[Up/Down] Group E 2012 GSL Season 3 - Page 110

On May 25 2012 22:24 marcesr wrote:
GSL Code S has always been the best place for Terran players, now if even on the highest level Terrans dont win macro games anymore, what about ALL THE OTHER PLAYERS BELOW THAT from bronze to grandmaster, how are they supposed to win a macro game with terran?

On May 25 2012 22:13 Remi wrote:

Why it's always Terran, that has to do something perfectly vs Protoss (have just the right amount of vikings, right amount of ghost, right amount of medivacs etc.) or die, never the reverse.

On May 25 2012 22:18 Dalavita wrote:


If you people could actually look past your noses and see past even race distribution you'd understand why.

THE POINT OF THIS GAME IS NOT TO HAVE EVEN RACIAL DISTRIBUTION. IT'S TO HAVE THE BETTER PLAYERS WIN.

On May 25 2012 22:40 SkullZ9 wrote:
The very bad performance of MMA today has been overshadowed by Ace's amazing play

On May 25 2012 22:34 SarcasmMonster wrote:


have been the most represented race for 2 years in the GSL (often times by a huge margin). If has to suffer through a few seasons of least representation for Blizz to balance patch, then so be it. The future is looking a lot brighter than the past (in terms of Code S race representation).

On May 25 2012 22:37 Poopi wrote:

Funny thing people don't realize is that GSL finals can't tell shit about balance because players are under so much pressure that often who will win mindgames/deal better with the pressure will end up winning. That's why Squirtle got trashed at first 3-0 despite being (imo) better than Mvp in the match-up.

I'm sad that BB didn't get through but if AcE can play good in code S too it would be cool, ST protosses don't fail to deliver.

On May 25 2012 22:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


So in your professional, caps lock opinion, how do we justify what players are the best if we don't have all of them playing on an equal playing field (i.e. racial balance)?

Obviously, if more of the best players are playing Terran, that's a problem for the state of the game. It's a problem because there's a reason top players are flocking to that race. It has the highest skill ceiling. Why can't the other races have higher skill ceilings, allowing top players to consider playing as Zerg or Protoss as they enter in to SC2?

You've assumed that the players who play as Terran automatically deserve to win because they're supposedly better or because they've picked the historically best race (according to the statistics). But as the game has become more and more balanced, we should expect the racial distribution to even out more.

On May 25 2012 22:41 Lightspeaker wrote:

There's a counter-argument founded on the exact point you're trying to make. Specifically:

Players do not HAVE to play any particular race. If the races were balanced you would expect even player distribution across races and even race distribution. When they're not balanced players gravitate towards the strongest races, especially when money is on the line. Terran was OP earlier in the Starcraft 2 cycle meaning many pros gravitated towards it and that allowed them to do better than their actual skill. Now that things are more balanced it's evening up again.

Note: I'm not saying whether or not I agree with that argument. My point is you cannot simply dismiss evidence, you have to add it all together for the overall picture. Statistically the PvT matchup is balanced based on the regularly monthly data about high-level progames posted up on these very forums. Factually Terrans are the most represented and always have been the most represented at the highest levels (Code S) and there are far more medals and championships for Terran than Protoss and Zerg combined.

So trying to argue that your complaints are justified is not backed up by any of the data or facts. Not to mention it's hard to feel pity for people crying about their race being underpowered when a player from said race just won Code S for the fourth time whilst suffering from a wrist injury. Thats not exactly a numerically significant example of course (because it's just one player), but theres a huge amount of irony there.

On May 25 2012 22:45 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:


Ah thank you for this

On May 25 2012 22:48 SkullZ9 wrote:
It's funny cause I remember when Ace and Squirtle won @ IEM a long time ago against good foreigners, everybody was saying foreigners were so bad because they lost against some code B noobs, but I was surprised to see the best foreigners beaten like this, and I was sure that there was no such a skill difference between korea and the rest of the world at that point. I'm now happy to see that Ace and Squirtle were NOT some code B noobs, but players with a lot of potential, I was waiting for it ^^

On May 25 2012 22:50 redviper wrote:


I can never stop hating Ace for stealing that final from Moon I hope he ends back in Code B in 2 seasons.

On May 25 2012 22:44 Remi wrote:

If you believe that no race should be op (as you imply terrans was in 1st part of your post) then you should be against protoss or zerg being op even for "few" seasons if possible. If you're OK with someone being op (as your 2 part suggest) then why would you think terran domination was a bad thing to begin with? What you can't do is have your cake and eat it too.

On May 25 2012 22:47 Dalavita wrote:


Terran in SC2 has the most skilled players and the highest number of skilled players because Terran in BW had the most skilled players develop during its lifetime, who then transferred over. This in combination with newer players picking terrans due to old BW terran idols like Boxer and Nada (marineking who played Protoss in BW for instance) influence it further. This in combination with terran having the highest skill cap allows for the already better players to improve at a more rapid pace compared to the zergs/protosses.

A lot of the process is random. If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress. There are few enough people at the very top that individuals make big differences in statistics, and most of the good players happen to be terran. With this in mind, seeing Blizzard and the community constantly affect terran negatively, either by nerfs or map changes, instead of allowing for zergs and protosses to become better with practice just warps the game balance around to the point where you'll see balanced racial distributions when the better players are competing against bad odds. How do I know who's a good player and who isn't? I've watched this game since the beginning, as have most people, and it's easy to form conclusions about players and what calibre they are, and most of the good players so far have been terran.

As far as protoss/zerg skill cap goes. I hope Blizzard will raise their skill cap to allow for better players to shine, but they don't. They're dumbing down terran to the same level at the moment, and it's hurting the game.

On May 25 2012 22:47 Dalavita wrote:


Terran in SC2 has the most skilled players and the highest number of skilled players because Terran in BW had the most skilled players develop during its lifetime, who then transferred over. This in combination with newer players picking terrans due to old BW terran idols like Boxer and Nada (marineking who played Protoss in BW for instance) influence it further. This in combination with terran having the highest skill cap allows for the already better players to improve at a more rapid pace compared to the zergs/protosses.

A lot of the process is random. If MKP, MVP and Nestea were all playing protoss that race would have the most wins and best progress. There are few enough people at the very top that individuals make big differences in statistics, and most of the good players happen to be terran. With this in mind, seeing Blizzard and the community constantly affect terran negatively, either by nerfs or map changes, instead of allowing for zergs and protosses to become better with practice just warps the game balance around to the point where you'll see balanced racial distributions when the better players are competing against bad odds. How do I know who's a good player and who isn't? I've watched this game since the beginning, as have most people, and it's easy to form conclusions about players and what calibre they are, and most of the good players so far have been terran.

As far as protoss/zerg skill cap goes. I hope Blizzard will raise their skill cap to allow for better players to shine, but they don't. They're dumbing down terran to the same level at the moment, and it's hurting the game.



If all races were balanced in the start there should theoretically be even racial distribution (more on that later), but that's not considering the history of the individual subject, i.e Starcraft 2, which is combined with Brood Wars strategy. In the absolute beginning of SC2s history when no one knew anything about the game there were still twice as many terrans as the other races. That alone should show that there are other factors other than racial balance in the equation. And if racial distribution is your indicator of racial balance, you should check nowhere else except for sc2ranks where terran in all leagues past silver in all regions is the lowest statistically demanding.

Other than that, I don't understand why you see irony and balance whining anywhere. I'd be glad if terran was the least represented race as long as the game was actually being balanced properly, but as it is, it's not. Terran as a whole is being punished for them having the better players. I don't care about people feeling pity about me/terrans/something?. I want to make an argument and try to explain it to people so they can understand it from a new point of view that goes further than statistics that blizzard manipulates to look good.