thing to begin with? What you can't do is have your cake and eat it too. Here's what I'm getting at. 1. Balanced racial representation is good for the game. 2. GSL has better racial representation now then ever in its history. Then you posed a hypothesis that Terrans will be least represented race in 1 or 2 seasons. My 2nd argument is. 1. A few seasons of least representation is not that bad. Some race has to be least represented (barring ties), and if it's only a few months, then nothing to whine about. 2. 2 years of most representation (by large margins) is bad. 3. Therefore we are better off now than before. Your in favour of laws that requires boards to have a distrubution of xx% of either sex? Even if that means leaving out someone really qualified? Perfect racial distrubution in the GSL shouldn't be the goal for someone who is balancing the game. The best players should get through(not saying Ace didn't deserve to get to Code S). This, pretty much. People are so hung up on statistical equivalents that they stop to consider the individual players. It's pretty much the same as drafting and equal number of women and men into every business because it looks good statistically, while pissing on their individual achievements. Well I don't care what you think about the quality of my posts as well as you seems not to care about what I am thinking. But still this applies : + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 22:45 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 22:37 Poopi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:31 TeeTS wrote:Hey Terran's aren't alowed to complain about balance! MVP won code s guys! That Squirtle just started playing when he was 0-3 down has to be put aside here, because MVP WON CODE S, so everything in this matchup is fine, isn't it?  Funny thing people don't realize is that GSL finals can't tell shit about balance because players are under so much pressure that often who will win mindgames/deal better with the pressure will end up winning. That's why Squirtle got trashed at first 3-0 despite being (imo) better than Mvp in the match-up. I'm sad that BB didn't get through but if AcE can play good in code S too it would be cool, ST protosses don't fail to deliver. Don't you realize you're in a thread about GSL ?? Do your balance whine in another thread if you think GSL can't tell shit about balance. Don't u realize there are more terrans than protoss in both code S and code A ?? Don't you realize how better the terrans' results were ?? Don't you realize protoss are in no way OP in GSL ? So then why do you whine about protoss in A GSL THREAD ?? Don't you realize how annoying it is ? Don't you realize how indecent it is ? Don't you realize why you could (and should) be banned for this ?? I mean I don't even want to have a debate about balance, I am complaining about those terrans who always balance whine IN GSL THREADS, where terrans are actually dominating. I wouldn't have any problem if you were talking about yourself playing on the ladder, but you should then do it in the appropriate threads. But here you are doing that in a GSL thread man, you can be banned for it and there is a reason. And moreover it is indecent as terrans win more in GSL. At least you should be able to understand that. First of all, balance whining has been part of LRs since the beginning. Protosses and zergs have done it for WAY longer than terrans have done it, in case you weren't here in the start. Added to that. I'm actually discussing the racial distributions which were listed in this LR and how to read them. Balance whining would imply that I had a personal agenda, but I don't care about specific races being stronger or weaker than the other. I want the game to be as good as it simply can be, and right now it's going in the wrong way, and a lot of people don't see it. If I was truly balance whining I would have bitched about MKP losing to Ace, in what was a classic show of the lategame TvP problems, but I didn't. I'm strictly speaking of racial distributions in the GSL which is part of this thread. It's simply related to blizzards balancing process, but there's a lot more to it than that.
First of all, balance whining has been part of LRs since the beginning.
That doesn't mean it is legitimate to do it in LRs. That's actually a problem pointed out very often here and I really think it should be banned.
Protosses and zergs have done it for WAY longer than terrans have done it, in case you weren't here in the start. [EDIT/]Well even if it was the case[/EDIT] I'm never gonna say they were right. But still, there is one factor making GSL LR thread balance whine even worse when it's about terrans, it's that the terran race has almost always had good results in GSL, at least decent, while protosses and zergs did actually have some bad periods. In no way it can justify to balance whine in a LR thread, but still, we can have some compassion and we might be slightly more indulgent with them considering they were really disappointed at this moment.
But the guys like you balance whining about terrans don't even have this excuse, and more than that, it's indecent/disgusting, it pisses other races fans off. But again don't get me wrong, I am not saying balance whine in GSL threads is ok if your race is less represented in GSL, that's not what I am saying. Balance whiners for all races are all almost equally wrong, I'm just saying the protoss and zergs might be very slightly less wrong. I do think all balance whiners should be banned. And I do understand it's hard to do that for the admins here.
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On May 25 2012 23:21 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 22:50 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:44 Remi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:34 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:29 Remi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:15 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I do love it when people act as though the game must balanced if there's even racial distribution in Code S.
The idea that there must be identical numbers of equally skilled players in all three races is kind of funny. Well, compared to this season where 15/32 were Terrans (that's 1 away from half!), it's nice to have a season where it's not so Terran dominated. Players will need to be well rounded in their matchups to advance. While it is true, that terrans occupy third of code S spots, they are also race that has lost most spots in this season. I wouldn't actually be surprised, judging from tvp and tvz trends after latest patches, that if current state of game will continue, terrans will be the least represented race in code S after season or 2. have been the most represented race for 2 years in the GSL (often times by a huge margin). If has to suffer through a few seasons of least representation for Blizz to balance patch, then so be it. The future is looking a lot brighter than the past (in terms of Code S race representation). If you believe that no race should be op (as you imply terrans was in 1st part of your post) then you should be against protoss or zerg being op even for "few" seasons if possible. If you're OK with someone being op (as your 2 part suggest) then why would you think terran domination was a bad thing to begin with? What you can't do is have your cake and eat it too. Here's what I'm getting at. 1. Balanced racial representation is good for the game. 2. GSL has better racial representation now then ever in its history. Then you posed a hypothesis that Terrans will be least represented race in 1 or 2 seasons. My 2nd argument is. 1. A few seasons of least representation is not that bad. Some race has to be least represented (barring ties), and if it's only a few months, then nothing to whine about. 2. 2 years of most representation (by large margins) is bad. 3. Therefore we are better off now than before. oh hai logic what are you doing in an LR thread!? (also, inb4 someone argues terrans are naturally more skilled lol)
I can't see how you deny it; it's genetic. It's just in certain people's DNA to a) be really good at Starcraft and b) pick Terran.
The fact that protoss and zerg players are doing well against their genetically superior opponents is the final proof that Blizzard has nerfed terran too far.
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On May 25 2012 23:36 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 23:15 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 23:10 samurai80 wrote:On May 25 2012 22:58 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:56 samurai80 wrote:On May 25 2012 22:47 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:12 summerloud wrote:
terrans dominate GSL ever since it started
we finally get an even race distribution
much terran QQ ensues...
srsly wtf? If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why. THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN. So in your professional, caps lock opinion, how do we justify what players are the best if we don't have all of them playing on an equal playing field (i.e. racial balance)? Obviously, if more of the best players are playing Terran, that's a problem for the state of the game. It's a problem because there's a reason top players are flocking to that race. It has the highest skill ceiling. Why can't the other races have higher skill ceilings, allowing top players to consider playing as Zerg or Protoss as they enter in to SC2? You've assumed that the players who play as Terran automatically deserve to win because they're supposedly better or because they've picked the historically best race (according to the statistics). But as the game has become more and more balanced, we should expect the racial distribution to even out more. Terran in SC2 has the most skilled players and the highest number of skilled players because Terran in BW had the most skilled players develop during its lifetime, who then transferred over. This in combination with newer players picking terrans due to old BW terran idols like Boxer and Nada (marineking who played Protoss in BW for instance) influence it further. This in combination with terran having the highest skill cap allows for the already better players to improve at a more rapid pace compared to the zergs/protosses. A lot of the process is random. If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress. There are few enough people at the very top that individuals make big differences in statistics, and most of the good players happen to be terran. With this in mind, seeing Blizzard and the community constantly affect terran negatively, either by nerfs or map changes, instead of allowing for zergs and protosses to become better with practice just warps the game balance around to the point where you'll see balanced racial distributions when the better players are competing against bad odds. How do I know who's a good player and who isn't? I've watched this game since the beginning, as have most people, and it's easy to form conclusions about players and what calibre they are, and most of the good players so far have been terran. As far as protoss/zerg skill cap goes. I hope Blizzard will raise their skill cap to allow for better players to shine, but they don't. They're dumbing down terran to the same level at the moment, and it's hurting the game. On May 25 2012 22:41 Lightspeaker wrote:
There's a counter-argument founded on the exact point you're trying to make. Specifically:
Players do not HAVE to play any particular race. If the races were balanced you would expect even player distribution across races and even race distribution. When they're not balanced players gravitate towards the strongest races, especially when money is on the line. Terran was OP earlier in the Starcraft 2 cycle meaning many pros gravitated towards it and that allowed them to do better than their actual skill. Now that things are more balanced it's evening up again.
Note: I'm not saying whether or not I agree with that argument. My point is you cannot simply dismiss evidence, you have to add it all together for the overall picture. Statistically the PvT matchup is balanced based on the regularly monthly data about high-level progames posted up on these very forums. Factually Terrans are the most represented and always have been the most represented at the highest levels (Code S) and there are far more medals and championships for Terran than Protoss and Zerg combined.
So trying to argue that your complaints are justified is not backed up by any of the data or facts. Not to mention it's hard to feel pity for people crying about their race being underpowered when a player from said race just won Code S for the fourth time whilst suffering from a wrist injury. Thats not exactly a numerically significant example of course (because it's just one player), but theres a huge amount of irony there. If all races were balanced in the start there should theoretically be even racial distribution (more on that later), but that's not considering the history of the individual subject, i.e Starcraft 2, which is combined with Brood Wars strategy. In the absolute beginning of SC2s history when no one knew anything about the game there were still twice as many terrans as the other races. That alone should show that there are other factors other than racial balance in the equation. And if racial distribution is your indicator of racial balance, you should check nowhere else except for sc2ranks where terran in all leagues past silver in all regions is the lowest statistically demanding. Other than that, I don't understand why you see irony and balance whining anywhere. I'd be glad if terran was the least represented race as long as the game was actually being balanced properly, but as it is, it's not. Terran as a whole is being punished for them having the better players. I don't care about people feeling pity about me/terrans/something?. I want to make an argument and try to explain it to people so they can understand it from a new point of view that goes further than statistics that blizzard manipulates to look good. Alright, DarkPlasmaBall point of view looks pretty clear to me, if you don't understand it it means you're completely retarded. Or that you're wrong Considering the quality of your posts I'm happy that you don't agree with me as it means that I might be onto something right. On May 25 2012 22:57 FatalT wrote:On May 25 2012 22:50 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:44 Remi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:34 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:29 Remi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:
[quote]
Well, compared to this season where 15/32 were Terrans (that's 1 away from half!), it's nice to have a season where it's not so Terran dominated. Players will need to be well rounded in their matchups to advance. While it is true, that terrans occupy third of code S spots, they are also race that has lost most spots in this season. I wouldn't actually be surprised, judging from tvp and tvz trends after latest patches, that if current state of game will continue, terrans will be the least represented race in code S after season or 2. have been the most represented race for 2 years in the GSL (often times by a huge margin). If has to suffer through a few seasons of least representation for Blizz to balance patch, then so be it. The future is looking a lot brighter than the past (in terms of Code S race representation). If you believe that no race should be op (as you imply terrans was in 1st part of your post) then you should be against protoss or zerg being op even for "few" seasons if possible. If you're OK with someone being op (as your 2 part suggest) then why would you think terran domination was a bad thing to begin with? What you can't do is have your cake and eat it too. Here's what I'm getting at. 1. Balanced racial representation is good for the game. 2. GSL has better racial representation now then ever in its history. Then you posed a hypothesis that Terrans will be least represented race in 1 or 2 seasons. My 2nd argument is. 1. A few seasons of least representation is not that bad. Some race has to be least represented (barring ties), and if it's only a few months, then nothing to whine about. 2. 2 years of most representation (by large margins) is bad. 3. Therefore we are better off now than before. Your in favour of laws that requires boards to have a distrubution of xx% of either sex? Even if that means leaving out someone really qualified? Perfect racial distrubution in the GSL shouldn't be the goal for someone who is balancing the game. The best players should get through(not saying Ace didn't deserve to get to Code S). This, pretty much. People are so hung up on statistical equivalents that they stop to consider the individual players. It's pretty much the same as drafting and equal number of women and men into every business because it looks good statistically, while pissing on their individual achievements. Well I don't care what you think about the quality of my posts as well as you seems not to care about what I am thinking. But still this applies : + Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 22:45 samurai80 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 22:37 Poopi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:31 TeeTS wrote:Hey Terran's aren't alowed to complain about balance! MVP won code s guys! That Squirtle just started playing when he was 0-3 down has to be put aside here, because MVP WON CODE S, so everything in this matchup is fine, isn't it? Funny thing people don't realize is that GSL finals can't tell shit about balance because players are under so much pressure that often who will win mindgames/deal better with the pressure will end up winning. That's why Squirtle got trashed at first 3-0 despite being (imo) better than Mvp in the match-up. I'm sad that BB didn't get through but if AcE can play good in code S too it would be cool, ST protosses don't fail to deliver. Don't you realize you're in a thread about GSL ?? Do your balance whine in another thread if you think GSL can't tell shit about balance. Don't u realize there are more terrans than protoss in both code S and code A ?? Don't you realize how better the terrans' results were ?? Don't you realize protoss are in no way OP in GSL ? So then why do you whine about protoss in A GSL THREAD ?? Don't you realize how annoying it is ? Don't you realize how indecent it is ? Don't you realize why you could (and should) be banned for this ?? I mean I don't even want to have a debate about balance, I am complaining about those terrans who always balance whine IN GSL THREADS, where terrans are actually dominating. I wouldn't have any problem if you were talking about yourself playing on the ladder, but you should then do it in the appropriate threads. But here you are doing that in a GSL thread man, you can be banned for it and there is a reason. And moreover it is indecent as terrans win more in GSL. At least you should be able to understand that. First of all, balance whining has been part of LRs since the beginning. Protosses and zergs have done it for WAY longer than terrans have done it, in case you weren't here in the start. Added to that. I'm actually discussing the racial distributions which were listed in this LR and how to read them. Balance whining would imply that I had a personal agenda, but I don't care about specific races being stronger or weaker than the other. I want the game to be as good as it simply can be, and right now it's going in the wrong way, and a lot of people don't see it. If I was truly balance whining I would have bitched about MKP losing to Ace, in what was a classic show of the lategame TvP problems, but I didn't. I'm strictly speaking of racial distributions in the GSL which is part of this thread. It's simply related to blizzards balancing process, but there's a lot more to it than that. That doesn't mean it is legitimate to do it in LRs. That's actually a problem pointed out very often here and I really think it should be banned. Show nested quote +Protosses and zergs have done it for WAY longer than terrans have done it, in case you weren't here in the start. And I'm never gonna say they were right. But still, there is one factor making GSL LR thread balance whine even worse when it's about terrans, it's that the terran race has almost always had good results in GSL, at least decent, while protosses and zergs did actually have some bad periods. In no way it can justify to balance whine in a LR thread, but still, we can have some compassion and we might be slightly more indulgent with them considering they were really disappointed at this moment. But the guys like you balance whining about terrans don't even have this excuse, and more than that, it's indecent/disgusting, it pisses other races fans off. But again don't get me wrong, I am not saying balance whine in GSL threads is ok if your race is less represented in GSL, that's not what I am saying. Balance whiners for all races are all almost equally wrong, I'm just saying the protoss and zergs might be very slightly less wrong. I do think all balance whiners should be banned. And I do understand it's hard to do that for the admins here.
balancing based only on results rather than actual gameplay is one of the most stupid things you can do in that regard. And discussing balance only based on results goes the same way. So your point is completely irrelevant.
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Wow... Did not expect those results right now :O
MMA losing 0-3? That's pretty crazy. Glad to see MKP got through ♥
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On May 25 2012 23:44 The KY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 23:21 -TesteR- wrote:On May 25 2012 22:50 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:44 Remi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:34 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:29 Remi wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:On May 25 2012 22:15 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I do love it when people act as though the game must balanced if there's even racial distribution in Code S.
The idea that there must be identical numbers of equally skilled players in all three races is kind of funny. Well, compared to this season where 15/32 were Terrans (that's 1 away from half!), it's nice to have a season where it's not so Terran dominated. Players will need to be well rounded in their matchups to advance. While it is true, that terrans occupy third of code S spots, they are also race that has lost most spots in this season. I wouldn't actually be surprised, judging from tvp and tvz trends after latest patches, that if current state of game will continue, terrans will be the least represented race in code S after season or 2. have been the most represented race for 2 years in the GSL (often times by a huge margin). If has to suffer through a few seasons of least representation for Blizz to balance patch, then so be it. The future is looking a lot brighter than the past (in terms of Code S race representation). If you believe that no race should be op (as you imply terrans was in 1st part of your post) then you should be against protoss or zerg being op even for "few" seasons if possible. If you're OK with someone being op (as your 2 part suggest) then why would you think terran domination was a bad thing to begin with? What you can't do is have your cake and eat it too. Here's what I'm getting at. 1. Balanced racial representation is good for the game. 2. GSL has better racial representation now then ever in its history. Then you posed a hypothesis that Terrans will be least represented race in 1 or 2 seasons. My 2nd argument is. 1. A few seasons of least representation is not that bad. Some race has to be least represented (barring ties), and if it's only a few months, then nothing to whine about. 2. 2 years of most representation (by large margins) is bad. 3. Therefore we are better off now than before. oh hai logic what are you doing in an LR thread!? (also, inb4 someone argues terrans are naturally more skilled lol) I can't see how you deny it; it's genetic. It's just in certain people's DNA to a) be really good at Starcraft and b) pick Terran. The fact that protoss and zerg players are doing well against their genetically superior opponents is the final proof that Blizzard has nerfed terran too far.
Most white dudes pick P/Z , a lot more koreans pick terran. You're right it's been solved.
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On May 25 2012 23:33 Dalavita wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 25 2012 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 22:47 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:12 summerloud wrote:
terrans dominate GSL ever since it started
we finally get an even race distribution
much terran QQ ensues...
srsly wtf? If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why. THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN. So in your professional, caps lock opinion, how do we justify what players are the best if we don't have all of them playing on an equal playing field (i.e. racial balance)? Obviously, if more of the best players are playing Terran, that's a problem for the state of the game. It's a problem because there's a reason top players are flocking to that race. It has the highest skill ceiling. Why can't the other races have higher skill ceilings, allowing top players to consider playing as Zerg or Protoss as they enter in to SC2? You've assumed that the players who play as Terran automatically deserve to win because they're supposedly better or because they've picked the historically best race (according to the statistics). But as the game has become more and more balanced, we should expect the racial distribution to even out more. Terran in SC2 has the most skilled players and the highest number of skilled players because Terran in BW had the most skilled players develop during its lifetime, who then transferred over. This in combination with newer players picking terrans due to old BW terran idols like Boxer and Nada (marineking who played Protoss in BW for instance) influence it further. This in combination with terran having the highest skill cap allows for the already better players to improve at a more rapid pace compared to the zergs/protosses. A lot of the process is random. If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress. There are few enough people at the very top that individuals make big differences in statistics, and most of the good players happen to be terran. With this in mind, seeing Blizzard and the community constantly affect terran negatively, either by nerfs or map changes, instead of allowing for zergs and protosses to become better with practice just warps the game balance around to the point where you'll see balanced racial distributions when the better players are competing against bad odds. How do I know who's a good player and who isn't? I've watched this game since the beginning, as have most people, and it's easy to form conclusions about players and what calibre they are, and most of the good players so far have been terran. As far as protoss/zerg skill cap goes. I hope Blizzard will raise their skill cap to allow for better players to shine, but they don't. They're dumbing down terran to the same level at the moment, and it's hurting the game. I vehemently disagree with much of what you wrote here. So strongly that I even took the time to use the word "vehemently". 1. I agree that many of the best BW players were Terran, but iloveoov and Nada and Boxer *in their primes* aren't playing SC2. MVP and MKP and MMA are. And perhaps the bonjwas were inspirational (to us all, really), but that doesn't make you necessarily win a pro tournament. Wanting to be like Boxer and triple bunker rush Yellow doesn't make you actually good enough to do anything. 2. Higher skill cap doesn't mean you improve faster than a race with a lower skill cap. It's a "cap". It means the race has a higher potential, a higher skill ceiling. The players haven't yet reached perfection in any race (even Protoss or Zerg, where the skill caps are arguably lower than Terran). Not even MKP microes perfectly. 3. If a lot of the process is "random", then it should even out and we shouldn't see much difference. We have an MVP and MKP on one side, a Nestea and DRG on another, and an MC and Parting on the third side. That's fine and dandy, but then how does that defend your argument that randomness somehow causes so much inflation of Terrans (both in success and in depth) in the GSL, especially thoughout its history? In all actuality, the Terran race started out stronger, and then they got nerfed when needed (which invited much whining from Terrans and much relief from Zergs and Protosses), and now things are pretty much balanced across the ladder and tournaments, and kind of getting there in the GSL. 4. "If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress." And MC once said that if he played as Terran, he'd have at least 4 GSL titles... and that was several seasons ago. You're posing a completely hypothetical and unfalsifiable claim. It's also nonsensical, and so I'm going to dismiss it because you can't support it. That's pretty much everything I want to comment on, because the rest is trivial. I have to get to work so I'll respond in a quick fashion to all your points. 1. While it doesn't make you win tournaments, it does make more people flock to the race, and the more people there are, the more talent there'll be there percentually, and more pros will end up forming. That's also not taking into account that more people means a faster evolving strategy for the race. Best players in BW made sure more people flocked to Terran in SC2 and that more pros in absolute numbers play terran, thus more victories etc. 2. A higher skill cap does mean that you improve "faster" than a race with a lower skill cap since it forces you to do more and thus become better. What do you think improves your mechanics the most for instance, attacking with a colossus deathball or deflecting it with a terran army. The same goes for tank leapfrogging and marine splitting. If we make the statement that terran has the most demanding mechancis it'd also mean that the pros playing terran improved at a faster rate since they had more of a challenge in front of them, and were less locked by the race. 3. A lot of the process is random, but it shouldn't necessarily deviate into the 1/1/1 ratios because of the point I made in 1. The numbers at the very top code S/A-level in Korea are simply to small for there to absolutely need to be a 1/1/1 ratio. Also, if Terran started out stronger and had more people playing it, and now the representation is equal, it actually does point to the fact that terran has ended up becoming too weak, since they haven't lost the player count advantage over the other races. The fact that GSL code S is racially balanced is actually a sign that Blizzard does balance after player skill. 4. That was exactly my point. If MC was terran there'd be even more terran godlike players to shift the balance winratios and make Blizzard counterbalance terran further. You listed the top twos for each race, but for every great protoss/zerg player there are three terran ones in the long list of top players for each race.
Let's see. There's not a shred of evidence for 1 and 2, and your argument for 3 relies on 1. (Moreover, while there are only 32 players in code S, statistics over time are still valid.)
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On May 25 2012 23:33 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 25 2012 22:47 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:12 summerloud wrote:
terrans dominate GSL ever since it started
we finally get an even race distribution
much terran QQ ensues...
srsly wtf? If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why. THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN. So in your professional, caps lock opinion, how do we justify what players are the best if we don't have all of them playing on an equal playing field (i.e. racial balance)? Obviously, if more of the best players are playing Terran, that's a problem for the state of the game. It's a problem because there's a reason top players are flocking to that race. It has the highest skill ceiling. Why can't the other races have higher skill ceilings, allowing top players to consider playing as Zerg or Protoss as they enter in to SC2? You've assumed that the players who play as Terran automatically deserve to win because they're supposedly better or because they've picked the historically best race (according to the statistics). But as the game has become more and more balanced, we should expect the racial distribution to even out more. Terran in SC2 has the most skilled players and the highest number of skilled players because Terran in BW had the most skilled players develop during its lifetime, who then transferred over. This in combination with newer players picking terrans due to old BW terran idols like Boxer and Nada (marineking who played Protoss in BW for instance) influence it further. This in combination with terran having the highest skill cap allows for the already better players to improve at a more rapid pace compared to the zergs/protosses. A lot of the process is random. If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress. There are few enough people at the very top that individuals make big differences in statistics, and most of the good players happen to be terran. With this in mind, seeing Blizzard and the community constantly affect terran negatively, either by nerfs or map changes, instead of allowing for zergs and protosses to become better with practice just warps the game balance around to the point where you'll see balanced racial distributions when the better players are competing against bad odds. How do I know who's a good player and who isn't? I've watched this game since the beginning, as have most people, and it's easy to form conclusions about players and what calibre they are, and most of the good players so far have been terran. As far as protoss/zerg skill cap goes. I hope Blizzard will raise their skill cap to allow for better players to shine, but they don't. They're dumbing down terran to the same level at the moment, and it's hurting the game. I vehemently disagree with much of what you wrote here. So strongly that I even took the time to use the word "vehemently". 1. I agree that many of the best BW players were Terran, but iloveoov and Nada and Boxer *in their primes* aren't playing SC2. MVP and MKP and MMA are. And perhaps the bonjwas were inspirational (to us all, really), but that doesn't make you necessarily win a pro tournament. Wanting to be like Boxer and triple bunker rush Yellow doesn't make you actually good enough to do anything. 2. Higher skill cap doesn't mean you improve faster than a race with a lower skill cap. It's a "cap". It means the race has a higher potential, a higher skill ceiling. The players haven't yet reached perfection in any race (even Protoss or Zerg, where the skill caps are arguably lower than Terran). Not even MKP microes perfectly. 3. If a lot of the process is "random", then it should even out and we shouldn't see much difference. We have an MVP and MKP on one side, a Nestea and DRG on another, and an MC and Parting on the third side. That's fine and dandy, but then how does that defend your argument that randomness somehow causes so much inflation of Terrans (both in success and in depth) in the GSL, especially thoughout its history? In all actuality, the Terran race started out stronger, and then they got nerfed when needed (which invited much whining from Terrans and much relief from Zergs and Protosses), and now things are pretty much balanced across the ladder and tournaments, and kind of getting there in the GSL. 4. "If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress." And MC once said that if he played as Terran, he'd have at least 4 GSL titles... and that was several seasons ago. You're posing a completely hypothetical and unfalsifiable claim. It's also nonsensical, and so I'm going to dismiss it because you can't support it. That's pretty much everything I want to comment on, because the rest is trivial. I have to get to work so I'll respond in a quick fashion to all your points. 1. While it doesn't make you win tournaments, it does make more people flock to the race, and the more people there are, the more talent there'll be there percentually, and more pros will end up forming. That's also not taking into account that more people means a faster evolving strategy for the race. Best players in BW made sure more people flocked to Terran in SC2 and that more pros in absolute numbers play terran, thus more victories etc. 2. A higher skill cap does mean that you improve "faster" than a race with a lower skill cap since it forces you to do more and thus become better. What do you think improves your mechanics the most for instance, attacking with a colossus deathball or deflecting it with a terran army. The same goes for tank leapfrogging and marine splitting. If we make the statement that terran has the most demanding mechancis it'd also mean that the pros playing terran improved at a faster rate since they had more of a challenge in front of them, and were less locked by the race. 3. A lot of the process is random, but it shouldn't necessarily deviate into the 1/1/1 ratios because of the point I made in 1. The numbers at the very top code S/A-level in Korea are simply to small for there to absolutely need to be a 1/1/1 ratio. Also, if Terran started out stronger and had more people playing it, and now the representation is equal, it actually does point to the fact that terran has ended up becoming too weak, since they haven't lost the player count advantage over the other races. The fact that GSL code S is racially balanced is actually a sign that Blizzard does balance after player skill. 4. That was exactly my point. If MC was terran there'd be even more terran godlike players to shift the balance winratios and make Blizzard counterbalance terran further. You listed the top twos for each race, but for every great protoss/zerg player there are three terran ones in the long list of top players for each race.
1. So all the Bisu and Jaedong fans just aren't fanatical enough, but the Flash ones are? How many SC2 Terran strategies were proposed in the Nada's Body thread? Quite simply, liking BW pros doesn't mean success in SC2. That's a non sequitur. Maybe that's the reason why the newer pros in Brood War joined the race they did (to emulate their heroes of the same game), but SC2 is a different (albeit similar) game. And so you're simply speculating. Which is fine, but you have no evidence to back up your claim, so don't word it such that it's a fact, rather than your opinion.
2. All three races have their own challenges to overcome in all match-ups, and even the best players occasionally get sloppy or perform poorly from time-to-time. You've provided no evidence to substantiate your claim that Terrans improve the fastest, so- again- you're merely speculating.
3. So the sample size is too small for my counterargument, but it's fine for your initial argument? You can't have it both ways.
4. If MC was Terran, then there would be zero GSL Protoss wins and I would be even more of a sad zealot. And the point is: If more of the top Zergs or top Protosses were actually Terran players, there would be a reason that they found Terran more appealing than the other races. And it's not because they want to be the underdog. And now we've come full circle.
Enjoy your work; I hope you have a wonderful day
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On May 25 2012 23:33 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2012 23:21 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 25 2012 22:47 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:On May 25 2012 22:12 summerloud wrote:
terrans dominate GSL ever since it started
we finally get an even race distribution
much terran QQ ensues...
srsly wtf? If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why. THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN. So in your professional, caps lock opinion, how do we justify what players are the best if we don't have all of them playing on an equal playing field (i.e. racial balance)? Obviously, if more of the best players are playing Terran, that's a problem for the state of the game. It's a problem because there's a reason top players are flocking to that race. It has the highest skill ceiling. Why can't the other races have higher skill ceilings, allowing top players to consider playing as Zerg or Protoss as they enter in to SC2? You've assumed that the players who play as Terran automatically deserve to win because they're supposedly better or because they've picked the historically best race (according to the statistics). But as the game has become more and more balanced, we should expect the racial distribution to even out more. Terran in SC2 has the most skilled players and the highest number of skilled players because Terran in BW had the most skilled players develop during its lifetime, who then transferred over. This in combination with newer players picking terrans due to old BW terran idols like Boxer and Nada (marineking who played Protoss in BW for instance) influence it further. This in combination with terran having the highest skill cap allows for the already better players to improve at a more rapid pace compared to the zergs/protosses. A lot of the process is random. If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress. There are few enough people at the very top that individuals make big differences in statistics, and most of the good players happen to be terran. With this in mind, seeing Blizzard and the community constantly affect terran negatively, either by nerfs or map changes, instead of allowing for zergs and protosses to become better with practice just warps the game balance around to the point where you'll see balanced racial distributions when the better players are competing against bad odds. How do I know who's a good player and who isn't? I've watched this game since the beginning, as have most people, and it's easy to form conclusions about players and what calibre they are, and most of the good players so far have been terran. As far as protoss/zerg skill cap goes. I hope Blizzard will raise their skill cap to allow for better players to shine, but they don't. They're dumbing down terran to the same level at the moment, and it's hurting the game. I vehemently disagree with much of what you wrote here. So strongly that I even took the time to use the word "vehemently". 1. I agree that many of the best BW players were Terran, but iloveoov and Nada and Boxer *in their primes* aren't playing SC2. MVP and MKP and MMA are. And perhaps the bonjwas were inspirational (to us all, really), but that doesn't make you necessarily win a pro tournament. Wanting to be like Boxer and triple bunker rush Yellow doesn't make you actually good enough to do anything. 2. Higher skill cap doesn't mean you improve faster than a race with a lower skill cap. It's a "cap". It means the race has a higher potential, a higher skill ceiling. The players haven't yet reached perfection in any race (even Protoss or Zerg, where the skill caps are arguably lower than Terran). Not even MKP microes perfectly. 3. If a lot of the process is "random", then it should even out and we shouldn't see much difference. We have an MVP and MKP on one side, a Nestea and DRG on another, and an MC and Parting on the third side. That's fine and dandy, but then how does that defend your argument that randomness somehow causes so much inflation of Terrans (both in success and in depth) in the GSL, especially thoughout its history? In all actuality, the Terran race started out stronger, and then they got nerfed when needed (which invited much whining from Terrans and much relief from Zergs and Protosses), and now things are pretty much balanced across the ladder and tournaments, and kind of getting there in the GSL. 4. "If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress." And MC once said that if he played as Terran, he'd have at least 4 GSL titles... and that was several seasons ago. You're posing a completely hypothetical and unfalsifiable claim. It's also nonsensical, and so I'm going to dismiss it because you can't support it. That's pretty much everything I want to comment on, because the rest is trivial. I have to get to work so I'll respond in a quick fashion to all your points. 1. While it doesn't make you win tournaments, it does make more people flock to the race, and the more people there are, the more talent there'll be there percentually, and more pros will end up forming. That's also not taking into account that more people means a faster evolving strategy for the race. Best players in BW made sure more people flocked to Terran in SC2 and that more pros in absolute numbers play terran, thus more victories etc. 2. A higher skill cap does mean that you improve "faster" than a race with a lower skill cap since it forces you to do more and thus become better. What do you think improves your mechanics the most for instance, attacking with a colossus deathball or deflecting it with a terran army. The same goes for tank leapfrogging and marine splitting. If we make the statement that terran has the most demanding mechancis it'd also mean that the pros playing terran improved at a faster rate since they had more of a challenge in front of them, and were less locked by the race. 3. A lot of the process is random, but it shouldn't necessarily deviate into the 1/1/1 ratios because of the point I made in 1. The numbers at the very top code S/A-level in Korea are simply to small for there to absolutely need to be a 1/1/1 ratio. Also, if Terran started out stronger and had more people playing it, and now the representation is equal, it actually does point to the fact that terran has ended up becoming too weak, since they haven't lost the player count advantage over the other races. The fact that GSL code S is racially balanced is actually a sign that Blizzard does balance after player skill. 4. That was exactly my point. If MC was terran there'd be even more terran godlike players to shift the balance winratios and make Blizzard counterbalance terran further. You listed the top twos for each race, but for every great protoss/zerg player there are three terran ones in the long list of top players for each race.
Ok so for point 1, what you say in a nutshell is that a lot of koreans were influenced by Boxer/Nada etc.. then they chose the terran race because of them, so there were more koreans playing terrans, and as a result more of them being at the highest level. This actually makes sense, but then there should be more terrans players overall too ? At least more terrans among those players like us, enough involved in Starcraft to become a player's fan, that could restrict them to players over silver/gold level maybe, definitely not pros only. I mean maybe there is a good explanation but I dont get it.
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