EPT[G] How to mech in TvP: A youtube series! - Page 3
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
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JCoto
Spain574 Posts
On June 05 2015 19:12 MockHamill wrote: The only thing I do not agree with is going Battlecruicers. Tempest still kill Battlecruicers given equal gas cost and equal supply, especially with air attack upgrades. Even though pdd is nerfed it seems better to invest the gas in Ravens since you get twice as many Ravens for the gas cost and three time as many Ravens for supply. But please hurry up with the other parts of the series since it is hard to evaluate the overall strategy without seeing all the parts. Even if it not mainstream, I think BC's are relatively strong right now in TvP if you are going full mech style and you can take a 4th runnning. The only counter Protoss has right now is HTs, since Voidrays are easily decimated by Yamatos, Vikings and even Seeker missiles, and Tempest nerf is very, very noticeable (damage was cut almost to a half). However I think that the most important aspect to make BC's worth it is keeping the upgrade train going, specially armor upgrades if you scout VoidRays. With 2 upgrades only, Terran Mech can be really devastating vs Protoss if played well. In order to compete, Toss needs their 5 upgrades. | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
http://drop.sc/399937 http://drop.sc/399937 I think you'd enjoy these games  | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
Righto so i've watched the replays and i'll throw some things out there for ya. I generally start my 2 armory's and my 3rd, 4th and 5th factory, around the 10minute mark off a widow mine drop opening. Leaving me with a total of 5facs and double upgrades constantly researching while i've already secured a 3rd. In your video you managed to get some unexpected and significant kills with banshee's despite the fact that he had observer's seeing everywhere they went. Do you think the trade off you got with opening banshees as opposed to mine drops was worth the much later tech and upgrades? Do you think you got further ahead then you would have doing the other form of pressure? Do you think this is consistent enough to open banshee's every game and get the same response? Just remember the mine drop doesn't have to do damage, because as long as i'm building tanks and he's building stalkers to defend i'm pulling ahead. If you think your opening was better then what i do then stick to it, but i think that delay in getting your production up severely hampered your siege tank push in the midgame around 14 minutes or so. The protoss by this point already had storms, immortals and if he macro'd better he'd have the zealot count to deal with it. I think he panicked when he saw your army though and didn't feedback your medivacs or storm your army, instead choosing to morph them into archons and if he did those things he would have demolished what you had. It's possible to play reactor'd marine opening with hellbat banshee but i think the cost of doing that is pretty significant. | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
I definitly agree with your point about the banshee harass being questinoable, i've cut it out and instead opted for a more defensive game opener to power up my 3rd and 4th cc and my extra factories as quick as possible. I also was wondering if youve noticed the same thing too, but i have jsut started to mech and already i easily pull ahead 20-30 supply after my 4th cc starts to kick in, i was wondering if you see the same thing happen as well This one shows different mech unit compositions that I tried before ultimately arriving at a widow mine thor based unit composition, which seems to deal quite well with immortal based play as you'll see in the replay http://drop.sc/399984 this game is vs puck, cringe game how i am up 180 supply vs 110 but respected him too much as a player to try to end the game faster lol http://drop.sc/399985 | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
1. The way you played against a pheonix collossi player was EXACTLY how you want to play. Hellbat thor viking with a turret contain is a chokehold that they cant really get out of, however you did throw the lead and positional advantage that you had by not committing to a 2nd starport and you over extended with your units allowing him to pick off your army and stabalize. So things to improve? Try getting a PF there as well (maru does it, it's insanely good vs ph/collo), 2nd starport, dont over extend 2. A mistake you have in both your replays is your committing too much to a ground based mech army and your missing the one powerful siege tank timing that you have vs a protoss player. Your attack timing is hitting after they've already established a chargelot archon immortal army, which in all honestly is next to impossible to defeat with any ground based mech composition. The widow mine stuff you did with your army was a great way to get the best out of the army that you had, but you where still compositionally behind. That let him clean up your army and counter attack killing your 4th and nearly winning the game The reason i only get 5 factory's despite it being a "mech" strategy is that you have to transition at some point away from siege tanks. For example, with pheonix/collo game, at 17:30 you've only lost 1460 resources vs his 4174 resources. Your in a commanding lead. You have a turret contain a bigger army, map control and your 4th is already mining with 3k 1k in the bank. But by 21minutes you've lost that entire lead because he hits the critical mass of immortals. you lose map control, compositional advantage and he gets even with you on resources lost. Once this compositional pivot is reached you need to transition into BC's, preferably with at least 2/2 upgrades and 3/3 on the way. Once they get more then 4 immortals holding positions and trading effectively are incredibly hard. Now i know BC's sound crazy, but tempests are half as good as they used to be, and you'll render their entire robo army obsolete with a handful of well placed yamoto's. With a 6 or more BC's and good upgrades they're in a terrible spot to try and hold positions on the map. Thats when you can go back into hellbat thor and use yamoto to neutralize the counters they have, namely immortal and collossi. | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
While they may be able to kite away from your army and attack without taking damage it means they cant hold a position on the map. This just lets you run in to attack an expansion and as they micro back you just kill it and walk away. Not to mention the nerf they got vs massive units mean they do so little vs BC's now, they're just terrible. Also feedbacks vs a full energy BC will do 200 damage. BC's have 500 health and a whopping 6armor with 3/3, even being down 200 health (which wont happen) they still have nearly as much health as a colossus. They're still even with storm, feedbacks AND blink stalkers under them, insanely hard to kill. Once you get them you just yamoto down all their immortals and collossi and they cant build the counters then need to deal with your hellbat thor reinforcement | ||
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Elendur
Canada43 Posts
:o) | ||
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PoulsenB
Poland7733 Posts
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Elendur
Canada43 Posts
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
http://drop.sc/400059 not sure what to do vs mass carrier, seems fairly strong and wm and thor splash doesnt do nearly as much as i thought | ||
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PowerOfOne
Peru78 Posts
On June 11 2015 03:58 EJK wrote: hope yall don't mind i keep uploading my mech games, (...) Please do it, EJK! Due to your level of play, your replays are reliable, as well as, the fact that you post your opinion and discuss with Bodzilla. It's nourishing the discussion. Much better to listen to someone who is actually trying it out and is experiencing in flesh the advantages and disadvantages of this style Also, add up the fact that bodzilla is busy and he's not able to post replays as often as he'd like. So, please do keep it up! Thanks to you both, EJK and Bodzilla. Love reading this thread and seeing it evolve day by day. | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
On June 11 2015 03:58 EJK wrote: hope yall don't mind i keep uploading my mech games, this was a cross position game on cactus valley. The protoss went sky protoss but I just starved him out, not sure if I had right unit composition or not though, do i want more bcs, more thor, more wm or what vs his unit comp? http://drop.sc/400059 not sure what to do vs mass carrier, seems fairly strong and wm and thor splash doesnt do nearly as much as i thought Hey buddy watching that replay i saw a few things. The second you know they're committing to air whether it's mass air like this or pheonix collossi you really need to take advantage of your vikings earlier which will allow you to poke and prod more. The 2nd thing is how you take engagements vs carriers. Carriers are a unit you either yamoto down if you can catch them OR you bait into widow mines. To explain it, it's kinda like how use widow mines vs zealots and HT openings. You deploy your mines and then poke backwards and forwards over your mines. What your hoping to achieve is for him to trigger your mines on his interceptors, rather then just trying to kill his carriers directly. Now you have to be careful when you do it because the widow mines will detonate over your army, so it's critical to keep your army spread out and try to bait them into them, rather then try to fight them directly. Try to get about 1 mine per carrier and if you can get a good hit you'll turn them into flying paper weights. You also put your thors quite often into High impact payload where they do a single large shot. This made you miss a few thor shots which could have killed alot more interceptors during your fights. I think the only time you truly wanna use that ability if vs ravens in TvT where they avoid PPD, outside that, missing out on potential splash damage just isn't worth it Now to deal with the carrier "harass" where he moves forward, snipes a base and recalls out you simply have to commit alot to turrets. When a carrier attacks into a turret he will ALWAYS trade inefficient. He'll lose alot more minerals in interceptors then you do in tanks. Now If you get hi-sec auto tracking and building armor earlier as well it'll also go along way to just making his attacks detrimental to him. So just remember to make stupid amounts of turrets, like 10+ and it wont be worth it for him Hope that helps buddy! | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On June 09 2015 17:53 Bodzilla wrote: 2. A mistake you have in both your replays is your committing too much to a ground based mech army and your missing the one powerful siege tank timing that you have vs a protoss player. Your attack timing is hitting after they've already established a chargelot archon immortal army, which in all honestly is next to impossible to defeat with any ground based mech composition. The widow mine stuff you did with your army was a great way to get the best out of the army that you had, but you where still compositionally behind. That let him clean up your army and counter attack killing your 4th and nearly winning the game I'd like to challenge the chargelot archon immortal army composition and say it is beatable with ground mech, with a combination of good unit positioning and a widow mine hellbat siege tank viking based army http://www.sc2share.com/BPB No bc yamotos needed | ||
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Obamarauder
697 Posts
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
On June 12 2015 10:04 EJK wrote: I'd like to challenge the chargelot archon immortal army composition and say it is beatable with ground mech, with a combination of good unit positioning and a widow mine hellbat siege tank viking based army http://www.sc2share.com/BPB No bc yamotos needed it can be done, but it's not ideal in my opinion. Watching that replay i saw alot of mistakes from the protoss on how to engage you. At 16mins when your attacking into his 4th the protoss is too hesitant to attack you. at 16:17 if the protoss turns around and just a moves into your tank he'll slaughter your army and gain map control letting him get the 5th much faster. He also weirdly kept building stalkers through out that game which hurt him pretty severely in engagements. e.g. by 19:30 he's already built an extra 10 stalkers after holding off your attack at the 4th.... even though he's facing a siege tank army. Doesn't make alot of sense and is a waste of 1250 minerals and 500 gas. Then at 21:30 he does the chargelot reload which lets him clean up your army... and then he goes back to making stalkers again. So with your play the biggest thing i'd work on is utilizing your medivacs more. Once you know you're vsing a (primarily) chargelot archon immortal build it means you can hellbat drop his army. This will literally make your hellbats 400% better in engagements in 2 ways. When you drop the hellbats over him they'll get the maximum amount of splash damage they can do vs his clumped up army, rather then getting stuck behind each other where only the front line is firing and their splash is negligible while they buffer for the siege tank army. They act more like baneling mines in this scenario. The 2nd thing is they'll mess up his AI severely. leading them to stutter while in range of your siege tanks letting you get extra hits off. It'll make all the difference in the world for some simple micro management. The final thing i'd say is if you really want to stick with a siege tank army through out the game, why not get ghosts? You already have the barracks, more then enough minerals. a ghost acad is only 50 gas and with each ghost being so effective vs immortals with EMP it seems like your leaving potential on the table. It'll also give you another option for harassment and the ability to split the protoss players attention span more. | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On June 11 2015 21:19 Bodzilla wrote: Hey buddy watching that replay i saw a few things. The second you know they're committing to air whether it's mass air like this or pheonix collossi you really need to take advantage of your vikings earlier which will allow you to poke and prod more. The 2nd thing is how you take engagements vs carriers. Carriers are a unit you either yamoto down if you can catch them OR you bait into widow mines. To explain it, it's kinda like how use widow mines vs zealots and HT openings. You deploy your mines and then poke backwards and forwards over your mines. What your hoping to achieve is for him to trigger your mines on his interceptors, rather then just trying to kill his carriers directly. Now you have to be careful when you do it because the widow mines will detonate over your army, so it's critical to keep your army spread out and try to bait them into them, rather then try to fight them directly. Try to get about 1 mine per carrier and if you can get a good hit you'll turn them into flying paper weights. You also put your thors quite often into High impact payload where they do a single large shot. This made you miss a few thor shots which could have killed alot more interceptors during your fights. I think the only time you truly wanna use that ability if vs ravens in TvT where they avoid PPD, outside that, missing out on potential splash damage just isn't worth it Now to deal with the carrier "harass" where he moves forward, snipes a base and recalls out you simply have to commit alot to turrets. When a carrier attacks into a turret he will ALWAYS trade inefficient. He'll lose alot more minerals in interceptors then you do in tanks. Now If you get hi-sec auto tracking and building armor earlier as well it'll also go along way to just making his attacks detrimental to him. So just remember to make stupid amounts of turrets, like 10+ and it wont be worth it for him Hope that helps buddy! so your telling me high i mpact payload isn't as good as the normal mode? Or should i do half and half for maximum effeciency? I feel like the low attack speeed of the thors means their splash damage doesnt do nearly as much as it should and interceptors fly around so much that they dont stack up either edit: just played this game vs sky transition, mass carriers http://www.sc2share.com/BPC So far from playing, there seems to be two good styles against mech, a heavy immortal ground army or a fast switch into air. You have to ID which style your opponent is doing and the rest of the game is pretty straight forward. In this game, I almost left after i lost a fight lol! that's probably the #1 reason why i lose a game, because I leave the game before I actually lose hahaha It seems the best way to deal with carriers is to deplete their interceptor count instead of actually killing them head on, was a pretty interesting game. For the most part though, I feel I am winning through just general macro, my benchmarks are usually to get a 5th base by the 20 minute mark (that should be standard) and then to trade out armies until my opponent mines out | ||
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Bodzilla
Australia472 Posts
On June 13 2015 02:13 EJK wrote: It seems the best way to deal with carriers is to deplete their interceptor count instead of actually killing them head on, was a pretty interesting game. For the most part though, I feel I am winning through just general macro, my benchmarks are usually to get a 5th base by the 20 minute mark (that should be standard) and then to trade out armies until my opponent mines out Correct! At the start of the game with early engagements you messed up and had your widow mines splash damaged your own vikings but then after that you learned and adapted to do some poking to trigger the interceptors then retreated behind your mines or to your turrets and you just cleaned his interceptors up turning them into paper weights. Carriers cant fight with no interceptors and widow mines are an EXCELLENT way to do it. I'd also be more wary of warp prisms and get some sensor towers up to help in that aspect. I'd also like your upgrades to be faster with hi-sec auto tracking for your missle turrets to really give that boost in defense for when he counter attacks! Now while you are out macroing your opponents in each of your games by how fast you get to 4CC but you have to also remember that the protoss's players money if you watch the replay never gets over a thousand. He spends his minerals REALLY well and most of the time averages about 400 minerals in the bank through the entire course of the game. When your building carriers that cost 400 AND you have 67 probes, that's a VERY good result from him macroing. What your seeing is just how efficient you can be in engagements and trading. Now besides that, theres not really much more help i can give you in this replay because you played it out pretty much perfectly compositionally and positionally. Well done mate! | ||
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