On January 17 2017 01:42 DreamOen wrote: How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran.
What rank are you? What builds are you doing? What do you have trouble against in the matchup?
Seems like top level is definitely struggling in PvT right now but it shouldn't affect lower leagues.
Actually this guy sums my style and situation really well.
On January 17 2017 01:42 DreamOen wrote: How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran.
I've been wondering the same thing. My PvP rate is 60-70, my PvZ rate is 80, and my PvT rate has been floating around 10. It's nothing specific that gets me, regardless of the build I try, it seems to have no effect. It's no specific army comp from them either, they just build whatever, and it always wins. The only time I win is when I play drastically better than they do. Better econ, higher tech, larger army, better upgrades... If I'm missing even one I lose the game. No matter what I do I can never seem to get a cost effective engagement. Unless I give all of my focus and attention into trying to blink, shade drop FF and guardian shield, while maneuvering my army and focus firing all at the same time, it's unlikely I'll come out ahead. All of that is to face an army that's just sitting there at that.
Even if I win that, whatever he's putting his attention to instead of his army, will kill me. Whether it's focusing on drops, or at home macroing, unless I can do twice as much as he possibly can, he's going to be ahead.
I've tried watching pro's play, or watching tournaments around my level, but sadly there aren't many games of a protoss winning that doesn't involve him just massively outplaying his opponent. I watched a tournament yesterday where the quarter finals came down to 7 terran and a zerg, the zerg lost in the first matchup and I stopped watching, lol. Before then no protoss ever beat a terran.
I've just given up until something changed. The last day I laddered I played 19 games, and 15 were terran, and thus losses. I beat the 2 zerg and 2 protoss I faces though, lol.
On January 17 2017 05:49 Weltall wrote: Pylon get insta killed, and I need whole army to defend from drop or from third pressure. Also I feel like pvt is luck based, like if i'm opening stalker for drops and he do tanks it's autoloose, if I go adept as first units and he goes for drops it's autoloose, if I tech robo I have less units for frontal push...early scout is pretty impossible with adept nerf. So my question is: is there any real aggressive style versus terran, wich hits with some good pressure around 4:30/5 min to safely tech and delay terran? Is there any viable opening that let protoss stay safe from anything terran can throw you?
I open every game the same, gateway expand into robo. I can't open 2 gate because there's no way I'll get anything done with it. If I don't open robo I'll never get observers out in time to spot drops coming, or widow mines. If I open oracle I can't get anything done, then the widow mine drop is terrible because I have to fly back to revalate, and then hope I have the energy to, but I definitely won't have enough for 2. I've been facing a lot of viking play as well. So opening SG I get crushed, but if I build colossus I die to. Then landed vikings hit crazy hard against basically everything protoss with that bonus damage. I can never seem to get DT's to work because even if they don't have missile turrets down, they have scan. Trying to harass later game isn't any easier, once they start making PF's there's really no option to get work done. That thing would kill your entire army before you got much done, a run by won't do anything. And reguardless how 'OP' our PO might be, it's worthless when your pylon dies in seconds, or you have to have your MSC protecting 5 bases.
I also agree with needing your full army just to stop a drop, one medivac is bad enough, a double is worse, and it's not hard for a terran to take 1-2 medivacs, load up and fly out at a moments notice then a-move into another base. A full round of warp ins won't stop a single drop. Unless you've got 8 free gateways, and can warp in like 5 adepts and 3 stalkers, and have blink and resonating glaives, they're going to get a lot of damage done. Wait, even with that, they're going to trade cost effectively and kill a ton of stuff just in the time it takes you to warp in, because stim, lol. Meanwhile while trying not to lose your main base to the drop, your army is probably walking in to liberators, tanks, and mines...
But most importantly, don't forget. If people think protoss might be strong, they'll get nerfed immediately. If terran are destroying protoss to the point that even casters are pointing out how insane it is, blizzard is just going to wait and see how the meta plays out...
I would love some help P.D. Oh and I am on 4600~ mmr Diamond toss.
Here s a guide to a simple PvT macro safe build :
Stats has been using a similar build in IEM geonngy vs Maru on Echo (macro version) and Overgrowth (more agressive version) check this games, both the vods and the replays are available.
Basically Stats version is the same opening than in the vod except he goes for thermal lance and build 3 colossi before swtiching to disruptors. AZfter taking his 4th he also adds 2 stargates for tempests and a dark shrine, but at taht point you can do your own stuff (2nd robo, HT, and so on)
This style is very safe against early/midgame shenanigans (cyclone push, 2bases tanks all-ins, ..)
On January 17 2017 01:42 DreamOen wrote: How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran.
What rank are you? What builds are you doing? What do you have trouble against in the matchup?
Seems like top level is definitely struggling in PvT right now but it shouldn't affect lower leagues.
Actually this guy sums my style and situation really well.
On January 17 2017 09:44 Hyper1 wrote:
On January 17 2017 01:42 DreamOen wrote: How do you win vs terran? is anyone here a good PvT'er or is everyone on the same page? I am on 30% win rate vs terran.
I've been wondering the same thing. My PvP rate is 60-70, my PvZ rate is 80, and my PvT rate has been floating around 10. It's nothing specific that gets me, regardless of the build I try, it seems to have no effect. It's no specific army comp from them either, they just build whatever, and it always wins. The only time I win is when I play drastically better than they do. Better econ, higher tech, larger army, better upgrades... If I'm missing even one I lose the game. No matter what I do I can never seem to get a cost effective engagement. Unless I give all of my focus and attention into trying to blink, shade drop FF and guardian shield, while maneuvering my army and focus firing all at the same time, it's unlikely I'll come out ahead. All of that is to face an army that's just sitting there at that.
Even if I win that, whatever he's putting his attention to instead of his army, will kill me. Whether it's focusing on drops, or at home macroing, unless I can do twice as much as he possibly can, he's going to be ahead.
I've tried watching pro's play, or watching tournaments around my level, but sadly there aren't many games of a protoss winning that doesn't involve him just massively outplaying his opponent. I watched a tournament yesterday where the quarter finals came down to 7 terran and a zerg, the zerg lost in the first matchup and I stopped watching, lol. Before then no protoss ever beat a terran.
I've just given up until something changed. The last day I laddered I played 19 games, and 15 were terran, and thus losses. I beat the 2 zerg and 2 protoss I faces though, lol.
On January 17 2017 05:49 Weltall wrote: Pylon get insta killed, and I need whole army to defend from drop or from third pressure. Also I feel like pvt is luck based, like if i'm opening stalker for drops and he do tanks it's autoloose, if I go adept as first units and he goes for drops it's autoloose, if I tech robo I have less units for frontal push...early scout is pretty impossible with adept nerf. So my question is: is there any real aggressive style versus terran, wich hits with some good pressure around 4:30/5 min to safely tech and delay terran? Is there any viable opening that let protoss stay safe from anything terran can throw you?
I open every game the same, gateway expand into robo. I can't open 2 gate because there's no way I'll get anything done with it. If I don't open robo I'll never get observers out in time to spot drops coming, or widow mines. If I open oracle I can't get anything done, then the widow mine drop is terrible because I have to fly back to revalate, and then hope I have the energy to, but I definitely won't have enough for 2. I've been facing a lot of viking play as well. So opening SG I get crushed, but if I build colossus I die to. Then landed vikings hit crazy hard against basically everything protoss with that bonus damage. I can never seem to get DT's to work because even if they don't have missile turrets down, they have scan. Trying to harass later game isn't any easier, once they start making PF's there's really no option to get work done. That thing would kill your entire army before you got much done, a run by won't do anything. And reguardless how 'OP' our PO might be, it's worthless when your pylon dies in seconds, or you have to have your MSC protecting 5 bases.
I also agree with needing your full army just to stop a drop, one medivac is bad enough, a double is worse, and it's not hard for a terran to take 1-2 medivacs, load up and fly out at a moments notice then a-move into another base. A full round of warp ins won't stop a single drop. Unless you've got 8 free gateways, and can warp in like 5 adepts and 3 stalkers, and have blink and resonating glaives, they're going to get a lot of damage done. Wait, even with that, they're going to trade cost effectively and kill a ton of stuff just in the time it takes you to warp in, because stim, lol. Meanwhile while trying not to lose your main base to the drop, your army is probably walking in to liberators, tanks, and mines...
But most importantly, don't forget. If people think protoss might be strong, they'll get nerfed immediately. If terran are destroying protoss to the point that even casters are pointing out how insane it is, blizzard is just going to wait and see how the meta plays out...
I would love some help P.D. Oh and I am on 4600~ mmr Diamond toss.
Stats has been using a similar build in IEM geonngy vs Maru on Echo (macro version) and Overgrowth (more agressive version) check this games, both the vods and the replays are available.
Basically Stats version is the same opening than in the vod except he goes for thermal lance and build 3 colossi before swtiching to disruptors. AZfter taking his 4th he also adds 2 stargates for tempests and a dark shrine, but at taht point you can do your own stuff (2nd robo, HT, and so on)
This style is very safe against early/midgame shenanigans (cyclone push, 2bases tanks all-ins, ..)
hope it helps...
I haven't tried it yet but that looks very solid. A few question though. He mentioned going storm+disruptor, how do you even control that? I struggle using hotkeys past `-6, and all of those are filled. Do I put disruptors on the same hotkey as HT, then just tab between them? I see players adding HT/Disruptors to their main army to help keeping everything together, but then how do you also control the Sentries, stalkers, adepts, while having disrutpors and HT it the tab rotation also?
I've also seen a good amount of terran do the whole Nathanius thing and turtle and home and mass up on BC's. I haven't found anything that works against it. I can't beat my way into their base without trading really poorly, but if I sit back the BC's teleport into my base, Cannon down any threat in it's first volley, and then clean up everything else easily.
i'm also tryng that build. Doesn't fix all the issue, and still u need a lot of control, but at least it's something to work on! If I see 1 base play (cyclone or cheesy stuff) i'm still going stargate and double adept, tryng to delay the push and scout better.pvt requires a lot of work nowdays :D
On January 19 2017 05:30 Weltall wrote: i'm also tryng that build. Doesn't fix all the issue, and still u need a lot of control, but at least it's something to work on! If I see 1 base play (cyclone or cheesy stuff) i'm still going stargate and double adept, tryng to delay the push and scout better.pvt requires a lot of work nowdays :D
What hurts the most, I know if we as protoss work hard, and play 10x better than terran to be able to beat them, we'll just be nerfed in response .
Interceptors got nerfed having nearly no examples of even being used in pro play within days of the patch. Zerg get hydra nerf after abusing them to a huge degree. Terran are crushing across the board, and blizz just says they're going to let the meta fix it...
On January 19 2017 05:30 Weltall wrote: i'm also tryng that build. Doesn't fix all the issue, and still u need a lot of control, but at least it's something to work on! If I see 1 base play (cyclone or cheesy stuff) i'm still going stargate and double adept, tryng to delay the push and scout better.pvt requires a lot of work nowdays :D
What hurts the most, I know if we as protoss work hard, and play 10x better than terran to be able to beat them, we'll just be nerfed in response .
Interceptors got nerfed having nearly no examples of even being used in pro play within days of the patch. Zerg get hydra nerf after abusing them to a huge degree. Terran are crushing across the board, and blizz just says they're going to let the meta fix it...
That's a very biased thing to say even pro protosses were saying interceptors should be nerfed.
On January 19 2017 05:30 Weltall wrote: i'm also tryng that build. Doesn't fix all the issue, and still u need a lot of control, but at least it's something to work on! If I see 1 base play (cyclone or cheesy stuff) i'm still going stargate and double adept, tryng to delay the push and scout better.pvt requires a lot of work nowdays :D
You can still go standard and :
a- build a robo with your first 100 gaz and pump imos out, or b- if it's proxy reactor factory, pylon rush your opponent's main
I'm not sure how horrible they are yet but I die a lot to any Zerg 2 bases all-in (mass roach/ravager mainly) and Terran mass Cyclone or 1-1-1. Short rush distance or too wide open natural are my main grief. Meanwhile I have almost 100% winrate in PvP this season...
How on earth do you deal with gas first factory openings (going standard gateway expand)? You do a standard build and suddenly 4 cyclones kill everything. Or you prepare for that and then 2 hellions arrive earlier. Or it's cloaked banshee, or liberators, or a tank 1-1-1. I feel like terran has a million choices to make, none of which you can reliably scout and they all require vastly different responses.
On February 03 2017 01:22 Olli wrote: How on earth do you deal with gas first factory openings (going standard gateway expand)? You do a standard build and suddenly 4 cyclones kill everything. Or you prepare for that and then 2 hellions arrive earlier. Or it's cloaked banshee, or liberators, or a tank 1-1-1. I feel like terran has a million choices to make, none of which you can reliably scout and they all require vastly different responses.
1 or 2 base for the terran? If 2 base, robo-twilight can deal with all that, if it's 1 base you probably need to skip the twilight to get more units out
On February 03 2017 01:22 Olli wrote: How on earth do you deal with gas first factory openings (going standard gateway expand)? You do a standard build and suddenly 4 cyclones kill everything. Or you prepare for that and then 2 hellions arrive earlier. Or it's cloaked banshee, or liberators, or a tank 1-1-1. I feel like terran has a million choices to make, none of which you can reliably scout and they all require vastly different responses.
1 or 2 base for the terran? If 2 base, robo-twilight can deal with all that, if it's 1 base you probably need to skip the twilight to get more units out
That's what I thought. 1-base, though 2 base is an issue as well. It seems to me that it all hinges on pylon positioning, which is a gamble if you don't know what they're doing - and I have no idea how to find out. You can't scout Terran at all.
On February 03 2017 01:22 Olli wrote: How on earth do you deal with gas first factory openings (going standard gateway expand)? You do a standard build and suddenly 4 cyclones kill everything. Or you prepare for that and then 2 hellions arrive earlier. Or it's cloaked banshee, or liberators, or a tank 1-1-1. I feel like terran has a million choices to make, none of which you can reliably scout and they all require vastly different responses.
1 or 2 base for the terran? If 2 base, robo-twilight can deal with all that, if it's 1 base you probably need to skip the twilight to get more units out
That's what I thought. 1-base, though 2 base is an issue as well. It seems to me that it all hinges on pylon positioning, which is a gamble if you don't know what they're doing - and I have no idea how to find out. You can't scout Terran at all.
If you place pylons in the right order it shouldn't be a problem (and that's not specific to PvT anyway).
vs 1 base proxy i don't even make a second nexus, chrono warpgate and get 2 extra gates before robo. vs normal 1 base my 2nd pylon is at the natural for cyclones mostly. By the time theres banshees/libs harassing, you'll have pylons around mineral lines (including the very first one but you probably do that already)
I'd keep the scouting probe on their side of the map to see when they move out and with what kind of army, or if they actually expand. Can also send the adept but in that caseyou need another unit at home to deal with the reaper. You don't want to fully saturate your natural either obviously
On February 02 2017 01:31 youngjiddle wrote: What do you guys think about the new maps? Sometimes I feel like toss does pretty well but other times it feels so awful for toss.
For the most part I don't mind the map pool. Paladino Terminal LE and Bel'Shir Vestige LE are really hard to wall off your natural. Proxima Station LE has some really nasty area's for swarm host harass that have such long corridors to get to it's nearly impossible to do anything about. Cactus and Honorground have really large main bases making it tough to defend against drops. My only complaint with Abyssal Reef is the colors. Sometimes makes it hard to see things with everything being so colorful. Other than that I don't think the maps are too bad. Keep in mind that there are always little issues like this with map pools. Sadly there's really no such thing as a protoss favored map though, loll
On February 03 2017 01:22 Olli wrote: How on earth do you deal with gas first factory openings (going standard gateway expand)? You do a standard build and suddenly 4 cyclones kill everything. Or you prepare for that and then 2 hellions arrive earlier. Or it's cloaked banshee, or liberators, or a tank 1-1-1. I feel like terran has a million choices to make, none of which you can reliably scout and they all require vastly different responses.
1 or 2 base for the terran? If 2 base, robo-twilight can deal with all that, if it's 1 base you probably need to skip the twilight to get more units out
That's what I thought. 1-base, though 2 base is an issue as well. It seems to me that it all hinges on pylon positioning, which is a gamble if you don't know what they're doing - and I have no idea how to find out. You can't scout Terran at all.
Well just make you have the pylon of death around your main mineral line. One pylon at the front in case of cyclones, and then good map awareness to know if something is coming in. You can gather information in many ways also. Your scouting probe can sit out the front of their base to see if anything is coming, you can take the watch tower, your first adept can have a small poke at the front.
Either way the reaction to everything is the same on 1 base is the same.
If you want robo defense, it is 2:50 robo, chrono wg, 2 gates at 3:05 and go from there. If you want to go stargate you can also, but I don't actually know the best way to deal with stuff like that.
If you are worried that they might just be expanding, it doesn't matter either, as you can play 3 gate robo into double forge colo with late blink easily
EPT
.
even pro protosses were saying interceptors should be nerfed.
