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On May 06 2013 16:18 skyafterrain wrote:
Gold Protoss here,
Is it too safe if I open 3gate/Robo into Expand every match up, how behind would I be against my opponent's FE build ?
The point is I always get 1 base all in in my level, I want to play standard Macro game, but I almost always die before 10 mins mark
Are there any other safe build that won't put me too behind economically ?
Thanks
just learn a solid safe build for each match up, it'll take you a little while to get them tight against the ai and then again against a real player but it will pay off
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 06 2013 14:33 JSK wrote:
Is stargate into templar viable in HOTS in PVZ or do you have to go robo before templar? I noticed in the protoss versus zerg guide that it said stargate > templar was not viable.
Also, could you go 4 Gate +1 into 5 Phoenix Harass/ 3rd nexus? Or should I just choose between stargate harass and 4 gate + 1 before taking a third?
Lastly, is it conceivable that phoenix into zealot/archon could deal with hydra swarmhost? seems like you could go envision with an oracle and lift the swarm hosts right before you move in with zealot/archon. (as an alternative to colossus)
1) I'm not sure you can hold hydra pushes in time, you most definitely still die to oldschool roach max (not that anyone does it), and finally templar aren't very good vs swarm host. All these combined make colossus generally better as your first aoe of choice in a ton of situations (the obvious exception being muta and maaaaaybe ultra/ling but that's debatable/not figured out yet).
2) You actually can do a 4gate +1 push with phoenixes, and then do a normal 3base build after it. Stephano played against, i believe, Flying in GSL on Bel'Shire vestige and died to a push like that.
3) Unlikely. You need really, really strong aoe to kill sh's, and archons alone don't cut it, not to mention that zealots get destroyed by locusts. Archons are a great compliment to your colossi though as they do shred locusts. Lifting up the sh's before going in for an attack is doable even with colossus builds anyway.
On May 06 2013 14:51 dasfewfawdx wrote:
PvP: Are carriers a better late-game composition (transitioning from mass phoenix) than VR + few tempests for sky toss vs. sky toss?
Also, is it possible to stop two-base stalker ht all-ins with VR zealot while saturating your third base or do you need to cut workers to get out more army?
1) Imo skytoss isn't that strong in super lategame pvp, with archon/templar wrecking it. The other day i was more or less maxed on skytoss with a few archons and i dropped 120 supply in a matter of seconds vs monk's archon/templar army when he just blanket stormed my stuff. I engaged horribly but i think the outcome would have been the same. Regarding skytoss mirrors, i don't know. It's basically impossible to transition out of phoenix play anyway. None really knows what the best lategame pvp army is yet, but a mix of a handful of tempests/carriers to force engagements with archon/templar to kill everything on the ground (and in the air) sounds reasonable.
2) When going void ray in the midgame vs gateway play you will always end up with a slower third. Often times, the whole point of blink/archon timings is just to delay the stargate player's third rather than kill them outright. If he isn't taking a third neither should you as even in 2base vs 2base he could outright kill you.
In the games i have been in that spot and lost, the void ray player (again, monk) turtled on 2bases while delaying my third with zealot warpins and teching to colossus, which are actually very strong against gateway play (although you shouldnt mass them as in wol, tempests and void rays to pretty well vs mass colossus obviously).
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 06 2013 16:18 skyafterrain wrote:
Gold Protoss here,
Is it too safe if I open 3gate/Robo into Expand every match up, how behind would I be against my opponent's FE build ?
The point is I always get 1 base all in in my level, I want to play standard Macro game, but I almost always die before 10 mins mark
Are there any other safe build that won't put me too behind economically ?
Thanks
Yes. You should learn how to FFE in PvZ (see the big WoL PvZ guide) and 1gate FE in PvT (there are many variations around the strat forum depending on how greedy you want to be). Both those builds are 100% safe and solid if played correctly and should hold any allin coming your way.
PvP is a little more complex, but i'd recommend picking one of the three tech paths (twilight/stargate/robo) and doing a build you enjoy with it. If you like twilight, try dt expand or blink/msc (very fun but pretty technical builds), if you like stargate learn one of the safe phoenix openers in the recommended thread section, if you like robo try 1gate fe into robo or 3stalker fe into robo (look up rsvp's replay pack here in TL for some replays to study). One base robo is in general NOT recommended as it is very behind certain builds (fast expand, stargate) and it doesn't give you any kind of economic edge nor aggressive potential.
In general PvP is a more coinflippy matchup and you have to accept the fact that sometimes you will just play from behind simply because of the choice of openers.
It's not just about learning how to play a macro game, but doing so with a strong economical opener (like a fast expand) that both puts you in a good position if he also macros, and allows you to hold various allins. All the builds i talked about accomplish that.
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So I've been working on a pressure build, designed to keep hitting the Zerg every few minutes with MsC help. While each attack is hitting (Not all-in thanks to the MsC's Recall ability) I'm teching up towards the next one. The idea is that the Zerg never gets to feel comfortable enough to just drone freely, and has to respond correctly at each step or die, and if they overproduce economy, they'll die to a later attack. Here's how it's supposed to go:
2-Zealot MsC poke, with a Stalker or two rallied across the map from 1 gate. Expand at 4:30.
4-gate pressure, get a Robo for Immortals and Forge for +1 Weapons.
7-gate Immortal/Sentry, get Robo Bay and third. Start +1 Armor.
2.5-base (Not saturated) Colossus push with 3 ranged Colossi. Get TC + second forge for +2/+2 and Blink.
3-base Colossus/Storm push, with +2/+2, Blink, and Storm.
The last parts are basically theory at this point, since I tend to win or die at the third stage. The problem is that Mutas or SH's just wreck me. I'm not sure if it's an execution problem or if the build simply will not work yet, but my question is, is there a way to discourage the Z from going Mutas? I'm thinking I could turn my 4-gate pressure into a 5-gate pressure comprised of a ton of Zealots, essentially forcing the Zerg to make Roaches while I get enough gas to build the Sentries I'll need for the third stage.
Here's a replay of the build going very right, where I keep my opponent on 2 bases by threatening to attack with my first two pushes, kill his third with my third push, and finish him off with Colossi: http://drop.sc/331230
Here's a replay of the build going very wrong, where speedlings make me unable to put on the pressure I'd like to and Mutas catch my Immortal/Sentry and stop it dead: http://drop.sc/331231
Is this just a stupid idea in general, a good idea that happens to die to Mutas, or something that may actually end up viable?
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United States4883 Posts
On May 06 2013 09:44 Ben... wrote:
Having serious issues with zergs making both a spire and a infestation pit at the same time after establishing a third. They make one big round of mutas then go into swarm host/hydra or make swarm host/queen and then switch into mass muta. It feels impossible. I saw it quite a few times on Korea ladder and now I am on NA too. Either you go 2 stargate and have the ability hold the potential mutas and then die to swarm hosts because you won't have colossus in time or you try and defend with one stargate and then usually get rolled by mutas or take enough damage that the swarmhosts work anyway. It feels so frustrating to play against. There is no way to get enough gas to defend outside of taking a super fast (like White-Ra fast. 6:30) third and immediately mining gas. Has anyone got a solid solution to something like this?
I swear I am going to just start doing 2 base all-ins again against Zerg. The matchup isn't even fun to play anymore. Just frustrating. I love the other matchups but if I didn't have to play PvZ I wouldn't. Or I should just go back to playing on KR because the Zergs I played were way more fun and didn't just do stupid mass ling stuff or super greedy early muta builds half the games like so many of my PvZs on NA. I think the thing that is frustrating me the most is that every PvZ I have had the last few days has been different so it has been very hard to practice the matchup properly.
The best success I've had with dealing with this is to just get a few phoenixes out early from a single stargate. This will discourage mutas, deal with small amounts of mutas if they DO end up making mutas, and will help with the beginnings of a swarm host contain. I would probably only add on a second stargate if my opponent committed to corruptors to defend his mutas.
On May 06 2013 14:33 JSK wrote:
Is stargate into templar viable in HOTS in PVZ or do you have to go robo before templar? I noticed in the protoss versus zerg guide that it said stargate > templar was not viable.
Also, could you go 4 Gate +1 into 5 Phoenix Harass/ 3rd nexus? Or should I just choose between stargate harass and 4 gate + 1 before taking a third?
Lastly, is it conceivable that phoenix into zealot/archon could deal with hydra swarmhost? seems like you could go envision with an oracle and lift the swarm hosts right before you move in with zealot/archon. (as an alternative to colossus)
1) Yes. The main reason is that air will generally force some hydras, meaning that you need splash damage asap. Templar take too long and have only limited utility (have a finite number of storms) in the midgame. Therefore, just as a general metagame preparation, you should always be doing some kind of stargate play into colossus (unless you're planning on hardcore airtossing it).
2. You can do both actually get a 3rd behind either of those (with the right considerations). You can also do 4-gate + stargate where your 4-gate hits a little later, but you have void rays or oracles to prevent any counter-pressure. From there, you can take a 3rd safely and add on 4-5 phoenixes for a macro game.
3. I don't see it happening. Locusts + hydras chew through zealots. And I don't imagine you would be able to get very close with your air due to spores/queens/hydras. SO! Either you're going to want a big colossus force or a small pack of blink stalkers running around and picking off swarm hosts in between waves.
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I've run into a problem with my 1 gate expand PvP that I took from RSVP's replay pack.
Almost any kind of pressure I have no problem holding, but versus a Protoss who will get 3 gates and a stargate it can be tricky. You'll have to overcharge when they come when they come with their first four stalkers and a zealot (or a comparable army) and you can't fight that with an army which would be 1 zealot, 1 stalker, 2 sentries, 1 MSC. So I overcharge, he backs off. Then he waits for his first void to join his army, second void joins his army, warps in more units and he comes into my natural.
At this point I had made four warp gates and I was cutting probes to get out as many units as possible because I knew he had no natural. Our armies at the last engagement were: (me) - 3z, 7s,2s, and 1msc. (him) 6z, 5s, 1s, 2v. MSC sat at like 70-75 energy during final battle. I figure I made a mistake not putting down the robo because 4 gates won't beat 3 gates + void production.
So I had a three ideas, want to get some input:- Idea#1 - forcefield my natural ramp to buy more time for the next overcharge.
- Idea#2 - photon cannons?
- Idea#3 - Let my nexus get taken down to 40-50% so that it buys time for me to chain two overcharges. I had originally used it when my nexus was at 75% HP. If I had let him fire on it until I had 140 energy (enough for 1 overcharge lasting 60 seconds, then I would have enough for another) he would have brought it down to 40%.
Cannons seem like a bad idea overall, so I think if I could have had another overcharge it would have allowed me to chrono out some immortals and warp in more units.
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Italy12246 Posts
If you know for a fact he's going to stargate allin you then yeah, cannons at your front can work. Otherwise, it's a really really tricky hold, almost a bo loss. You just need godlike micro.
The closest pro game i can think of off the top of my head to study is Hero vs Squirtle on CK during WCS KR; hero goes 4gate phoenix vs squirtle's 2gate expand and just barely breaks him.
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On May 06 2013 16:18 skyafterrain wrote:
Gold Protoss here,
Is it too safe if I open 3gate/Robo into Expand every match up, how behind would I be against my opponent's FE build ?
The point is I always get 1 base all in in my level, I want to play standard Macro game, but I almost always die before 10 mins mark
Are there any other safe build that won't put me too behind economically ?
Thanks
Hey there,
So I'm a brand new transfer to protoss from zerg, so take this with a grain of salt. I've been working on building mechanics and getting a strong economy going early, regardless of how dangerous it is according to current meta(for example, I'm FEing even in PvP). I'm aware of the vulnerabilities, but I feel that the most important thing to do is to first perfect your mechanics. I am currently up to high gold from bronze just doing ridiculously simple builds to ensure I don't miss macro. Tonight, I will be complicating my build just a tad in order to be able to push into plat.
I'm guessing it's not appropriate to advertise streams here, but message me if interested.
I'm sorry I didn't exactly answer your question, but it seems that you are wanting to play the kind of style that I'm playing and we're at the same level right now.
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On May 07 2013 00:40 Teoita wrote:
If you know for a fact he's going to stargate allin you then yeah, cannons at your front can work. Otherwise, it's a really really tricky hold, almost a bo loss. You just need godlike micro.
The closest pro game i can think of off the top of my head to study is Hero vs Squirtle on CK during WCS KR; hero goes 4gate phoenix vs squirtle's 2gate expand and just barely breaks him.
I was afraid to hear this lol. It does seem really difficult to hold. Even with the extra overcharge he can just wait it out and then attack. I guess I'll try the cannons.
On a side note Teoita, do you play very much? I was 1478 M on NA last season and I don't have any P practice partners if you're interested.
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Italy12246 Posts
I hardly do these days lol, fuck uni T_T
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I have trouble with forcefield placement against different army compositions. I know to use it next to my guys to keep Zerglings away, and to keep bio from running away so I can pick off more units, but let's say it's a big engagement of gateway units + colossi vs roach/hydra. What's a good way to organize the forcefields against their army?
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On May 07 2013 01:55 fdsdfg wrote:
I have trouble with forcefield placement against different army compositions. I know to use it next to my guys to keep Zerglings away, and to keep bio from running away so I can pick off more units, but let's say it's a big engagement of gateway units + colossi vs roach/hydra. What's a good way to organize the forcefields against their army?
Split their army up into columns relative to your colossi.
This reduces the number of roach/hydras that can spit onto your zealots deathball AND increases the roach/hydra density making it easier for the colossi to roast them.
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On May 07 2013 01:15 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 00:40 Teoita wrote:
If you know for a fact he's going to stargate allin you then yeah, cannons at your front can work. Otherwise, it's a really really tricky hold, almost a bo loss. You just need godlike micro.
The closest pro game i can think of off the top of my head to study is Hero vs Squirtle on CK during WCS KR; hero goes 4gate phoenix vs squirtle's 2gate expand and just barely breaks him. I was afraid to hear this lol. It does seem really difficult to hold. Even with the extra overcharge he can just wait it out and then attack. I guess I'll try the cannons. On a side note Teoita, do you play very much? I was 1478 M on NA last season and I don't have any P practice partners if you're interested.
What kind of stargate all-in is it? And what do you have? I might be able to help you. ( meaning opening builds)
I go 2gate FE or 2gate robo depending on my pressure with 3 stalkers. If the other toss goes heavy stargate, i response by going HT tech, From here is where it gets tricky. placing 3-4 stalkers defends orcales or 3-4 phoenix , when HTs are up you can feed back both, if he goes void ray go storm ASAP and you should hold. Just use Obs to scout his army comp and army placement / movement. I get like 3-4 obs depending on the maps. useing hulli is also do able but you can't rely on that for to long.
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On May 07 2013 02:39 SkyBlaze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 01:15 Salv wrote:On May 07 2013 00:40 Teoita wrote:
If you know for a fact he's going to stargate allin you then yeah, cannons at your front can work. Otherwise, it's a really really tricky hold, almost a bo loss. You just need godlike micro.
The closest pro game i can think of off the top of my head to study is Hero vs Squirtle on CK during WCS KR; hero goes 4gate phoenix vs squirtle's 2gate expand and just barely breaks him. I was afraid to hear this lol. It does seem really difficult to hold. Even with the extra overcharge he can just wait it out and then attack. I guess I'll try the cannons. On a side note Teoita, do you play very much? I was 1478 M on NA last season and I don't have any P practice partners if you're interested. What kind of stargate all-in is it? And what do you have? I might be able to help you. ( meaning opening builds) I go 2gate FE or 2gate robo depending on my pressure with 3 stalkers. If the other toss goes heavy stargate, i response by going HT tech, From here is where it gets tricky. placing 3-4 stalkers defends orcales or 3-4 phoenix , when HTs are up you can feed back both, if he goes void ray go storm ASAP and you should hold. Just use Obs to scout his army comp and army placement / movement. I get like 3-4 obs depending on the maps. useing hulli is also do able but you can't rely on that for to long.
I'm not sure if all-in is the way to describe it, and I am not sure the exact build, but my opponent was pressuring my natural with three warpgates and a stargate chronoboosting out void rays. I overcharged his first attack with 5 stalkers away, and I cut probes and produced out of four gateways to try to defend. In retrospect I think that was a mistake, but the fact still remains I am not sure what the best solution is if my opponent is producing out of 3 gate + stargate versus my 3 gate + robo. Unless he fights me at my natural while I have photon overcharge going he should be able to force an engagement with me before I get much benefit out of my natural.
My build is fast expansion off 1 gateway and MSC.
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Just wanted to follow up on the ultralisk rush that has been rampant on the ladder. A week or so ago I posted that I thought immortal/archon/storm/zealot would be the way to beat it, and I can say now, after having played this strategy about 5 or 6 times, that I must echo my previous sentiments.
As far as I know, there is no build that wants to get a third base as late as the Zerg does when they are going this strategy. A Zerg typically will expand more around 6-8 minutes depending on the person. I have found that when I scout two bases, I check to see if they're making a lot of lings and if they have speed. I also am very vigilant about checking their third bases, over and over, the second it goes down at like 7:00 minutes, I am almost positive it's the ultralisk build. I get my third base between 9:00 - 10:00 minutes, being very careful not to let a zergling runby through my natural and I start to work on double upgrades, immortals pumping, archons, and everything else into gateway/zealot.
If they don't transition, and frankly their economy is usually so shit at this point that it would be difficult for them to do so, you will wreck ultra/ling. You can storm all their lings/banes as they come in (and even if you don't, I usually have 5-6 archons that do quite nicely) and target fire your 7-8 immortals. I routinely kill 200/200 balls only losing all my zealots usually, which is fine because then you have all your important units left and you can just add more archons and refill with zealots.
This ultraling build that a week ago I was having trouble with is now a pretty easy win all things considered. You can get messed up if they try transitions, it has happened that my opponent makes a pile of banes and tries to bust my third, but I find that they can only do my half-ass transition because of the late third (lack of gas) and lack of resources in general.
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Mh sounds good, I played against it again today, at first I thought swarm host then i quickly realized what it was but was already building 2nd robo, so i figured ill do a timing attack on 3 base. Took too long though and the push kinda got owned,after that i immediately pump immortals and archons but it was too late and i had only one forge. next time I'll immediately go for the army composition you mention and ill definitely go double forge.
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On May 07 2013 05:10 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 02:39 SkyBlaze wrote:On May 07 2013 01:15 Salv wrote:On May 07 2013 00:40 Teoita wrote:
If you know for a fact he's going to stargate allin you then yeah, cannons at your front can work. Otherwise, it's a really really tricky hold, almost a bo loss. You just need godlike micro.
The closest pro game i can think of off the top of my head to study is Hero vs Squirtle on CK during WCS KR; hero goes 4gate phoenix vs squirtle's 2gate expand and just barely breaks him. I was afraid to hear this lol. It does seem really difficult to hold. Even with the extra overcharge he can just wait it out and then attack. I guess I'll try the cannons. On a side note Teoita, do you play very much? I was 1478 M on NA last season and I don't have any P practice partners if you're interested. What kind of stargate all-in is it? And what do you have? I might be able to help you. ( meaning opening builds) I go 2gate FE or 2gate robo depending on my pressure with 3 stalkers. If the other toss goes heavy stargate, i response by going HT tech, From here is where it gets tricky. placing 3-4 stalkers defends orcales or 3-4 phoenix , when HTs are up you can feed back both, if he goes void ray go storm ASAP and you should hold. Just use Obs to scout his army comp and army placement / movement. I get like 3-4 obs depending on the maps. useing hulli is also do able but you can't rely on that for to long. I'm not sure if all-in is the way to describe it, and I am not sure the exact build, but my opponent was pressuring my natural with three warpgates and a stargate chronoboosting out void rays. I overcharged his first attack with 5 stalkers away, and I cut probes and produced out of four gateways to try to defend. In retrospect I think that was a mistake, but the fact still remains I am not sure what the best solution is if my opponent is producing out of 3 gate + stargate versus my 3 gate + robo. Unless he fights me at my natural while I have photon overcharge going he should be able to force an engagement with me before I get much benefit out of my natural. My build is fast expansion off 1 gateway and MSC.
1 gate FE in PvP is really risky.
i don't even know how you defend most builds in pvp with that. sorry, i can't help you.
~edit
when a toss goes stargate all there gas is allocated to the voids and the minerals are dumped into zealots here's, the best advice I could give is massing as many stalkers with 2-3 sentries, have that stalkers target fire the voids and when those are gone force field the stalkers in to keep off zealot swipes. Ideally you want to build a choke near the nexus and fight near it and than run into the choke and force field. also have the nexus cannon target fire as well.
also tried be very careful with the nexus cannon only use when it looks like he going to commit to attack.
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On May 07 2013 10:41 SkyBlaze wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 05:10 Salv wrote:On May 07 2013 02:39 SkyBlaze wrote:On May 07 2013 01:15 Salv wrote:On May 07 2013 00:40 Teoita wrote:
If you know for a fact he's going to stargate allin you then yeah, cannons at your front can work. Otherwise, it's a really really tricky hold, almost a bo loss. You just need godlike micro.
The closest pro game i can think of off the top of my head to study is Hero vs Squirtle on CK during WCS KR; hero goes 4gate phoenix vs squirtle's 2gate expand and just barely breaks him. I was afraid to hear this lol. It does seem really difficult to hold. Even with the extra overcharge he can just wait it out and then attack. I guess I'll try the cannons. On a side note Teoita, do you play very much? I was 1478 M on NA last season and I don't have any P practice partners if you're interested. What kind of stargate all-in is it? And what do you have? I might be able to help you. ( meaning opening builds) I go 2gate FE or 2gate robo depending on my pressure with 3 stalkers. If the other toss goes heavy stargate, i response by going HT tech, From here is where it gets tricky. placing 3-4 stalkers defends orcales or 3-4 phoenix , when HTs are up you can feed back both, if he goes void ray go storm ASAP and you should hold. Just use Obs to scout his army comp and army placement / movement. I get like 3-4 obs depending on the maps. useing hulli is also do able but you can't rely on that for to long. I'm not sure if all-in is the way to describe it, and I am not sure the exact build, but my opponent was pressuring my natural with three warpgates and a stargate chronoboosting out void rays. I overcharged his first attack with 5 stalkers away, and I cut probes and produced out of four gateways to try to defend. In retrospect I think that was a mistake, but the fact still remains I am not sure what the best solution is if my opponent is producing out of 3 gate + stargate versus my 3 gate + robo. Unless he fights me at my natural while I have photon overcharge going he should be able to force an engagement with me before I get much benefit out of my natural. My build is fast expansion off 1 gateway and MSC. 1 gate FE in PvP is really risky. i don't even know how you defend most builds in pvp with that. sorry, i can't help you. ~edit when a toss goes stargate all there gas is allocated to the voids and the minerals are dumped into zealots here's, the best advice I could give is massing as many stalkers with 2-3 sentries, have that stalkers target fire the voids and when those are gone force field the stalkers in to keep off zealot swipes. Ideally you want to build a choke near the nexus and fight near it and than run into the choke and force field. also have the nexus cannon target fire as well. also tried be very careful with the nexus cannon only use when it looks like he going to commit to attack.
Thanks for the suggestion. Honestly I never have trouble holding any other attacks, any kind of gateway/dt/robo pressure doesn't work as far as I have seen. This void ray gateway pressure is the only time I have been killed while defending my expansion and I think I did a fair number of things wrong. As far as I know it CAN be safe versus everything if you react well.
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I never, ever, ever, ever feel safe about moving across the map against a Zerg until I have a maxed army. How do I change my mindset against this? I'm sure so afraid of ling surrounds or the surprise "I have 15 mutas" sort of thing, that I never move out.
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I do the NaNiwa 4 gate pressure build with the stargate follow up. Should I make 4 or 5 phoenix with the follow up ?
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EPT
