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On June 16 2011 12:18 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 12:14 iamho wrote:On June 16 2011 12:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On June 16 2011 12:08 TYJ.Aoy wrote:On June 16 2011 12:04 d(O.o)a wrote:On June 16 2011 12:02 TYJ.Aoy wrote:On June 16 2011 11:59 L3g3nd_ wrote:
why is there so much idra bashing? people obviously dont understand what just happened I ain't surprised to see a hater of actually good players like Polt or MKP being a IdrA fancutsy, to be honest it makes total sense. I'm not a hater of any pro gamers but I don't disagree with Idra's no-gg, he has nothing to gain from typing it and everything to gain from not-typing it. If he had said gg and left the game both times do you think the LR thread would be blowing up like this? Like I said, chances are Machine just stole his g key. Sure he has something to gain from typing it, it's called respect, ask actual progammers around instead of american teenagers and you will know what respected people think of Idra. he apparently prefers money over respect. and everyone time he bm's someone, he creates a shit-ton of hype for himself, which turns into money for his pocket. smartest thing he can do is keeping bm'ing everyone to make more money. Do you really think IdrA bms because he's trying to create hype for himself? He bms because he's pissed and raging hard behind his computer. He was like that even in BW when being popular didn't make him any $$. no. i think he is upset. but at the end of the day, if he couldnt make money because of his bm, he would stop it. as of now, i think he is making more money with his bm because of how much attention he gets. any publicity is good publicity. idra bms and fifteen new threads are made.
No, he wouldn't stop, that's who he is, he is not a PR genius, he's been a raging cutie pie since the dawn of times and that's an ipso facto.
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On June 16 2011 12:16 Ansinjunger wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 12:07 Blacktion wrote:
Zenio has 14 mutas grouped together.
Idra casts fungal growth, hits 1 of them.
"Earn your GG"
He seriously needs to sort his shit out, no big wins for ages, BMs when he loses and cries imba.
I wouldnt be bothered if he was some no name but the most famous players have a respnsibility to the game to make it interesting and exciting. Idra does pretty much the oposite of these things.
Also, not sure how it works with the playoffs, is idra out of the whole thing now? That's not entirely fair. While I agree Idra should have gg'd Boxer because he's Boxer in addition to the general desirability of showing good manners, his BM like this is always entertaining and maintain interest in Idra win or lose. Just look at the old HD/Husky games of Idra and they have 50% or more additional views than the rest of their videos. How many other players do people really watch to see them go down in flames (maybe TheBest)? Yeah there was excitement with foreigners vs Koreans at MLG, but that was just rooting for the underdog / home team, etc., plus a little bit of anti-MC fans as he's probably the most drama-inducing Korean in SC2 atm.
I dont agree that idras BM is entertaining at all. All i see when i see idras BM is a player who got a taste of success (King of the Beta/MLG) and cant deal with the fact that hes not going to be tasting it again for a long time (if ever).
BM can be funny, but you have to put a bit of effort in. Idra doesnt BM for comedy value, he does it to keep attention on himself, and because he wants to whine about a perceived imbalance, which strangely enough better players than him seem to overcome.
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Who coined the term "coinflip?" I want to know, because I haven't even remotely heard anyone say anything about coinflips until I visited this thread.
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On June 16 2011 12:21 Jibba wrote:
The bigger story is just that in ZvZ, a match where IdrA is by all means awesome, he got completely worked by Zenio. That's what people should be talking about, Zenio's awesome decision.
thank you! Zenio completely read IdrA in the 2nd game and he punished IdrA for the fast hatch (also for IdrA's macro tendencies) with quick aggression. But people keep saying that Zenio's play is a non-factor because ZvZ is just a coinflip. ZvZ ain't a coin flip, period.
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On June 16 2011 12:21 Jibba wrote:
It saddens me that the 'gg talk' is still the driving conversation topic. :/ We've had this debate for probably a year now, since HDH made an overinflated issue out of it, and there's really nothing left to discuss.
The bigger story is just that in ZvZ, a match where IdrA is by all means awesome, he got completely worked by Zenio. That's what people should be talking about, Zenio's excellent play.
When Jaedong got his quick spire vs Stork in G2 on Katrina at the EVER 2007 finals, the discussion wasn't about it being a stupid all in or anything else. It was HOLY FUCK JAEDONG IS THE GODDAMN MAN THAT WAS AMAZING, and that's what this discussion should be imo.
I pretty much said this earlier, It's sad  .
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United States23455 Posts
What do you expect? Idra doesn't practice that much and Zenio works his bones to the limit to get better. Add in the fact Zenio is arguably already the better play, the better practice partners and better living infrastructure to get better, it's no surprise Idra got worked.
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Blah... ZvZ is bullshit matchup, though IdrA did some mistakes, boy needs to calm his nerves.
Sad to not see him come through... so no more IdrA in the NASL?
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On June 16 2011 12:23 TYJ.Aoy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 12:18 dAPhREAk wrote:On June 16 2011 12:14 iamho wrote:On June 16 2011 12:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On June 16 2011 12:08 TYJ.Aoy wrote:On June 16 2011 12:04 d(O.o)a wrote:On June 16 2011 12:02 TYJ.Aoy wrote:On June 16 2011 11:59 L3g3nd_ wrote:
why is there so much idra bashing? people obviously dont understand what just happened I ain't surprised to see a hater of actually good players like Polt or MKP being a IdrA fancutsy, to be honest it makes total sense. I'm not a hater of any pro gamers but I don't disagree with Idra's no-gg, he has nothing to gain from typing it and everything to gain from not-typing it. If he had said gg and left the game both times do you think the LR thread would be blowing up like this? Like I said, chances are Machine just stole his g key. Sure he has something to gain from typing it, it's called respect, ask actual progammers around instead of american teenagers and you will know what respected people think of Idra. he apparently prefers money over respect. and everyone time he bm's someone, he creates a shit-ton of hype for himself, which turns into money for his pocket. smartest thing he can do is keeping bm'ing everyone to make more money. Do you really think IdrA bms because he's trying to create hype for himself? He bms because he's pissed and raging hard behind his computer. He was like that even in BW when being popular didn't make him any $$. no. i think he is upset. but at the end of the day, if he couldnt make money because of his bm, he would stop it. as of now, i think he is making more money with his bm because of how much attention he gets. any publicity is good publicity. idra bms and fifteen new threads are made. No, he wouldn't stop, that's who he is, he is not a PR genius, he's been a raging cutie pie since the dawn of times and that's an ipso facto.
Ya I also agree that he would continue to do all his BM stuff... unless management told him not to, and forced him not to by paying him less or something like that. As it stands, no one stops him because of the publicity he gains.
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On June 16 2011 12:22 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Look, as a master zerg player I think it's really really easy to see how Idra lost.
First game, big map, so ofc Idra goes 15h because he's a greedy macro player. Zenio guesses correctly and simply does a 9p and rapes it. 15h > 14e14p > 9p > 15h is the basic ZvZ dynamic.
Second game, Idra just got 9p so he's scared to go 15h again, so ofc he goes 14e14p which is middle of the road build. Zenio does the same because he's confident he's a better player than Idra. You see how that works? He doesn't go greedy econ build because he thinks he's better. He goes the SAME middle of the road.
Then, Idra diverges into 21/22h roach/ling timing attack. Zenio, with his earlier banes, intelligently identifies what Idra is going for and drops 2 spines and uses banes/lings to ward Idra off long enough to get enough larvae to wipe out the timing attack. Idra was already WAY behind after doing this timing attack! He caught up in drones sure, but Zenio had the same drone count for 2 minutes longer AND got 2 spines out of it AND got baneling nest along with roach tech and got +1 range attack. Quite simply, Idra's timing attack failed.
Then, when things diverged AGAIN, Zenio stayed light on roaches, opting to use more lings and a few banes to conserve gas, and was on 3 gas long before Idra was. So he got way ahead in gas both because less roaches and more gas mining. THEN he dropped a spire and tech switched to muta.
This was not luck. This was not a coinflip. This was not an unavoidable loss. Idra could have easily sent an overseer to scout. Idra easily could have built some speedlings to make a more aggressive attempt to scout Zenio's army composition rather than just relying on roach pokes to see the tip of Zenio's units. Idra had all day to figure out what was going on.
Instead, Idra threw up a third and tried to drone it up and went for the absolutely typical roach/infestor composition.
So basically, Game 2 Zenio had brilliant brilliant counter builds to Idra's 21h roach/ling timing attack, then a brilliant timing attack of his own to hit Idra in the TINY TINY window that a straight up roach mass 3 base infestor build is vulnerable to.
And Idra repeatedly telegraphed what HE had by sending ALL his roaches in his scouting pokes. Thereby giving his opponent more info than he gained with HIS scouting attempts. The epitome of stupid.
Thank you.
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On June 16 2011 12:22 DrakeFZX3 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 12:18 Moralez wrote:On June 16 2011 12:17 Itsmedudeman wrote:On June 16 2011 12:14 Moralez wrote:On June 16 2011 12:13 Golgotha wrote:On June 16 2011 12:10 Moralez wrote:On June 16 2011 12:09 jj33 wrote:
hahahaha moralez,
you are such a moron
zenio outplayed idra so bad in game 2. and yea he's so lucky to beat idra like everytime, maybe zenio should play the lottery.
like i said, I bet you're in bronze. you don't even know what a "build order" win is. newbs like you probably never watched bw and have 0 understanding of rts in general.
Im pretty sure mods will be watching this type of childish comments. And no Im top 8 masters, maybe you're the one in bronze  lol moralez sorry if we offended you but just because we are bringing up legit arguments against you doesn't mean they are childish :D I mean come on, if ZvZ is such a coin flip then how come IdrA is 0-6 to Zenio? if ZvZ is a coin flip then why isn't Nestea's GSL ZvZ win-rate 50%? Think before you talk. So you're using Nestea ( best zerg in the world) to compensate all the others? lol dude just stop trying. And again, you proove to be a hater im pretty sure calling someone ' moron ' in a middle of a discussion is being childish. Maybe you're childish aswell and dont comprehend this kind of things so we're not able to argue using the highest level of examples to prove that ZvZ isn't a coinflip when nestea is playing against the other best players in korea? not even sure what to say at this point Read what i said about nestea, hes pretty good but hes lost vs other zerg because of coin flips . Coinflip implies that what Dimaga did was purely luck and not based off what he saw. And you're discrediting Dimaga's win over NesTea. NesTea was goin Hatch first all the time and Dimaga punished him for it. And Zenio's 6-0 against Idra is not luck or "coinflip" no matter how much you say it.
Yes and it was purely luck in that game, im not discrediting dimagas win, thats just pure ZvZ logic that you simply dont know.
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On June 16 2011 12:24 TheHova wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 12:21 Jibba wrote:
It saddens me that the 'gg talk' is still the driving conversation topic. :/ We've had this debate for probably a year now, since HDH made an overinflated issue out of it, and there's really nothing left to discuss.
The bigger story is just that in ZvZ, a match where IdrA is by all means awesome, he got completely worked by Zenio. That's what people should be talking about, Zenio's excellent play.
When Jaedong got his quick spire vs Stork in G2 on Katrina at the EVER 2007 finals, the discussion wasn't about it being a stupid all in or anything else. It was HOLY FUCK JAEDONG IS THE GODDAMN MAN THAT WAS AMAZING, and that's what this discussion should be imo. I pretty much said this earlier, It's sad .
The SC2 crowd has a lot of chobos. SC1 crowd was winnowed down to mostly hardcore fans who appreciate the game and the skill involved in playing it. Nowadays, there's lots of casual tards running around TL who are more interested in building up cults of personality rather than actual analysis of the game. Likely because they're unable to analyze it.
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The no gg talk here is Totally Legitimate, since Zenio specifically Asked, "Where's the gg?" Idra replied, "Earn it."
If the Korean demands a GG, then certainly the viewers can debate it. Based on the result, Zenio certainly should get the GG.
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On June 16 2011 12:15 TYJ.Aoy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 12:11 Nagano wrote:On June 16 2011 12:09 fartdra wrote:
idra is the lebron of sc2 Sadly, this is a good analogy for the gracken. Lebron is actually top tier, which Idra never really was ( i.e GSL/courage finalist/semi-finalist tier).
Idra has actually won some things, which is more than one can say about LeBron (e.g., King of the Beta, MLG, IPL).
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On June 16 2011 12:23 TYJ.Aoy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 12:18 dAPhREAk wrote:On June 16 2011 12:14 iamho wrote:On June 16 2011 12:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On June 16 2011 12:08 TYJ.Aoy wrote:On June 16 2011 12:04 d(O.o)a wrote:On June 16 2011 12:02 TYJ.Aoy wrote:On June 16 2011 11:59 L3g3nd_ wrote:
why is there so much idra bashing? people obviously dont understand what just happened I ain't surprised to see a hater of actually good players like Polt or MKP being a IdrA fancutsy, to be honest it makes total sense. I'm not a hater of any pro gamers but I don't disagree with Idra's no-gg, he has nothing to gain from typing it and everything to gain from not-typing it. If he had said gg and left the game both times do you think the LR thread would be blowing up like this? Like I said, chances are Machine just stole his g key. Sure he has something to gain from typing it, it's called respect, ask actual progammers around instead of american teenagers and you will know what respected people think of Idra. he apparently prefers money over respect. and everyone time he bm's someone, he creates a shit-ton of hype for himself, which turns into money for his pocket. smartest thing he can do is keeping bm'ing everyone to make more money. Do you really think IdrA bms because he's trying to create hype for himself? He bms because he's pissed and raging hard behind his computer. He was like that even in BW when being popular didn't make him any $$. no. i think he is upset. but at the end of the day, if he couldnt make money because of his bm, he would stop it. as of now, i think he is making more money with his bm because of how much attention he gets. any publicity is good publicity. idra bms and fifteen new threads are made. No, he wouldn't stop, that's who he is, he is not a PR genius, he's been a raging cutie pie since the dawn of times and that's an ipso facto.
well, he should cry himself to sleep in his silk sheets. what a failure! at the end of the day, idra is making a ton of money even if he doesn't win. similar to how destiny is making a ton of money even though he doesnt win anything.
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Idra cant even take games off koreans with the lag advantage anymore lol. Hes probably having flashbacks to getting owned in bw when he thought he be on equal footing with koreans in sc2. Cant really blame the guy for not gging
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As long as Idra keeps getting uptight about non-standard stuff and choosing to ignore variables in the game, I fear he'll just keep getting rolled when it's crunch time. Not to mention the strength of his mental state...
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On June 16 2011 12:18 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 12:14 iamho wrote:On June 16 2011 12:12 dAPhREAk wrote:On June 16 2011 12:08 TYJ.Aoy wrote:On June 16 2011 12:04 d(O.o)a wrote:On June 16 2011 12:02 TYJ.Aoy wrote:On June 16 2011 11:59 L3g3nd_ wrote:
why is there so much idra bashing? people obviously dont understand what just happened I ain't surprised to see a hater of actually good players like Polt or MKP being a IdrA fancutsy, to be honest it makes total sense. I'm not a hater of any pro gamers but I don't disagree with Idra's no-gg, he has nothing to gain from typing it and everything to gain from not-typing it. If he had said gg and left the game both times do you think the LR thread would be blowing up like this? Like I said, chances are Machine just stole his g key. Sure he has something to gain from typing it, it's called respect, ask actual progammers around instead of american teenagers and you will know what respected people think of Idra. he apparently prefers money over respect. and everyone time he bm's someone, he creates a shit-ton of hype for himself, which turns into money for his pocket. smartest thing he can do is keeping bm'ing everyone to make more money. Do you really think IdrA bms because he's trying to create hype for himself? He bms because he's pissed and raging hard behind his computer. He was like that even in BW when being popular didn't make him any $$. no. i think he is upset. but at the end of the day, if he couldnt make money because of his bm, he would stop it. as of now, i think he is making more money with his bm because of how much attention he gets. any publicity is good publicity. idra bms and fifteen new threads are made.
I dont see how people talking in threads makes him money, most people are pissed off about it. Thats going to make less people watch his stream not more, any publicity is good publicity is pretty stupid , sure maybe you will be famous but you lose alot of respect. Does idra really see himself as the paris hilton or lindsay lohan of the gaming world, where he does shitty things just to get attention? Lohan is broke as a joke right now these things catch up with people. How many more times are people even going to care weather he gg's or not? Soon its going to be "oh hes playing a korea he wont gg" Sure people may say something if its someone like boxer like thats so disrespectful or something, I dont see how he has anything to gain fromm doing this i honestly think less peoplewould watch his stream not more, especially because hes been losing in these horrible fashions recently. If hes doing really really well, and loses a game here or there but doesnt gg thats a different story.
Its funny how he gg's everyone else in the league but wont GG the koreans, does he have some sort of resentment towards them? I understand him not gg'ing zenio alot more than boxer i mean the guys dont really like each other at all, so i wasnt really surprised about that, but boxer? no respect...... no respect.
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On June 16 2011 12:25 Moralez wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2011 12:22 DrakeFZX3 wrote:On June 16 2011 12:18 Moralez wrote:On June 16 2011 12:17 Itsmedudeman wrote:On June 16 2011 12:14 Moralez wrote:On June 16 2011 12:13 Golgotha wrote:On June 16 2011 12:10 Moralez wrote:On June 16 2011 12:09 jj33 wrote:
hahahaha moralez,
you are such a moron
zenio outplayed idra so bad in game 2. and yea he's so lucky to beat idra like everytime, maybe zenio should play the lottery.
like i said, I bet you're in bronze. you don't even know what a "build order" win is. newbs like you probably never watched bw and have 0 understanding of rts in general.
Im pretty sure mods will be watching this type of childish comments. And no Im top 8 masters, maybe you're the one in bronze lol moralez sorry if we offended you but just because we are bringing up legit arguments against you doesn't mean they are childish :D I mean come on, if ZvZ is such a coin flip then how come IdrA is 0-6 to Zenio? if ZvZ is a coin flip then why isn't Nestea's GSL ZvZ win-rate 50%? Think before you talk. So you're using Nestea ( best zerg in the world) to compensate all the others? lol dude just stop trying. And again, you proove to be a hater im pretty sure calling someone ' moron ' in a middle of a discussion is being childish. Maybe you're childish aswell and dont comprehend this kind of things so we're not able to argue using the highest level of examples to prove that ZvZ isn't a coinflip when nestea is playing against the other best players in korea? not even sure what to say at this point Read what i said about nestea, hes pretty good but hes lost vs other zerg because of coin flips . Coinflip implies that what Dimaga did was purely luck and not based off what he saw. And you're discrediting Dimaga's win over NesTea. NesTea was goin Hatch first all the time and Dimaga punished him for it. And Zenio's 6-0 against Idra is not luck or "coinflip" no matter how much you say it. Yes and it was purely luck in that game, im not discrediting dimagas win, thats just pure ZvZ logic that you simply dont know.
How was it purely luck? He said in an interview that when he watched many replays Nestea ALWAYS went 15 hatch all the time against zerg. It WAS a build order win, but Dimaga was nearly positive that Nestea would go 15 hatch, so why not punish it?
Please explain how that is luck?
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This coinflip talk just discredits the smarter player.
Sure there is a little guessing involved, but getting an educated guess right 6 out of 6 times sure beats getting it wrong 6 out of 6 times. I just don't see how people still insist on IdrA being the better player.
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Unfortunately, Idra didn't scout enough. Idra is goddamn good when it comes to standard play. Few players can beat him at that. So the burden is on HIM to scout meticulously against players who deviate from standard play in an attempt to beat him. The other player predicts idras style easily; he can then try to counter it by going with something risky and nonstandard. It is up to Idra to realize to figure out how to be safe against that, OR to take a risk himself.
First game was BO loss, pretty simple. If I were idra though, I probably wouldn't go hatch first, especially without a 9 drone scout. He knows people like to cheese/try to tilt him, he has to play especially safe IMO.
Then again, Zenio is a step above guys like mana, where Idra can play safe and then still catch up and win. Equally matched players in ZvZ does have some build order stuff that needs to be dealt with unfortunately.
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EPT
