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bobwhiz
United States725 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:23 mierin wrote: Hahaha this has got to be the best post I've read in this thread I was trying for a backhanded compliment like-- Lebron is better at basketball than Michael Jordan... was at baseball. | ||
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OsC
Canada542 Posts
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sc2guy
291 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:06 MrBitter wrote: BO wins? Game 1 maybe... Idra went hatch first without 9 scouting. That's as much of a cheese as an early pool build. You've got to send that drone out. Game 2 Zenio just played smart. He had total map control, making it very easy for him to keep Idra in the dark. The muta switch was incredibly clever. Idra's awesome. I love the guy. He got outplayed today. Totally agree with MrBitter post. We must really give more credit to Zenio. Moreover, Zenio has 6-0 Idra so far in recent games. Really goes to show Zenio's understanding of Idra play style. Although Idra is a very consistent player, perhaps it is this consistency and inability to adapt that causes his downfall. | ||
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dooraven
Australia2820 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:29 Oscatron wrote: is idra out of nasl 1? Think so. | ||
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bobwhiz
United States725 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:29 Oscatron wrote: is idra out of nasl 1? Yes. | ||
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Moralez
Portugal1857 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:27 Chicane wrote: How was it purely luck? He said in an interview that when he watched many replays Nestea ALWAYS went 15 hatch all the time against zerg. It WAS a build order win, but Dimaga was nearly positive that Nestea would go 15 hatch, so why not punish it? Please explain how that is luck? You can't assume in a tournament peoples build just because you watch some replays and in zvz theres so many openings its hard to predict. Dimaga flipped the coin did an all in nestea did a risky build, dimaga won because of the BO, simple. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:27 cheesemaster wrote: I dont see how people talking in threads makes him money, most people are pissed off about it. Thats going to make less people watch his stream not more, any publicity is good publicity is pretty stupid , sure maybe you will be famous but you lose alot of respect. Does idra really see himself as the paris hilton or lindsay lohan of the gaming world, where he does shitty things just to get attention? Lohan is broke as a joke right now these things catch up with people. How many more times are people even going to care weather he gg's or not? Soon its going to be "oh hes playing a korea he wont gg" Sure people may say something if its someone like boxer like thats so disrespectful or something, I dont see how he has anything to gain fromm doing this i honestly think less peoplewould watch his stream not more, especially because hes been losing in these horrible fashions recently. If hes doing really really well, and loses a game here or there but doesnt gg thats a different story. Its funny how he gg's everyone else in the league but wont GG the koreans, does he have some sort of resentment towards them? I understand him not gg'ing zenio alot more than boxer i mean the guys dont really like each other at all, so i wasnt really surprised about that, but boxer? no respect...... no respect. threads dont make him money. attention does. thousands of viewers watching him play to wait for his ragequitting and bm, etc. etc. you may not think it creates more viewers, but the reality is that people watch him because he is entertaining and they are waiting for him to flap his gums at someone. when he bms someone, threads pop up, and people start watching his stream. | ||
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taintmachine
United States431 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:22 StorkHwaiting wrote: Look, as a master zerg player I think it's really really easy to see how Idra lost. First game, big map, so ofc Idra goes 15h because he's a greedy macro player. Zenio guesses correctly and simply does a 9p and rapes it. 15h > 14e14p > 9p > 15h is the basic ZvZ dynamic. Second game, Idra just got 9p so he's scared to go 15h again, so ofc he goes 14e14p which is middle of the road build. Zenio does the same because he's confident he's a better player than Idra. You see how that works? He doesn't go greedy econ build because he thinks he's better. He goes the SAME middle of the road. Then, Idra diverges into 21/22h roach/ling timing attack. Zenio, with his earlier banes, intelligently identifies what Idra is going for and drops 2 spines and uses banes/lings to ward Idra off long enough to get enough larvae to wipe out the timing attack. Idra was already WAY behind after doing this timing attack! He caught up in drones sure, but Zenio had the same drone count for 2 minutes longer AND got 2 spines out of it AND got baneling nest along with roach tech and got +1 range attack. Quite simply, Idra's timing attack failed. Then, when things diverged AGAIN, Zenio stayed light on roaches, opting to use more lings and a few banes to conserve gas, and was on 3 gas long before Idra was. So he got way ahead in gas both because less roaches and more gas mining. THEN he dropped a spire and tech switched to muta. This was not luck. This was not a coinflip. This was not an unavoidable loss. Idra could have easily sent an overseer to scout. Idra easily could have built some speedlings to make a more aggressive attempt to scout Zenio's army composition rather than just relying on roach pokes to see the tip of Zenio's units. Idra had all day to figure out what was going on. Instead, Idra threw up a third and tried to drone it up and went for the absolutely typical roach/infestor composition. So basically, Game 2 Zenio had brilliant brilliant counter builds to Idra's 21h roach/ling timing attack, then a brilliant timing attack of his own to hit Idra in the TINY TINY window that a straight up roach mass 3 base infestor build is vulnerable to. And Idra repeatedly telegraphed what HE had by sending ALL his roaches in his scouting pokes. Thereby giving his opponent more info than he gained with HIS scouting attempts. The epitome of stupid. i agree w/ most of what you said about g2. idra was the aggressor with roach/ling. iirc he went for zenio's nat hatch, and then he lost his lings to zenio's blings, which snowballed into idra losing all of his roaches. zenio was actually droning up a bit before idra's attack, too. | ||
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:27 Chicane wrote: How was it purely luck? He said in an interview that when he watched many replays Nestea ALWAYS went 15 hatch all the time against zerg. It WAS a build order win, but Dimaga was nearly positive that Nestea would go 15 hatch, so why not punish it? Please explain how that is luck? yes please explain I would like to know your reasoning as well  | ||
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StorkHwaiting
United States3465 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:28 dave333 wrote: Unfortunately, Idra didn't scout enough. Idra is goddamn good when it comes to standard play. Few players can beat him at that. So the burden is on HIM to scout meticulously against players who deviate from standard play in an attempt to beat him. The other player predicts idras style easily; he can then try to counter it by going with something risky and nonstandard. It is up to Idra to realize to figure out how to be safe against that, OR to take a risk himself. First game was BO loss, pretty simple. If I were idra though, I probably wouldn't go hatch first, especially without a 9 drone scout. He knows people like to cheese/try to tilt him, he has to play especially safe IMO. Then again, Zenio is a step above guys like mana, where Idra can play safe and then still catch up and win. Equally matched players in ZvZ does have some build order stuff that needs to be dealt with unfortunately. There's no such thing as "standard" play. The metagame is changing all the time. Roach/ling timing attack like Idra did is popular right now, but it's by no means "standard" play. It's just what's trendy and predictable right now. A few months ago, 1 base bane/sling wars were "standard" play. It's just rubbish to try to claim Idra is some fantastic gosu "standard" player. He's not. He's predictable. That doesn't make him great. That's always been his problem as a player. He spends all his time and effort on practicing his execution of a few builds and not enough time on exploring other ones. It's a weakness. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:29 Oscatron wrote: is idra out of nasl 1? yes, but he qualifies for next season i hear. | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:31 Golgotha wrote: yes please explain I would like to know your reasoning as well it's hard to argue against 0-6 in a mirror matchup but idra fanboys manage to find a way somehow; almost feel they're worse than idra himself when giving credit to the opponent for the win just give credit where credit is due and move on with it | ||
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Moralez
Portugal1857 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:31 Golgotha wrote: yes please explain I would like to know your reasoning as well Stop stalking me every time someone doesnt agree with me, do you feel the need to have people by your side to argue with someone? thats just sad. lol. | ||
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toadyy
United Kingdom179 Posts
He saw Lair with a zergling He didn't scout with an Overlord He missed the fungal that could of changed the game He got completely outplayed On top of this, in both games his zergling micro was horrendous he lost alot of zerglings because of this poor control to just one baneling multiple times. If you think this is some sort of unscoutable coinflip BO loss. You should probably consider uninstalling the game. It's amazing how some of you can defend idrA to the hills when he plays completely horrendous and gets outplayed. Can you not appreciate Zenios good play rather than trying to give idrA 101 excuses why zvz is imbalanced and that if the game was fair he would win every game. Well played and well deserved by Zenio. | ||
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Harrow
United States245 Posts
Heads: Idra is TERRIBLE and is a loser basement dwelling rager with no skill or results to his name, he is so ridiculously overhyped when in reality he's basically a gold-level scrub. or Tails: Idra is easily the BEST player outside of Korea (and much better than most of the koreans!) who just wants to play the game the way God intended, his BM is just PR genius and/or a keen understanding of the terrible balance in SC2. If the coin lands on its side, someone might say that he's a pretty damn good, though not perfect, player who is held back by some issues with the way he approaches the game. | ||
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TheHova
United Kingdom2612 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:26 StorkHwaiting wrote: The SC2 crowd has a lot of chobos. SC1 crowd was winnowed down to mostly hardcore fans who appreciate the game and the skill involved in playing it. Nowadays, there's lots of casual tards running around TL who are more interested in building up cults of personality rather than actual analysis of the game. Likely because they're unable to analyze it. I just think it's a shame. Because it's so extremely painful getting anything constructive out of a LR thread these days. These things used to be great, but now you have to make your way through 50 bad posts to find 3 good ones. I don't mind people not understanding the game, that is completely reasonable. But when you try and educate them on it and they just refuse to listen to you it gets annoying. I can completely understand people disagreeing with me or others, but when they can't put up a decent argument to why their opinion is right and mine is wrong. That's just stupid and fills up the entire thread with shit that just doesn't need to be there. TL in the BW days was so serious about quality posting and quality control. It's a shame as we got bigger (which i know we did need to happen because i remember Kennigit and Victor mentioning it) standards have had to slip because of the sheer amount of new people. | ||
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jexxto
United Kingdom284 Posts
I don't see how game 2 was not a standard game, there no was no obvious early cheese, both players had a back n' forth slugfest with very little in the game. Zenio made the decision to cut back on roach production yet still remain agressive with map presence, which in turn gave him the intel that IdrA was at the very least going pretty roach heavy (could clearly see IdrA had the larger roach count). He then goes into mutas and with good timing and IdrA failing on the fungal (which is probably due to him being riled up from the banter at the start of the game) and wins the games. It seemed very standard to me. It's almost as if IdrA fans are implying that the only time a game is standard is when IdrA wins. That or a standard game has to have a strict unit composition and build order, which is ludicrous and would make sc2 a very boring game to watch. Even the commentators were commenting on what a great position IdrA was in due to it being his kind of game now, a macro heavy one, after the initial back n' forth. That was until the spire + pooled gas/supply became apparent. To be fair, alarm bells should start rining when your opponents roach count is that small, you have to presume that gas is going somewhere. | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
1. Koreans are well known for custom tailoring builds and tactics to face specific opponents. 2. Idra is well known for despising cheese, and loosing important matches to it. 3. Idra is well known for going on tilt and loosing focus when he makes a big mistake or he is beaten by cheese, which leads to more mistakes. 4. It is well known that idra is phenomenal at macro play and believes it is the only proper way to play starcraft. So when a top class player is going to face Idra, he takes all of these things into account. Prepares his builds, for the whole series, with all of this in mind. Boxer did it, Zenio did it, even Nazgul did it at MLG in 2010. It's hardly a coinflip, it's well thought out, well executed, potent play targeted at one specifec person. | ||
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bobwhiz
United States725 Posts
Landed on it's edge, Harrow. | ||
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Ocedic
United States1808 Posts
On June 16 2011 12:32 Moralez wrote: Stop stalking me every time someone doesnt agree with me, do you feel the need to have people by your side to argue with someone? thats just sad. lol. Calling ZvZ (or any matchup) a coin flip is just a cop out. It's more likely you don't understand the matchup well enough. If it were a coin flip, then players like Nestea wouldn't have 90% win rates. In fact, if your theory was true then all Zerg players would have around 50% ratio in ZvZ. Basically you're trying to claim that you have equal chances of beating Nestea as you do a Silver league player in ZvZ. That's flat out stupid. | ||
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