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On May 11 2013 07:21 JayIsImbA wrote:
high diamond toss here, playing masters too. I just flat out die to ling-ultra. Immortals die super fast to the lings, voids cannot kill fast enough. If they add hydra/queen, I don't see any ground. even if you kill the first wave, the ling flood is so mobile, they just flat out kill your bases. I have no idea at this point. and I don't want to go the "kill him before road". thx
How many archons do you have in your composition and how many high templars do you use for storm?
On May 11 2013 07:48 iLevitate wrote:
facing similiar problem here too, with banes in mix.
im mean, ffs is so useless
Same answer to the one above, get more archons and utilize storm.
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seems the only reason to get collosi anymore in pvz is vs hydras and swarm host for me
vs everything else, zealot archon immortal phoenix HT seems to roll almost anything
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Italy12246 Posts
I think having a few colossi around before switching to immortals is also very, very helpful against ultra/ling.
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I am a mid masters protoss and i literally die to ANYTHING from zergs at my level.
If i macro, they get ludicrous amounts of money and just dont die to anything.
If i do an early pressure move, almost no matter how much damage I do I will always die to basically anything.
I literally cannot win a pvz for the life of me
Help meee.
If anyone could advise - good builds/openings (not naniwa build...) and how to deal with the insane amount of economy zerg gets.
Ill see if I can find a replay that doesnt involve me Bming and complaing about how OP zerg is.
Edit: http://drop.sc/333395 <- I admittedly BM a LOT in this game, but after about 15 losses to zerg in a row I am raging a lot
Also to note is my overall winrate vs zerg is 34%
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On May 10 2013 19:14 Tonno90 wrote:
I'm looking for someone who can help me improving against any kind of all in strategies. :D
Im now in Gold league and 90% of the games I'm playing are against all ins and I loose every game.
The Problem is that in the beginning I just cant have a so good map control or vision to exactly know what my opponent is doing. And then in the replay i see that a paylon with a dt shrine was hidden somewhere, or that the terran player had 4 hidden racks just at the beginning.
How do I deal with this kind of stuff ?
Greets
Hi! What's really important right now is learning how to macro and how to respond to what your opponent is doing. Learning what to look for when you're scouting is a big deal. If you're checking your opponents base and you can count a missing pylon, or you don't see any buildings at all, then you know cheese is coming and you can try to prepare with defense at home.
But at first, I would just try to pick out one build order per match up that's safe. And by safe I mean it takes a reasonable expand, offers detection, and the ability to hold off early pressure. For example, if I play Protoss, I'd focus on
PvT 1 gate FE
PvZ FFE
PvP some kind of robo opener
These builds get me an economical position as well as ability to hold off a lot of cheeses.
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On May 10 2013 01:29 LeafBlower wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 22:37 Lega- wrote:I am having a terrible time with PvZ when Z all of a sudden switches to mass ultras. My latest game I had 4-5 immortals, 2 collosus, zealots, archons.. still couldn't kill more than half his ultras. What's the best counter to ultras?  I am low master. My biggest problem when facing ultras was not having good enough upgrades late game. I went into the unit tester map yesterday and made equal value armies of immortals/zealots/archons vs ultras and lings. i was really surprised that when having 2-2 as protoss vs 5-3 ultras, the ultras rolled over my army. however when i was 3-3 the immortal/zealot/archon army won easily with just a moving. Of course as others have said, focus firing with the immortals and spreading them out helps a lot too. The optimal composition late game includes void rays anyways so you should be making those which can kill ultras pretty quick. You just have to have storm as well to kill the hydras/feedback vipers.
Here's a little inside micro secret how Terran pros deal with mass ultra as MMM, medivac pick/drop micro.
Process: Pick up injured target and drop at back, to save the unit from dying by removing it from combat.
Protoss has a unique advantage as immortals with shields take 10 dmg per swing vs. a marauder and speedrism accelerate faster than medivacs.
Something to think about. 
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On May 11 2013 09:06 DanceSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 07:21 JayIsImbA wrote:
high diamond toss here, playing masters too. I just flat out die to ling-ultra. Immortals die super fast to the lings, voids cannot kill fast enough. If they add hydra/queen, I don't see any ground. even if you kill the first wave, the ling flood is so mobile, they just flat out kill your bases. I have no idea at this point. and I don't want to go the "kill him before road". thx How many archons do you have in your composition and how many high templars do you use for storm? Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 07:48 iLevitate wrote:
facing similiar problem here too, with banes in mix.
im mean, ffs is so useless Same answer to the one above, get more archons and utilize storm.
Around 3-4 Archons, not many templas though, because I have colossi..
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 11 2013 18:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2013 01:29 LeafBlower wrote:On May 09 2013 22:37 Lega- wrote:I am having a terrible time with PvZ when Z all of a sudden switches to mass ultras. My latest game I had 4-5 immortals, 2 collosus, zealots, archons.. still couldn't kill more than half his ultras. What's the best counter to ultras? I am low master. My biggest problem when facing ultras was not having good enough upgrades late game. I went into the unit tester map yesterday and made equal value armies of immortals/zealots/archons vs ultras and lings. i was really surprised that when having 2-2 as protoss vs 5-3 ultras, the ultras rolled over my army. however when i was 3-3 the immortal/zealot/archon army won easily with just a moving. Of course as others have said, focus firing with the immortals and spreading them out helps a lot too. The optimal composition late game includes void rays anyways so you should be making those which can kill ultras pretty quick. You just have to have storm as well to kill the hydras/feedback vipers. Here's a little inside micro secret how Terran pros deal with mass ultra as MMM, medivac pick/drop micro. Process: Pick up injured target and drop at back, to save the unit from dying by removing it from combat. Protoss has a unique advantage as immortals with shields take 10 dmg per swing vs. a marauder and speedrism accelerate faster than medivacs. Something to think about.
That is really not a standard thing, or well, a thing period. Terrans deal wih ultras simply by scouting them and having a good unit composition, and so should Protoss; there's plenty of dicussion on this very topic in the previous pages. Not to mention, it's far more important to have the immortals focus firing on the ultras instead of wasting shots on the lings, rather than trying to be fancy with warp prism micro which isn't even necessary.
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immortal archon storm colossus with some stalkers does bad bad bad things to ultra ling. If you scout him going for this early its a pretty easy win. The army is hard to get, agreed, but still,
If you scout high ling count and assume hes going ultra ling, get a quick third and start making colossus out of 1 robo, with the colo your safe to take your third and defend it, a ling only attack wont do anything. Stop at maybe 3 colossus, get archons/storm and immortals now.
I would chrono weapons upgrades nonstop, simply cause i feel safe vs any lingbased build if my attack is 1 upgrade ahead of his def.
Just dont get clouded by vipers, and you will roflstomp ultra ling. Dont even need to focus fire that much, considering lings and banes instadie to storm + colossus anyway.
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On May 11 2013 15:59 shivver wrote:
seems the only reason to get collosi anymore in pvz is vs hydras and swarm host for me
vs everything else, zealot archon immortal phoenix HT seems to roll almost anything
This plus the comment underneath might finally get me to Diamond :D
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On May 11 2013 17:24 Maasked wrote:I am a mid masters protoss and i literally die to ANYTHING from zergs at my level. If i macro, they get ludicrous amounts of money and just dont die to anything. If i do an early pressure move, almost no matter how much damage I do I will always die to basically anything. I literally cannot win a pvz for the life of me Help meee. If anyone could advise - good builds/openings (not naniwa build...) and how to deal with the insane amount of economy zerg gets. Ill see if I can find a replay that doesnt involve me Bming and complaing about how OP zerg is. Edit: http://drop.sc/333395 <- I admittedly BM a LOT in this game, but after about 15 losses to zerg in a row I am raging a lot Also to note is my overall winrate vs zerg is 34%
From a fellow Master Protoss I'd like to give you a few pointers. First off the game you provided is a build order loss. He went Spire (which you didnt scout) and you went Robotics. You kill his third pretty early which is good but from there it went south due to poor decisionmaking and scouting. Utilize your sentries early game. Get hallucinated phoenixes and scout properly. Scout with your MSC too. Your macro is also slipping while and just after you deny his third. You stay far too long on 1/1 upgrades. You have full energy on your Nexi for far too long. You get your third base at a good time, before the zerg has the chance of overwhelming you with units but the defense was poor. The cannons were to anticipate ground units.
Conclusion - scout more actively. This is what caused your loss in this game, and probably the majority of your other games too. Hallucination is such a great and handy tool that you really, really should learn to utilize to the fullest.
Whenever I open gateway expand against Zerg (which I do 9 of 10 times) I follow that up with 2/3 gateways (a lá Naniwa style) together with a Stargate behind. I get a Phoenix or two to scout and then react accordingly. You should continue to be active with your initial few Phoenixes and scout actively. I follow that up with dropping a Robotics (and Bay if I see no Spire) together with double Forge. I try to keep chrono the upgrades. This together with the ability to warp in units almost anywhere is the strength of Protoss.
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Usually I'm pretty strong in PvZ, but this season is just a mess.
1.) What do you even do on Derelict Watcher? In a macro game, I was never able to secure a 4th base and zerg takes the whole map. Pure skytoss? 2 base timings?
2.) How do you observe these nasty instant tech-switches? Last game I played against a zerg and I was pretty sure he will go fast 3-3 Ultras. Then suddenly 30 mutas appear and kill my eco. How the hell should I know?
I hate the new maps so much... It's the worst map pool for seasons.
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On May 11 2013 20:51 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 18:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 10 2013 01:29 LeafBlower wrote:On May 09 2013 22:37 Lega- wrote:I am having a terrible time with PvZ when Z all of a sudden switches to mass ultras. My latest game I had 4-5 immortals, 2 collosus, zealots, archons.. still couldn't kill more than half his ultras. What's the best counter to ultras? I am low master. My biggest problem when facing ultras was not having good enough upgrades late game. I went into the unit tester map yesterday and made equal value armies of immortals/zealots/archons vs ultras and lings. i was really surprised that when having 2-2 as protoss vs 5-3 ultras, the ultras rolled over my army. however when i was 3-3 the immortal/zealot/archon army won easily with just a moving. Of course as others have said, focus firing with the immortals and spreading them out helps a lot too. The optimal composition late game includes void rays anyways so you should be making those which can kill ultras pretty quick. You just have to have storm as well to kill the hydras/feedback vipers. Here's a little inside micro secret how Terran pros deal with mass ultra as MMM, medivac pick/drop micro. Process: Pick up injured target and drop at back, to save the unit from dying by removing it from combat. Protoss has a unique advantage as immortals with shields take 10 dmg per swing vs. a marauder and speedrism accelerate faster than medivacs. Something to think about. That is really not a standard thing, or well, a thing period. Terrans deal wih ultras simply by scouting them and having a good unit composition, and so should Protoss; there's plenty of dicussion on this very topic in the previous pages. Not to mention, it's far more important to have the immortals focus firing on the ultras instead of wasting shots on the lings, rather than trying to be fancy with warp prism micro which isn't even necessary.
I agree, I brought this up because as drop play is becoming increasingly popular, it's becoming more obvious that as the game reaches later stages, the prisms just lay round doing nothing, not even as a mobile pylon.
I brought this up to remind folks that pick-drop micro isn't just for immortal/prism cheese/1base all-in but also has a valid and applicable micro in the battlefield.
Not to be offensive, but Protoss pros as a whole have more room to grow in battle field micro skill/knowledge, unlike Terrans who thanks to banelings, multiprong drops, etc in WoL have a much achieved a much higher skill ceiling in regards to battle field micro.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 11 2013 00:09 fdsdfg wrote:I was Master Zerg in WoL, but now I'm Diamond Protoss. I like the race a lot more, but I'm not as good at detecting what went wrong in a game. This replay is a PvZ. I did forge fast expand, and he went roach/hydra. I did an aggressive blink stalker play to kill his third, and did pretty decent harass to keep ahead economically. However, eventually his tech hit ultralisks, and our armies clashed. Even though they were around the same value when they clashed, I was not prepared for the ultralisks one bit. I guess I should have attacked sooner or switched compositions earlier, but the nature of PvZ confuses me. It feels like Zerg will eventually hit a point where he can spend 2000/2000 on ultralisks or roach/hydra. I need to have completely different army compositions to react to either of these, but I don't have the ability to generate such a composition on the fly. How should I have played this match differently? Thanks http://drop.sc/332994
The biggest thing I've noticed about HotS as opposed to WoL is that you don't need many stalkers in HotS. You should always have a few in your army, but I feel like most of the time, an archon/chargelot/immortal army is going to become your new standard compared to the old colossus/stalker/sentry deathball. The archon/immortal deathball deals with straight-up engagements better and completely obliterates roach/ling, roach/hydra, ultra/ling, and ultra/viper. Generally you'll want to add on 2-3 colossus or storms depending on how much time you have or if he has a lot of corruptors in the mix, etc. You can also add 3-5 sentries freely to FF off after killing ultras or split roach packs, etc. When vipers enter the picture, it's whole other (sad) story though....
So...biggest things: get like 4-5(+) immortals EVERY game, keep a small pack of phoenixes in case of mutas, and remember to start your tempest transition once you see broodlords and you'll be set.
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On May 11 2013 20:51 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 18:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 10 2013 01:29 LeafBlower wrote:On May 09 2013 22:37 Lega- wrote:I am having a terrible time with PvZ when Z all of a sudden switches to mass ultras. My latest game I had 4-5 immortals, 2 collosus, zealots, archons.. still couldn't kill more than half his ultras. What's the best counter to ultras? I am low master. My biggest problem when facing ultras was not having good enough upgrades late game. I went into the unit tester map yesterday and made equal value armies of immortals/zealots/archons vs ultras and lings. i was really surprised that when having 2-2 as protoss vs 5-3 ultras, the ultras rolled over my army. however when i was 3-3 the immortal/zealot/archon army won easily with just a moving. Of course as others have said, focus firing with the immortals and spreading them out helps a lot too. The optimal composition late game includes void rays anyways so you should be making those which can kill ultras pretty quick. You just have to have storm as well to kill the hydras/feedback vipers. Here's a little inside micro secret how Terran pros deal with mass ultra as MMM, medivac pick/drop micro. Process: Pick up injured target and drop at back, to save the unit from dying by removing it from combat. Protoss has a unique advantage as immortals with shields take 10 dmg per swing vs. a marauder and speedrism accelerate faster than medivacs. Something to think about. That is really not a standard thing, or well, a thing period. Terrans deal wih ultras simply by scouting them and having a good unit composition, and so should Protoss; there's plenty of dicussion on this very topic in the previous pages. Not to mention, it's far more important to have the immortals focus firing on the ultras instead of wasting shots on the lings, rather than trying to be fancy with warp prism micro which isn't even necessary.
agreed. I have never seen a T player to do this, although it would work in theroy for P you would such ridicalous apm to pull it off you probably shouldnt try
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On May 11 2013 23:12 freewareplayer wrote:
immortal archon storm colossus with some stalkers does bad bad bad things to ultra ling. If you scout him going for this early its a pretty easy win. The army is hard to get, agreed, but still,
If you scout high ling count and assume hes going ultra ling, get a quick third and start making colossus out of 1 robo, with the colo your safe to take your third and defend it, a ling only attack wont do anything. Stop at maybe 3 colossus, get archons/storm and immortals now.
I would chrono weapons upgrades nonstop, simply cause i feel safe vs any lingbased build if my attack is 1 upgrade ahead of his def.
Just dont get clouded by vipers, and you will roflstomp ultra ling. Dont even need to focus fire that much, considering lings and banes instadie to storm + colossus anyway.
Not just mass ling, but mass upgraded lings. Even then, it can still mean spire, so keep the scouting up with obs/hallucination.
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On May 12 2013 01:03 Bahajinbo wrote:
Usually I'm pretty strong in PvZ, but this season is just a mess.
1.) What do you even do on Derelict Watcher? In a macro game, I was never able to secure a 4th base and zerg takes the whole map. Pure skytoss? 2 base timings?
2.) How do you observe these nasty instant tech-switches? Last game I played against a zerg and I was pretty sure he will go fast 3-3 Ultras. Then suddenly 30 mutas appear and kill my eco. How the hell should I know?
I hate the new maps so much... It's the worst map pool for seasons.
It's hard to pinpoint what's going wrong without replays but on Derelict Watcher you're forced to stay on 3base for quite some time. As long as you take your third early (7-9 minutes) you should be fine. It all comes down to what the Zerg does. If you open gateway expand you can with ease deny the Zergs third. Scout as soon as possible. If you see Spire he'll definately go Mutas because he won't have the economy to go Corruptor/Swarm Host (which I have no idea how to beat yet, mass void rays?). If you don't see a Spire go for the Robo tech - Colossus mainly but keep scouting as the chances are that he'll either go Swarm Hosts or Ling/Ultra. Either way you'll be in a good spot. How you take your 4th on that map is all down to how good you are on sim city and/or which base you want to take. Personally I take the one on the right (if spawned south, left otherwise) base next to my main as I find it easier to defend and wall off.
About the tech switches you need to scout actively. It all comes down to scouting and checking the larva. If he tech switches or not you should be prepared, at least in late game. It doesn't do any harm to be prepared with extra Stargates in case Mutas come, likewise with Robo for Ultra/Hydra etc.
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Zerg is going some sort of comp with broodlords. Let's say swarmhost broodlord with a spattering of roach ling for instance. Maybe 6-12 broodlords upon completion. What is the maximum number of Tempests I should have without making the rest of my army too small?
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On May 12 2013 01:08 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2013 20:51 Teoita wrote:On May 11 2013 18:22 Hattori_Hanzo wrote:On May 10 2013 01:29 LeafBlower wrote:On May 09 2013 22:37 Lega- wrote:I am having a terrible time with PvZ when Z all of a sudden switches to mass ultras. My latest game I had 4-5 immortals, 2 collosus, zealots, archons.. still couldn't kill more than half his ultras. What's the best counter to ultras? I am low master. My biggest problem when facing ultras was not having good enough upgrades late game. I went into the unit tester map yesterday and made equal value armies of immortals/zealots/archons vs ultras and lings. i was really surprised that when having 2-2 as protoss vs 5-3 ultras, the ultras rolled over my army. however when i was 3-3 the immortal/zealot/archon army won easily with just a moving. Of course as others have said, focus firing with the immortals and spreading them out helps a lot too. The optimal composition late game includes void rays anyways so you should be making those which can kill ultras pretty quick. You just have to have storm as well to kill the hydras/feedback vipers. Here's a little inside micro secret how Terran pros deal with mass ultra as MMM, medivac pick/drop micro. Process: Pick up injured target and drop at back, to save the unit from dying by removing it from combat. Protoss has a unique advantage as immortals with shields take 10 dmg per swing vs. a marauder and speedrism accelerate faster than medivacs. Something to think about. That is really not a standard thing, or well, a thing period. Terrans deal wih ultras simply by scouting them and having a good unit composition, and so should Protoss; there's plenty of dicussion on this very topic in the previous pages. Not to mention, it's far more important to have the immortals focus firing on the ultras instead of wasting shots on the lings, rather than trying to be fancy with warp prism micro which isn't even necessary. I agree, I brought this up because as drop play is becoming increasingly popular, it's becoming more obvious that as the game reaches later stages, the prisms just lay round doing nothing, not even as a mobile pylon. I brought this up to remind folks that pick-drop micro isn't just for immortal/prism cheese/1base all-in but also has a valid and applicable micro in the battlefield. Not to be offensive, but Protoss pros as a whole have more room to grow in battle field micro skill/knowledge, unlike Terrans who thanks to banelings, multiprong drops, etc in WoL have a much achieved a much higher skill ceiling in regards to battle field micro.
There's a difference between having 2-10 medivacs which you need anyways to heal your units and having a warp prism which mainly should be used for warping in units, that could only carry a maximum of two immortals.
If I dont feel like I need a warp prism for harass / mobile pylon, then I wont build it and not waste the 2 supply. Better to invest 1 more supply into an additional immortal.
If I happen to have a warp prism that is absolutely doing nothing else, then sure, sometimes it makes sense to do some lift micro if I have the apm for it. But against Ultras kiting and focus firing is way more important as Teoita pointed out.
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Italy12246 Posts
Also even terrans don't do it because it's a waste of time and requires waaaay too much apm, and since advice in general in this forum should be about pro game references: i dare you to find a single vod in which the terran beats an ultralisk army through dropship micro.
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