EPTI have been playing a lot of oracle openings into adept phoenix mid game. I'm not sure when I should be transitioning to colossus. At the moment I just kind of do it as I get the money but just wondering if people have worked out critical timing or period that really you need to swap out of gateway army.
The LotV Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 53
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Dracover
Australia177 Posts
I have been playing a lot of oracle openings into adept phoenix mid game. I'm not sure when I should be transitioning to colossus. At the moment I just kind of do it as I get the money but just wondering if people have worked out critical timing or period that really you need to swap out of gateway army. | ||
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-HuShang-
Canada393 Posts
If you do want to transition though, you should do it after you hold their first push or when you scout their 3rd cc. | ||
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Uncas23
13 Posts
I have a question about mindset. I ask it here because I play protoss but it's a bit general. So far I have been playing with the mindset that Day9 explained this way: "A solid play does not revolve around tricking your opponent." So I use drop play rarely. (only against zerg) And I never do proxy stuff or anything like that. But there are players having one goal: Flying around and attacking only economy. Or just cheesing. And they seem to be more effective. And it's not that I can't deffend these drops. (of course I'm not perfect in it) So should I stick with my current mindset? My idea would be that it's really about tricking my opponent if both of the players can macro on a basic level. I'm currently in gold 2. | ||
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DreamOen
Spain1400 Posts
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iMrising
United States1099 Posts
On February 22 2017 01:46 DreamOen wrote: What is an acceptable way to play vs terran diamond 1, masters 2-3? I am stuck on 30% winrate vs T , 60 vs Z and 70vs P, but I have no idea how to play vs T anymore. can you provide a replay? Your poor pvt record could be due to many things without a replay or questions to ask. | ||
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
On February 22 2017 00:59 Uncas23 wrote: Hi! I have a question about mindset. I ask it here because I play protoss but it's a bit general. So far I have been playing with the mindset that Day9 explained this way: "A solid play does not revolve around tricking your opponent." So I use drop play rarely. (only against zerg) And I never do proxy stuff or anything like that. But there are players having one goal: Flying around and attacking only economy. Or just cheesing. And they seem to be more effective. And it's not that I can't deffend these drops. (of course I'm not perfect in it) So should I stick with my current mindset? My idea would be that it's really about tricking my opponent if both of the players can macro on a basic level. I'm currently in gold 2. Well tricking your opponent doesn't mean that you dropped them.It means that you are out multitasking them. Which is a solid play. You can stick with your current mindset, or not. It doesn't really matter. Macro better and you will improve. Constant probe production, constant unit production, not getting supply blocked, spending all your money, etc etc. | ||
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swissman777
1106 Posts
On February 22 2017 00:59 Uncas23 wrote: Hi! I have a question about mindset. I ask it here because I play protoss but it's a bit general. So far I have been playing with the mindset that Day9 explained this way: "A solid play does not revolve around tricking your opponent." So I use drop play rarely. (only against zerg) And I never do proxy stuff or anything like that. But there are players having one goal: Flying around and attacking only economy. Or just cheesing. And they seem to be more effective. And it's not that I can't deffend these drops. (of course I'm not perfect in it) So should I stick with my current mindset? My idea would be that it's really about tricking my opponent if both of the players can macro on a basic level. I'm currently in gold 2. I have been thinking that a solid play is a play that's viable in any scenario. This also means punishing your opponent when he/she's being too greedy or exploit the fact that he/she's being to passive by being economically focused. In many ways, droping and harass is a solid way to play as you're not putting all of your eggs in one basket like when you're doing an all-in. if a move does damage, it's great but it's not bad either if it doesn't do anything; that's the kind of moves you want to do when you're playing "solid" game, not hoping that your opponent is unprepared for your move bc otherwise you're doomed. | ||
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Uncas23
13 Posts
On February 22 2017 08:45 mGGrinehart wrote: Well tricking your opponent doesn't mean that you dropped them.It means that you are out multitasking them. Which is a solid play. You can stick with your current mindset, or not. It doesn't really matter. Macro better and you will improve. Constant probe production, constant unit production, not getting supply blocked, spending all your money, etc etc. Correct me if I'm wrong but cheesing and droping is easier than deffending, reacting to your opponent. So it's not really outplaying (or out multitasking) your opponent. And my question is not about how to improve. So your tip about macro is not too relevant. On February 22 2017 16:03 swissman777 wrote: I have been thinking that a solid play is a play that's viable in any scenario. This also means punishing your opponent when he/she's being too greedy or exploit the fact that he/she's being to passive by being economically focused. In many ways, droping and harass is a solid way to play as you're not putting all of your eggs in one basket like when you're doing an all-in. if a move does damage, it's great but it's not bad either if it doesn't do anything; that's the kind of moves you want to do when you're playing "solid" game, not hoping that your opponent is unprepared for your move bc otherwise you're doomed. I understand your point about my opponents being too greedy and droping being the way to punish them. But if my opponent is too greedy (spends too much on economy, upgrades) that means my main army should be simply bigger than his. In this logic the most solid play should be just killing him. This is just my newbie logic. | ||
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
Looking at protoss specifically you have to drop against Terran to draw apart their attention.You have the super solid archon drop build that enables you to outplay your opponent and get ahead. I guess I am not really explaining this well  | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
So you mindset should be constant testing all kinds of viable playstyles and abusing them as much as possible. Starting from cannon rushes or w/e. You will test all of them, they will bring you a certain degree of success, but eventually you will come to a conclusion (or may be not) that macro is just better, but that would be your own conclusion, your own experience, and you will have no doubt about whether it's a good or a bad mindset. | ||
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John Bawb
Canada4 Posts
On February 22 2017 00:59 Uncas23 wrote: Hi! I have a question about mindset. I ask it here because I play protoss but it's a bit general. So far I have been playing with the mindset that Day9 explained this way: "A solid play does not revolve around tricking your opponent." So I use drop play rarely. (only against zerg) And I never do proxy stuff or anything like that. But there are players having one goal: Flying around and attacking only economy. Or just cheesing. And they seem to be more effective. And it's not that I can't deffend these drops. (of course I'm not perfect in it) So should I stick with my current mindset? My idea would be that it's really about tricking my opponent if both of the players can macro on a basic level. I'm currently in gold 2. As people stated, I think you misunderstood what Day9 meant. You can get pretty far in the ladder by mastering a certain cheese or rush strategy, but it's about catching your opponent off guard and not really about learning the game as a whole. Worker harass is, in my humble platinum league opinion, one of the most important things to be doing in the game and is part of a solid play - you force your opponent to be on the defensive, which means he can't make a big attack on you, which allows you to expand and have map control. It also gives you a good idea of what and where his army is, making it easier for you to counter it. And it takes multitasking skill to pull efficiently, because even if you make very good drops, if you don't have the macro to get an army behind, when the other player decides to push, it's probably gg. Anyway, Starcraft is a game and you're supposed to have fun with it. If you don't have fun harassing workers, then just play whatever style you like. No one on this forum can force you to use or not to use a strategy. But if you really aim at getting better at the game, I do believe you should practice drops or worker harass of some kind (oracle, phoenixes, DTs, etc...). Good luck have fun! | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
I'm looking for 2 builds: Pvt mass adepts nix from zest/stats Pvz any skytoss build wich not involves heavy nix play in early Thx for help | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On March 08 2017 17:53 Icekin wrote: Hi there I'm looking for 2 builds: Pvt mass adepts nix from zest/stats Pvz any skytoss build wich not involves heavy nix play in early Thx for help As for PvZ, there was a good guide on Trap's 7 adepts pressure into 2xSG. It involves phoenix play, yes, but you can't go around it. I didn't want to play phoenix myself for a very long time but u just have too. No other choice. VR just suck. U can, ofc, rush to carriers skipping everything but that suboptimal cause any kind of agressive push on you third will pretty much kill you. So just go for 6-8 phoenix then carriers. Tbh this build is super fun and improves your multitask and mechanics a lot (adepts pressure then phoenix harrass). Really recommend that. AS for PvT i cant really help cause i play robo tech. | ||
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Weltall
Italy83 Posts
On March 09 2017 03:07 insitelol wrote: As for PvZ, there was a good guide on Trap's 7 adepts pressure into 2xSG. It involves phoenix play, yes, but you can't go around it. I didn't want to play phoenix myself for a very long time but u just have too. No other choice. VR just suck. U can, ofc, rush to carriers skipping everything but that suboptimal cause any kind of agressive push on you third will pretty much kill you. So just go for 6-8 phoenix then carriers. Tbh this build is super fun and improves your multitask and mechanics a lot (adepts pressure then phoenix harrass). Really recommend that. AS for PvT i cant really help cause i play robo tech. I'm tryng something like prism+adept harass while going straight to carriers. I found any direct pressure with adepts pretty worthless, since usually zerg has already roaches for the timing and I usually loose all adepts. With prism i can pressure a bit more and save adepts. Phoenix pretty much the same, as they see oracle they put spores and phoenix do little damage and won't stop and hydra timing. How do u play with nix versus early aggression, like roaches push or hydra timing? | ||
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AusProbe
Australia235 Posts
The only "problem" comes when they are approaching max with hydra(ling bane), but by that time you have transitioned into storm and archon immortal chargelot etc. Also just because there is a spore doesn't mean you don't get damage done with your phoenix. You can always get the drones in the gas geysers, and once you get above 7-8 phoenix you can even ignore one spore. All this being said, you can definitely play PvZ opening SG and going double oracle, but that tends to lead to a ground based army before skytoss. Before the most recent patch if you wanted to rush skytoss, phoenix was the best But who knows what the new patch will bring. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On March 09 2017 04:19 Weltall wrote: I'm tryng something like prism+adept harass while going straight to carriers. I found any direct pressure with adepts pretty worthless, since usually zerg has already roaches for the timing and I usually loose all adepts. With prism i can pressure a bit more and save adepts. Phoenix pretty much the same, as they see oracle they put spores and phoenix do little damage and won't stop and hydra timing. How do u play with nix versus early aggression, like roaches push or hydra timing? Dunno about that. I got the exact opposite experience in those scenarios. I wont argue, with proper micro prism harass can be annoying for zerg, but "frontal" pressure usually hits earlier or(and) involves more adepts. Early roaches mean damage is already done so u just back off and save all your adepts and end up having an economic lead, then 1 (!) defensive VR only strengthens your position. When i see roaches it's almost an instawin for me. Its much worse when zerg has the proper number of hidden banelings killing all the adepts. Thats where problems can start to snowball. Outside of that scenario adepts are always worth the investment. Same goes for phoenix. One spore in the minaral line changes nothing, with proper micro you can always do damage, scout, pick up hydras, queens etc. (im at ~4800 MMR). | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
What gateway units do you use with that bo? I go heavy stalkers and the only real problem i got with that is TANKS. All kind of pushes. Ofc i can go for adepts and shade on them, that works pretty well, but in that case after tank threat is gone and you transition into mid/late game you end up having a 50%/50% stalker/adept colosi based-comp that is plain bad. I just feel you either have a 80% adepts in you mix or they are plain useless and melt like snow. So my question is - anyone having any positive experience defending tank pushes with colosi builds? The only valid strat i found is moving out along with terran and forcing them to siege/unsiege on the map while picking off thier units and kiting, so by the time they arrive at your nat/third you just outnumber them, but the results are so inconsistent... | ||
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vik7
United States227 Posts
On March 09 2017 15:18 insitelol wrote: Btw guys, anyone playing standard colosi build in PvT? What gateway units do you use with that bo? I go heavy stalkers and the only real problem i got with that is TANKS. All kind of pushes. Ofc i can go for adepts and shade on them, that works pretty well, but in that case after tank threat is gone and you transition into mid/late game you end up having a 50%/50% stalker/adept colosi based-comp that is plain bad. I just feel you either have a 80% adepts in you mix or they are plain useless and melt like snow. So my question is - anyone having any positive experience defending tank pushes with colosi builds? The only valid strat i found is moving out along with terran and forcing them to siege/unsiege on the map while picking off thier units and kiting, so by the time they arrive at your nat/third you just outnumber them, but the results are so inconsistent... have you thought about adding some phoenix? they can lift the tanks making your colossus more effective | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On March 09 2017 16:51 vik7 wrote: have you thought about adding some phoenix? they can lift the tanks making your colossus more effective I did, but it involves incorporating SG that i don't really want to do. The thing is i don't know for sure if terran is going tanks or not before i scout techlab on factory. By this time i already have my 1st tech established, so it have to be SG. Meh.. Opening SG into Robo just feel and plays so wrong (may be just for me)... i dunno. The whole purpose of going for colosi is getting them early to be safe vs mass bio. Having 4 phoenix and your 1st colosi half-built when terran is pushing your nat/3rd isn't good. Going for adepts instead just makes more sense. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24239 Posts
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