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Well, very rarely do you do game-breaking damage in PvZ, like other people have said. I generally anticipate getting a queen kill as a good outcome. As far as I know, it's basically a wash if they have adequate stuff in their natural to defend when you get there. They need 2 queens, or 1 queen and another coming in soon after the fight starts, to prevent you from getting a queen kill, and still they'll need good control/etc.
I doubt doing a build like this is going to help you improve your PvZ or anything. That's going to come more in your mid to late game transitions. The 2 zealot/MSC rush is just an opening preference that I like to do, because I like to test my opponents right off and make sure they're playing honest. I have two replays this season of me outright winning with the 1gate rush, but it's silly to post reps of that. One of the guy tried to defend with a spine + queen but his spine was too late and I just ran him over, didn't lose anything, killed everything he had. Other guy didn't build anything but queens and, again, I just ran him over until he finally killed the zealots. Then I 5gated off 2 base and won the game because he was dead. I'm not going to post any replays, but the build is ridiculously easy to replicate. Allow enough supply to build 2 zealots and an MSC off 26/26, chrono them out, attack with everything while expanding at 26/26. I only take one gas.
You can't do a really early poke like this with an FFE opening obviously(in response to blagooonga), but what a lot of people do is they basically do the same attack but on the Zerg's third base. Get a couple of early gateway units and an MSC and attack if the Zerg takes a third at a normal timing 4:00-4:30. Forces units or does damage.
Killing someone with a 1gate rush in PvT is way more likely though. You can do multiple variations. I used to like getting a fast zealot to disrupt their bunker, but now they they all get a fast reaper so your zealot will just be an easy kill in most games. But then, since they're making that reaper, they have less things that can shoot up, making it easier to harass with the MSC, force marines to leave bunker/etc. To actually kill the Terran you need to stop them from making the bunker or them not lay one for some reason generally. You can also make judgement calls based on your scouting information. If they go no gas, then they're obviously going to try to expo as soon as possible and you might be able to chrono out a zealot to delay their bunker, since you don't have to worry about a reaper threat. If you do break through their natural with the 1gate rush(catch them before their bunker is up), you can reinforce it with warpgate pressure(after expoing yourself) and keep them contained on 1 base for a really long time. It takes so many marines for them to adequately defend against a few stalkers without a bunker that you can almost always push them back and make them wait for more units/tech to get out of their base.
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On May 04 2013 17:20 blagoonga123 wrote:
do you do these pokes even if you're opening FFE? or is it purely with gateway openings
Absolutely do them with FFE. When mentioning the different versions I was actually thinking about FFE.
With gateway opening im not sure you can delay you sentry that long (as in zealot zealot stalker) without playing very risky, and most zerg players will respond to gateway expand with getting early gas + ling speed, so scout for his 3rd timing. if he goes for gasless 3rd then definitely push out like SteveNick describes. (Also, dont push out when FFEing when he goes for speed of course)
If you do gateway opening you can of course do the naniwa 4gate as a followup which was talked about a lot here, its a very aggressive build.
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in pvz how do i know what tech to choose after going for 1 gate expand into 4 gate (what naniwa did alot in dreamhack) i've out right won alot of games from the initial 4 gate pressure itself and if not win i mostly kill their third which is practically a win but i dont know what tech to choose because i try to play reactionary but i cant tell what i should go based on what i see, i see him massing lings to try defend but alot of the times they dont even go mutas. should i risk sending my mother ship core into their main or what?
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Two problems:
1. I'm having trouble figuring out when to build MSC. It's obvious when you go for something like 1gate FE in PvT, where the MSC is essential to your survival, but usually in games I just forget it even exists. Are there some kind of "timings" you guys use to remind yourself "Ok, now it's time to get MSC"? Should I just get it early every game? And to follow-up, when do you NOT build the MSC at all?
2. In PvP after some robo/twilight based early/midgame between us, if I scout him transitioning to voidrays from 2 stargates, how should I respond to that (unit composition)? If I scout it really late, going voidrays myself is kinda bad. One option could be to push right there and then before he gets a lot of voidrays, but I feel like his defense is solid enough with robo units, forcefields, and nexus cannon.
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On May 05 2013 01:04 tuukster wrote:
Two problems:
1. I'm having trouble figuring out when to build MSC. It's obvious when you go for something like 1gate FE in PvT, where the MSC is essential to your survival, but usually in games I just forget it even exists. Are there some kind of "timings" you guys use to remind yourself "Ok, now it's time to get MSC"? Should I just get it early every game? And to follow-up, when do you NOT build the MSC at all?
2. In PvP after some robo/twilight based early/midgame between us, if I scout him transitioning to voidrays from 2 stargates, how should I respond to that (unit composition)? If I scout it really late, going voidrays myself is kinda bad. One option could be to push right there and then before he gets a lot of voidrays, but I feel like his defense is solid enough with robo units, forcefields, and nexus cannon.
1. Getting a MSC at the same time you expand is an OK "timing", then you'll have 100 energy just a bit after Nexus finish if they attack. You always want a MSC, but in some builds you need to cut it, like DT-rushes, Proxy Oracles etc. All gas heavy all-ins. I even prefer to get a MSC before a Stalker when I go 4-gate, because then you have vision up on ramp and sentries will be kindof worthless.
In any other aggresive builds a MSC is good for the recall.
2. Archons and/or storm is always nice, with chargelots behind and some Stalkers aswell. And then you also got your Robotech so you can put 1-3 immortals in the mix as well.
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On May 05 2013 01:04 tuukster wrote:
Two problems:
1. I'm having trouble figuring out when to build MSC. It's obvious when you go for something like 1gate FE in PvT, where the MSC is essential to your survival, but usually in games I just forget it even exists. Are there some kind of "timings" you guys use to remind yourself "Ok, now it's time to get MSC"? Should I just get it early every game? And to follow-up, when do you NOT build the MSC at all?
2. In PvP after some robo/twilight based early/midgame between us, if I scout him transitioning to voidrays from 2 stargates, how should I respond to that (unit composition)? If I scout it really late, going voidrays myself is kinda bad. One option could be to push right there and then before he gets a lot of voidrays, but I feel like his defense is solid enough with robo units, forcefields, and nexus cannon.
1) Unless you are being really aggressive PvT I would get the MSC early because it's a more efficient way to defend yourself early game than additional gateway units. Just ask yourself: what am I spending 100/100 on instead of a mothership core? If you can't think of anything important then you should probably get your mothership core earlier than you are.
2) storm is really good against voidrays
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On May 05 2013 00:00 FireMonkey wrote:
in pvz how do i know what tech to choose after going for 1 gate expand into 4 gate (what naniwa did alot in dreamhack) i've out right won alot of games from the initial 4 gate pressure itself and if not win i mostly kill their third which is practically a win but i dont know what tech to choose because i try to play reactionary but i cant tell what i should go based on what i see, i see him massing lings to try defend but alot of the times they dont even go mutas. should i risk sending my mother ship core into their main or what?
Nani goes for a Stargate in the most of he's game. As I see it there are some options, without knowing what's the best. Maybe some other can answer you. I never do this build even tho I'm at the moment is trying to learn it.
1) Stargate followup with Phoenix, kill overlords, get alot of scouting for "free". Maybe weak against an hydra allin from Zerg. Pretty safe against incoming mutas later on tho.
2) Stargate but Voidrays. 1-2 VR and then go for the third again to deny it. "Mutasafe" in lategame as well.
3) Massive Gateway followup with blink on 2-Base. Get a fast +1/+1 with double forge that you put down the same moment you leave for your 4-gate push (if you can afford 300 minerals?).
4) Robotech with fast collosus, upgrades, zealots and then take a third and go for lategame.
Never send your MSC in a zergs base. You will lose it instantly and if you unlucky (probably) you won't even get the information you need. We have free hallu Phoneix in HoTS, use them in all matchups! Remember that some Zergs go both Hydra and Spire just to keep you in the dark.
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On May 05 2013 01:04 tuukster wrote:
Two problems:
1. I'm having trouble figuring out when to build MSC. It's obvious when you go for something like 1gate FE in PvT, where the MSC is essential to your survival, but usually in games I just forget it even exists. Are there some kind of "timings" you guys use to remind yourself "Ok, now it's time to get MSC"? Should I just get it early every game? And to follow-up, when do you NOT build the MSC at all?
2. In PvP after some robo/twilight based early/midgame between us, if I scout him transitioning to voidrays from 2 stargates, how should I respond to that (unit composition)? If I scout it really late, going voidrays myself is kinda bad. One option could be to push right there and then before he gets a lot of voidrays, but I feel like his defense is solid enough with robo units, forcefields, and nexus cannon.
2. Double forge, more observers, then templar archives. Your army is more mobile, so get some pylons around the map and keep track of his. Go heavy stalker and position most of them on the map to flank your opponents army, then make sure you have at least one more base than he does. Whenever he pushes out, have your stalkers harass him from behind while bringing your zealot/archon about a screen away from the front of his army. As soon as he activates void ray charge blink away and when the charge runs out just hit sandwich his army.
Voids only slaughter stalkers when their charge is active. If you bait the charge and then hit from 2 sides (your units take up more ground space than his, its hard to get a good concave from 1 side), then you will absolutely crush his army and he cannot remake it.
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Italy12246 Posts
Storm is mandatory vs void rays, stalkers alone don't cut it.
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any recommend PvP build(s)  ?
master P
I NEED HELP!
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Does anyone know what the order of units is for 3 stalker rush into 2 gate presure into stargate?
I know i need to add the stargate 4:40ish, but idk how to do that and get stalkers, msc and presure :/
thanks
User was warned for this post
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I do the 2 gate stargate build where you stall gateway production after 1st stalker to get stargate. If you wanna learn how to do that just download any acer teamstory cup replays with team axiom, look for Crank and Alicias PvP. Replays should be available on about any half decent SC2 replay site
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Have some imbalanced idea.Proxy nexus+ probe recall.I once make it on star staition in PVP.But i think toses can make it at all matchups.Better map for it i think a zerus prime(really hard to find proxy on this map).After patch we can try it with proxy oracle.
P.S. Sorry for my bad english)))))
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How the fuck do i stop dts with SG? oracles are fucking the worse detectors ever.
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On May 05 2013 02:41 Teoita wrote:
Storm is mandatory vs void rays, stalkers alone don't cut it.
It works for me if I use the map well, but then you are probably playing against better players who don't charge prematurely (I am mid masters or so, but not even close to gm mmr).
On May 05 2013 09:15 jcroisdale wrote:
How the fuck do i stop dts with SG? oracles are fucking the worse detectors ever.
How did you stop DTs with stargate in WoL? Identify it, block your ramp and make a robo. An oracle can be used as a temporary detector, what you always want observers if they have a dark shrine.
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On May 05 2013 08:11 7mk wrote:
I do the 2 gate stargate build where you stall gateway production after 1st stalker to get stargate. If you wanna learn how to do that just download any acer teamstory cup replays with team axiom, look for Crank and Alicias PvP. Replays should be available on about any half decent SC2 replay site
I cant find a replay :/ can you post one;
Sorry
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 05 2013 09:15 jcroisdale wrote:
How the fuck do i stop dts with SG? oracles are fucking the worse detectors ever.
Yeah i feel like vs dt stuff, stargate/robo is still the best choice.
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Problem for today:
PvZ
I open pretty standard with ffe, then I go TC tech(most of the time blink with +1) and push on 7 gates at about 8:30. I kill 3rd with about 3-4 warps and I'm able to leave with 4-5 zealots and 6-10 stalkers or something around this. And... then I die in about 10 min to mutas harass and any follow-up.
So far I tried:
a) If push goes great: getting charge, +2 atk and DTs. If push works fine I stay at zerg base and win it. But when the push goes great it doesn't really matter.
I tried it when push goes fine and well... simply doesn't work.
a) getting 3rd of my own during push. if zerg goes for macro play it works great obviously, but if he goes for mutas he can hit my main/natural when I start saturating 3rd. Then I die.
c) getting double stargate and going for phoenix. If zerg goes for mutas it's good, if hydras I'm pretty much dead and on 2 bases.
d) robo + stargate. Not enough phoenix to deal with mutas.
e) storm and archons. With blink I'm able to defend mutas, but I have no map control and zerg just expands like there was no tommorow. Then I die.
My current idea is to get mcr meanwhile, stay at zergs natural, expand and recall when needed but I simply don't think it would be much different then storm/3rd base idea.
So... what's wrong? Am I doing something wrong on strategy level? More scouting (if sentries it means delaying push, if robo it's just late)? I'm mid-high dia on EU, so I don't think it's all about micro yet.
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Italy12246 Posts
1) If you are gonna 7gate dont bother with tech, go balls out allin. It sounds like you are doing a half arsed push which yeah can kinda work, but you end up stuck in a wierd place between a strong 2base allin and trying to macro straight up. Choose one of the two, they both work well, but don't try both at the same time.
2) 3base builds are fairly similar to what they used to be in WoL so you can kinda have a feel for the build orders by looking at the PvZ guide. The biggest difference is you ABSOLUTELY MUST keep tabs on the zerg with observers, stargate units and hallucinations. Send one hallucinated phoenix across the map every minute, check his rally point, unit production, tech etc. Every Zerg unit requires a strong reaction from you to be dealt with correctly, and it's paramout to indentify what he's doing and REACT. It seems like you are trying to find a build that blindly accounts for all the Zerg's choices, which does not exist. If you take a third, you have to play as the reactive race, not him imo.
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What do I do if i go dt expand and my opponent is going dark templars as well but I don't realize it before his dts are in my base? Sometimes they get blind forge and i just lose, should i do that as well or is it too big investment if he is doing something else?
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EPT
