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On January 04 2017 08:27 Gwavajuice wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2017 02:35 Hyper1 wrote:On January 02 2017 12:38 MLuneth wrote:
How do you guys beat super late skyterran? Like bc/raven/viking with a few tanks to slowly push back cannons?
At the moment, pretty much nothing works against late game sky terran. BC's effectively have no counter. Tempests are 'suppose' to counter them, but unless you have at least 12 tempest, you'll lose the engagement. At which point they'll just add a raven for point defense drone and your Tempest are worthless. The only way to win is to kill them before they get to BC, or have massively higher army supply and take good engagements. But you don't have mules, so having more supply isn't likely. I've seen even a lot of pro's struggle against this, and not find a solid way to fight it. A lot of terran going this style will turtle to BC, then warp them around to harass your bases with them. As far as carriers against this, BC armor is too high, the high attack rate/low damage of interceptors deals next to no damage to BC's. I know this answer sucks, and I hate it also, but your best option is to kill them before they get to BC. Tempest and Carriers are ofc terrible choice vs BC. But the voidray actually works when in huge numbers. It's all about the yamamoto mechanics : in low numbers, BC will manage to yamamoto every voidray with ease. But when its mass voidray vs mass BC, the yamamoto casting time is long enough to allow voidrays to kill the BC. So it's all about the engagement. My personal best is a 17 BC army (with 2 ravens) killed thanks to voidrays. If he has vikings you add archons. So late game plan is : Mass void ray to kill the BC, mix in some archons if needed, and ofc DT/chargelot for harass and kill bases.
No voidrays are terrible against terran unless he amoves pure BCs across the map.
As a terran I laugh every time my opponent masses voids.
Turrets, wms seeker missile all destroy the low ranged voids.
A mix of Tempests and carriers with ht support is the answer.
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Why do people go disruptors instead of colossi nowdays?
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On January 04 2017 16:30 Fealthas wrote:
Why do people go disruptors instead of colossi nowdays?
colossus are still a reliable source of damage, especially versus current meta ling bane hydra and always been good versus marines, but distruptors if used correctly gives a greater advantage when shots lands.
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On January 04 2017 16:30 Fealthas wrote:
Why do people go disruptors instead of colossi nowdays?
As a zerg player who used to play hydra lurker ling, disruptors were the best counter. With diruptors I only could engage where the diruptors aren't (dropping a small force so that the disruptors go there and I can engage where my main force is).
Which is why I switched to ling bane compositions (hydra ling bane or ravager ling bane), where the diruptors lose their value, and countered best by archon storm.
So I see collossi lately, but I guess a toss who doesn't scout prefer blind countering lurkers. (ling bane compositions are hard to play)
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On January 04 2017 16:30 Fealthas wrote:
Why do people go disruptors instead of colossi nowdays?
Disruptors are more effective in most cases, can strike burrowed/cloaked units, and can't be targeted by Air-to-Air units.
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I haven't faced it yet, but how do we hold off proxy factory into double cyclone? I saw it in NW4 and I feel like I'm going to run into it a lot more on ladder, so I was curious how to deal with it. I'm guessing it will finish up around the same time as my cyber, so I'll only have gateway units and a MSC to deal with it.
So assuming I scout it before it hits, I can probably have 2-3 gateways, and a MSC. I can stall with PO, but what gateway units do I build? Zealots will just get kited and killed. Stalkers will get shredded. That leaves me with adepts and sentries. Will adepts be able to deal with them?
EDIT: I just used the unit tester to see what would happen given 2 cyclones and a marine, against 2 adepts a sentry, and a MSC and Guardian Shield helps a lot. So I'm pretty sure that's the way to go.
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On January 08 2017 07:22 Hyper1 wrote:
I haven't faced it yet, but how do we hold off proxy factory into double cyclone? I saw it in NW4 and I feel like I'm going to run into it a lot more on ladder, so I was curious how to deal with it. I'm guessing it will finish up around the same time as my cyber, so I'll only have gateway units and a MSC to deal with it.
So assuming I scout it before it hits, I can probably have 2-3 gateways, and a MSC. I can stall with PO, but what gateway units do I build? Zealots will just get kited and killed. Stalkers will get shredded. That leaves me with adepts and sentries. Will adepts be able to deal with them?
If it's proxy factory i just cancel my nexus and build 2 extra gates + chrono warpgate, get a couple stalkers out of my 1st gate (not sure how many is best), then add an msc and a robo. Warpgate should finish around the same time as robo so you can switch the chrono for immortals.
With pylons at the top of the ramp, stalkers and focus fire you should be able to gain enough time for immortals which will shut this down.
Depending on how far he commits you can have a sentry to force field.
You want to know when he transitions and move out asap, make sure the proxy is dead/lift off, then kill him with a counter with 2 immortals and a warp prism. Considering he proxied he can't have enough production to handle the counter at this point
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Tool#2722 (EU) add me if you need any help with Protoss matchups in general or any other race mu. I'm here to help.
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How do you deal with a doom drop in your main late game? I played a terran and was winning on upgrades, army comp, and econ. He couldn't take an engage, so he doom dropped me with his entire army. My army was by my 3rd/4th to defend those, and my MSC was at home to defend normal drops. He wiped out all my higher tech, and I was back only able to make zealots.
So far the answers I've been given are to go into a base trade against the terran, to make HT's on top of Robo and SG T3 units and leave them at home just in case of a doom drop, or you can't deal with all actions a terran player can make so just hope they don't do that if you're winning the engagements.
Please tell me there's a better way to deal with this than to take a third T3 tech path just to deal with terran mobility, and keeping more of my supply back at my base at all times just in case.
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On January 11 2017 04:18 Hyper1 wrote:
How do you deal with a doom drop in your main late game? I played a terran and was winning on upgrades, army comp, and econ. He couldn't take an engage, so he doom dropped me with his entire army. My army was by my 3rd/4th to defend those, and my MSC was at home to defend normal drops. He wiped out all my higher tech, and I was back only able to make zealots.
So far the answers I've been given are to go into a base trade against the terran, to make HT's on top of Robo and SG T3 units and leave them at home just in case of a doom drop, or you can't deal with all actions a terran player can make so just hope they don't do that if you're winning the engagements.
Please tell me there's a better way to deal with this than to take a third T3 tech path just to deal with terran mobility, and keeping more of my supply back at my base at all times just in case.
It'd be cool if you could post the replay, but better map control and positionning would solve your problem easily.
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On December 04 2015 15:12 AmericanUmlaut wrote:Sweet! So glad to see the LotV version of this thread  My current burning LotV question: I've been running into a few Terrans who do a Liberator push at like 4:00 after I go Nexus first. What is an effective strategy for handling that? It's very hard to scout the lack of a natural on maps with a pocket expo, since T can wall off, and by the time an Observer gets over after a fast expansion I don't have a heck of a lot of time to react.
Stargate is a great option for holding all ins, 2-3 pheonix destroy the siege tank / cyclone / liberator pushes, lift the tank and kill the liberator, you can poke it a bit then use the pheonix to cut off reinforcements whilst 2 pylons at the nat stops the all in with overcharge. A few pheonix are good at stopping all ins, this works for me to a high master/ low gm level.
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How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran.
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On January 17 2017 01:42 DreamOen wrote:
How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran.
What rank are you? What builds are you doing? What do you have trouble against in the matchup?
Seems like top level is definitely struggling in PvT right now but it shouldn't affect lower leagues.
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Im also having some issue versus terrans lately.
I usually play really agressive, this way I take control of game pace and force opponent to play at my rules.
Lately I can't do that anymore since I still didn't found any way to be aggressive versus terran; they defend really well and with low resources from anything.
At master level, oracle does absolutly poor to no damage at all, even killing 3-4 scvs isn't a big deal. Adept drops, if prism manage to survive, is just waste of minerals and apms.
I had some results usings dt drops, but this strategy is good only large maps, where terran pressure comes a bit later than usual timings.
I tried to play defensive like we see in recent tournament, going colossus on 2 bases then taking third, but terrans just manage to do so much damage no matter what with drops, libs, mines. Hardest thing for me is defend early multiprong attack around 7 minute mark, usually a drop in main plus an attack to third base with bio/mines/libs.
Pylon get insta killed, and I need whole army to defend from drop or from third pressure. Also I feel like pvt is luck based, like if i'm opening stalker for drops and he do tanks it's autoloose, if I go adept as first units and he goes for drops it's autoloose, if I tech robo I have less units for frontal push...early scout is pretty impossible with adept nerf. So my question is:
is there any real aggressive style versus terran, wich hits with some good pressure around 4:30/5 min to safely tech and delay terran?
Is there any viable opening that let protoss stay safe from anything terran can throw you?
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The issue in PvT (for me) is how do you come out on top against their mid game push. I.e. Bio, 1 or 2 liberator and maybe 1 or 2 tanks.
Whenever I do early pressure I feel like you throw early resources into the tech that if you do no damage, you are late on colossus tech and basically will struggle.
I do the 2 base colossus build all the time and find it just comes down to how well you defend. If you deny the 2 widow mine drops and defend the front you will most likely be so far ahead you counter attack and win.
Personally I don't know how it's even possible on a consistent basis to defend all the harassment. I feel like unless u have a observer and stalker over each base a mine will get dropped and with perfect splitting you lose 1 probe. So really your going to lose 2 probes between your main and nat regardless (plus lost mining time).
It's probably a meta thing, some way some players excel during certain periods of time in their careers, the meta atm requires strong drop defend from toss. If you are an aggressive player, you'll probably struggle more than before.
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On January 17 2017 01:42 DreamOen wrote:
How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran.
I've been wondering the same thing. My PvP rate is 60-70, my PvZ rate is 80, and my PvT rate has been floating around 10. It's nothing specific that gets me, regardless of the build I try, it seems to have no effect. It's no specific army comp from them either, they just build whatever, and it always wins. The only time I win is when I play drastically better than they do. Better econ, higher tech, larger army, better upgrades... If I'm missing even one I lose the game. No matter what I do I can never seem to get a cost effective engagement. Unless I give all of my focus and attention into trying to blink, shade drop FF and guardian shield, while maneuvering my army and focus firing all at the same time, it's unlikely I'll come out ahead. All of that is to face an army that's just sitting there at that.
Even if I win that, whatever he's putting his attention to instead of his army, will kill me. Whether it's focusing on drops, or at home macroing, unless I can do twice as much as he possibly can, he's going to be ahead.
I've tried watching pro's play, or watching tournaments around my level, but sadly there aren't many games of a protoss winning that doesn't involve him just massively outplaying his opponent. I watched a tournament yesterday where the quarter finals came down to 7 terran and a zerg, the zerg lost in the first matchup and I stopped watching, lol. Before then no protoss ever beat a terran.
I've just given up until something changed. The last day I laddered I played 19 games, and 15 were terran, and thus losses. I beat the 2 zerg and 2 protoss I faces though, lol.
On January 17 2017 05:49 Weltall wrote:
Pylon get insta killed, and I need whole army to defend from drop or from third pressure. Also I feel like pvt is luck based, like if i'm opening stalker for drops and he do tanks it's autoloose, if I go adept as first units and he goes for drops it's autoloose, if I tech robo I have less units for frontal push...early scout is pretty impossible with adept nerf. So my question is:
is there any real aggressive style versus terran, wich hits with some good pressure around 4:30/5 min to safely tech and delay terran?
Is there any viable opening that let protoss stay safe from anything terran can throw you?
I open every game the same, gateway expand into robo. I can't open 2 gate because there's no way I'll get anything done with it. If I don't open robo I'll never get observers out in time to spot drops coming, or widow mines. If I open oracle I can't get anything done, then the widow mine drop is terrible because I have to fly back to revalate, and then hope I have the energy to, but I definitely won't have enough for 2. I've been facing a lot of viking play as well. So opening SG I get crushed, but if I build colossus I die to. Then landed vikings hit crazy hard against basically everything protoss with that bonus damage. I can never seem to get DT's to work because even if they don't have missile turrets down, they have scan. Trying to harass later game isn't any easier, once they start making PF's there's really no option to get work done. That thing would kill your entire army before you got much done, a run by won't do anything. And reguardless how 'OP' our PO might be, it's worthless when your pylon dies in seconds, or you have to have your MSC protecting 5 bases.
I also agree with needing your full army just to stop a drop, one medivac is bad enough, a double is worse, and it's not hard for a terran to take 1-2 medivacs, load up and fly out at a moments notice then a-move into another base. A full round of warp ins won't stop a single drop. Unless you've got 8 free gateways, and can warp in like 5 adepts and 3 stalkers, and have blink and resonating glaives, they're going to get a lot of damage done. Wait, even with that, they're going to trade cost effectively and kill a ton of stuff just in the time it takes you to warp in, because stim, lol. Meanwhile while trying not to lose your main base to the drop, your army is probably walking in to liberators, tanks, and mines...
But most importantly, don't forget. If people think protoss might be strong, they'll get nerfed immediately. If terran are destroying protoss to the point that even casters are pointing out how insane it is, blizzard is just going to wait and see how the meta plays out...
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In pvp, if your opening is standard 2 base blink immortal while the opponent does 2 base 7 or 8 gates immortal adept allin, do you warp in blink stalkers or adepts(without glaives) to defend? And generally what are the correct responses? Adding to 6 gates and slowly teching to disruptors? How about a forge? Adding it at the same time as robo bay or skipping it until your 3rd?
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On January 17 2017 14:05 OPDream wrote:
In pvp, if your opening is standard 2 base blink immortal while the opponent does 2 base 7 or 8 gates immortal adept allin, do you warp in blink stalkers or adepts(without glaives) to defend? And generally what are the correct responses? Adding to 6 gates and slowly teching to disruptors? How about a forge? Adding it at the same time as robo bay or skipping it until your 3rd?
Stalkers, and a probe at the top of your main ramp wall to pylon block if he starts trying to shade in.
If he shades everything on top of your army you can overcharge all pylons and blink away to start kiting and use your range advantage.
If he baits overcharges one at time and pokes at the front it gains you time for disruptors, and you can buy even more time by warpin in sentrys if the choke of your natural is small.
No idea about the forge timing i still kinda wing it when i play pvp x) (something along the lines of "i have a spare 150 minerals let's make a forge!")
If facing an allin i wouldn't expect to be able to afford +1 while going disruptors and warping stalkers on 2 bases though.
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On January 17 2017 02:06 ArtyK wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 01:42 DreamOen wrote:
How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran. What rank are you? What builds are you doing? What do you have trouble against in the matchup? Seems like top level is definitely struggling in PvT right now but it shouldn't affect lower leagues.
Actually this guy sums my style and situation really well. On January 17 2017 09:44 Hyper1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 01:42 DreamOen wrote:
How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran. I've been wondering the same thing. My PvP rate is 60-70, my PvZ rate is 80, and my PvT rate has been floating around 10. It's nothing specific that gets me, regardless of the build I try, it seems to have no effect. It's no specific army comp from them either, they just build whatever, and it always wins. The only time I win is when I play drastically better than they do. Better econ, higher tech, larger army, better upgrades... If I'm missing even one I lose the game. No matter what I do I can never seem to get a cost effective engagement. Unless I give all of my focus and attention into trying to blink, shade drop FF and guardian shield, while maneuvering my army and focus firing all at the same time, it's unlikely I'll come out ahead. All of that is to face an army that's just sitting there at that. Even if I win that, whatever he's putting his attention to instead of his army, will kill me. Whether it's focusing on drops, or at home macroing, unless I can do twice as much as he possibly can, he's going to be ahead. I've tried watching pro's play, or watching tournaments around my level, but sadly there aren't many games of a protoss winning that doesn't involve him just massively outplaying his opponent. I watched a tournament yesterday where the quarter finals came down to 7 terran and a zerg, the zerg lost in the first matchup and I stopped watching, lol. Before then no protoss ever beat a terran. I've just given up until something changed. The last day I laddered I played 19 games, and 15 were terran, and thus losses. I beat the 2 zerg and 2 protoss I faces though, lol. Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 05:49 Weltall wrote:
Pylon get insta killed, and I need whole army to defend from drop or from third pressure. Also I feel like pvt is luck based, like if i'm opening stalker for drops and he do tanks it's autoloose, if I go adept as first units and he goes for drops it's autoloose, if I tech robo I have less units for frontal push...early scout is pretty impossible with adept nerf. So my question is:
is there any real aggressive style versus terran, wich hits with some good pressure around 4:30/5 min to safely tech and delay terran?
Is there any viable opening that let protoss stay safe from anything terran can throw you? I open every game the same, gateway expand into robo. I can't open 2 gate because there's no way I'll get anything done with it. If I don't open robo I'll never get observers out in time to spot drops coming, or widow mines. If I open oracle I can't get anything done, then the widow mine drop is terrible because I have to fly back to revalate, and then hope I have the energy to, but I definitely won't have enough for 2. I've been facing a lot of viking play as well. So opening SG I get crushed, but if I build colossus I die to. Then landed vikings hit crazy hard against basically everything protoss with that bonus damage. I can never seem to get DT's to work because even if they don't have missile turrets down, they have scan. Trying to harass later game isn't any easier, once they start making PF's there's really no option to get work done. That thing would kill your entire army before you got much done, a run by won't do anything. And reguardless how 'OP' our PO might be, it's worthless when your pylon dies in seconds, or you have to have your MSC protecting 5 bases. I also agree with needing your full army just to stop a drop, one medivac is bad enough, a double is worse, and it's not hard for a terran to take 1-2 medivacs, load up and fly out at a moments notice then a-move into another base. A full round of warp ins won't stop a single drop. Unless you've got 8 free gateways, and can warp in like 5 adepts and 3 stalkers, and have blink and resonating glaives, they're going to get a lot of damage done. Wait, even with that, they're going to trade cost effectively and kill a ton of stuff just in the time it takes you to warp in, because stim, lol. Meanwhile while trying not to lose your main base to the drop, your army is probably walking in to liberators, tanks, and mines... But most importantly, don't forget. If people think protoss might be strong, they'll get nerfed immediately. If terran are destroying protoss to the point that even casters are pointing out how insane it is, blizzard is just going to wait and see how the meta plays out...
I would love some help
P.D. Oh and I am on 4600~ mmr Diamond toss.
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On January 17 2017 22:49 DreamOen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 02:06 ArtyK wrote:On January 17 2017 01:42 DreamOen wrote:
How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran. What rank are you? What builds are you doing? What do you have trouble against in the matchup? Seems like top level is definitely struggling in PvT right now but it shouldn't affect lower leagues. Actually this guy sums my style and situation really well. Show nested quote +On January 17 2017 09:44 Hyper1 wrote:On January 17 2017 01:42 DreamOen wrote:
How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran. I've been wondering the same thing. My PvP rate is 60-70, my PvZ rate is 80, and my PvT rate has been floating around 10. It's nothing specific that gets me, regardless of the build I try, it seems to have no effect. It's no specific army comp from them either, they just build whatever, and it always wins. The only time I win is when I play drastically better than they do. Better econ, higher tech, larger army, better upgrades... If I'm missing even one I lose the game. No matter what I do I can never seem to get a cost effective engagement. Unless I give all of my focus and attention into trying to blink, shade drop FF and guardian shield, while maneuvering my army and focus firing all at the same time, it's unlikely I'll come out ahead. All of that is to face an army that's just sitting there at that. Even if I win that, whatever he's putting his attention to instead of his army, will kill me. Whether it's focusing on drops, or at home macroing, unless I can do twice as much as he possibly can, he's going to be ahead. I've tried watching pro's play, or watching tournaments around my level, but sadly there aren't many games of a protoss winning that doesn't involve him just massively outplaying his opponent. I watched a tournament yesterday where the quarter finals came down to 7 terran and a zerg, the zerg lost in the first matchup and I stopped watching, lol. Before then no protoss ever beat a terran. I've just given up until something changed. The last day I laddered I played 19 games, and 15 were terran, and thus losses. I beat the 2 zerg and 2 protoss I faces though, lol. On January 17 2017 05:49 Weltall wrote:
Pylon get insta killed, and I need whole army to defend from drop or from third pressure. Also I feel like pvt is luck based, like if i'm opening stalker for drops and he do tanks it's autoloose, if I go adept as first units and he goes for drops it's autoloose, if I tech robo I have less units for frontal push...early scout is pretty impossible with adept nerf. So my question is:
is there any real aggressive style versus terran, wich hits with some good pressure around 4:30/5 min to safely tech and delay terran?
Is there any viable opening that let protoss stay safe from anything terran can throw you? I open every game the same, gateway expand into robo. I can't open 2 gate because there's no way I'll get anything done with it. If I don't open robo I'll never get observers out in time to spot drops coming, or widow mines. If I open oracle I can't get anything done, then the widow mine drop is terrible because I have to fly back to revalate, and then hope I have the energy to, but I definitely won't have enough for 2. I've been facing a lot of viking play as well. So opening SG I get crushed, but if I build colossus I die to. Then landed vikings hit crazy hard against basically everything protoss with that bonus damage. I can never seem to get DT's to work because even if they don't have missile turrets down, they have scan. Trying to harass later game isn't any easier, once they start making PF's there's really no option to get work done. That thing would kill your entire army before you got much done, a run by won't do anything. And reguardless how 'OP' our PO might be, it's worthless when your pylon dies in seconds, or you have to have your MSC protecting 5 bases. I also agree with needing your full army just to stop a drop, one medivac is bad enough, a double is worse, and it's not hard for a terran to take 1-2 medivacs, load up and fly out at a moments notice then a-move into another base. A full round of warp ins won't stop a single drop. Unless you've got 8 free gateways, and can warp in like 5 adepts and 3 stalkers, and have blink and resonating glaives, they're going to get a lot of damage done. Wait, even with that, they're going to trade cost effectively and kill a ton of stuff just in the time it takes you to warp in, because stim, lol. Meanwhile while trying not to lose your main base to the drop, your army is probably walking in to liberators, tanks, and mines... But most importantly, don't forget. If people think protoss might be strong, they'll get nerfed immediately. If terran are destroying protoss to the point that even casters are pointing out how insane it is, blizzard is just going to wait and see how the meta plays out... I would love some help P.D. Oh and I am on 4600~ mmr Diamond toss.
Not sure how much my style would help, i'm still using Zest's mass gateway from last year, then into storm and tempests.
Plus i'm random and i've played like 3 PvT in the last month...
So i open with twilight-robo before gate 2&3, get blink and observers, one for the msc in main, one with the stalkers at the natural, and extra obs if needed to scout or spot medivacs from afar.
Fast third, warp prism to harass with 3 adepts, glaive when blink finishes, and then only adepts from the gates when i reach 12-16 stalkers.
When armies get bigger you want to keep shading on the terran to scare him and gain time, and when you finally take a fight you need to split the shades on top of the bio to limit mine splash, then blink in to focus liberators.
It's literally what i've been winning with in PvT for a year (was my best matchup out of all 9 for several months so i never felt like changing build and worked on other matchups), but with how many pvt games i played on the latest patch i can't really say if it still works that well.
I'll send a replay here if i manage to play a decent game (but apparently the dice never rolls a protoss when i play against terran :p)
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EPT
