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Contrary to popular belief Stephano is not from the States, any mindless spam asserting otherwise after this time (19:48 KST/ 5:48 AM EST/ 10:48 GMT) will meet a moderator response. We have enough confusing spam posting in LR threads these days. Lets try to keep the love for everyone's favourite French zerg reasonable.
And as always:
- No player bashing.
- No caster bashing.
- No balance whining.
Enjoy the games. |
On December 13 2011 00:02 Djin)ftw( wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 23:11 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 12 2011 22:47 redviper wrote:On December 12 2011 22:36 BlazeFury01 wrote:On December 12 2011 22:22 Linwelin wrote:
Oh Stephano is out, what a surprise.. Oh wait no.
Maybe blind fanboys will stop praising him as the first sc2 god Sure he's out, but hey at least he made it to blizz cup in the first place and took some wins off some top notch players. Fan boys will be fan boys and there will be plenty of hype for pretty much every player in blizz cup. So please, leave the sarcasm "Oh Stephano is out, what a suprise...Oh wait no" out of the discussion. I bet you didn't say the same thing about MVP and Nestea when they BOTH lost to Naniwa at MLG. But when Naniwa loses to Leenock people bash him or come up with excuses as to why nestea and mvp lost lol. A lot of people are a lot more critical on foreigners then they are the koreans and it's really annoying. I don't care about Stephano but you can't compare the two situations. MVP and Nestea have won a shit load. They don't need to prove themselves as the best in the world. Everyone knows they are the best in the world. Naniwa and Stephano have won foreign tourneys but they haven't won GSL and they have certainly not shown that they are in a league all their own. Since they have something to prove they are judged all the time, Nestea/MVP do not. After MVP won GSL Jan there was a similar situation where he had to prove himself. After he won WC a lot of people still popah'd his accomplishments. He has already climbed this ladder (and so has Nestea who faced it right after GSL 2). Your post is a prime example of what I was talking about. Alright, so Nestea and MVP are multiple GSL title holders, right? So basically, your telling me that even if a foreigner beats MVP or Nestea "in a tournament setting" they still haven't proved anything? That's such an arrogant and bias comment. First off, if a foreigner beats a GSL champion in a straight up game I believe that's plenty of "proof" to say they are a great player. But instead, the crowd will say, "OH NESTEA OR MVP PLAYED BAD" overlooking how well they really played, just because they lost to a foreigner. If a Foreigner beats a top Korean on ladder the excuse is "OH THERE WAS LAG, NESTEA, MVP SUFFERED FROM LAG THAT'S WHY THEY LOST". If Koreans lose to a foreigner at a tournament setting the excuse is "OH HE'S JETLAGGED". But, when a foreigner loses, it's always something critical. It's a shame that the international scene is so bias toward Koreans and so harsh on their own countrymen. This is not Brood War, where koreans completely dominated the scene and there were little to no foreigner teams in the league. This is SC2, where Koreans and Foreigners can compete at the same level competitively. Koreans are still human, they are not invincible and certainly not unbeatable. I love both worlds. Stop being so harsh on foreigners just because they didn't advance. Instead pat their back for making it there in the first place because they certainly weren't given the spot in blizzcup, they earned it. As long as foreigners dont win at least Code A it will always be Korea > rest of the world. It is just a matter of fact that expect jinro and idra in the early tournaments no one even got close to making it to a final. A lot of the top foreigners tried, and they all failed. Just look at the stats of the best foreigners: naniwa 1-8Huk 30-35sase 1-6select 2-4sjow 2-3ret 6-9sheth 3-4sen 2-3jinro 28-34 with 2 impressive runs in the third and fourth season, but that was a long time ago hero 13-20(and he even is korean lol!)
the only one with positive stats that i found are idra with 16-10 (and puma of course xD) All of these have career stats of >55%, some even >60% and have probably won 90% of the major foreign tournaments. Now you will of course want to write "ey but foreigners are beating top tier koreans all the time, naniwa won the MLG global over MVP and nestea, stephano IPL 3 and beat thestc and lucky, huk beat mc, even haypro beat nestea bla bla bla. Also Stephano Nerchio Kas never entered GSL, how do you want to know if they wouldnt just roflstomp all these....." It doesn't matter. When koreans enter a foreign tournament they will automatically be candidates for the title. When a foreigner enters a GSL he is as good as gone. Until that changes (probably never) koreans will always be > foreigners.
I think those are really good points, and the statistics definitely show that.
It's exactly why foreigners need to go to Korea, stay in Korea, and practice in Korea, if they want to become as good as Koreans. That's what everyone says, and we've seen how well some of the players have improved by staying there.
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On December 12 2011 23:51 dapierow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 23:48 HappyChris wrote:On December 12 2011 23:44 dapierow wrote:On December 12 2011 23:30 sopas wrote:On December 12 2011 23:26 Squeegy wrote:On December 12 2011 23:19 Ysellian wrote:On December 12 2011 23:15 Alokiya wrote:
Is there a player (besides Idra) that inspires such strong feelings as Stephano? There's really not many people on the middle ground with him, it's absolutely a love/hate thing, which I don't get. Personally, I think he played solid today, there's no real shame in losing Bo1 to MVP and MC. It was good for him to have a super strong test, hopefully he enjoys the rest of his time in korea! Yeah with stephano it's odd. I mean Naniwa has Idra-like behaviour, but Stephano is well mannered. It's not odd at all because it's not the player. It's the fans. so people are antifans becos he has fans? wow... that's so sad. IMO they're two types of fans and 2 types of anti fans of stephano Fans: 1. Those who fall for the hype a player like stephano has brought, beating quite a few koreans and foreigners in his short time and his ladder runs. 2. Those who actually like his play and style, and enjoy watching his stream. Anti-Fans 1. Those who are tired of everyone so hyping him so much, they want him to fall because they're tired of reading "stephano best foreinger new bonjwa" 2. Fans of Idra the second type of antifan is because of the fact Idra has said stephano is overrated... I cant understand "part 2 of the anti fans" I simply dont get it why Idra and his fans are so intimidated by Stephano. I have never once seen an interview where Stephano says anything negative about Idra. Matter in fact Stephano only got good things to say about Idra. I have seen pleanty of Idra interviews where he indirectly attack Stephano. Overrated etc I dont get it I dont feel that IdrA is intimiated by Stephano but hes seen people like him win a few tourneys at the start of their career and fall off and thats where he gets his negetivity from. IdrA's fans well you can see he has the biggest fanpage on TL by far and you have to consider that if they're big enough fans, they're his followers.
what other players have done what Stephano has done and fallen off?
Idra is good but he is always mad jelly whenever someone comes along and threatens or takes his "best foreigner" crown, Stephano, Huk and Nani have all had better results than Idra's, tbh Idra has been overrated for a long time, this korean stint is a chance to prove himself, but we shall see if he is really the player all his fans think he is
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Grats to MC, very impressive he managed to advance at all on these maps.
And thank God all the "Hero is best Protoss" nonsense will die now, he still has yet to show anything good vs Korean players.
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On December 13 2011 00:12 dapierow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:04 SafeAsCheese wrote:On December 12 2011 23:44 dapierow wrote:
the second type of antifan is because of the fact Idra has said stephano is overrated...
IdrA said that stephano's style will be figured out by the koreans and he will stop winning as much DRG said the EXACT same thing in his winner interview, it's in the community forum if you want to see. Look at one of the recent video interviews, i forget which one, but a few weeks before NASL I believe, he states Stephano is overrated.
And yet he lost to Stephano in a very convincing way, way to prove he is overrated  I'd still like a like to the interview, most of the korean players are nice, and most of those who got asked said that Stephano is code S material, so I'd be interested to hear why DRG thinks otherwise.
As for Hero, it happened to him the same thing that happened to HuK, MC, Naniwa, Stephano and the many others that won big tournaments, traveled a lot and didn't have enough time to practice, he tilted and had one hell of a bad day. That happens, that doesn't make him a bad player and he'll get more good results in the future.
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Hero just twitted: I'm sorry to show low levels game at Bllizard Cup , Sorry to my fan.
Feel so sorry for Hero becuase the games clearly didnt show his skills. Keep you chin up Hero hardest group ever dont be ashamed it could have happend to any other in that group
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On December 12 2011 19:49 Nate5911 wrote:
MVP played that as smart as you possibly can with a build like that. *Always* chooses the right builds.
Or it's just the flexibility of Terran that allows him to do fake expands like that. GL doing something like that as Protoss..
HerO has some of the best multitasking, micro and creativity in the scene, and he's already out.. Fucking hell..
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On December 13 2011 00:19 Olinimm wrote:
Grats to MC, very impressive he managed to advance at all on these maps.
And thank God all the "Hero is best Protoss" nonsense will die now, he still has yet to show anything good vs Korean players.
People are always going to exaggerate levels of play when someone performs well. Hero's a nice guy and a very good player, but obviously no one's going to take that statement (that he's the best Protoss) seriously.
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On December 13 2011 00:19 Ylrahc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:12 dapierow wrote:On December 13 2011 00:04 SafeAsCheese wrote:On December 12 2011 23:44 dapierow wrote:
the second type of antifan is because of the fact Idra has said stephano is overrated...
IdrA said that stephano's style will be figured out by the koreans and he will stop winning as much DRG said the EXACT same thing in his winner interview, it's in the community forum if you want to see. Look at one of the recent video interviews, i forget which one, but a few weeks before NASL I believe, he states Stephano is overrated. And yet he lost to Stephano in a very convincing way, way to prove he is overrated I'd still like a like to the interview, most of the korean players are nice, and most of those who got asked said that Stephano is code S material, so I'd be interested to hear why DRG thinks otherwise.
Idra and Stephano have never met in a tournament, unless you mean ladder which is just silly.
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On December 13 2011 00:22 Dauntless wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 19:49 Nate5911 wrote:
MVP played that as smart as you possibly can with a build like that. *Always* chooses the right builds. Or it's just the flexibility of Terran that allows him to do fake expands like that. GL doing something like that as Protoss.. HerO has some of the best multitasking, micro and creativity in the scene, and he's already out.. Fucking hell..
agreed, Terran have the most range early game and suit a bo1 format
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On December 13 2011 00:23 dapierow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:19 Ylrahc wrote:On December 13 2011 00:12 dapierow wrote:On December 13 2011 00:04 SafeAsCheese wrote:On December 12 2011 23:44 dapierow wrote:
the second type of antifan is because of the fact Idra has said stephano is overrated...
IdrA said that stephano's style will be figured out by the koreans and he will stop winning as much DRG said the EXACT same thing in his winner interview, it's in the community forum if you want to see. Look at one of the recent video interviews, i forget which one, but a few weeks before NASL I believe, he states Stephano is overrated. And yet he lost to Stephano in a very convincing way, way to prove he is overrated I'd still like a like to the interview, most of the korean players are nice, and most of those who got asked said that Stephano is code S material, so I'd be interested to hear why DRG thinks otherwise. Idra and Stephano have never met in a tournament, unless you mean ladder which is just silly.
It looks like I didn't understand the part I was quoting, I meant DRG & Stephano, sorry :s
Edit : rereading, I still don't understand...fact remains, where can I see the interview where DRG says Stephano is overrated ?
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On December 13 2011 00:22 Dauntless wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 19:49 Nate5911 wrote:
MVP played that as smart as you possibly can with a build like that. *Always* chooses the right builds. Or it's just the flexibility of Terran that allows him to do fake expands like that. GL doing something like that as Protoss.. HerO has some of the best multitasking, micro and creativity in the scene, and he's already out.. Fucking hell..
You do realize
That one of MC's staple builds
Was a fake nexus
Into gateway allin
Just sayin'
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On December 12 2011 22:56 power-overwhelming wrote:
The double standard in this forum is disgusting. It is almost so hard to take read everyone's opinion, let alone value them. Even "respected" posters do it too.
The problem with the games themselves were simply because they were BO1. However, the amount of bashing, specifically towards MC is sickening. He gets the worst possible maps for all his matchups except CBTS (which was wasted on PvP). He punished a greedy HerO and gets bashed for his "all-ins". Meanwhile MVP does a more obvious all in by bringing an SCV train and gets praised for being so smart.
That alone would have been understandable due to hardcore MVP fanboys being offended by MC's statement's and his ability to always take games off MVP, but now we got the Stephano fanboys fueling in more for the MC hate. MC draws Dual Sight for a PVZ. Statistically, it is heavily zerg favoured and taking a third is close to impossible. Stephano goes for a roach all in and gets defended perfectly by MC. MC proceeds to play the right way in a map against a zerg in response to what just happened earlier in the game.... and guess what? He gets bashed for "2-base all in".
I wonder if these same people even play the game or have close understanding to the Protoss mechanics. Protoss by far has the smallest margin of error and is the most unforgiving race. If you fail to kill a single worker or zergling on top of exchanging armies then you are severely behind. There is no back and forth. So for players like MC to calculate those risks and go for it is a testament to his confidence. Skillwise, apart from a couple of people, no one else can match MC's micro and his FF is easily the best in the world.
I would like if bashing is allowed, then be consistent. I don't know the avg age of poster in TL but it shouldn't excuse for this embarrassing behaviour.
Overall I was surprised MVP went 3-1. Was expecting a 2-2 or a a 1-3.
There is some wrong information here.
MC's ability to always take games off MVP??
Fact : MVP is overwhelming against MC in score actually.
1.GSTL Feb IM vs oGs: MVP wins
2.GSL August Ro.32 : MVP wins
3 WCG 2011 Korean quialifier Ro.16 : 2-1 for MVP
4.MLG Providence : 4-2 for MVP
5.Blizzard Cup : MVP wins.
Overall 9-3 for MVP. (so one-sided....lol)
btw I'm a huge fan of MVP but I love MC and stephano too.
and we have never offended by MC's statements cuz actually almost all MVP fans enjoying that...lol.
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On December 13 2011 00:25 Badfatpanda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:22 Dauntless wrote:On December 12 2011 19:49 Nate5911 wrote:
MVP played that as smart as you possibly can with a build like that. *Always* chooses the right builds. Or it's just the flexibility of Terran that allows him to do fake expands like that. GL doing something like that as Protoss.. HerO has some of the best multitasking, micro and creativity in the scene, and he's already out.. Fucking hell.. You do realize That one of MC's staple builds Was a fake nexus Into gateway allin Just sayin'
You do realize
Dumping 400 minerals into a Nexus you're gonna cancel
Is quite costly
Compared to not building a CC?
Just saying.
On December 12 2011 19:50 Jakkerr wrote:
Sure Hero played greedy and sure MVP just punished him.
But u know there's something wrong with ur game if sum1 can win by pulling 20 scv's and attacking.
SCVs complement Marines in ways a Protoss can only dream of. Probes end up being in the way for Zealots, and Marines eat them alive.
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Say what now? They have an equal amount to gain. At the start of the match both haven't qualified. At the end of the match one has. Thats all there is to it.
Well, first of all, I'm using this hypothetical scenario in order to illustrate why I think head-to-head should not be used. Just because things didn't happen to happen this way doesn't mean the format is not flawed and should not be further scrutinized.
So, in our hypothetical scenario here, MC goes into the match with 1 point and Stephano with 2 points.
When I say that MC has more to gain, I mean this: if we do not use head-to-head as a tiebreaker, we can say that the Stephano vs MC match is worth 1 point; if we use head-to-head we can say the match is worth 1.1 points. For Stephano, a win in either case sees him go through, whereas for MC he only goes through for sure if it's the latter. What this means is that Stephano sees no extra benefit from winning the extra .1 point whereas for MC the extra .1 means everything. When you increase the stakes of the match, both players should benefit equally otherwise you've given one player an advantage. The rewards for the same result are unsymmetrical and thus unfair.
In a tiebreaker system, the Stephano vs MC match is worth 1 point, and, if an equalizer is needed, the winner earns the extra .1 point. In both stages of this system, the rewards are symmetrical.
EDIT: I meant to address your whole post, not just that snippet. I just screwed up the code and couldn't be bothered to fix it.
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On December 13 2011 00:26 Strawburry17 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 22:56 power-overwhelming wrote:
The double standard in this forum is disgusting. It is almost so hard to take read everyone's opinion, let alone value them. Even "respected" posters do it too.
The problem with the games themselves were simply because they were BO1. However, the amount of bashing, specifically towards MC is sickening. He gets the worst possible maps for all his matchups except CBTS (which was wasted on PvP). He punished a greedy HerO and gets bashed for his "all-ins". Meanwhile MVP does a more obvious all in by bringing an SCV train and gets praised for being so smart.
That alone would have been understandable due to hardcore MVP fanboys being offended by MC's statement's and his ability to always take games off MVP, but now we got the Stephano fanboys fueling in more for the MC hate. MC draws Dual Sight for a PVZ. Statistically, it is heavily zerg favoured and taking a third is close to impossible. Stephano goes for a roach all in and gets defended perfectly by MC. MC proceeds to play the right way in a map against a zerg in response to what just happened earlier in the game.... and guess what? He gets bashed for "2-base all in".
I wonder if these same people even play the game or have close understanding to the Protoss mechanics. Protoss by far has the smallest margin of error and is the most unforgiving race. If you fail to kill a single worker or zergling on top of exchanging armies then you are severely behind. There is no back and forth. So for players like MC to calculate those risks and go for it is a testament to his confidence. Skillwise, apart from a couple of people, no one else can match MC's micro and his FF is easily the best in the world.
I would like if bashing is allowed, then be consistent. I don't know the avg age of poster in TL but it shouldn't excuse for this embarrassing behaviour.
Overall I was surprised MVP went 3-1. Was expecting a 2-2 or a a 1-3. There is some wrong information here. MC's ability to always take games off MVP?? Fact : MVP is overwhemling against MC in score actually. 1.GSTL Feb IM vs oGs: MVP wins 2.GSL August Ro.32 : MVP wins 3 WCG 2011 Korean quialifier Ro.16 : 2-1 for MVP 4.MLG Providence : 4-2 for MVP 5.Blizzard Cup : MVP wins. Overall 9-3 for MVP. (so one-sided....lol)
You forgot Ace invitational so 9-4. At least it's better than Nesteas record against MVP :D
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On December 12 2011 23:44 mordk wrote:So Stephano loses and people are claiming match-fixing issues? Sigh... TL.. when will you grow Also, how the fuck did MC win in those awful maps... I see people talking about Stephano allining. Why the hell would you all in MC when he's absolutely and terribly uncomfortable with macro PvZ in that map? It sounds ridiculous. Show nested quote +
A tiebreaker match is a discrete competition whose winner's group stage score is given priority over that of the loser's. The event is separate, and so the winner is simply given priority, regardless of previous results. All we know is that MC and Stephano are tied in the eyes of the tournament, and that whoever wins the tiebreaker match is given the go-ahead. Considerations of bo3 record or whatever do not need to enter into this.
This is where you're wrong. Given that the system involves a head-to-head record, they are NOT tied in the eyes of the tournament, MC is placed higher. You're disregarding the tournament's format to fit your argument. The only situation in which players are tied in this format is when there's a 3-way tie with each player beating a different contestant. That's the only situation in which a tiebreaker should happen.
I was unclear here. I meant that they would be tied in the eyes of the tournament if head-to-head was not implemented, meaning we used tiebreakers to make the difference. The whole argument is over whether we should do tiebreakers or use head-to-head, and I was simply saying that in the case of tiebreakers the players would be on even footing at that point.
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On December 13 2011 00:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:19 Olinimm wrote:
Grats to MC, very impressive he managed to advance at all on these maps.
And thank God all the "Hero is best Protoss" nonsense will die now, he still has yet to show anything good vs Korean players. People are always going to exaggerate levels of play when someone performs well. Hero's a nice guy and a very good player, but obviously no one's going to take that statement (that he's the best Protoss) seriously.
Well they would eventually if it's in TL articles xD.
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its obvious that idra is just jealous of stephano and his success. He talks about koreans figuring out his style yet all he does in zvt is 2 base muta and because of that puma raped him in the nasl and even stated he knew that the only thing idra does is 2 base muta. Stephano wins WAY more than idra ever does, if you were to put idra in todays group, he would most likely be in last place as his zvp is just awful. Stephano is quite obviously the best foreign zerg, full credit to him. Look at the tough group he was placed in and didnt make it through because of a tie breaker to mc. Stephano is better. End of. Results speak for themselves, Idra is just a jealous little geek.
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On December 13 2011 00:04 SafeAsCheese wrote:Show nested quote +On December 12 2011 23:44 dapierow wrote:
the second type of antifan is because of the fact Idra has said stephano is overrated...
IdrA said that stephano's style will be figured out by the koreans and he will stop winning as much DRG said the EXACT same thing in his winner interview, it's in the community forum if you want to see.
Maybe Idra should figure out how to win games himself before he starts talking smack about other players.
Also, DRG lost, he only makes himself look stupid by bashing a player that outplayed him.
I've seen how good Stephano is, not just in tournaments but also on Korean GM ladder, Idra is nowhere near that level, and he's been around for alot longer than Stephano aswell.
Even though Stephano is out, I still think taking two games of players this calibir is a good result.
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On December 13 2011 00:22 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On December 13 2011 00:19 Olinimm wrote:
Grats to MC, very impressive he managed to advance at all on these maps.
And thank God all the "Hero is best Protoss" nonsense will die now, he still has yet to show anything good vs Korean players. People are always going to exaggerate levels of play when someone performs well. Hero's a nice guy and a very good player, but obviously no one's going to take that statement (that he's the best Protoss) seriously.
Wasn't it Tasteless or Artosis who says he was the best Protoss at the moment? One of them said it then the other thought it was Naniwa.
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EPT
