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United Kingdom38149 Posts
On December 22 2010 22:39 MrCon wrote:
Zerg lose, whine/balance/QQ ensue. History repeating.
Eh, I don't have any investment in the ZvT match up whatsoever, but you've just watched 5 of the best zergs in the world (including 2 gsl champions) take a whole 1 game off a single Terran over the course of 5 bo3's. MvP is undoubtedly a good player but, given the maps, that was a whole lot more one sided than I think it should ever have been.
Certainly there's cause for discussion and wondering what Zerg could hypothetically do about it.
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On December 22 2010 22:39 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:30 wintergt wrote:On December 22 2010 22:24 Ultramus wrote:
As a zerg I really have no idea how you are supposed to beat marine tank like that, seriously, it's freaking ridiculous. God the baneling unit completely fucked zerg in this game. So disappointing to see Idra ahead in food all game long and then a small group of stimmed marines kills double the amount of mutas, ridiculous. I really want to see a terran come and tell me how you are supposed to stop that, it seems like zerg's have tried every possible unit composition to no avail. How do you figure that? All I saw zergs do was ling/baneling/muta. (and once there were a few infestors, and one game a few roaches). From MVP we saw marine+tank+medivac, marine+marauder (no tanks), marine+marauder+tank+medivac, marine+tank+battlecruisers, hellion+marauder.. he had more variety than the zergs! edit: and banshees now and then, and thors ling baneling muta is "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine tank. mutas get the marines out of position by harassing. they also pick off tanks and medivacs and also deal damage during battles. lings take out tanks and surround marines. banelings deal burst damage to destroy marines. thing is, the direct counter is countered by what its supposed to counter. marines pick off mutas, siege tanks kill off lings and banelings. all the meanwhile, terran is earning as much income while on less bases, going higher up the tech tree much faster, and is allowed to harass early game with almost no consequences (as long as its not all in). zergs need to think of a new counter or at least tactic to beat tank marine since the "counter" cant.
the thing is that terran has a reaaaaly hard time doing hard transitions (you can add stuff but 3 rax don't become 3 factorys, they become dead weight) so if you ever give zerg an actual counter he's won already.
terran has the army, zerg has to try to whittle it down and harass cost effectively enough to come out ahead with it's superior econ and mobility.
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On December 22 2010 22:44 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:39 MrCon wrote:
Zerg lose, whine/balance/QQ ensue. History repeating. Eh, I don't have any investment in the ZvT match up whatsoever, but you've just watched 5 of the best zergs in the world (including 2 gsl champions) take a whole 1 game off a single Terran over the course of 5 bo3's. MvP is undoubtedly a good player but, given the maps, that was a whole lot more one sided than I think it should ever have been. Certainly there's cause for discussion and wondering what Zerg could do about it.
Beautiful post, I fully agree.
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On December 22 2010 22:39 MrCon wrote:
Zerg lose, whine/balance/QQ ensue. History repeating.
Such an insightful response. So tell me what is this huge secret that the best zergs in the world don't know hmm? I'd really LOVE to hear an answer. I want anyone to watch those games and tell me something isn't wrong. Idra played that game literally as perfect as you could, I cannot fathom a better way he could have done that and it showed in the fact that he was ~20 food ahead through the whole game till that push. I want to know what other options he had in that position? Considering you are complaining that we are whining I'm sure you have an answer, no?
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On December 22 2010 22:39 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:30 wintergt wrote:On December 22 2010 22:24 Ultramus wrote:
As a zerg I really have no idea how you are supposed to beat marine tank like that, seriously, it's freaking ridiculous. God the baneling unit completely fucked zerg in this game. So disappointing to see Idra ahead in food all game long and then a small group of stimmed marines kills double the amount of mutas, ridiculous. I really want to see a terran come and tell me how you are supposed to stop that, it seems like zerg's have tried every possible unit composition to no avail. How do you figure that? All I saw zergs do was ling/baneling/muta. (and once there were a few infestors, and one game a few roaches). From MVP we saw marine+tank+medivac, marine+marauder (no tanks), marine+marauder+tank+medivac, marine+tank+battlecruisers, hellion+marauder.. he had more variety than the zergs! edit: and banshees now and then, and thors ling baneling muta is "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine tank. mutas get the marines out of position by harassing. they also pick off tanks and medivacs and also deal damage during battles. lings take out tanks and surround marines. banelings deal burst damage to destroy marines. thing is, the direct counter is countered by what its supposed to counter. marines pick off mutas, siege tanks kill off lings and banelings. all the meanwhile, terran is earning as much income while on less bases, going higher up the tech tree much faster, and is allowed to harass early game with almost no consequences (as long as its not all in). zergs need to think of a new counter or at least tactic to beat tank marine since the "counter" cant.
Why is ling/bling/muta "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine/tank? You can easily argue the opposite, in fact, that is exactly what you did in your post.
Point is, the game keeps revolving. In GSL 3 we had a very large amount of zerg qualifiers, everyone was expecting ZvZ finals because zerg seemed so dominant. And protoss was considered the weakest of the bunch. But what happened? Zergs were eliminated fast, and a protoss played strong, with MC totally dominating. And the TvZ's in the GSL were mostly allins, because "terran can't play macro games vs zerg, it's broken after early game". Yes read that again. So now we have a terran beat zergs in straight up macro games. See how quickly the game evolves? So please don't jump to such early conclusions.
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On December 22 2010 22:44 Asha` wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:39 MrCon wrote:
Zerg lose, whine/balance/QQ ensue. History repeating. Eh, I don't have any investment in the ZvT match up whatsoever, but you've just watched 5 of the best zergs in the world (including 2 gsl champions) take a whole 1 game off a single Terran over the course of 5 bo3's. MvP is undoubtedly a good player but, given the maps, that was a whole lot more one sided than I think it should ever have been. Certainly there's cause for discussion and wondering what Zerg could hypothetically do about it.
ofcourse it's time to think what zerg can do about it.
not start the terrans inba train again.
if it is imbalanced it will get fixed or it won't; they have statistics at all levels, lets how they use them visely. there are enough opinions flying around to justify changin anything like making marines 3 food or having them pop 2for1 like lings.
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On December 22 2010 22:46 Grebliv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:39 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:On December 22 2010 22:30 wintergt wrote:On December 22 2010 22:24 Ultramus wrote:
As a zerg I really have no idea how you are supposed to beat marine tank like that, seriously, it's freaking ridiculous. God the baneling unit completely fucked zerg in this game. So disappointing to see Idra ahead in food all game long and then a small group of stimmed marines kills double the amount of mutas, ridiculous. I really want to see a terran come and tell me how you are supposed to stop that, it seems like zerg's have tried every possible unit composition to no avail. How do you figure that? All I saw zergs do was ling/baneling/muta. (and once there were a few infestors, and one game a few roaches). From MVP we saw marine+tank+medivac, marine+marauder (no tanks), marine+marauder+tank+medivac, marine+tank+battlecruisers, hellion+marauder.. he had more variety than the zergs! edit: and banshees now and then, and thors ling baneling muta is "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine tank. mutas get the marines out of position by harassing. they also pick off tanks and medivacs and also deal damage during battles. lings take out tanks and surround marines. banelings deal burst damage to destroy marines. thing is, the direct counter is countered by what its supposed to counter. marines pick off mutas, siege tanks kill off lings and banelings. all the meanwhile, terran is earning as much income while on less bases, going higher up the tech tree much faster, and is allowed to harass early game with almost no consequences (as long as its not all in). zergs need to think of a new counter or at least tactic to beat tank marine since the "counter" cant. the thing is that terran has a reaaaaly hard time doing hard transitions (you can add stuff but 3 rax don't become 3 factorys, they become dead weight) so if you ever give zerg an actual counter he's won already. terran has the army, zerg has to try to whittle it down and harass cost effectively enough to come out ahead with it's superior econ and mobility.
You just witnessed the best Zergs in the world attempt to harass "cost effectively" They were ahead in both you suggested and still lost.
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Are there going to be vods shown???
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On December 22 2010 22:49 FataLe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:46 Grebliv wrote:On December 22 2010 22:39 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:On December 22 2010 22:30 wintergt wrote:On December 22 2010 22:24 Ultramus wrote:
As a zerg I really have no idea how you are supposed to beat marine tank like that, seriously, it's freaking ridiculous. God the baneling unit completely fucked zerg in this game. So disappointing to see Idra ahead in food all game long and then a small group of stimmed marines kills double the amount of mutas, ridiculous. I really want to see a terran come and tell me how you are supposed to stop that, it seems like zerg's have tried every possible unit composition to no avail. How do you figure that? All I saw zergs do was ling/baneling/muta. (and once there were a few infestors, and one game a few roaches). From MVP we saw marine+tank+medivac, marine+marauder (no tanks), marine+marauder+tank+medivac, marine+tank+battlecruisers, hellion+marauder.. he had more variety than the zergs! edit: and banshees now and then, and thors ling baneling muta is "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine tank. mutas get the marines out of position by harassing. they also pick off tanks and medivacs and also deal damage during battles. lings take out tanks and surround marines. banelings deal burst damage to destroy marines. thing is, the direct counter is countered by what its supposed to counter. marines pick off mutas, siege tanks kill off lings and banelings. all the meanwhile, terran is earning as much income while on less bases, going higher up the tech tree much faster, and is allowed to harass early game with almost no consequences (as long as its not all in). zergs need to think of a new counter or at least tactic to beat tank marine since the "counter" cant. the thing is that terran has a reaaaaly hard time doing hard transitions (you can add stuff but 3 rax don't become 3 factorys, they become dead weight) so if you ever give zerg an actual counter he's won already. terran has the army, zerg has to try to whittle it down and harass cost effectively enough to come out ahead with it's superior econ and mobility. You just witnessed the best Zergs in the world attempt to harass "cost effectively" They were ahead in both you suggested and still lost.
They attacked the army head-on, from one direction.
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On December 22 2010 22:49 wintergt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:39 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:On December 22 2010 22:30 wintergt wrote:On December 22 2010 22:24 Ultramus wrote:
As a zerg I really have no idea how you are supposed to beat marine tank like that, seriously, it's freaking ridiculous. God the baneling unit completely fucked zerg in this game. So disappointing to see Idra ahead in food all game long and then a small group of stimmed marines kills double the amount of mutas, ridiculous. I really want to see a terran come and tell me how you are supposed to stop that, it seems like zerg's have tried every possible unit composition to no avail. How do you figure that? All I saw zergs do was ling/baneling/muta. (and once there were a few infestors, and one game a few roaches). From MVP we saw marine+tank+medivac, marine+marauder (no tanks), marine+marauder+tank+medivac, marine+tank+battlecruisers, hellion+marauder.. he had more variety than the zergs! edit: and banshees now and then, and thors ling baneling muta is "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine tank. mutas get the marines out of position by harassing. they also pick off tanks and medivacs and also deal damage during battles. lings take out tanks and surround marines. banelings deal burst damage to destroy marines. thing is, the direct counter is countered by what its supposed to counter. marines pick off mutas, siege tanks kill off lings and banelings. all the meanwhile, terran is earning as much income while on less bases, going higher up the tech tree much faster, and is allowed to harass early game with almost no consequences (as long as its not all in). zergs need to think of a new counter or at least tactic to beat tank marine since the "counter" cant. Why is ling/bling/muta "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine/tank? You can easily argue the opposite, in fact, that is exactly what you did in your post. Point is, the game keeps revolving. In GSL 3 we had a very large amount of zerg qualifiers, everyone was expecting ZvZ finals because zerg seemed so dominant. And protoss was considered the weakest of the bunch. But what happened? Zergs were eliminated fast, and a protoss played strong, with MC totally dominating. And the TvZ's in the GSL were mostly allins, because "terran can't play macro games vs zerg, it's broken after early game". Yes read that again. So now we have a terran beat zergs in straight up macro games. See how quickly the game evolves? So please don't jump to such early conclusions.
Thats the point. that the units zerg makes to counter marine tank... doesn't really counter it at all. Ling / Banelin / Mutas rely on the Terran to make a mistake. Mismicroing marines, unseiging tanks. But if the terran doesn't make a mistake, then he beats the counter with the original unit composition. You're hoping and praying the opponent makes a mistake on a Pro level. Theres no other matchup of compositions where one side plays perfectly and has to still rely on luck in order to win.
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On December 22 2010 22:46 Grebliv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:39 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:On December 22 2010 22:30 wintergt wrote:On December 22 2010 22:24 Ultramus wrote:
As a zerg I really have no idea how you are supposed to beat marine tank like that, seriously, it's freaking ridiculous. God the baneling unit completely fucked zerg in this game. So disappointing to see Idra ahead in food all game long and then a small group of stimmed marines kills double the amount of mutas, ridiculous. I really want to see a terran come and tell me how you are supposed to stop that, it seems like zerg's have tried every possible unit composition to no avail. How do you figure that? All I saw zergs do was ling/baneling/muta. (and once there were a few infestors, and one game a few roaches). From MVP we saw marine+tank+medivac, marine+marauder (no tanks), marine+marauder+tank+medivac, marine+tank+battlecruisers, hellion+marauder.. he had more variety than the zergs! edit: and banshees now and then, and thors ling baneling muta is "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine tank. mutas get the marines out of position by harassing. they also pick off tanks and medivacs and also deal damage during battles. lings take out tanks and surround marines. banelings deal burst damage to destroy marines. thing is, the direct counter is countered by what its supposed to counter. marines pick off mutas, siege tanks kill off lings and banelings. all the meanwhile, terran is earning as much income while on less bases, going higher up the tech tree much faster, and is allowed to harass early game with almost no consequences (as long as its not all in). zergs need to think of a new counter or at least tactic to beat tank marine since the "counter" cant. the thing is that terran has a reaaaaly hard time doing hard transitions (you can add stuff but 3 rax don't become 3 factorys, they become dead weight) so if you ever give zerg an actual counter he's won already. terran has the army, zerg has to try to whittle it down and harass cost effectively enough to come out ahead with it's superior econ and mobility.
How can you harass when the terran is giving every option to completely shut it down. PFs and missile turrets with repair are ridiculous. And considering the mineral surplus mules give they always have the money to invest in enough missile turrets. I could understand if you would lose if the investment in mutalisks wasn't able to do damage, but mutalisks just happen to be the best unit to make versus that comp. I don't think anyone will say with a straight face that roach hydra beats that army, it doesn't.
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On December 22 2010 22:51 Dingotrold wrote:
They attacked the army head-on, from one direction.
As opposed to what? Base racing with mutalisks vs marine tank. How are people like you even allowed on the forums.
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On December 22 2010 22:46 Grebliv wrote:
the thing is that terran has a reaaaaly hard time doing hard transitions (you can add stuff but 3 rax don't become 3 factorys, they become dead weight) so if you ever give zerg an actual counter he's won already.
Protoss routinely open 3gate into 2star into 2robo against zerg. Similar build times for terran tech structures (slightly faster w/o addon or if they are getting swapped onto addon, slightly longer if they build it), similar costs. Terran absolutely can do it. And some do.
The current TvZ play isn't forced by lack of options. Its done because it has as of late had a ridiculous win-rate.
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ofcourse it's time to think what zerg can do about it.
not start the terrans inba train again.
This is the right way to think about things. Can we please try to focus more on strategy and less on balance. Marine + tank is pretty even with baneling + muta. However well the mutas harass and force stims tip the scale in one way or another. Adding in infestors makes it a super-hard counter. I didn't watch the games, but one 5 game winning streak doesn't mean the games broken. It's just time for those zergs to sit down and get to work to find some good timings to get infestors out or whatever else they can think of that would be more effective.
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On December 22 2010 22:54 Ultramus wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:51 Dingotrold wrote:
They attacked the army head-on, from one direction. As opposed to what? Base racing with mutalisks vs marine tank. How are people like you even allowed on the forums.
Huh? You don't think flanking is possible on scrap station? In my opinion, it's just retarded to claim that the zergs played perfectly. There are an infinite number of possibilities - the composition Zergs went for has been the best vs T so far, that doesn't mean it's perfect.
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On December 22 2010 22:46 Grebliv wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:39 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:On December 22 2010 22:30 wintergt wrote:On December 22 2010 22:24 Ultramus wrote:
As a zerg I really have no idea how you are supposed to beat marine tank like that, seriously, it's freaking ridiculous. God the baneling unit completely fucked zerg in this game. So disappointing to see Idra ahead in food all game long and then a small group of stimmed marines kills double the amount of mutas, ridiculous. I really want to see a terran come and tell me how you are supposed to stop that, it seems like zerg's have tried every possible unit composition to no avail. How do you figure that? All I saw zergs do was ling/baneling/muta. (and once there were a few infestors, and one game a few roaches). From MVP we saw marine+tank+medivac, marine+marauder (no tanks), marine+marauder+tank+medivac, marine+tank+battlecruisers, hellion+marauder.. he had more variety than the zergs! edit: and banshees now and then, and thors ling baneling muta is "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine tank. mutas get the marines out of position by harassing. they also pick off tanks and medivacs and also deal damage during battles. lings take out tanks and surround marines. banelings deal burst damage to destroy marines. thing is, the direct counter is countered by what its supposed to counter. marines pick off mutas, siege tanks kill off lings and banelings. all the meanwhile, terran is earning as much income while on less bases, going higher up the tech tree much faster, and is allowed to harass early game with almost no consequences (as long as its not all in). zergs need to think of a new counter or at least tactic to beat tank marine since the "counter" cant. the thing is that terran has a reaaaaly hard time doing hard transitions (you can add stuff but 3 rax don't become 3 factorys, they become dead weight) so if you ever give zerg an actual counter he's won already. terran has the army, zerg has to try to whittle it down and harass cost effectively enough to come out ahead with it's superior econ and mobility.
terran doesnt need to transition into anything when they have 1 unit that counters everything (marine)
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wish idra's 7 pool wit drones woulda worked <3
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On December 22 2010 22:59 Lfyre wrote:
wish idra's 7 pool wit drones woulda worked <3
it worked on his stream last night
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United Arab Emirates492 Posts
On December 22 2010 22:14 Liquid`Ret wrote:
where is avilo now
Hahaha :D,
nice1 Ret
Atleast this shuts up people who swore that the TvZ heavily favored Zerg.
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On December 22 2010 22:52 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:Show nested quote +On December 22 2010 22:49 wintergt wrote:On December 22 2010 22:39 CalmDown.Breathe wrote:On December 22 2010 22:30 wintergt wrote:On December 22 2010 22:24 Ultramus wrote:
As a zerg I really have no idea how you are supposed to beat marine tank like that, seriously, it's freaking ridiculous. God the baneling unit completely fucked zerg in this game. So disappointing to see Idra ahead in food all game long and then a small group of stimmed marines kills double the amount of mutas, ridiculous. I really want to see a terran come and tell me how you are supposed to stop that, it seems like zerg's have tried every possible unit composition to no avail. How do you figure that? All I saw zergs do was ling/baneling/muta. (and once there were a few infestors, and one game a few roaches). From MVP we saw marine+tank+medivac, marine+marauder (no tanks), marine+marauder+tank+medivac, marine+tank+battlecruisers, hellion+marauder.. he had more variety than the zergs! edit: and banshees now and then, and thors ling baneling muta is "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine tank. mutas get the marines out of position by harassing. they also pick off tanks and medivacs and also deal damage during battles. lings take out tanks and surround marines. banelings deal burst damage to destroy marines. thing is, the direct counter is countered by what its supposed to counter. marines pick off mutas, siege tanks kill off lings and banelings. all the meanwhile, terran is earning as much income while on less bases, going higher up the tech tree much faster, and is allowed to harass early game with almost no consequences (as long as its not all in). zergs need to think of a new counter or at least tactic to beat tank marine since the "counter" cant. Why is ling/bling/muta "supposed" to be the hard counter to marine/tank? You can easily argue the opposite, in fact, that is exactly what you did in your post. Point is, the game keeps revolving. In GSL 3 we had a very large amount of zerg qualifiers, everyone was expecting ZvZ finals because zerg seemed so dominant. And protoss was considered the weakest of the bunch. But what happened? Zergs were eliminated fast, and a protoss played strong, with MC totally dominating. And the TvZ's in the GSL were mostly allins, because "terran can't play macro games vs zerg, it's broken after early game". Yes read that again. So now we have a terran beat zergs in straight up macro games. See how quickly the game evolves? So please don't jump to such early conclusions. Thats the point. that the units zerg makes to counter marine tank... doesn't really counter it at all. Ling / Banelin / Mutas rely on the Terran to make a mistake. Mismicroing marines, unseiging tanks. But if the terran doesn't make a mistake, then he beats the counter with the original unit composition. You're hoping and praying the opponent makes a mistake on a Pro level. Theres no other matchup of compositions where one side plays perfectly and has to still rely on luck in order to win.
That's actually a good thing.
It's a clear sign that Starcraft 2 evovles and stoppes beeing "you build unit x, i build y, i win"
We're coming to a point were skill overcomes this.
I don't want to say its balance or imbalanced, i just want to point out, that you can overcome
unit counters with control is fantastic.
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EPT
