EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 84
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hangarninetysix
263 Posts
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barbaTossa
23 Posts
 go for a Nexus at 16 supply instead of 17 when ffexpanding? | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
What happened in the game: + Show Spoiler + Roro went mass swarm host/corruptor/viper/spine/spore and then just sat there sending locusts and causing huge damage at no cost to him. He waited for Flying to attack. Every time Flying attacked he lost huge amounts of stuff while doing no damage because Roro would use the Scorpion hook on the vipers to snag units into the mass static defence. You keep the swarm hosts close to the static defence so it is difficult to even approach them without suffering losses. This is the style the ROOT guys have been using for couple months or so. Supposedly they have had absolutely insane ZvP win rates with it. | ||
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barbaTossa
23 Posts
9 Pylon (Scout) (Chronoboost x2) 16 Nexus, Forge 16 Probe x2 (Chronoboost) 17 Pylon 18 Gateway, Cannon All SK Telecom T1 do this. I am referring to:  Brown vs.  Hyvaa on Neo Planet S (Proleague R5) rare vs. Rain on Bel'Shir Vestige (Proleague R4) Hydra vs. Parting on Akilon Wastes (Proleague R4) Parting vs. Life on Bel'Shir Vestige (WCS Korea Ro16 Game1) So, why is this? Should I copy it? | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
@barbatossa: uh odd. The difference is so small it's negligible. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On May 08 2013 02:24 Teoita wrote: Yeah it appears to be insanely powerful, on Daybreak it was downright broken because the locusts could stop Protoss from taking two different bases and could attack their middle base all from the middle base, and because of the watch tower you could see any attack coming so the defence portion of it was unbreakable. The only things I can think of are killing it before it can happen (we don't want that to happen again. We don't want a repeat of WoL) or maybe (big maybe) mass upgraded tempest/HT/colossus/archon/mothership. Mothership to cloak everything so the locusts need overseers to do their damage, maybe like 6-8 colossus so you could handle the locusts without taking damage (the usual rule of 4 doesn't appear to work as can be seen from the Flying vs. Roro game. Once there are enough swarm hosts, 4 doesn't cut it.), the tempest to slowly chip away at the static defence, the templar to scare away vipers and infestors along with handling corruptors, and the archons also for corruptors. However, I don't even know if that can work.@Ben: dunno too early to tell. It does look incredibly strong though; maybe faster tempests? | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
I guess this isn't as efficient as having your HT follow different colossi when it comes to avoiding emps, but what I do is all gateway units in group 1, colossi in group 2, templar + msc in group 3. This way I can go 1a 2a 3 right click behind my army. My msc is safe and my templar won't suicide though they do form a cluster if I don't spread them afterwards. When the terran starts kiting, my colossi can easily move forward to get a few hits on bio units while I retreat temporarily with my gateway units, which makes it very tempting for him to come back and then I can hit them with everything, including storms. Since sentries are in 1 and there is no msc or templar in this group, I can easily press g for guardian shield. And against vikings, I have my stalkers in Q too (yay custom hotkeys) in order to blink them all swiftly. Not only that, I also use Alt and Caps Lock as unit hokteys as well... in PvZ, I've recently started using Caps Lock for phoenixes and Alt for my warp prism, though I used to hotkey pylons and my warp prism in caps lock. But I guess having phoenixes in a special hotkey against mutas is a must, because if they strike and your groups are messed up, you're probably dead. | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
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Blaeu
United States10 Posts
On May 08 2013 02:23 barbaTossa wrote: Thanks, Teoita. But I mean they cut probe production at 16 to plant the Nexus. The build order looks more or less like this: 9 Pylon (Scout) (Chronoboost x2) 16 Nexus, Forge 16 Probe x2 (Chronoboost) 17 Pylon 18 Gateway, Cannon All SK Telecom T1 do this. I am referring to: Brown vs. Hyvaa on Neo Planet S (Proleague R5) rare vs. Rain on Bel'Shir Vestige (Proleague R4) Hydra vs. Parting on Akilon Wastes (Proleague R4) Parting vs. Life on Bel'Shir Vestige (WCS Korea Ro16 Game1) So, why is this? Should I copy it? My first post, I hope I'm doing this right. I believe that since they do not scout, all 16 probes are mining minerals so they are optimally saturated. I have a PvZ question. I'm losing to many mid game Zerg pushes that are Roach/Hydra or Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. I know my macro is bad, but I'm not sure how many gateways I should be producing off of. Roughly how many gateways should I have at 15 minutes on 3 bases? Assume one Robo plus Bay and gateways. Sometimes SG too. Also, on that new map, Derelict Watcher, it seems easy to defend your third base due to the ramp positions. However, I find that there is a HUGE amount of open space there for Zerg to swarm you. Do you just rely on FFs or do you make buildings there to help? | ||
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jwe
Sweden24 Posts
On May 07 2013 23:27 Teoita wrote: When doing zealot pressure you can keep warping in as long as he's making lings, as zealots will trade cost effectively against them. Then instant you see roaches you should back out. If your zealots don't have +1 and his lings have speed you will trade less effectively so it's easier to get pushed back by pure ling. I'd say, you should warp in if you still have a decent number of zealots alive (like 4 ish). As long as you have a good unit count and he's making lings, feel free to pressure. Thanks! And also thanks to Sated, the HT follow Collosi is genius! Will surely use this!  ♥ | ||
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jwe
Sweden24 Posts
On May 08 2013 05:44 Blaeu wrote: My first post, I hope I'm doing this right. I believe that since they do not scout, all 16 probes are mining minerals so they are optimally saturated. I have a PvZ question. I'm losing to many mid game Zerg pushes that are Roach/Hydra or Roach/Hydra/Corruptor. I know my macro is bad, but I'm not sure how many gateways I should be producing off of. Roughly how many gateways should I have at 15 minutes on 3 bases? Assume one Robo plus Bay and gateways. Sometimes SG too. Also, on that new map, Derelict Watcher, it seems easy to defend your third base due to the ramp positions. However, I find that there is a HUGE amount of open space there for Zerg to swarm you. Do you just rely on FFs or do you make buildings there to help? When I was Diamond in WoL my friend (coach now) told me that you want 4 gateways for your main, and then 3 gateways per extra base. When your maxed you can of course add more because then you'll save up minerals and gas in your bank instead of warping in constantly. Robo with Col counted as 2 Gateways, and as 1 Gateway without Col. But of course it differs from builds etc, if you cut probes, what units you warpins etc, if you spend resources on tech and stuff like that, but you can have it as a reference. 4 Gates for the main and then 3 extra per base. If you go Collosus from 2-base you can have 5 Gates + 1 Robo that you always warpin from. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
On May 08 2013 02:23 barbaTossa wrote: Thanks, Teoita. But I mean they cut probe production at 16 to plant the Nexus. The build order looks more or less like this: 9 Pylon (Scout) (Chronoboost x2) 16 Nexus, Forge 16 Probe x2 (Chronoboost) 17 Pylon 18 Gateway, Cannon All SK Telecom T1 do this. I am referring to: Brown vs. Hyvaa on Neo Planet S (Proleague R5) rare vs. Rain on Bel'Shir Vestige (Proleague R4) Hydra vs. Parting on Akilon Wastes (Proleague R4) Parting vs. Life on Bel'Shir Vestige (WCS Korea Ro16 Game1) So, why is this? Should I copy it? I have no idea if this is optimal or not, but I am copying it. Difference shouldn't be too relevant anyway. Rsvp does 16 nexus as well, but he usually gets cannon before gate. Comes down to scouting, I guess. | ||
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
When you build at 16 obviously your cannon is gonna be up sooner, so in some cases you dont have to do a block with gateway to keep lings from going in before cannon is done, which saves you like... 37 minerals? and having to do that might even delay your gas. That would be my assumption why they do it. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
On May 08 2013 02:21 Ben... wrote: Anyone see Flying vs. Roro game 1 of the GSL today? Is there anything you can do against that? It looked pretty much impossible. I've been thinking about that style for a while and I haven't really thought of any way. I thought it would go away with Daybreak because that was the primary map it was used on and I didn't think it could be pulled off on any other map. I have a feeling we are going to start seeing it on ladder and it is going to not be fun at all. Hour long games that are that passive are not entertaining either. What happened in the game: + Show Spoiler + Roro went mass swarm host/corruptor/viper/spine/spore and then just sat there sending locusts and causing huge damage at no cost to him. He waited for Flying to attack. Every time Flying attacked he lost huge amounts of stuff while doing no damage because Roro would use the Scorpion hook on the vipers to snag units into the mass static defence. You keep the swarm hosts close to the static defence so it is difficult to even approach them without suffering losses. This is the style the ROOT guys have been using for couple months or so. Supposedly they have had absolutely insane ZvP win rates with it. For anyone else who wants to look at this VOD: It's game 1 of Set 5, not Set 1. ----------------------------------------------------------------- With fairly standard PvZ play (I.e, FFE into SG into third base and Colossi) when do I want to be getting High Templar out? | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On May 08 2013 09:41 Salivanth wrote: For anyone else who wants to look at this VOD: It's game 1 of Set 5, not Set 1. ----------------------------------------------------------------- With fairly standard PvZ play (I.e, FFE into SG into third base and Colossi) when do I want to be getting High Templar out? I'm not sure if it's "right", but I've arbitrarily decided to get my templar archives at the 12 min mark. Vipers probably won't be before 14 minutes anyway, so it should be pretty safe imo. Since I try to get my first colossus out by 10 or 11 minutes, I can generally get a pretty decent amount of colossi before investing heavily into high templar at this point. Hopefully a better player will give you a more reliable answer though, but this seems good so far imo. | ||
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Jintoss
Hong Kong117 Posts
How do you even fight this? My initial thoughts are cannon+ HT for locust management, and a flanking army - the key ingredient being an oracle. If toss can reveal the swarm hosts, he can know when to attack inbetween locust swarms, unlike State who was unfortunate to attack at the worst time twice (arguably because he needed to use his army to kill locusts - the walking distance to the zerg army was just enough for another round). Any one have any insight to offer? This could either really open up PvZ into something like a TvT positional chess thing, or send us back into Infestor Broodlord Ver. 2 | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
Gateway units are really bad late game PvZ especially against swarm hosts. The ultimate P army comp is colossus + void/carrier + HT + immortal. 6-10 colossus to deal with locusts and other ground units, 10+ HT for storm and feedback, a few immortals if the zerg has ultras or static defense, the rest void/carrier (void against corruptor, carrier against hydra/queen). Archons are useless, tempests are bad because they have no DPS, and gateway units are definitely worthless. It takes awhile to build up that army, so my favorite tactic is to just mass zealot warp-in everywhere to buy time to make that army. http://drop.sc/331616 http://drop.sc/331619 | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On May 08 2013 10:05 vhapter wrote: I'm not sure if it's "right", but I've arbitrarily decided to get my templar archives at the 12 min mark. Vipers probably won't be before 14 minutes anyway, so it should be pretty safe imo. Since I try to get my first colossus out by 10 or 11 minutes, I can generally get a pretty decent amount of colossi before investing heavily into high templar at this point. Hopefully a better player will give you a more reliable answer though, but this seems good so far imo. If you just are getting HT to counter vipers (i.e. you already have colossus as your source of AOE), you pretty much just need to have them ready by the time the zerg has vipers out on the field, not any earlier. Since you can warp in HT and they come with enough energy for a feedback, and the zerg typically won't have a huge amount of viper, you don't have to rush to get the HT out. If you scout and see a hive done, or if he's starting to make evo chambers everywhere, start your templar archives (hopefully you already have a council for +2 upgrades). | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On May 08 2013 10:48 rsvp wrote: If you just are getting HT to counter vipers (i.e. you already have colossus as your source of AOE), you pretty much just need to have them ready by the time the zerg has vipers out on the field, not any earlier. Since you can warp in HT and they come with enough energy for a feedback, and the zerg typically won't have a huge amount of viper, you don't have to rush to get the HT out. If you scout and see a hive done, or if he's starting to make evo chambers everywhere, start your templar archives (hopefully you already have a council for +2 upgrades). Yeah, I know you don't need HTs too early for vipers if you don't see the zerg going hive. Don't you think the ability to add archons to your army as well as having storm against corruptors and hydras to be well worth it though? I think corruptors get out of hand at a certain point and storm helps you deal against them. | ||
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