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[Up/Down] Group E 2012 GSL Season 3 - Page 113

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Tournaments
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anonymitylol
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada4477 Posts
May 25 2012 15:32 GMT
#2241
On May 25 2012 23:20 Rainfall7711 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:12 summerloud wrote:
terrans dominate GSL ever since it started

we finally get an even race distribution

much terran QQ ensues...

srsly wtf?


If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why.

THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN.


Yes it is! Though anytime a Terran or Zerg player wins they played great, if it's a fucking Protoss everyone cries imbalance forever it's fucking retarded.


Are you serious? For MONTHS people whined about how Terran was overpowered, because players like MVP, MKP, and MMA were constantly winning and the amount of Terrans was higher than other races in the GSL.

Don't even begin to act like people don't whine about Terrans.
gold on my wrist phone in my pocket
darkest44
Profile Joined December 2010
United States1009 Posts
May 25 2012 15:47 GMT
#2242
Rofl I'd love to see one LR thread not hijacked by race balance whines, especially anytime a Terran loses, this place goes to shit. Give up on this forum.
samurai80
Profile Joined November 2011
Japan4225 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-25 15:55:19
May 25 2012 15:47 GMT
#2243
On May 25 2012 23:44 TeeTS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 23:36 samurai80 wrote:
On May 25 2012 23:15 Dalavita wrote:
On May 25 2012 23:10 samurai80 wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:58 Dalavita wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:56 samurai80 wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:47 Dalavita wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:12 summerloud wrote:
terrans dominate GSL ever since it started

we finally get an even race distribution

much terran QQ ensues...

srsly wtf?


If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why.

THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN.


So in your professional, caps lock opinion, how do we justify what players are the best if we don't have all of them playing on an equal playing field (i.e. racial balance)?

Obviously, if more of the best players are playing Terran, that's a problem for the state of the game. It's a problem because there's a reason top players are flocking to that race. It has the highest skill ceiling. Why can't the other races have higher skill ceilings, allowing top players to consider playing as Zerg or Protoss as they enter in to SC2?

You've assumed that the players who play as Terran automatically deserve to win because they're supposedly better or because they've picked the historically best race (according to the statistics). But as the game has become more and more balanced, we should expect the racial distribution to even out more.


Terran in SC2 has the most skilled players and the highest number of skilled players because Terran in BW had the most skilled players develop during its lifetime, who then transferred over. This in combination with newer players picking terrans due to old BW terran idols like Boxer and Nada (marineking who played Protoss in BW for instance) influence it further. This in combination with terran having the highest skill cap allows for the already better players to improve at a more rapid pace compared to the zergs/protosses.

A lot of the process is random. If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress. There are few enough people at the very top that individuals make big differences in statistics, and most of the good players happen to be terran. With this in mind, seeing Blizzard and the community constantly affect terran negatively, either by nerfs or map changes, instead of allowing for zergs and protosses to become better with practice just warps the game balance around to the point where you'll see balanced racial distributions when the better players are competing against bad odds. How do I know who's a good player and who isn't? I've watched this game since the beginning, as have most people, and it's easy to form conclusions about players and what calibre they are, and most of the good players so far have been terran.

As far as protoss/zerg skill cap goes. I hope Blizzard will raise their skill cap to allow for better players to shine, but they don't. They're dumbing down terran to the same level at the moment, and it's hurting the game.

On May 25 2012 22:41 Lightspeaker wrote:

There's a counter-argument founded on the exact point you're trying to make. Specifically:

Players do not HAVE to play any particular race. If the races were balanced you would expect even player distribution across races and even race distribution. When they're not balanced players gravitate towards the strongest races, especially when money is on the line. Terran was OP earlier in the Starcraft 2 cycle meaning many pros gravitated towards it and that allowed them to do better than their actual skill. Now that things are more balanced it's evening up again.

Note: I'm not saying whether or not I agree with that argument. My point is you cannot simply dismiss evidence, you have to add it all together for the overall picture. Statistically the PvT matchup is balanced based on the regularly monthly data about high-level progames posted up on these very forums. Factually Terrans are the most represented and always have been the most represented at the highest levels (Code S) and there are far more medals and championships for Terran than Protoss and Zerg combined.

So trying to argue that your complaints are justified is not backed up by any of the data or facts. Not to mention it's hard to feel pity for people crying about their race being underpowered when a player from said race just won Code S for the fourth time whilst suffering from a wrist injury. Thats not exactly a numerically significant example of course (because it's just one player), but theres a huge amount of irony there.


If all races were balanced in the start there should theoretically be even racial distribution (more on that later), but that's not considering the history of the individual subject, i.e Starcraft 2, which is combined with Brood Wars strategy. In the absolute beginning of SC2s history when no one knew anything about the game there were still twice as many terrans as the other races. That alone should show that there are other factors other than racial balance in the equation. And if racial distribution is your indicator of racial balance, you should check nowhere else except for sc2ranks where terran in all leagues past silver in all regions is the lowest statistically demanding.

Other than that, I don't understand why you see irony and balance whining anywhere. I'd be glad if terran was the least represented race as long as the game was actually being balanced properly, but as it is, it's not. Terran as a whole is being punished for them having the better players. I don't care about people feeling pity about me/terrans/something?. I want to make an argument and try to explain it to people so they can understand it from a new point of view that goes further than statistics that blizzard manipulates to look good.

Alright, DarkPlasmaBall point of view looks pretty clear to me, if you don't understand it it means you're completely retarded.


Or that you're wrong Considering the quality of your posts I'm happy that you don't agree with me as it means that I might be onto something right.

On May 25 2012 22:57 FatalT wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:50 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:44 Remi wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:34 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:29 Remi wrote:
[quote]
While it is true, that terrans occupy third of code S spots, they are also race that has lost most spots in this season. I wouldn't actually be surprised, judging from tvp and tvz trends after latest patches, that if current state of game will continue, terrans will be the least represented race in code S after season or 2.


have been the most represented race for 2 years in the GSL (often times by a huge margin). If has to suffer through a few seasons of least representation for Blizz to balance patch, then so be it. The future is looking a lot brighter than the past (in terms of Code S race representation).

If you believe that no race should be op (as you imply terrans was in 1st part of your post) then you should be against protoss or zerg being op even for "few" seasons if possible. If you're OK with someone being op (as your 2 part suggest) then why would you think terran domination was a bad thing to begin with? What you can't do is have your cake and eat it too.


Here's what I'm getting at.

1. Balanced racial representation is good for the game.
2. GSL has better racial representation now then ever in its history.

Then you posed a hypothesis that Terrans will be least represented race in 1 or 2 seasons. My 2nd argument is.

1. A few seasons of least representation is not that bad. Some race has to be least represented (barring ties), and if it's only a few months, then nothing to whine about.
2. 2 years of most representation (by large margins) is bad.
3. Therefore we are better off now than before.

Your in favour of laws that requires boards to have a distrubution of xx% of either sex? Even if that means leaving out someone really qualified? Perfect racial distrubution in the GSL shouldn't be the goal for someone who is balancing the game. The best players should get through(not saying Ace didn't deserve to get to Code S).


This, pretty much. People are so hung up on statistical equivalents that they stop to consider the individual players. It's pretty much the same as drafting and equal number of women and men into every business because it looks good statistically, while pissing on their individual achievements.

Well I don't care what you think about the quality of my posts as well as you seems not to care about what I am thinking. But still this applies :
+ Show Spoiler +
On May 25 2012 22:45 samurai80 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 22:37 Poopi wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:31 TeeTS wrote:
Hey Terran's aren't alowed to complain about balance! MVP won code s guys! That Squirtle just started playing when he was 0-3 down has to be put aside here, because MVP WON CODE S, so everything in this matchup is fine, isn't it?

Funny thing people don't realize is that GSL finals can't tell shit about balance because players are under so much pressure that often who will win mindgames/deal better with the pressure will end up winning. That's why Squirtle got trashed at first 3-0 despite being (imo) better than Mvp in the match-up.

I'm sad that BB didn't get through but if AcE can play good in code S too it would be cool, ST protosses don't fail to deliver.

Don't you realize you're in a thread about GSL ?? Do your balance whine in another thread if you think GSL can't tell shit about balance. Don't u realize there are more terrans than protoss in both code S and code A ?? Don't you realize how better the terrans' results were ?? Don't you realize protoss are in no way OP in GSL ? So then why do you whine about protoss in A GSL THREAD ?? Don't you realize how annoying it is ? Don't you realize how indecent it is ? Don't you realize why you could (and should) be banned for this ??


I mean I don't even want to have a debate about balance, I am complaining about those terrans who always balance whine IN GSL THREADS, where terrans are actually dominating. I wouldn't have any problem if you were talking about yourself playing on the ladder, but you should then do it in the appropriate threads. But here you are doing that in a GSL thread man, you can be banned for it and there is a reason. And moreover it is indecent as terrans win more in GSL. At least you should be able to understand that.


First of all, balance whining has been part of LRs since the beginning. Protosses and zergs have done it for WAY longer than terrans have done it, in case you weren't here in the start. Added to that. I'm actually discussing the racial distributions which were listed in this LR and how to read them. Balance whining would imply that I had a personal agenda, but I don't care about specific races being stronger or weaker than the other. I want the game to be as good as it simply can be, and right now it's going in the wrong way, and a lot of people don't see it. If I was truly balance whining I would have bitched about MKP losing to Ace, in what was a classic show of the lategame TvP problems, but I didn't. I'm strictly speaking of racial distributions in the GSL which is part of this thread. It's simply related to blizzards balancing process, but there's a lot more to it than that.

First of all, balance whining has been part of LRs since the beginning.

That doesn't mean it is legitimate to do it in LRs. That's actually a problem pointed out very often here and I really think it should be banned.
Protosses and zergs have done it for WAY longer than terrans have done it, in case you weren't here in the start.
And I'm never gonna say they were right. But still, there is one factor making GSL LR thread balance whine even worse when it's about terrans, it's that the terran race has almost always had good results in GSL, at least decent, while protosses and zergs did actually have some bad periods. In no way it can justify to balance whine in a LR thread, but still, we can have some compassion and we might be slightly more indulgent with them considering they were really disappointed at this moment.

But the guys like you balance whining about terrans don't even have this excuse, and more than that, it's indecent/disgusting, it pisses other races fans off. But again don't get me wrong, I am not saying balance whine in GSL threads is ok if your race is less represented in GSL, that's not what I am saying. Balance whiners for all races are all almost equally wrong, I'm just saying the protoss and zergs might be very slightly less wrong. I do think all balance whiners should be banned. And I do understand it's hard to do that for the admins here.


balancing based only on results rather than actual gameplay is one of the most stupid things you can do in that regard. And discussing balance only based on results goes the same way. So your point is completely irrelevant.

OMG u read my post ? I do not think so. Because what you call your point is actually not my point at all. My point was about the fact I hate guys balance whining in LR threads. The rest was mostly details about how it pissed me off and why it was even worse in a GSL thread and coming from terrans.
Coal
Profile Joined July 2011
Sweden1535 Posts
May 25 2012 15:52 GMT
#2244
Man Ace looks kinda buff in those pictures, nice to see a korean that works out ^_^ Man what are they putting in the water @ ST house? Parting, Squirtle, Naniwa, and now Ace? So goooooood <3
In order to succeed, your desire for success should be greater than your fear of failure.
noddy
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom927 Posts
May 25 2012 15:55 GMT
#2245
Thank god MarineKing won <3
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44159 Posts
May 25 2012 15:57 GMT
#2246
On May 26 2012 00:52 Coal wrote:
Man Ace looks kinda buff in those pictures, nice to see a korean that works out ^_^ Man what are they putting in the water @ ST house? Parting, Squirtle, Naniwa, and now Ace? So goooooood <3


May I present to you the gem of TeamLiquid: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100673
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
MCMXVI
Profile Joined August 2010
Norway1193 Posts
May 25 2012 15:57 GMT
#2247
On May 25 2012 19:11 Serinox wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 19:10 MCMXVI wrote:
On May 25 2012 19:10 Serinox wrote:
Ugh, MMA why do u donate a win to AcE? Oh god, the thought of AcE getting to Code S....frightening....


Holding off an all-in from a top terran = code S worthy imo.

All-inning and losing = not code S worthy :D


AcE is barely Code A material.

Yeah, barely Code A... That means MKP and MMA are what, code B?
In capitalist America, bank robs YOU!
Lukeeze[zR]
Profile Joined February 2006
Switzerland6838 Posts
May 25 2012 15:59 GMT
#2248
On May 26 2012 00:57 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 26 2012 00:52 Coal wrote:
Man Ace looks kinda buff in those pictures, nice to see a korean that works out ^_^ Man what are they putting in the water @ ST house? Parting, Squirtle, Naniwa, and now Ace? So goooooood <3


May I present to you the gem of TeamLiquid: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100673


Oh please no
Terran & Potato Salad.
MegaFonzie
Profile Joined April 2011
Australia1084 Posts
May 25 2012 16:10 GMT
#2249
I haven't been a fan of AcE's play for a long time, but tonight's game against B4 was absolutely gorgeous.
@x5_MegaFonzie
SarcasmMonster
Profile Joined October 2011
3136 Posts
May 25 2012 16:12 GMT
#2250
On May 25 2012 22:57 FatalT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 22:50 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:44 Remi wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:34 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:29 Remi wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:18 SarcasmMonster wrote:
On May 25 2012 22:15 FuzzyJAM wrote:
I do love it when people act as though the game must balanced if there's even racial distribution in Code S.

The idea that there must be identical numbers of equally skilled players in all three races is kind of funny.


Well, compared to this season where 15/32 were Terrans (that's 1 away from half!), it's nice to have a season where it's not so Terran dominated. Players will need to be well rounded in their matchups to advance.

While it is true, that terrans occupy third of code S spots, they are also race that has lost most spots in this season. I wouldn't actually be surprised, judging from tvp and tvz trends after latest patches, that if current state of game will continue, terrans will be the least represented race in code S after season or 2.


have been the most represented race for 2 years in the GSL (often times by a huge margin). If has to suffer through a few seasons of least representation for Blizz to balance patch, then so be it. The future is looking a lot brighter than the past (in terms of Code S race representation).

If you believe that no race should be op (as you imply terrans was in 1st part of your post) then you should be against protoss or zerg being op even for "few" seasons if possible. If you're OK with someone being op (as your 2 part suggest) then why would you think terran domination was a bad thing to begin with? What you can't do is have your cake and eat it too.


Here's what I'm getting at.

1. Balanced racial representation is good for the game.
2. GSL has better racial representation now then ever in its history.

Then you posed a hypothesis that Terrans will be least represented race in 1 or 2 seasons. My 2nd argument is.

1. A few seasons of least representation is not that bad. Some race has to be least represented (barring ties), and if it's only a few months, then nothing to whine about.
2. 2 years of most representation (by large margins) is bad.
3. Therefore we are better off now than before.

Your in favour of laws that requires boards to have a distrubution of xx% of either sex? Even if that means leaving out someone really qualified? Perfect racial distrubution in the GSL shouldn't be the goal for someone who is balancing the game. The best players should get through(not saying Ace didn't deserve to get to Code S).


You are misrepresenting my argument. I'm saying a balanced racial distribution is a good thing, I don't see how that's arguable. Your presenting my argument as if I want racial distribution by fiat/laws. There's a difference.

Fixing your analogy:

1. A political system where there are many males and females representation would be nice to have (analogy for my argument).
2. A political system should mandate by law that the males and females are equal in representation (your presentation of my argument).
MMA: The true King of Wings
Bagration
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
United States18282 Posts
May 25 2012 16:17 GMT
#2251
Well Ryung, looks like you are the banner carrier for Slayers Terrans this GSL...May the grace of Boxer be with you
Team Slayers, Axiom-Acer and Vile forever
Stanlot
Profile Joined December 2010
United States5742 Posts
May 25 2012 16:18 GMT
#2252
MKP so good but what happened to MMA? ;_;
MC: "Sentry Forcefield Forcefield Marauder... cage Marauder die die"
AxionSteel
Profile Joined January 2011
United States7754 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-05-25 16:24:28
May 25 2012 16:24 GMT
#2253
Wow some amazing games tonight. Incredible play by AcE against BboongBbong, can't remember getting so excited over a protoss game before, that was epic. Loved the feedback drops on the infestors especially But the storm drops, sentry drops/zealot/dt attacks and defensive recalls were also pretty damn good!!

gradotude
Profile Joined October 2009
United States196 Posts
May 25 2012 16:26 GMT
#2254
mkp vs ace sooo goood!
aznball123
Profile Joined February 2012
2759 Posts
May 25 2012 16:27 GMT
#2255
wow, MMA big slump.
Mmm, what to watch.
JiYan
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3668 Posts
May 25 2012 16:29 GMT
#2256
i feel sorta bad for B4 =\
K3Nyy
Profile Joined February 2010
United States1961 Posts
May 25 2012 16:31 GMT
#2257
On May 26 2012 00:57 MCMXVI wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 25 2012 19:11 Serinox wrote:
On May 25 2012 19:10 MCMXVI wrote:
On May 25 2012 19:10 Serinox wrote:
Ugh, MMA why do u donate a win to AcE? Oh god, the thought of AcE getting to Code S....frightening....


Holding off an all-in from a top terran = code S worthy imo.

All-inning and losing = not code S worthy :D


AcE is barely Code A material.

Yeah, barely Code A... That means MKP and MMA are what, code B?


Nobody plays their best every single time everyday. Ace just played really well today, let's just hope he can keep it up.

MKP is still a beast going 4-1 and MMA.. I dunno he's been slumping a bit recently.
Sroobz
Profile Joined December 2011
United States1377 Posts
May 25 2012 16:32 GMT
#2258
Ace's play blew me away! Nice job mayn
Flash---Taeja---Mvp---Byun---DRG
ColA-
Profile Joined April 2012
Canada66 Posts
May 25 2012 16:35 GMT
#2259
Yes MKP! Oh yeah!
Nerf probes, they carry to many minerals.
zeratul_jf
Profile Joined October 2011
United States808 Posts
May 25 2012 16:37 GMT
#2260
poor MMA i hope he gets over it. He wins some he loses some =/ hopefully he can go back to his BEAST MODE
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