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I did not see this question from Ben answered, and it's something I'd like to know as well, so I'm going to quote him here:
"Having serious issues with zergs making both a spire and a infestation pit at the same time after establishing a third. They make one big round of mutas then go into swarm host/hydra or make swarm host/queen and then switch into mass muta. It feels impossible. I saw it quite a few times on Korea ladder and now I am on NA too. Either you go 2 stargate and have the ability hold the potential mutas and then die to swarm hosts because you won't have colossus in time or you try and defend with one stargate and then usually get rolled by mutas or take enough damage that the swarmhosts work anyway. It feels so frustrating to play against. There is no way to get enough gas to defend outside of taking a super fast (like White-Ra fast. 6:30) third and immediately mining gas. Has anyone got a solid solution to something like this?
I swear I am going to just start doing 2 base all-ins again against Zerg. The matchup isn't even fun to play anymore. Just frustrating. I love the other matchups but if I didn't have to play PvZ I wouldn't. Or I should just go back to playing on KR because the Zergs I played were way more fun and didn't just do stupid mass ling stuff or super greedy early muta builds half the games like so many of my PvZs on NA. I think the thing that is frustrating me the most is that every PvZ I have had the last few days has been different so it has been very hard to practice the matchup properly."
The fact that we have to have 2 stargates to defend mutalisks makes the "fake" spire thing really strong. Theoretically Zerg could also just go spire and infestation pit and then wait to see if you throw up 2 stargates or not. if not mass muta if so mass SH/hydra + corruptor
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In the GSL / WCS KR Ro16, Flying rolled RorO's 2-base double ups into 3-base ultra build that's been very common lately. He did it with a 7-gate +1 weapons all-in, since lings just straight up die to +1 zealots: Even +1/+1 lings fare pretty poorly against a ton of Zealots. Due to the late third base, there's not much economy either.
My question is, could this be done reactively? Like, upon seeing the third go up at that weird, unique timing or seeing 2x Evos on 2 bases, could one immediately throw down a bunch of gates, chrono +1 weapons, and go for this attack? It seems that if the build could still be executed crisply enough as a reactionary move, it could kill the fast ultra player every time.
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Italy12248 Posts
Nop i don't think so, by the time you would know he's going ultra ling (probably from the timing of his third at 7ish) you would already have committed to the 7gate anyway.
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On May 13 2013 12:33 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 10:10 MeLo wrote:
Can anyone help me with Stargate Phoenix openings? Do you guys make nothing but Stalkers and get Blink straight away? And how do you guys deal with mass Void Rays in the late game PvP? In WoL I just vortexed now I'm clueless. I think the best approach is to go twilight style. Chargelot archon push his natural or something. If he builds a wall and plays very defensively, which is very common vs chargelot, don't go all in and suicide your stuff - grab a third yourself instead. Delaying his third is pretty good. Once the void ray count gets really high, you kind of have to get storm to kill void rays. Storm is actually surprisingly effective because even if he tries to split his void rays, the only way he will get a truly safe split vs storm is if he simply splits every single one of them and holds position, waiting for you to attack. But if we assume perfect positioning for him, you are likely to lose.
Yesterday I played someone who countered my mass voidrays really nicely
3 base vs 3 base, he attacks with blink stalker chargelot Archon HT army,
I saw the attack coming (attacked up the ramp leading to the 3rd at zerus prime), tried to spread my voidrays as good as possible - but then he blinked with all stalkers to the right end of my army and sniped the voidrays there, all the vrays on the left were shooting zealots+archons - if I told them to focus on stalkers the storms wouldve been more effective. He did have more army supply at the start anyways but he did also completely destroy my army.
On May 13 2013 15:48 Salivanth wrote:
In the GSL / WCS KR Ro16, Flying rolled RorO's 2-base double ups into 3-base ultra build that's been very common lately. He did it with a 7-gate +1 weapons all-in, since lings just straight up die to +1 zealots: Even +1/+1 lings fare pretty poorly against a ton of Zealots. Due to the late third base, there's not much economy either.
If you wanna see how to crush it with completely standard macro play watch Killer (oh wait his name is swagger now) vs Leenock game 1 whirlwind in Code A.
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I'd be interested in the exact build order too, although really it seems very similar to the soultrain, except you get a robo bay while building your first immortal
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Austria24422 Posts
On May 13 2013 21:57 7mk wrote:
I'd be interested in the exact build order too, although really it seems very similar to the soultrain, except you get a robo bay while building your first immortal
Do you get +1 with the build? Seems like something you could skip in favor of a fast robo bay since you have 2 colossi out vs lings anyway.
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I think you get it after you start the robo bay, with as many units as you have with the push it should be well worth it.
I will check out the shoutcraft group C videos when theyre uploaded, hellokitty did it at least in one of the games. I saw the last series vs suppy he kinda did it but with only 1 immortal, the german commentators said he had done the normal version with 2 in a game before.
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Italy12248 Posts
There's a few GSL vods of it too, but i can't remember exactly which off the top of my head (inb4 dwf jumps in and tells the exact games as usual)
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well like sorrowshine posted theres at least flying roro but I dont have a gsl pass :/
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Northern Ireland27464 Posts
Right I can't play to test this alas 
Anyway, I previously to losing my setup had a habit of utilising my Mothership Core to instant-saturate my third base. Pull probes to it, and recall as soon as the Nexus is done warping. Other than being a neat little trick, I was wondering about the maths of it? Cutting out the travel distance of maynarding etc must yield some economic benefit, but I am curious as to how big that benefit actually is?
Any help appreciated!
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On May 13 2013 21:57 7mk wrote:
I'd be interested in the exact build order too, although really it seems very similar to the soultrain, except you get a robo bay while building your first immortal
From my notebook:
GSTL W8 - YongHwa vs BBoongBBoong on Red City:
9 Pylon (no scout)
17 Nexus
17 Forge
17 Pylon
18 Gate
18 Canon (scout)
20 Gas x2
24 Core
28 Pylon
@100% Core: WG + Stalker
35 Robot
37 Gas x2 at natural (5:50)
Sentry
@100% Robot: Obs + Robot Bay
Immortal
+1 Attack
7:30 Gate x3
@100% Robot Bay: Collossus (CB) x2
Stop probe production at 45
Range as soon as possible
Gate x3 (total = 7)
9:30 Warp Prism, start to move out with 2 collossus, 1 immortal, 5 sentries, 5 zealots
You can also look at:
GSTL W8 - Curious vsSuper on DMZ
For free VOD:
WCS America RO32 - Crank vs Sen Game 2 on Belshire Vestige (Crank lost this one)
Shoutcraft RO32 - HK vs Suppy Game 3 on Belshire Vestige (not the best execution but nice Collossus micro from HK)
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On May 13 2013 14:53 JSK wrote:
I did not see this question from Ben answered, and it's something I'd like to know as well, so I'm going to quote him here:
"Having serious issues with zergs making both a spire and a infestation pit at the same time after establishing a third. They make one big round of mutas then go into swarm host/hydra or make swarm host/queen and then switch into mass muta. It feels impossible. I saw it quite a few times on Korea ladder and now I am on NA too. Either you go 2 stargate and have the ability hold the potential mutas and then die to swarm hosts because you won't have colossus in time or you try and defend with one stargate and then usually get rolled by mutas or take enough damage that the swarmhosts work anyway. It feels so frustrating to play against. There is no way to get enough gas to defend outside of taking a super fast (like White-Ra fast. 6:30) third and immediately mining gas. Has anyone got a solid solution to something like this?
I swear I am going to just start doing 2 base all-ins again against Zerg. The matchup isn't even fun to play anymore. Just frustrating. I love the other matchups but if I didn't have to play PvZ I wouldn't. Or I should just go back to playing on KR because the Zergs I played were way more fun and didn't just do stupid mass ling stuff or super greedy early muta builds half the games like so many of my PvZs on NA. I think the thing that is frustrating me the most is that every PvZ I have had the last few days has been different so it has been very hard to practice the matchup properly."
The fact that we have to have 2 stargates to defend mutalisks makes the "fake" spire thing really strong. Theoretically Zerg could also just go spire and infestation pit and then wait to see if you throw up 2 stargates or not. if not mass muta if so mass SH/hydra + corruptor
Yeah I still haven't figured that out. Luckily it didn't catch on too much and most people are still fixated on that Leenock mass ling upgrade style, going muta/ling, or going roach/hydra so there is much less ambiguity when it comes to scouting.
On May 13 2013 22:00 DarkLordOlli wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 21:57 7mk wrote:
I'd be interested in the exact build order too, although really it seems very similar to the soultrain, except you get a robo bay while building your first immortal Do you get +1 with the build? Seems like something you could skip in favor of a fast robo bay since you have 2 colossi out vs lings anyway. I don't know about the pros but I get +1 attack just so my zealots are more powerful against lings and roaches(since so many zergs go into panic mode and hold down the Z key or the R key), because even though you have colossus for lings, having zealots be better against them seems worth it in the end too. I don't have a real set build order for it as it depends on a few things for how fast I get the composition (if I continue my pressure it is obviously delayed a bit, but usually this is worth it since 4gate pressure is so strong when executed well). I go 1gate expand into 4gate pressure into this composition. I've seen it off forge expand but I don't like that personally because it doesn't allow
This timing is so powerful. So far on EU (I am going for Master on there now that I achieved it on NA) I haven't lost using it. I've only lost to crazy busts so far that hit before I get a lot of units out.
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On May 14 2013 00:53 hipo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2013 21:57 7mk wrote:
I'd be interested in the exact build order too, although really it seems very similar to the soultrain, except you get a robo bay while building your first immortal From my notebook: GSTL W8 - YongHwa vs BBoongBBoong on Red City:9 Pylon (no scout) 17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Pylon 18 Gate 18 Canon (scout) 20 Gas x2 24 Core 28 Pylon @100% Core: WG + Stalker 35 Robot 37 Gas x2 at natural (5:50) Sentry @100% Robot: Obs + Robot Bay Immortal +1 Attack 7:30 Gate x3 @100% Robot Bay: Collossus (CB) x2 Stop probe production at 45 Range as soon as possible Gate x3 (total = 7) 9:30 Warp Prism, start to move out with 2 collossus, 1 immortal, 5 sentries, 5 zealots You can also look at: GSTL W8 - Curious vsSuper on DMZ For free VOD: WCS America RO32 - Crank vs Sen Game 2 on Belshire Vestige (Crank lost this one) Shoutcraft RO32 - HK vs Suppy Game 3 on Belshire Vestige (not the best execution but nice Collossus micro from HK)
Thanks!
So really its all very logical
although I do wonder why some build 2 and some only 1 immortal - I guess those with 2 immortals have to cut the obs
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In PvP, I am doing the 2 gate into 4:30 stargate which has been working like a charm, but im only getting 1 oracle in most situations (excluding vs stargate) then transitioning into robo or twilight. Is this an ok thing to do? I think it works because with dts you only get like 4 max, purely to harass leaving you in a similar place, and with the oracle you harass and have detection, and the tech path is open to use, like twilight is open.
Thanks for any input
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On May 14 2013 07:00 7mk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2013 00:53 hipo wrote:On May 13 2013 21:57 7mk wrote:
I'd be interested in the exact build order too, although really it seems very similar to the soultrain, except you get a robo bay while building your first immortal From my notebook: GSTL W8 - YongHwa vs BBoongBBoong on Red City:9 Pylon (no scout) 17 Nexus 17 Forge 17 Pylon 18 Gate 18 Canon (scout) 20 Gas x2 24 Core 28 Pylon @100% Core: WG + Stalker 35 Robot 37 Gas x2 at natural (5:50) Sentry @100% Robot: Obs + Robot Bay Immortal +1 Attack 7:30 Gate x3 @100% Robot Bay: Collossus (CB) x2 Stop probe production at 45 Range as soon as possible Gate x3 (total = 7) 9:30 Warp Prism, start to move out with 2 collossus, 1 immortal, 5 sentries, 5 zealots You can also look at: GSTL W8 - Curious vsSuper on DMZ For free VOD: WCS America RO32 - Crank vs Sen Game 2 on Belshire Vestige (Crank lost this one) Shoutcraft RO32 - HK vs Suppy Game 3 on Belshire Vestige (not the best execution but nice Collossus micro from HK) Thanks! So really its all very logical although I do wonder why some build 2 and some only 1 immortal - I guess those with 2 immortals have to cut the obs
If I recall correctly its because B4 did not get a roach warren until very late, so Yonghwa probably just pushed out earlier as a response.
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On May 13 2013 14:53 JSK wrote:
I did not see this question from Ben answered, and it's something I'd like to know as well, so I'm going to quote him here:
"Having serious issues with zergs making both a spire and a infestation pit at the same time after establishing a third. They make one big round of mutas then go into swarm host/hydra or make swarm host/queen and then switch into mass muta. It feels impossible. I saw it quite a few times on Korea ladder and now I am on NA too. Either you go 2 stargate and have the ability hold the potential mutas and then die to swarm hosts because you won't have colossus in time or you try and defend with one stargate and then usually get rolled by mutas or take enough damage that the swarmhosts work anyway. It feels so frustrating to play against. There is no way to get enough gas to defend outside of taking a super fast (like White-Ra fast. 6:30) third and immediately mining gas. Has anyone got a solid solution to something like this?
I swear I am going to just start doing 2 base all-ins again against Zerg. The matchup isn't even fun to play anymore. Just frustrating. I love the other matchups but if I didn't have to play PvZ I wouldn't. Or I should just go back to playing on KR because the Zergs I played were way more fun and didn't just do stupid mass ling stuff or super greedy early muta builds half the games like so many of my PvZs on NA. I think the thing that is frustrating me the most is that every PvZ I have had the last few days has been different so it has been very hard to practice the matchup properly."
The fact that we have to have 2 stargates to defend mutalisks makes the "fake" spire thing really strong. Theoretically Zerg could also just go spire and infestation pit and then wait to see if you throw up 2 stargates or not. if not mass muta if so mass SH/hydra + corruptor
Hi JSK,
Yeah a fake spire can be a big problem depending on your build. My best advice to you in dealing with this situation is to open with a phx build and maintain production that allows for a strong phx count. That count could initially be 5, but, blindly climb to as many as 7-10 if you feel there is likely potential for a 'gas heavy' muta play. Also, ensuring you blindly have dbl sg or even triple sg production is actually not a bad thing. Virtually every zerg unit composition can be dealt with by air units; playing that way is ok! If you're concerned about swarmhost builds, remember that you should be also producing colossus with your air builds anyways. If swarmhosts enter the field (and you see them!), you will likely already have 1-2 colossus and can then cut production on voidrays, and add a 2nd robo. This should workout just fine for defending any swarmhost timings.
Ps. Gas wise, you should be able to afford constant production on 3 sg, or 1 colossus + 1-2 vr sg production, Saying you can't afford the gas on 3b, is likely a problem with your build or execution. Maybe try taking a quicker 3rd, and faster gases. Tighten it all up!
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On May 13 2013 13:10 Poo wrote:
- A robo archon ground composition does very well versus this. Well upgraded immortal stalker archon can cope with this army efficiently. Try to attack tanks while they're not in siege mode preferably, otherwise attacks will be much more difficult to win.
- I think this is too vague of a question to answer that well. It's very situation dependent. Zealot drops, Phx harass and oracle are all viable even with static defense in place. Whether or not you can successfully implement these as harassment is going to depend on your own execution & position in the game
Thanks so much for your response.
I've given some thought to the vagueness of my post and tried to come up with some examples. One would be against a terran opponent on two bases. He has blindly gone mineral line turret and turret on edge of base with one bunker. What would be the best way to harass this?
A second question that came to mind while thinking of that one was this: I've noticed that some pros and high level players (desROW, MaximusBlack come to mind) have more warp gates than their number of bases seem able to support, but they do not use every warp cycle. They seem to use warps situationally, ie. when they spot a drop incoming, sending harassing zealots to an unprotected third/fourth. What factors contribute to this decision? Are they scouting and noticing that they can hold any push with the enemy's current comp and just teching while using units where needed?
Thanks again and sorry for the load of questions.
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Hi, aspiring Toss player here with a couple of general questions.
1. What should be my general goals for PvZ. I know that against Zerg, you want to try and prevent him from expanding across the map(drops/DT), so I usually try to apply a bit of pressure while I mass Skytoss(Void Rays/Zealot Support) for the killing blow, which usually works at my level of play. (Mid Plat) Is this an acceptable strategy in higher division games?
2. General goals for PvT? I try and play extremely defensive vs this matchup, but I keep hearing about early MSC/2 Stalker pressure so I've been trying it out lately. It's been working out decently as I usually expand behind the pressure and delay his expand. But even with the advantage, I feel like I lose mid/lategame battles even with superior economy and 200/200. I've tried the main unit compositions recommended for MMM (Zealot/HT/Archon/Colossus) but either lose the battle or go even and lose to his quicker reinforcement times. Does anyone have any general guidelines on what I could do better in this matchup?
Thanks in advance!
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On May 14 2013 17:29 ForwardAir wrote:
Hi, aspiring Toss player here with a couple of general questions.
1. What should be my general goals for PvZ. I know that against Zerg, you want to try and prevent him from expanding across the map(drops/DT), so I usually try to apply a bit of pressure while I mass Skytoss(Void Rays/Zealot Support) for the killing blow, which usually works at my level of play. (Mid Plat) Is this an acceptable strategy in higher division games?
2. General goals for PvT? I try and play extremely defensive vs this matchup, but I keep hearing about early MSC/2 Stalker pressure so I've been trying it out lately. It's been working out decently as I usually expand behind the pressure and delay his expand. But even with the advantage, I feel like I lose mid/lategame battles even with superior economy and 200/200. I've tried the main unit compositions recommended for MMM (Zealot/HT/Archon/Colossus) but either lose the battle or go even and lose to his quicker reinforcement times. Does anyone have any general guidelines on what I could do better in this matchup?
Thanks in advance!
My PvZ is really lackluster, so I can't really comment on the viability at higher levels, but applying gateway pressure while teching up seems solid to me. If it works for you at your level then just keep riding that wave till it stops working, then try analyzing replays to see what needs fixing.
For PvT, if you're losing with superior economy and 200/200, it might be army control and map presence. You need a around 8-10 stalkers in your army to snipe vikings with Blink. If colossi can make it out of the fight with zealots tanking the damage then you should come out ahead. Around ~4 HTs should be enough for a couple of storms and feedback on medivacs. Furthermore, if your economy is superior, go ahead and drop some pylons all over the map. Whenever you're engaging, warp a round of zealots and move them to your opponents 3rd/4th/5th while you're microing your army.
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EPT
