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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On May 10 2013 17:51 Teoita wrote: Honestly after i 4gate i just soultrain their ass. Works like a charm for me, especially if they lose their third. That seems like a pretty good idea. Will try that, thanks! | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On May 10 2013 16:20 Apoptotic wrote: If you snipe the third, killed drones, and recalled out, you should be pretty ahead. When I pressure with 4gates I like to drop my tech right as I push out, typically stargate. From there I pump out a couple of voids/phoenixes depending and then my robo. If you can hold your third from there you should be in an incredibly good spot, but it's hard to say without at least one replay. Are you talking about off a gateway expand or FFE? If FFE you can have a tech building along with your +1 4 gate, and then when you push out you can get your 2nd tech building... (i.e. stargate + 4 gate -> robo) | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On May 10 2013 18:11 rsvp wrote: Are you talking about off a gateway expand or FFE? If FFE you can have a tech building along with your +1 4 gate, and then when you push out you can get your 2nd tech building... (i.e. stargate + 4 gate -> robo) I always do it off an FFE. Will try to adjust the timings of it then. I've seen the +1 4gate with void ray + phoenixes but didn't know it got a robo that fast. | ||
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Apoptotic
United States137 Posts
On May 10 2013 18:11 rsvp wrote: Are you talking about off a gateway expand or FFE? If FFE you can have a tech building along with your +1 4 gate, and then when you push out you can get your 2nd tech building... (i.e. stargate + 4 gate -> robo) I tend to 1gate FE in PvZ, so I guess that's an important distinction to make between my play and DarkLord's. That's interesting though, you would think that off of a 1gate fe your tech would be faster than tech off of a FFE, but I guess the economic advantage of an FFE makes teching faster in the long run? I would think that 1gate fe -> tech -> 4 gates -> tech as you push out is still a viable way to go about teching. Is this not safe without the forge? | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On May 10 2013 18:23 Apoptotic wrote: I tend to 1gate FE in PvZ, so I guess that's an important distinction to make between my play and DarkLord's. That's interesting though, you would think that off of a 1gate fe your tech would be faster than tech off of a FFE, but I guess the economic advantage of an FFE makes teching faster in the long run? I would think that 1gate fe -> tech -> 4 gates -> tech as you push out is still a viable way to go about teching. Is this not safe without the forge? With a FFE you can time a void ray and +1 4 gate to hit at the same time at ~8:00, such that the +1 4 gate doesn't delay the void ray and vice versa (i.e. if you were to do only a +1 4 gate without the stargate, it would still hit at ~8:00). If you gate expand you can get either the +1 4 gate or void ray to hit much earlier than ~8:00, but not both. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Tonno90
Germany1 Post
Im now in Gold league and 90% of the games I'm playing are against all ins and I loose every game. The Problem is that in the beginning I just cant have a so good map control or vision to exactly know what my opponent is doing. And then in the replay i see that a paylon with a dt shrine was hidden somewhere, or that the terran player had 4 hidden racks just at the beginning. How do I deal with this kind of stuff ? Greets | ||
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partydude89
1850 Posts
On May 09 2013 13:51 partydude89 wrote: Hi. platinum Protoss player here. i am having 2 troubles when facing zerg. 1)They go for a 6 pool or 10 pool, so i, having a forge on the low ground, place a pylon and then a cannon in my main. then they send a drone and build a hatch in my main base. i can't move out of my mineral line because thats where my cannon is, and it seems like teching to stargate takes too long. and 2) they show a bigish group of lings at like the 7 minute mark, so im scared to move out or pressure because they might be all-in. and then they play super greedy behind it, and then swarm me with ultra ling infestor. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On May 10 2013 19:20 partydude89 wrote: hey, i don't want to sound like a stuck up brat, but i posted in this thread earlier, and it seems like my question may be been missed. Showing a big group of lings that early just to mindgame you is weird. I'm assuming you've scouted a gasless third? In that case there's really not much zerg can do to be aggressive and your opponent just put himself far behind by making those lings. Just play on like you normally would and you should be ahead. If you haven't seen a third and you're expecting a 2 base build or all in, you should be defensive anyway. Just don't overdo it and keep up your scouting and teching. If he does get greedy you can instantly switch to being aggressive to keep him honest or straight up kill him. If they throw down a hatch in your base it doesn't help their economy. Which means they're still very much so all in, even more now. Just proceed to play it out like a 3gate expand. That should give you enough units to be safe and kill the hatch which should end the game in your favor. You just have to accept the fact that if you go pylon on the low ground vs an early pool, you're going to lose your natural. Just abandon the idea of FFE, make the pylon + cannon to be safe and immediately switch to a 1 base opener. | ||
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partydude89
1850 Posts
On May 10 2013 19:25 DarkLordOlli wrote: Showing a big group of lings that early just to mindgame you is weird. I'm assuming you've scouted a gasless third? In that case there's really not much zerg can do to be aggressive and your opponent just put himself far behind by making those lings. Just play on like you would and you should be ahead. If they throw down a hatch in your base it doesn't help their economy. Which means they're still very much so all in, even more now. Just proceed to play it out like a 3gate expand. That should give you enough units to be safe and kill the hatch which should end the game in your favor. Ok about the big group of lings, but with the 6 pool into hatch in base, he just keeps making lings, and with the hatch in my base, he then makes a queen, creep in my base, and a closer rally for lings. i may be wrong, but it feels like if i go a 3 base expand, by the time i have the units out, he already has my entire base filled with creep and a horde of lings to meet my units. | ||
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On May 10 2013 19:28 partydude89 wrote: Ok about the big group of lings, but with the 6 pool into hatch in base, he just keeps making lings, and with the hatch in my base, he then makes a queen, creep in my base, and a closer rally for lings. i may be wrong, but it feels like if i go a 3 base expand, by the time i have the units out, he already has my entire base filled with creep and a horde of lings to meet my units. Well at some point he's gonna have to cut lings to get the 300 minerals for a hatch. That's actually quite some time he's not producing units since he's only on his initial drones (or more but then he'd have to skip even more lings in favor of drones). If you chrono your initial zealot and make a second one (chrono that too), zerg will have to a) produce more lings at home thus delaying the hatch in your base or it will delay drones or, which I'm assuming will actually happen, you will kill the lings he made initially and then force a cancel on the hatch. What's really important is your initial scouting probe. Zerg won't stop to try and hunt it down with his initial zerglings. That means your probe will remain on the map. Use it to scout what zerg is doing as a followup to the 6 pool, whether he's expanding, making more lings, if there's gas, etc. | ||
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partydude89
1850 Posts
On May 10 2013 19:35 DarkLordOlli wrote: Well at some point he's gonna have to cut lings to get the 300 minerals for a hatch. That's actually quite some time he's not producing units since he's only on his initial drones (or more but then he'd have to skip even more lings in favor of drones). If you chrono your initial zealot and make a second one (chrono that too), zerg will have to a) produce more lings at home thus delaying the hatch in your base or it will delay drones or, which I'm assuming will actually happen, you will kill the lings he made initially and then force a cancel on the hatch. ok thanks | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
This replay is a PvZ. I did forge fast expand, and he went roach/hydra. I did an aggressive blink stalker play to kill his third, and did pretty decent harass to keep ahead economically. However, eventually his tech hit ultralisks, and our armies clashed. Even though they were around the same value when they clashed, I was not prepared for the ultralisks one bit. I guess I should have attacked sooner or switched compositions earlier, but the nature of PvZ confuses me. It feels like Zerg will eventually hit a point where he can spend 2000/2000 on ultralisks or roach/hydra. I need to have completely different army compositions to react to either of these, but I don't have the ability to generate such a composition on the fly. How should I have played this match differently? Thanks http://drop.sc/332994 | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
I also wonder if getting an oracle first is better than opening with phoenix. It seems more of a gamble to me than anything, unless you know you are being contained. If you are a stargate opening, going oracle first puts you behind in phoenix count, which is actually pretty bad. If you're facing dts, I guess you can still buy time to get a chrono boosted oracle out if you preemptively block your ramp with units. By the way, I've noticed in some proleague matches that if I go sentry first, I have enough energy to scout with hallucination at 5:45. But even though I will have photon overcharge at this point, isn't it risky to spend sentry energy so early? Should I get a second sentry if I want to do this? Last, but not least, can I reactively punish a 1 gate fe after scouting with hallucination? Or is a 2 sentry opening too defensive for that? I mean, I've seen quite a few people talk about how a 1 gate fe is pretty much a build order loss against a stargate/gateway push, so I wanted to know more about that too. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On May 11 2013 01:57 vhapter wrote: Last, but not least, can I reactively punish a 1 gate fe after scouting with hallucination? Or is a 2 sentry opening too defensive for that? I mean, I've seen quite a few people talk about how a 1 gate fe is pretty much a build order loss against a stargate/gateway push, so I wanted to know more about that too. Why would you need a hallucination to scout a 1gate FE? Shouldn't you be able to easily just check to see if he expanded? | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
What I think might be the safest route is to sacrifice a probe at 5:20-5:30 like desrow suggests in his PvP stargate tutorial. If my opponent is aggressive, I can scout everything with my probe and save sentry energy for defense. If my opponent is defensive, I can use a hallucination to scout him. I'll have ample time to see if it's DTs and get an oracle while I block my ramp with units and force field it to buy time. I guess I can open with phoenixes if I need to scout with a hallucination, and if I get in with my probe I can go oracle as long as I see no stargate. It's probably trickier to deal with stalker pressure into DTs, but I guess if my probe gets in, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. As long as I see the dark shrine early, I won't need to force field my ramp. A proxy dark shrine can be a pain if I don't scout it properly though. What I'm not sure is whether I can follow up with an all in if I get 2 sentries and scout with a hallucination. I should take a look at the replays I have here to see if I can find stargate vs 1 gate FE replays. | ||
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ant885
United States52 Posts
I used to open like tails, 1gate double gas msc expand, with 3 blind stalkers and scouting with just the obs. But I feel this is kinda unnecessary vs gasless expand or reaper into 3 racks. So I've been trying sage's style (or what I saw on his stream, maybe not "his" style) - 1 gas msc expand, scout with the MSC. My problem is I can usually only poke for a couple seconds with the MSC before marines force me out, and I can't really tell whether they expanded or not based on their tech timings. I was wondering if you guys had timings of a factory/starport off an expand(a gas expand) and just a 1/1/1 opening without the expand (or if you have a completely different approach to scouting you think is better) Many thanks | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On May 11 2013 06:06 ant885 wrote: Hello, High masters toss here and have some scouting concerns PvT, curious how some of you guys are going about it. I used to open like tails, 1gate double gas msc expand, with 3 blind stalkers and scouting with just the obs. But I feel this is kinda unnecessary vs gasless expand or reaper into 3 racks. So I've been trying sage's style (or what I saw on his stream, maybe not "his" style) - 1 gas msc expand, scout with the MSC. My problem is I can usually only poke for a couple seconds with the MSC before marines force me out, and I can't really tell whether they expanded or not based on their tech timings. I was wondering if you guys had timings of a factory/starport off an expand(a gas expand) and just a 1/1/1 opening without the expand (or if you have a completely different approach to scouting you think is better) Many thanks You don't need double gas before expanding if you don't get an early sentry (which can be a defensive unit as well as a scouting tool). I think poking with the msc is pretty risky though, and a reaper completely denies this unless you also get a stalker. The idea behind what Tails does is that he doesn't have to scout super early because he gets just enough to hold off early aggression. Msc scouting means you are weaker against early aggression because there is a chance the msc won't be back in time for a defensive photon overcharge. I'm afraid there is no build that will allow you to cut as many corners as you want, provide you with as much scouting information as you want, and still be safe. If I recall correctly, a factory can be started at 3:30 without an early cc. If they go reaper reactor, in most replays I noticed the factory starts at about 4:20 with a CC at 3:30-3:40, but if they cut corners and optimize their build really well, it could start perhaps as early as 4:00. One of the big issues that I see here is that, while a regular reaper reactor expand build into widow mine drop shouldn't hit you before 7 minutes, a gas first into hellion drop may hit as early as 6:10 without proxies, so sometimes you are just going to die if you cut too many corners (that includes msc scouting without any defense at home). | ||
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JayIsImbA
Germany54 Posts
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iLevitate
United States225 Posts
im mean, ffs is so useless | ||
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