EPTOn December 13 2016 00:39 GreenGoblin wrote:
Hi, quick question: Do mines oneshot phoenix?
Hi, quick question: Do mines oneshot phoenix?
Mines do 125 (+35 vs shield), a phoenix has 120hp and 60 shield so it would survive with 20hp.
The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 49
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
Mines do 125 (+35 vs shield), a phoenix has 120hp and 60 shield so it would survive with 20hp. | ||
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Shield
Bulgaria4824 Posts
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
On December 13 2016 07:16 Shield wrote: Is protoss much weaker after latest balance patches? I stopped playing after immortal nerf in summer. I came back 2 days ago to play a few games. its still in an okay spot. There were a few nerfs that did hurt protoss but some of them were reverted. It's not as bad as people tend to exaggerate. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On December 13 2016 00:39 GreenGoblin wrote: Hi, quick question: Do mines oneshot phoenix? Widow mines hit for 160 against targets with shields. Phoenix have 120 health and 60 shields. So a phoenix would survive a direct hit with 20 health left. | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On December 13 2016 07:16 Shield wrote: Is protoss much weaker after latest balance patches? I stopped playing after immortal nerf in summer. I came back 2 days ago to play a few games. IMO after the latest reversion patch, protoss is OK. That hydra range buff was really painful, and the Tempest nerf made them worthless. However both of those were reverted (Tempest range only went back to 10 though). I still feel like protoss is weaker than other races, but being better players and better people balance that out. | ||
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HelpMeGetBetter
United States766 Posts
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On December 19 2016 03:28 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: I'm like at a 20% win rate vs Zerg over 150 games. So what the hell do you do vs zerg? NOTHING WORKS "nothing" It's literally impossible for us to help if we don't know what nothing is. We don't know your level, we don't know what your build is vs zerg, nor what's causing you the most issues. A replay would make things simpler, because telling you what works depends heavily on what level you're playing at. | ||
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SnakeDoctor
Poland121 Posts
Whats the build order I should go? I do standard gate into nexus then robo but is there anything better? Should I go stargate and force him to stay in his base? What would be the followup then? | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On December 24 2016 19:29 SnakeDoctor wrote: How do you stop 1 base 1/1/1? Even if I scout that he's going for it I can't seem to do anything about that; especially if there are so many compositions he can go for: marines cyclones, marines mines liberators, marines tanks banshees ravens or any mix of those. I got 1 or 2 immortals, couple of stalker and handfull of adepts but they get massacred. Whats the build order I should go? I do standard gate into nexus then robo but is there anything better? Should I go stargate and force him to stay in his base? What would be the followup then? Make an observer and send it to his base to see his army comp. Be sure to throw in a Sentry for guardian shield. Be sure to take good engagements, stall as much as possible to keep getting more warp in's. Sac your expansion if you have to, ff your ramp, whatever it takes to delay taking an engagement for as long as possible. The longer it takes, the more units you have to engage against it. I've also been a fan of the stargate opener against terran. Pretty much whatever you build will help a lot, an oracle can scout, harass, and help picking off marines, not to mention stasis trap can help slow the push a lot. Phoenix can fight off medivacs/banshees/ravens/Libs... Or pick up tanks/cyclones, Void Rays wreck medivacs, liberators, cyclones, tanks, and marauders. Whatever is left should be easily cleaned up by adepts/sentries. | ||
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On December 25 2016 01:56 Hyper1 wrote: Make an observer and send it to his base to see his army comp. Be sure to throw in a Sentry for guardian shield. Be sure to take good engagements, stall as much as possible to keep getting more warp in's. Sac your expansion if you have to, ff your ramp, whatever it takes to delay taking an engagement for as long as possible. The longer it takes, the more units you have to engage against it. I've also been a fan of the stargate opener against terran. Pretty much whatever you build will help a lot, an oracle can scout, harass, and help picking off marines, not to mention stasis trap can help slow the push a lot. Phoenix can fight off medivacs/banshees/ravens/Libs... Or pick up tanks/cyclones, Void Rays wreck medivacs, liberators, cyclones, tanks, and marauders. Whatever is left should be easily cleaned up by adepts/sentries. If he meant 1 base 1/1/1 pretty sure making an observer first is a waste as you're gonna see it too late. Against proxy 1/1/1, if you scout after your first gate you should see 2 gases and no factory in his base when you arrive. Definitely don't take your second base, throw down 2 extra gates and chrono warpgate instead. Make 2 stalkers out of your gate, and add a robo as soon as you have 100 gas after the msc, a couple pylons top of your main ramp for overcharges won't hurt. You want stalkers and and immortals, if he still tries to go up that ramp with cyclones, one sentry to force field will shut him down. If he adds tanks and/or liberators you're gonna need a warp prism to give blink to your units. If it's not proxied you're either gonna see it with your probe, or see a full wall. In that case it's not necessarily 1/1/1 but better safe than sorry : do the same as against proxy except after taking your natural. If mines/cloak banshees, chrono an observer but don't make one otherwise, it wastes gas and delays immortals/warp prisms. Like Hyper1 said stargate can be pretty neat as you can just win instantly with an oracle in their mineral line. Problem is if they're ready with a turret at home, you're in a worse position than with robo because cyclones supported by marines can't really be killed with phoenix, oracles or adepts. VRs generally just take too long against one base. | ||
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
just read a lot of people complainig about "carriers", especially in pvz. I used carriers few times in hots and in lotv, really don't understand how autocast and interceptr cost changed things. From what I remember, carriers style were macro heavy with lots of minerals to dump in zealots, so this buff is not so consistent. Zerg can kill carriers with hydra push or simply going corru+viper. This is what i remember and this is why carriers were not so popular. What is changed now? is there a new strong build? can somebody point me there? or just people don't know how to deal with em? | ||
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bulya
Israel386 Posts
On December 28 2016 17:44 Weltall wrote: hi guys, just read a lot of people complainig about "carriers", especially in pvz. I used carriers few times in hots and in lotv, really don't understand how autocast and interceptr cost changed things. From what I remember, carriers style were macro heavy with lots of minerals to dump in zealots, so this buff is not so consistent. Zerg can kill carriers with hydra push or simply going corru+viper. This is what i remember and this is why carriers were not so popular. What is changed now? is there a new strong build? can somebody point me there? or just people don't know how to deal with em? As a zerg I can answer you that. Skytoss was always difficult for me, but earlier hitting early with hydra timings was good enough because dealing with carriers meant dealing with the interceptors and then the protoss had little resources as either the carriers die or the he must make more interceptors, leaving the protoss with little minerals. Going for Ultras later so that a forth cannot be taken (while infestor hydra deal with the interceptors, and bane with whats left on the ground), and its a matter of time before the protoss runs out of minerals as the interceptors were quite costly (a carrier was actually 100 minerals more than its actual cost, as 4 more interceptors must be built, and once the interceptors were gone 200 minerals must have been invested in them per carrier). Corruptor queen was also an option, but it was all about containing the protoss on 3 bases and dealing with the interceptors, which meant the protoss can't reinforce. Now the minerals aren't an issue for a skytoss player, and dealing with interceptors is very unbalanced by means of resources lost. So its very hard to deal with carriers, as if I hit a hydra bane timing the protoss can recover easily, and have the resources for a forth, which changes things a lot. Therefore other counters must be found now, and apart for hitting harder (with spores included) I didn't see a good counter to carriers, yet. | ||
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
This argument could be true if u don't kill the toss, so u trade ur hydras for carriers, and toss ha more mineral than before to make something, but even if u meant this, u traded really well since toss remax time is huge. Also, if you are on hydra, protoss can't build again carriers, since he does not have numbers anymore..he should switch to another tech to beat hydra. I'm not complaining, I would just know the pros of this style to decide if I should train with it or no | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On December 28 2016 23:32 Weltall wrote: I don't understand: once you killed all toss interceptors, u won. no matter if they cost 25 or 5, with ur hydra timing u killed the protoss. This argument could be true if u don't kill the toss, so u trade ur hydras for carriers, and toss ha more mineral than before to make something, but even if u meant this, u traded really well since toss remax time is huge. Also, if you are on hydra, protoss can't build again carriers, since he does not have numbers anymore..he should switch to another tech to beat hydra. I'm not complaining, I would just know the pros of this style to decide if I should train with it or no Yes, you right. In theory. But on practice the situation is common when protoss having a few carriers trades interceptors for few hydras, retreats, add 1-2 more carriers, trade again etc. And it just snowballs. Ofc, if hydra timing hits your 3rd perfectly, zerg wipes all interceptors and detroys the base it could not matter. But i personally got one game on echo, where zerg killed my 3rd with almost no hydra loses. But i managed to save all the carriers, sniped some hydra here and there while he attacked the natural, traded all interceptors like 3 or 4 times and when he actually arrived at my main i managed to gather more carriers and killed his entire army with 0 carrier loss and proceeded to win the game. It looked really dumb. One more thing to add: interceptors building time is really fast. | ||
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
On December 29 2016 14:53 insitelol wrote: Yes, you right. In theory. But on practice the situation is common when protoss having a few carriers trades interceptors for few hydras, retreats, add 1-2 more carriers, trade again etc. And it just snowballs. Ofc, if hydra timing hits your 3rd perfectly, zerg wipes all interceptors and detroys the base it could not matter. But i personally got one game on echo, where zerg killed my 3rd with almost no hydra loses. But i managed to save all the carriers, sniped some hydra here and there while he attacked the natural, traded all interceptors like 3 or 4 times and when he actually arrived at my main i managed to gather more carriers and killed his entire army with 0 carrier loss and proceeded to win the game. It looked really dumb. One more thing to add: interceptors building time is really fast. Thanks, it's more clear now. I have few more question: is there any "standard" opening for carrier style vs zerg? How do u protect third base? carriers+zealots+cannons? Guess charge is really important since zealots will be main minerals dump: when to research it? | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On December 30 2016 02:55 Weltall wrote: Thanks, it's more clear now. I have few more question: is there any "standard" opening for carrier style vs zerg? How do u protect third base? carriers+zealots+cannons? Guess charge is really important since zealots will be main minerals dump: when to research it? I'd say watch games of pro's winning with carriers, but you'll find very few ever build carriers, and when they do, they don't win much. Despite this comment, it's pretty common to get all of your interceptors killed off by hydra's. You'll need carrier/HT/adept/zealot to have a chance to beat then. It can work, but keep in mind that's an expensive T3 army that needs to be build just to be able to deal with a T2 army. Right now, Archon drop harass seems to be the way to go. Try to keep zerg slowed down until you can build an army to stop them. | ||
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MLuneth
Australia557 Posts
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ArtyK
France3144 Posts
On January 02 2017 12:38 MLuneth wrote: How do you guys beat super late skyterran? Like bc/raven/viking with a few tanks to slowly push back cannons? Tempests + revelations, HT and disruptors. Feedbacks and storms destroy their air army, disruptor kill missile-turrets, mines and tanks, tempests force them to take a fight or retreat. I've won like this except with stalker blink instead of tempests because i didn't feel like i could afford a transition, not sure if it's as effective, it requires a lot more micro and moving around, but it worked. I heard carriers are pretty good these days, maybe that's worth trying too | ||
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Hyper1
158 Posts
On January 02 2017 12:38 MLuneth wrote: How do you guys beat super late skyterran? Like bc/raven/viking with a few tanks to slowly push back cannons? At the moment, pretty much nothing works against late game sky terran. BC's effectively have no counter. Tempests are 'suppose' to counter them, but unless you have at least 12 tempest, you'll lose the engagement. At which point they'll just add a raven for point defense drone and your Tempest are worthless. The only way to win is to kill them before they get to BC, or have massively higher army supply and take good engagements. But you don't have mules, so having more supply isn't likely. I've seen even a lot of pro's struggle against this, and not find a solid way to fight it. A lot of terran going this style will turtle to BC, then warp them around to harass your bases with them. As far as carriers against this, BC armor is too high, the high attack rate/low damage of interceptors deals next to no damage to BC's. I know this answer sucks, and I hate it also, but your best option is to kill them before they get to BC. | ||
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Gwavajuice
France1810 Posts
On January 04 2017 02:35 Hyper1 wrote: At the moment, pretty much nothing works against late game sky terran. BC's effectively have no counter. Tempests are 'suppose' to counter them, but unless you have at least 12 tempest, you'll lose the engagement. At which point they'll just add a raven for point defense drone and your Tempest are worthless. The only way to win is to kill them before they get to BC, or have massively higher army supply and take good engagements. But you don't have mules, so having more supply isn't likely. I've seen even a lot of pro's struggle against this, and not find a solid way to fight it. A lot of terran going this style will turtle to BC, then warp them around to harass your bases with them. As far as carriers against this, BC armor is too high, the high attack rate/low damage of interceptors deals next to no damage to BC's. I know this answer sucks, and I hate it also, but your best option is to kill them before they get to BC. Tempest and Carriers are ofc terrible choice vs BC. But the voidray actually works when in huge numbers. It's all about the yamamoto mechanics : in low numbers, BC will manage to yamamoto every voidray with ease. But when its mass voidray vs mass BC, the yamamoto casting time is long enough to allow voidrays to kill the BC. So it's all about the engagement. My personal best is a 17 BC army (with 2 ravens) killed thanks to voidrays. If he has vikings you add archons. So late game plan is : Mass void ray to kill the BC, mix in some archons if needed, and ofc DT/chargelot for harass and kill bases. | ||
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