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On May 08 2013 02:39 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 02:24 Teoita wrote:
@Ben: dunno too early to tell. It does look incredibly strong though; maybe faster tempests? Yeah it appears to be insanely powerful, on Daybreak it was downright broken because the locusts could stop Protoss from taking two different bases and could attack their middle base all from the middle base, and because of the watch tower you could see any attack coming so the defence portion of it was unbreakable. The only things I can think of are killing it before it can happen (we don't want that to happen again. We don't want a repeat of WoL) or maybe (big maybe) mass upgraded tempest/HT/colossus/archon/mothership. Mothership to cloak everything so the locusts need overseers to do their damage, maybe like 6-8 colossus so you could handle the locusts without taking damage (the usual rule of 4 doesn't appear to work as can be seen from the Flying vs. Roro game. Once there are enough swarm hosts, 4 doesn't cut it.), the tempest to slowly chip away at the static defence, the templar to scare away vipers and infestors along with handling corruptors, and the archons also for corruptors. However, I don't even know if that can work.
Why not just skip the colossus and get mothership/tempest/templar voidray? Maybe 6-8 tempests. I think they ahve to be in different control groups to avoid wasting dps. blasphemy, i know, but the game is young and everybody is so certain that colossus is correct...im just not so sure when it gets fucked by spores, vipers, AND corruptors. (and makes you go robo which I hate)
problem with tempest vs swarmhost is that locusts will out dps us even if we're getting free pot shots off on his army. so mothership is needed to cloak a base.
I have had success at going 2 stargate phoenix into tempest with air attack upgrades. he can't attack as fast with hydra swarm host because i have as many phoenix as he has hydras. i preemptively add void rays for when he goes corruptors and of course tempests.
I'm finding more and more that pure skytoss pvz (into HT) is viable. swarm host hydra corruptor viper doesnt do so well against cloaked cannon field/tempest/vr/HT/ 20-30 phoenix.
i never actually engage his composition, i just use revelation and shoot at him with around 8 tempests. if he moves to another base, so do I. during this i warp prism harass with a few gates.
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On May 08 2013 10:46 rsvp wrote:RE: SH/viper + some mix of hydra/queen/infestor/ultra/spine/spore/corruptor Gateway units are really bad late game PvZ especially against swarm hosts. The ultimate P army comp is colossus + void/carrier + HT + immortal. 6-10 colossus to deal with locusts and other ground units, 10+ HT for storm and feedback, a few immortals if the zerg has ultras or static defense, the rest void/carrier (void against corruptor, carrier against hydra/queen). Archons are useless, tempests are bad because they have no DPS, and gateway units are definitely worthless. It takes awhile to build up that army, so my favorite tactic is to just mass zealot warp-in everywhere to buy time to make that army. http://drop.sc/331616http://drop.sc/331619
That's what Day9 said in his daily, attack where the Z is not.
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Austria24422 Posts
We're going back to the exact same problem we had in WoL though. You once again can't fight the army. What happens then is figured out - good zergs will throw up mass spines at their bases, you won't get to your ideal army -> you lose.
I really believe this one has to be solved by blizzard.
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 08 2013 10:46 rsvp wrote:
RE: SH/viper + some mix of hydra/queen/infestor/ultra/spine/spore/corruptor
Gateway units are really bad late game PvZ especially against swarm hosts. The ultimate P army comp is colossus + void/carrier + HT + immortal. 6-10 colossus to deal with locusts and other ground units, 10+ HT for storm and feedback, a few immortals if the zerg has ultras or static defense, the rest void/carrier (void against corruptor, carrier against hydra/queen). Archons are useless, tempests are bad because they have no DPS, and gateway units are definitely worthless. It takes awhile to build up that army, so my favorite tactic is to just mass zealot warp-in everywhere to buy time to make that army.
So basically flying's mistake was not enough colossus and templar in that game? Afaik he never went above 4 in lategame and focused on void rays instead.
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About the 2 base double upgrade lings -> ultras
MVPSwagger aka Killer aka Sangho just completely destroyed it (on whirlwind) against Leenock in Code A by playing very standard, phoenix opening, colossus, took 3rd base relatively fast, had double robo production, ~4 colossi, pumping immortals teching to archons and took a 4th when the ultras were about to hit
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Just started HOTS, and having big trouble with these super fast medivacs.... How do you deal with them?
User was warned for this post
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On May 09 2013 02:07 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
Just started HOTS, and having big trouble with these super fast medivacs.... How do you deal with them?
Good observer spread and stalker spread. HT's and cannons or dts and zealots as the game progresses. Idle gates, too are very helpful.
You need to keep a larger amount of stalkers and a few zealots split off in your main prior to getting ht's and your third.
Often players are going for later thirds, emphasizing early and fast double ups and going often for blink before charge to deny any sort of drop play and aid in mobility.
Once you get your third, adding a cannon or 2 and a ht per vulnerable base helps and the MSC is useful throughout the game. DTs and a zealot or two also can be used to slow down doom drops, but again doom drops are a vision problem the majority of the time.
Watching pro PvTs and see how players are deflecting drops.
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On May 08 2013 10:46 rsvp wrote:RE: SH/viper + some mix of hydra/queen/infestor/ultra/spine/spore/corruptor Gateway units are really bad late game PvZ especially against swarm hosts. The ultimate P army comp is colossus + void/carrier + HT + immortal. 6-10 colossus to deal with locusts and other ground units, 10+ HT for storm and feedback, a few immortals if the zerg has ultras or static defense, the rest void/carrier (void against corruptor, carrier against hydra/queen). Archons are useless, tempests are bad because they have no DPS, and gateway units are definitely worthless. It takes awhile to build up that army, so my favorite tactic is to just mass zealot warp-in everywhere to buy time to make that army. http://drop.sc/331616http://drop.sc/331619
Ah cool, cool.
Right after you said that, BabyKnight does exactly this in a long split map game vs Stephano lol I notice he does keep stalkers and Archons to take on mass corrupter that float over your army with each locust swarm. Possibly a bad call by Stephano.
Good stuff!
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Guys..
I really need your help again. I am middl/high Master Protoss. I am only facing Zerg atm. on ladder and getting always crushed by them either by muta play or swarmhost timings.
While Protoss and Terran are no problem to beat, I have really problems to deal with good zerg.
I just played this game (replay):
http://drop.sc/332294
I opened up Naniwa 4 gate pressure but sadly the zerg blindly countered it. I dont know what I should have done diffrent, killed a couple queens and lings and so on, it was horrible thought.
next he went swarmhost / queen / static defence.
I really have no idea how I could have done it better in this game.
pleas analyse it and give me some hints with the time in the replay.
thanks
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In HotS, is it still impossible to transition out of Phoenixes in Phoenix vs. Phoenix play?
If so, why? If I scout my opponent not producing Phoenixes any more, what do I do?
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I'm having a bit of trouble against a certain timing Terrans have been doing now where they attack when they have +2/+1 MMM with 10 vikings and some additional hellbats. I typically go for the double forge colossus style and this attack hits right around when +3/+3 is 50% done and charge is about 50% done as well. I do have my templar archives down but I don't research storm as I'm aiming for a 3-3 timing with chargelot/archon/blink stalker/colossus. I constantly make colossus out of my robotics as well. I usually have 3-4 colossus, 12 blink stalkers, 3 sentries, 2 archons, rest zealots.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 09 2013 11:52 .kv wrote:
I'm having a bit of trouble against a certain timing Terrans have been doing now where they attack when they have +2/+1 MMM with 10 vikings and some additional hellbats. I typically go for the double forge colossus style and this attack hits right around when +3/+3 is 50% done and charge is about 50% done as well. I do have my templar archives down but I don't research storm as I'm aiming for a 3-3 timing with chargelot/archon/blink stalker/colossus. I constantly make colossus out of my robotics as well. I usually have 3-4 colossus, 12 blink stalkers, 3 sentries, 2 archons, rest zealots.
I can't vouch exactly what to do, but I can give a few suggestions based on my own play. I've played against these sorts of attack timings that are REALLY strong, but I think the best thing to do is stay ahead of the curve in tech. Unless you're getting pounded into the ground with medivac drops and you can't spare it, I would probably cut colossus after 2-3 and immediately start on storm. This prevents terran from hitting a timing where they can mop up your colossus and walk in for the free win; adding hellbats in is an added bonus for terran, but it doesn't really change the fact much that they've stabilized on tech and have an advantage.
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On May 09 2013 12:10 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 11:52 .kv wrote:
I'm having a bit of trouble against a certain timing Terrans have been doing now where they attack when they have +2/+1 MMM with 10 vikings and some additional hellbats. I typically go for the double forge colossus style and this attack hits right around when +3/+3 is 50% done and charge is about 50% done as well. I do have my templar archives down but I don't research storm as I'm aiming for a 3-3 timing with chargelot/archon/blink stalker/colossus. I constantly make colossus out of my robotics as well. I usually have 3-4 colossus, 12 blink stalkers, 3 sentries, 2 archons, rest zealots. I can't vouch exactly what to do, but I can give a few suggestions based on my own play. I've played against these sorts of attack timings that are REALLY strong, but I think the best thing to do is stay ahead of the curve in tech. Unless you're getting pounded into the ground with medivac drops and you can't spare it, I would probably cut colossus after 2-3 and immediately start on storm. This prevents terran from hitting a timing where they can mop up your colossus and walk in for the free win; adding hellbats in is an added bonus for terran, but it doesn't really change the fact much that they've stabilized on tech and have an advantage.
yeah I was hoping I didn't have to rely on that so my 3-3 timing would be stronger but yeah it seems I have to get storm for this
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On May 09 2013 12:14 .kv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 12:10 SC2John wrote:On May 09 2013 11:52 .kv wrote:
I'm having a bit of trouble against a certain timing Terrans have been doing now where they attack when they have +2/+1 MMM with 10 vikings and some additional hellbats. I typically go for the double forge colossus style and this attack hits right around when +3/+3 is 50% done and charge is about 50% done as well. I do have my templar archives down but I don't research storm as I'm aiming for a 3-3 timing with chargelot/archon/blink stalker/colossus. I constantly make colossus out of my robotics as well. I usually have 3-4 colossus, 12 blink stalkers, 3 sentries, 2 archons, rest zealots. I can't vouch exactly what to do, but I can give a few suggestions based on my own play. I've played against these sorts of attack timings that are REALLY strong, but I think the best thing to do is stay ahead of the curve in tech. Unless you're getting pounded into the ground with medivac drops and you can't spare it, I would probably cut colossus after 2-3 and immediately start on storm. This prevents terran from hitting a timing where they can mop up your colossus and walk in for the free win; adding hellbats in is an added bonus for terran, but it doesn't really change the fact much that they've stabilized on tech and have an advantage. yeah I was hoping I didn't have to rely on that so my 3-3 timing would be stronger but yeah it seems I have to get storm for this
actually I believe Teoita suggests not getting storm as Terran 3 base timing with the composition OP is mentioning (+ scv pull) will kill you.
I would say you need to post a replay because it sounds like your composition is alright.
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Hi. platinum Protoss player here. i am having 2 troubles when facing zerg. 1)They go for a 6 pool or 10 pool, so i, having a forge on the low ground, place a pylon and then a cannon in my main. then they send a drone and build a hatch in my main base. i can't move out of my mineral line because thats where my cannon is, and it seems like teching to stargate takes too long. and 2) they show a bigish group of lings at like the 7 minute mark, so im scared to move out or pressure because they might be all-in. and then they play super greedy behind it, and then swarm me with ultra ling infestor.
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Northern Ireland25894 Posts
On May 08 2013 02:39 Ben... wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 02:24 Teoita wrote:
@Ben: dunno too early to tell. It does look incredibly strong though; maybe faster tempests? Yeah it appears to be insanely powerful, on Daybreak it was downright broken because the locusts could stop Protoss from taking two different bases and could attack their middle base all from the middle base, and because of the watch tower you could see any attack coming so the defence portion of it was unbreakable. The only things I can think of are killing it before it can happen (we don't want that to happen again. We don't want a repeat of WoL) or maybe (big maybe) mass upgraded tempest/HT/colossus/archon/mothership. Mothership to cloak everything so the locusts need overseers to do their damage, maybe like 6-8 colossus so you could handle the locusts without taking damage (the usual rule of 4 doesn't appear to work as can be seen from the Flying vs. Roro game. Once there are enough swarm hosts, 4 doesn't cut it.), the tempest to slowly chip away at the static defence, the templar to scare away vipers and infestors along with handling corruptors, and the archons also for corruptors. However, I don't even know if that can work.
Just another reason I am glad Daybreak is finally on the way out.
Incidentally, us Toss seem to be a bit more timing attack/deathbally than I would like in PvZ. Is warp prism abuse still potent against current Zerg styles? I miss that stuff, haven't seen it in pro games in forever 
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 09 2013 12:10 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 11:52 .kv wrote:
I'm having a bit of trouble against a certain timing Terrans have been doing now where they attack when they have +2/+1 MMM with 10 vikings and some additional hellbats. I typically go for the double forge colossus style and this attack hits right around when +3/+3 is 50% done and charge is about 50% done as well. I do have my templar archives down but I don't research storm as I'm aiming for a 3-3 timing with chargelot/archon/blink stalker/colossus. I constantly make colossus out of my robotics as well. I usually have 3-4 colossus, 12 blink stalkers, 3 sentries, 2 archons, rest zealots. I can't vouch exactly what to do, but I can give a few suggestions based on my own play. I've played against these sorts of attack timings that are REALLY strong, but I think the best thing to do is stay ahead of the curve in tech. Unless you're getting pounded into the ground with medivac drops and you can't spare it, I would probably cut colossus after 2-3 and immediately start on storm. This prevents terran from hitting a timing where they can mop up your colossus and walk in for the free win; adding hellbats in is an added bonus for terran, but it doesn't really change the fact much that they've stabilized on tech and have an advantage.
Going up to 2 colossi lets you get storm in time. Going up to 3 means the Terran will always have a timing with vikings before storm is done, so what you can do is just say fuck it, mass colossi, get archons as gas allows and delay storm. This also makes your 3/3 timing stronger, as you'd rather have 4 colossi plus archons than 3 colossi and a few storms. There really isn't much to surviving that timing, you just need a perfect engagement. Using timewarp does help a lot.
I suggest watching Rain vs Flash on Neo Planet S from Proleague, rain shows a great engagement vs that kind of push (no hellbats but the idea is the same).
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 09 2013 13:55 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2013 02:39 Ben... wrote:On May 08 2013 02:24 Teoita wrote:
@Ben: dunno too early to tell. It does look incredibly strong though; maybe faster tempests? Yeah it appears to be insanely powerful, on Daybreak it was downright broken because the locusts could stop Protoss from taking two different bases and could attack their middle base all from the middle base, and because of the watch tower you could see any attack coming so the defence portion of it was unbreakable. The only things I can think of are killing it before it can happen (we don't want that to happen again. We don't want a repeat of WoL) or maybe (big maybe) mass upgraded tempest/HT/colossus/archon/mothership. Mothership to cloak everything so the locusts need overseers to do their damage, maybe like 6-8 colossus so you could handle the locusts without taking damage (the usual rule of 4 doesn't appear to work as can be seen from the Flying vs. Roro game. Once there are enough swarm hosts, 4 doesn't cut it.), the tempest to slowly chip away at the static defence, the templar to scare away vipers and infestors along with handling corruptors, and the archons also for corruptors. However, I don't even know if that can work. Just another reason I am glad Daybreak is finally on the way out. Incidentally, us Toss seem to be a bit more timing attack/deathbally than I would like in PvZ. Is warp prism abuse still potent against current Zerg styles? I miss that stuff, haven't seen it in pro games in forever
Warp prisms are definitely viable, but the annoying thing is that Zergs can kinda just make static defense everywhere and not care much about the zealots. That's why it got used less and less as WoL went on too. It's definitely something that can work though, especially for now and especially on ladder.
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I've had some problems with zerglings sneaking into my base on Akilon wastes. The cannon kills 2 or 3, but if they send 6 some will get into the base and mess my build a lot. Is there any way to avoid this?
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On May 09 2013 16:22 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2013 12:10 SC2John wrote:On May 09 2013 11:52 .kv wrote:
I'm having a bit of trouble against a certain timing Terrans have been doing now where they attack when they have +2/+1 MMM with 10 vikings and some additional hellbats. I typically go for the double forge colossus style and this attack hits right around when +3/+3 is 50% done and charge is about 50% done as well. I do have my templar archives down but I don't research storm as I'm aiming for a 3-3 timing with chargelot/archon/blink stalker/colossus. I constantly make colossus out of my robotics as well. I usually have 3-4 colossus, 12 blink stalkers, 3 sentries, 2 archons, rest zealots. I can't vouch exactly what to do, but I can give a few suggestions based on my own play. I've played against these sorts of attack timings that are REALLY strong, but I think the best thing to do is stay ahead of the curve in tech. Unless you're getting pounded into the ground with medivac drops and you can't spare it, I would probably cut colossus after 2-3 and immediately start on storm. This prevents terran from hitting a timing where they can mop up your colossus and walk in for the free win; adding hellbats in is an added bonus for terran, but it doesn't really change the fact much that they've stabilized on tech and have an advantage. I suggest watching Rain vs Flash on Neo Planet S from Proleague, rain shows a great engagement vs that kind of push (no hellbats but the idea is the same).
It's not the same...I watched the timing Flash attacked where Rain is only 2-2 and they both lost their army equally...if Flash added like 6 or more hellbats to that composition, all those zealots would melt a lot quicker which would've given Flash the win imo...since you are going double upgrades, constant colossus, and archons all your minerals are dumped into zealots that just outright sucks against hellbats
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EPT
