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On May 03 2013 22:08 Teoita wrote:
I feel like doing a standard Colossus midgame would still be ok. The keys to beating it (imo) are
1) Identifying it in time and getting immortals to hold the first push. Going over 3 colossi is most definitely dangerous, and i'm not sure about 3. The colossi are really really nice vs all the lings he will have; it's the ultra+ling combo that's scary not just one of the two.
2) Not overmaking stalkers. This is KEY. Stalkers are god awful vs ultra ling. Cut them ASAP.
3) Not sure about this, but, upgrades. Ultra/ling will always be miles ahead in ups compared to your average single forge, stargate/robo/third build. I wonder wether a second forge makes sense, and if s when.
4) After you hold the first push, add templar/storm. I think you might not have enough stuff to defend if you are being too greedy with your tech.
I agree with most of your points, the only thing I don't quite like is the colossus. I find that when the battle happens, you're going to want to macro and target fire the immortals, that's priority, and you won't be able to reliably have your colossi fire upon the lings. When I went colossi I found that they weren't effectively at dealing with the lings because if one or two start hitting an ultralisk, which is common because that's what they lead with, you're toast to the zerglings. Zealots and immortals aren't very good at buffering damage either, they'll die so fast once under ultra/ling pressure, I feel like archons are pretty necessary for a buffer and with all the gas you'll be sinking into colossi/immortal you're unlikely to be able to make many.
I have been adding a second forge as well and I think it helps a lot, I have been getting shields for it actually so my archons can take more ling shots.
On Meta they were talking about the build and Rotterdam suggested that the build would be really bad versus a two base, two robo colossi push, and that you'll need to react with corruptors if this happens. Not sure if that's the case or not, but a two base heavy colossi push at 14:00 minutes would only have to deal with ling/spine if they don't spire.
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On May 03 2013 22:08 Teoita wrote:
I feel like doing a standard Colossus midgame would still be ok. The keys to beating it (imo) are
1) Identifying it in time and getting immortals to hold the first push. Going over 3 colossi is most definitely dangerous, and i'm not sure about 3. The colossi are really really nice vs all the lings he will have; it's the ultra+ling combo that's scary not just one of the two.
2) Not overmaking stalkers. This is KEY. Stalkers are god awful vs ultra ling. Cut them ASAP.
3) Not sure about this, but, upgrades. Ultra/ling will always be miles ahead in ups compared to your average single forge, stargate/robo/third build. I wonder wether a second forge makes sense, and if s when.
4) After you hold the first push, add templar/storm. I think you might not have enough stuff to defend if you are being too greedy with your tech.
I DO agree with this actually. I just want to add two things:
First, I firmly believe that +2 attack is very important as this allows your colossus to ONE shot zergling regardless of their upgrades. +1/+2 Armor is very good vs zergling too. I think the deadly part of ultraling is the tanking ability of zerglings (hence stalker useless). I am not sure how I feel about double forge. But at the very minimum chronoboost that forge.
Second, I would not add a lot of tech. Maybe just robo, robobay, forge and said upgrades, twilight for +2 as this would allow a much bigger push. Take 3rd after you push out. (Just reiterating a strong key point).
I do not agree that templar is nearly as solid as colossus play though. You're going to wiff some of your storms. Once you're out of storm, your army strength diminish quickly.
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Italy12247 Posts
I thought it was +3 that allowed Colo to oneshot lings, you have any math?
Also, as with every PvZ, you need your third at a good timing, say 10-11 minute mark (if you go stargate or whatever). You dont want to wait for coloss/range/upgrades on 2 bases before taking a third.
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On May 03 2013 22:51 qapuk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:08 Teoita wrote:
I feel like doing a standard Colossus midgame would still be ok. The keys to beating it (imo) are
1) Identifying it in time and getting immortals to hold the first push. Going over 3 colossi is most definitely dangerous, and i'm not sure about 3. The colossi are really really nice vs all the lings he will have; it's the ultra+ling combo that's scary not just one of the two.
2) Not overmaking stalkers. This is KEY. Stalkers are god awful vs ultra ling. Cut them ASAP.
3) Not sure about this, but, upgrades. Ultra/ling will always be miles ahead in ups compared to your average single forge, stargate/robo/third build. I wonder wether a second forge makes sense, and if s when.
4) After you hold the first push, add templar/storm. I think you might not have enough stuff to defend if you are being too greedy with your tech. I DO agree with this actually. I just want to add two things: First, I firmly believe that +2 attack is very important as this allows your colossus to ONE shot zergling regardless of their upgrades. +1/+2 Armor is very good vs zergling too. I think the deadly part of ultraling is the tanking ability of zerglings (hence stalker useless). I am not sure how I feel about double forge. But at the very minimum chronoboost that forge. Second, I would not add a lot of tech. Maybe just robo, robobay, forge and said upgrades, twilight for +2 as this would allow a much bigger push. Take 3rd after you push out. (Just reiterating a strong key point). I do not agree that templar is nearly as solid as colossus play though. You're going to wiff some of your storms. Once you're out of storm, your army strength diminish quickly.
How are you going to get your colossi to target fire zerglings? Even if you focused fire them, you're going to have all your colossi focusing one pack of zerglings at a time? I guarantee you this isn't going to work. As for whiffing storms, I don't see how you can 'whiff' them, either the Zerg engages or he doesn't, and he has to lead with the ultras. If they just try to dance back and forth to bait out storms - OK, you're taking a lot of damage every time.
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Go to the unit tester and try it out. I compared 5800/1400 Zerg (148 ling/7 ultra) vs 6450/2100 Protoss (4 Colossi/ 8 immortal/ 20 zealot/ 10 stalker) and it's still not that favourable. If you target fire you can barely win, even though all your expensive tech is now dead and that's being pretty generous to the Protoss assuming they would have been able to crank out 12 expensive units from the robotics and having no corruptors to deal with.
Compare that with 5700/2300 Protoss of 4 high templar, 8 immortal, 32 zealots, 3 archons. If you hit your storms, you crush that army really, really badly. Even if you don't hit all the storms you should have a good chunk of immortals and archons left over, it's the zealots you're going to lose because the immortals the last things getting hit. It's also a vastly easier army to assemble, you can remake on archons super easy, and like I said immortals should be the last thing that get hit so as long as you win, they'll be leftover.
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On May 03 2013 22:55 Teoita wrote:
I thought it was +3 that allowed Colo to oneshot lings, you have any math?
Also, as with every PvZ, you need your third at a good timing, say 10-11 minute mark (if you go stargate or whatever). You dont want to wait for coloss/range/upgrades on 2 bases before taking a third.
Since, I am at work, I cannot test this, but almost every internet page regarding Colossus one shotting a zergling, It is +2, +1 is (15+2)x2 = 34 already, +2 would be (15+2+2)x2 = 38. Zergling hp is 35. Which is a significant upgrade.
And, I would have pushed as soon as I have two colossus (+2 upgrades and colossus range). You can push out before your upgrades finish, it will finish when you attack. If you take third, with all of these tech, and any additional tech, your army size is too thin to make significant damage. You should still get a third early though,
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On May 03 2013 23:10 Salv wrote:
Go to the unit tester and try it out. I compared 5800/1400 Zerg (148 ling/7 ultra) vs 6450/2100 Protoss (4 Colossi/ 8 immortal/ 20 zealot/ 10 stalker) and it's still not that favourable. If you target fire you can barely win, even though all your expensive tech is now dead and that's being pretty generous to the Protoss assuming they would have been able to crank out 12 expensive units from the robotics and having no corruptors to deal with.
Compare that with 5700/2300 Protoss of 4 high templar, 8 immortal, 32 zealots, 3 archons. If you hit your storms, you crush that army really, really badly. Even if you don't hit all the storms you should have a good chunk of immortals and archons left over, it's the zealots you're going to lose because the immortals the last things getting hit. It's also a vastly easier army to assemble, you can remake on archons super easy, and like I said immortals should be the last thing that get hit so as long as you win, they'll be leftover.
Wait, isn't this a fairly biased testing? you have 4 colossus... 8 immortal.... that's not real world proportion. Also you have 10 stalkers, didnt we made it clear that stalker is useless in this case? How about try adding 2 more colossus, maybe less immortals for more zealot. I am not trying to be an ass here, I'd like to know also. But i find your testing quite biased in the storm favor. Also you forgot sentries... Sentries does help colossus alot. Even though ultralisk crush them ff, it would spread them out horizontally for you temporary. Also make sure you have +2 on your colossus.
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Italy12247 Posts
On May 03 2013 23:10 Salv wrote:
Go to the unit tester and try it out. I compared 5800/1400 Zerg (148 ling/7 ultra) vs 6450/2100 Protoss (4 Colossi/ 8 immortal/ 20 zealot/ 10 stalker) and it's still not that favourable. If you target fire you can barely win, even though all your expensive tech is now dead and that's being pretty generous to the Protoss assuming they would have been able to crank out 12 expensive units from the robotics and having no corruptors to deal with.
Compare that with 5700/2300 Protoss of 4 high templar, 8 immortal, 32 zealots, 3 archons. If you hit your storms, you crush that army really, really badly. Even if you don't hit all the storms you should have a good chunk of immortals and archons left over, it's the zealots you're going to lose because the immortals the last things getting hit. It's also a vastly easier army to assemble, you can remake on archons super easy, and like I said immortals should be the last thing that get hit so as long as you win, they'll be leftover.
Unit testers aren't particularly reliable. Obviously you never ever ever want to engage in an open field, especially if you are both at the stage of the game when he first maxes on ultra/ling and is pushing your 3rd. It's actually quite possible to hold that kind of push with much less stuff (naniwa vs leenock). Also, later on as i said you want templar tech regardless.
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On May 03 2013 23:29 qapuk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:10 Salv wrote:
Go to the unit tester and try it out. I compared 5800/1400 Zerg (148 ling/7 ultra) vs 6450/2100 Protoss (4 Colossi/ 8 immortal/ 20 zealot/ 10 stalker) and it's still not that favourable. If you target fire you can barely win, even though all your expensive tech is now dead and that's being pretty generous to the Protoss assuming they would have been able to crank out 12 expensive units from the robotics and having no corruptors to deal with.
Compare that with 5700/2300 Protoss of 4 high templar, 8 immortal, 32 zealots, 3 archons. If you hit your storms, you crush that army really, really badly. Even if you don't hit all the storms you should have a good chunk of immortals and archons left over, it's the zealots you're going to lose because the immortals the last things getting hit. It's also a vastly easier army to assemble, you can remake on archons super easy, and like I said immortals should be the last thing that get hit so as long as you win, they'll be leftover. Wait, isn't this a fairly biased testing? you have 4 colossus... 8 immortal.... that's not real world proportion. Also you have 10 stalkers, didnt we made it clear that stalker is useless in this case? How about try adding 2 more colossus, maybe less immortals for more zealot. I am not trying to be an ass here, I'd like to know also. But i find your testing quite biased in the storm favor. Also you forgot sentries... Sentries does help colossus alot. Even though ultralisk crush them ff, it would spread them out horizontally for you temporary. Also make sure you have +2 on your colossus.
I had fairly realistic upgrades, thermal lance, +2 weapons for Protoss.
As for the unit composition, you have to consider that you won't be making the most ideal unit composition right from the beginning. You don't skip stalkers until you spot roaches or hydras, you are making them pre-emptively as well. That being said, I didn't have stalkers in the storm composition, but I think everyone here is overstating the importance of zealots, they die so, so fast that I don't think it makes much difference but I will redo it and post results. As for the sentries, that's a lot of gas and it isn't going to be worth it to fight ultra ling. If anything it would make your army weaker.
On May 03 2013 23:29 Teoita wrote:
Unit testers aren't particularly reliable. Obviously you never ever ever want to engage in an open field, especially if you are both at the stage of the game when he first maxes on ultra/ling and is pushing your 3rd. It's actually quite possible to hold that kind of push with much less stuff (naniwa vs leenock). Also, later on as i said you want templar tech regardless.
They're not perfect but they can be somewhat informative. As for what you're saying about not fighting in the open, potentially fighting on your side of the map, and adding templar tech, you said that you would add storm after you hold the first attack. I am saying I don't think you'll reliably be able to win without storm, I don't know if you can do that. Some maps you're going to be forced to fight in the open, if you're playing on a map like whirlwind or star station it's going to be pretty hard to not fight in a spot that's somewhat wide open.
Lastly, I think with this build YOU want to be the one to attack. I think the longer you let the Zerg sit on their five bases the worse it's going to be for you. The biggest advantage you have against this build is that when the Zerg hits 200/200, you're pretty much hitting 200/200 at the same time. They will have zero bank, so the biggest Zerg strength, being able to remax very fast isn't available to them. I think the best way to beat this build is to have a good army that can trade efficiently with the ultra/ling and that isn't that hard to remake. If you lose a big colossus/immortal ball, you've more or less lost anyway because it'll take you ages to remake that and the Zerg has five bases.
Once someone plays against it on the ladder and wins with this colossus idea they have, I would be very interested in seeing it. I'll post my game I played versus the guy who did it to me where I did storm/immortal/archon.
http://drop.sc/330236
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Ok i think my ultra passive ultra defensive style in PvT and PvZ are just absolutely terrible against anyone who knows what they're doing and has good enough harass to stop me from getting up my 4 collosus + supplementary tech and wrecking
Do you guys think I need to figure out how to mix in some aggression of my own or else I'll never get to master ><
I think I might have to completely restructure my way of thinking about this game, because I've been in diamond since season 1, never able to actually improve. What do you guys think of deciding on some basic 2 base timing that I can macro out of as long as I get some damage in, and then working on getting all the timings and mechanics of this build down? Is that something that people do?
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On May 04 2013 03:26 blagoonga123 wrote:
Ok i think my ultra passive ultra defensive style in PvT and PvZ are just absolutely terrible against anyone who knows what they're doing and has good enough harass to stop me from getting up my 4 collosus + supplementary tech and wrecking
I need to figure out how to mix in some aggression of my own or else I'll never get to master ><
The two most common reason why defensive player loses are:
1, You are too greedy
2. You are not playing greedy enough.
Note: relative to your opponent.
Without any replay to go by, I am pretty sure your general issue is #1. Generally speaking, you are getting your eco and tech too fast hence therefore you will not have enough units to defend.
Changing your strategy to an aggressive 2 base timing would only supplement your knowledge. Sure why not! It would not hurt. But let me remind you that in Master league there ARE players who does nothing but defensive play, all-in plays, and cheese. They are more crisp and have more general understanding. Who knows, you might have a stronger understanding of aggression that would propel you into master league!
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At least for PvT I dont think there's anything wrong with playing passive and defensive. You do have to have some sort of red line, you have to know what your plan for the game is and have to know when you lose what key mistakes you made in order to improve. For PvZ I feel like its always better to have a playstyle where youre somewhat mobile sharking around and dont just let Zerg drone up like mad - the recall of the MSC makes that so much easier. Exception would maybe be if you go extreme airtoss from the start (But i think thats boring as hell)
If you want you can also learn some 2 base timings, if you learn to do them very well youll improve of course, I'd say try it out and do whats more fun to you. But dont be like "ill do a 2 base attack, it might end the game or not, and then i will.... do whatever", you need to know more clearly what it is you wanna do each game and why you play the way you do.
On the other discussion, as long as you know there arent swarm hosts coming im not sure why you would want colossi over archons. Beefier vs lings, better vs ultras, and much easier to remake. I feel like once a big push with colossi is over and he has ultra ling you should always go zealot archon ht immortal.
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On May 03 2013 23:23 qapuk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:55 Teoita wrote:
I thought it was +3 that allowed Colo to oneshot lings, you have any math?
Also, as with every PvZ, you need your third at a good timing, say 10-11 minute mark (if you go stargate or whatever). You dont want to wait for coloss/range/upgrades on 2 bases before taking a third. Since, I am at work, I cannot test this, but almost every internet page regarding Colossus one shotting a zergling, It is +2, +1 is (15+2)x2 = 34 already, +2 would be (15+2+2)x2 = 38. Zergling hp is 35. Which is a significant upgrade. And, I would have pushed as soon as I have two colossus (+2 upgrades and colossus range). You can push out before your upgrades finish, it will finish when you attack. If you take third, with all of these tech, and any additional tech, your army size is too thin to make significant damage. You should still get a third early though,
+2 colossus if the lings have +0 or +1 armour
+3 colossus is the lings have +2 or +3 armour
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On May 04 2013 04:20 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:23 qapuk wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Teoita wrote:
I thought it was +3 that allowed Colo to oneshot lings, you have any math?
Also, as with every PvZ, you need your third at a good timing, say 10-11 minute mark (if you go stargate or whatever). You dont want to wait for coloss/range/upgrades on 2 bases before taking a third. Since, I am at work, I cannot test this, but almost every internet page regarding Colossus one shotting a zergling, It is +2, +1 is (15+2)x2 = 34 already, +2 would be (15+2+2)x2 = 38. Zergling hp is 35. Which is a significant upgrade. And, I would have pushed as soon as I have two colossus (+2 upgrades and colossus range). You can push out before your upgrades finish, it will finish when you attack. If you take third, with all of these tech, and any additional tech, your army size is too thin to make significant damage. You should still get a third early though, +2 colossus if the lings have +0 or +1 armour +3 colossus is the lings have +2 or +3 armour
You are correct, i calculated the same thing. I feel like this is such an important upgrade vs ling. So either +2 timing that hits before zerg gets +2 armor. Or +3 attack but this may be too late to wait for this but none the less essential for 3-3 lings + andrenal gland.
Since we had a debate earlier on this, I would like to do further testing on how colossus with upgrade advantage afffects actual play.
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Disclaimer: below post is just my experiences as a mid-master player. Just looking for feedback on the general theme of my post.
On the subject of passive vs. aggressive play, I see a lot of high level GMs that are basically balls out aggressive every game. hellokitty was like rank 4 GM last season and his replay pack was almost all aggressive play. I like this style as well. A lot of Terrans, even up in high masters can be beaten with a 1gate rush in some games. I find it relieving in ladder play to get these quick wins and you don't have to risk much to do a build like a MSC/stalker rush while expanding, and it can outright win you the game.
Same thing in PvZ, I outright win a lot of PvZ with 2 zealot/MSC rush while chronoing out warpgate and following up with a 4 or 5 gate push, all while getting my nexus at 26 supply. Sometime you can win with just the 2 zealots + MSC, especially on 4 player maps where they may not have gotten full info with an overlord scout. So you show up at their base and they have a queen and a round of drones on the way. gg. Then there's the chance they scout but try to cut corners and you punish them for that. I almost always get a queen kill unless they make just a ridiculous amount of lings or a super early spine, and if they do those, we're pretty much equal if I just go home without doing damage anyways.
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On May 04 2013 04:26 qapuk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 04:20 hzflank wrote:On May 03 2013 23:23 qapuk wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Teoita wrote:
I thought it was +3 that allowed Colo to oneshot lings, you have any math?
Also, as with every PvZ, you need your third at a good timing, say 10-11 minute mark (if you go stargate or whatever). You dont want to wait for coloss/range/upgrades on 2 bases before taking a third. Since, I am at work, I cannot test this, but almost every internet page regarding Colossus one shotting a zergling, It is +2, +1 is (15+2)x2 = 34 already, +2 would be (15+2+2)x2 = 38. Zergling hp is 35. Which is a significant upgrade. And, I would have pushed as soon as I have two colossus (+2 upgrades and colossus range). You can push out before your upgrades finish, it will finish when you attack. If you take third, with all of these tech, and any additional tech, your army size is too thin to make significant damage. You should still get a third early though, +2 colossus if the lings have +0 or +1 armour +3 colossus is the lings have +2 or +3 armour You are correct, i calculated the same thing. I feel like this is such an important upgrade vs ling. So either +2 timing that hits before zerg gets +2 armor. Or +3 attack but this may be too late to wait for this but none the less essential for 3-3 lings + andrenal gland. Since we had a debate earlier on this, I would like to do further testing on how colossus with upgrade advantage afffects actual play.
If you use a gateway opening then you are not going to get anywhere near a 3 base +2 colo timing before the zerg has 2/2 lings. It is more likely that the zerg would be 2/2 while you are only 1/0. In fact, you would be better off just skipping the forge entirely. I do not even think you could do a 2 base +2 colo push in time, although my gate expand is uneconomical so you might manage it with a more naniwa style opening.
Basically, with a gateway opening you need to aim for a +3 timing if you want colo to one hit lings. A forge opening would be different, ofcourse.
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On May 04 2013 04:38 SteveNick wrote:
Disclaimer: below post is just my experiences as a mid-master player. Just looking for feedback on the general theme of my post.
On the subject of passive vs. aggressive play, I see a lot of high level GMs that are basically balls out aggressive every game. hellokitty was like rank 4 GM last season and his replay pack was almost all aggressive play. I like this style as well. A lot of Terrans, even up in high masters can be beaten with a 1gate rush in some games. I find it relieving in ladder play to get these quick wins and you don't have to risk much to do a build like a MSC/stalker rush while expanding, and it can outright win you the game.
Same thing in PvZ, I outright win a lot of PvZ with 2 zealot/MSC rush while chronoing out warpgate and following up with a 4 or 5 gate push, all while getting my nexus after at 26 supply. Sometime you can win with just the 2 zealots + MSC, especially on 4 player maps where they may not have gotten full info with an overlord scout. So you show up at their base and they have a queen and a round of drones on the way. gg. Then there's the chance they scout but try to cut corners and you punish them for that. I almost always get a queen kill unless they make just a ridiculous amount of drones or a super early spine, and if they do those, we're pretty much equal if I just go home without doing damage anyways.
Hmm this is the kind of thing I wanted to learn to do! I think i'm going to try when i get home
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On May 04 2013 04:54 hzflank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 04:26 qapuk wrote:On May 04 2013 04:20 hzflank wrote:On May 03 2013 23:23 qapuk wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Teoita wrote:
I thought it was +3 that allowed Colo to oneshot lings, you have any math?
Also, as with every PvZ, you need your third at a good timing, say 10-11 minute mark (if you go stargate or whatever). You dont want to wait for coloss/range/upgrades on 2 bases before taking a third. Since, I am at work, I cannot test this, but almost every internet page regarding Colossus one shotting a zergling, It is +2, +1 is (15+2)x2 = 34 already, +2 would be (15+2+2)x2 = 38. Zergling hp is 35. Which is a significant upgrade. And, I would have pushed as soon as I have two colossus (+2 upgrades and colossus range). You can push out before your upgrades finish, it will finish when you attack. If you take third, with all of these tech, and any additional tech, your army size is too thin to make significant damage. You should still get a third early though, +2 colossus if the lings have +0 or +1 armour +3 colossus is the lings have +2 or +3 armour You are correct, i calculated the same thing. I feel like this is such an important upgrade vs ling. So either +2 timing that hits before zerg gets +2 armor. Or +3 attack but this may be too late to wait for this but none the less essential for 3-3 lings + andrenal gland. Since we had a debate earlier on this, I would like to do further testing on how colossus with upgrade advantage afffects actual play. If you use a gateway opening then you are not going to get anywhere near a 3 base +2 colo timing before the zerg has 2/2 lings. It is more likely that the zerg would be 2/2 while you are only 1/0. In fact, you would be better off just skipping the forge entirely. I do not even think you could do a 2 base +2 colo push in time, although my gate expand is uneconomical so you might manage it with a more naniwa style opening. Basically, with a gateway opening you need to aim for a +3 timing if you want colo to one hit lings. A forge opening would be different, ofcourse.
Yeah yesterday I played a friend, he blind countered my gateway opening with triple hatch, and then I sorta blind countered him doing the mass ling style by doing a 2 base colossus all in. I felt like getting a forge wasn't even worth it for that, I wasnt ever gonna catch up anyways, and I think neither did Parting think that against life (although he did lose in those games)
On May 04 2013 04:38 SteveNick wrote:
Disclaimer: below post is just my experiences as a mid-master player. Just looking for feedback on the general theme of my post.
On the subject of passive vs. aggressive play, I see a lot of high level GMs that are basically balls out aggressive every game. hellokitty was like rank 4 GM last season and his replay pack was almost all aggressive play. I like this style as well. A lot of Terrans, even up in high masters can be beaten with a 1gate rush in some games. I find it relieving in ladder play to get these quick wins and you don't have to risk much to do a build like a MSC/stalker rush while expanding, and it can outright win you the game.
Same thing in PvZ, I outright win a lot of PvZ with 2 zealot/MSC rush while chronoing out warpgate and following up with a 4 or 5 gate push, all while getting my nexus at 26 supply. Sometime you can win with just the 2 zealots + MSC, especially on 4 player maps where they may not have gotten full info with an overlord scout. So you show up at their base and they have a queen and a round of drones on the way. gg. Then there's the chance they scout but try to cut corners and you punish them for that. I almost always get a queen kill unless they make just a ridiculous amount of lings or a super early spine, and if they do those, we're pretty much equal if I just go home without doing damage anyways.
I've had terrans leave after my inital MSC stalker harass when hots was new but zerg losing to the 2 zealot/MSC sounds very crazy ^^. the zerg i play aren't able to hold it off easily with queens and like 6 lings like TLO might, but they never get close to dying, i just find that really weird ^^
but yeah blagoonga in PvZ you should definitely poke either with zealot+stalker+msc or with zealot+zealot+msc or even with zealot+zealot+stalker+msc (several chronos in the gateway in this case). Unless sth like a baneling bust or a mass ling attack is coming of course.
For PvT at Dreamhack Grubby killed a 1.3k master Terran in both games with his very first units, he built a 12 gateway and just immediately sent his zealot to kill the bunker building scv (1 rax FE), stalker and msc followed and yeah he just died ^^
But nowadays I wouldnt ever build a 2nd stalker before expanding, just delays the nexus too much, even though it can do good damage vs low master players, I dont like relying on my opponents fucking up.
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do you do these pokes even if you're opening FFE? or is it purely with gateway openings
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On May 04 2013 04:38 SteveNick wrote:
Disclaimer: below post is just my experiences as a mid-master player. Just looking for feedback on the general theme of my post.
On the subject of passive vs. aggressive play, I see a lot of high level GMs that are basically balls out aggressive every game. hellokitty was like rank 4 GM last season and his replay pack was almost all aggressive play. I like this style as well. A lot of Terrans, even up in high masters can be beaten with a 1gate rush in some games. I find it relieving in ladder play to get these quick wins and you don't have to risk much to do a build like a MSC/stalker rush while expanding, and it can outright win you the game.
Same thing in PvZ, I outright win a lot of PvZ with 2 zealot/MSC rush while chronoing out warpgate and following up with a 4 or 5 gate push, all while getting my nexus at 26 supply. Sometime you can win with just the 2 zealots + MSC, especially on 4 player maps where they may not have gotten full info with an overlord scout. So you show up at their base and they have a queen and a round of drones on the way. gg. Then there's the chance they scout but try to cut corners and you punish them for that. I almost always get a queen kill unless they make just a ridiculous amount of lings or a super early spine, and if they do those, we're pretty much equal if I just go home without doing damage anyways.
Do you mind uploading a replay so that I can see this? I'm currently at a fucking loss at what to do in PvZ to the point where I'm 3-15 on the season. I apparently can't even all-in properly it's gotten that bad.
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EPT
