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On May 07 2013 13:01 Enchanted wrote:
I do the NaNiwa 4 gate pressure build with the stargate follow up. Should I make 4 or 5 phoenix with the follow up ?
I think most people move out on 4. I believe the theory here is that 4 phoenixes will kill a queen in one lift if uninterrupted. Whether or not you build more depends on their response. Obviously you keep building if they're going muta, but if they're defending to the point where you can no longer do damage or gain any real use out of them, then stop building them obviously. Personally, I usually stop on 4, but sometimes I'll move out on 4 while rallying a couple more to join up if I feel like phoenix harass is going to be effective.
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On May 07 2013 11:12 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 10:41 SkyBlaze wrote:On May 07 2013 05:10 Salv wrote:On May 07 2013 02:39 SkyBlaze wrote:On May 07 2013 01:15 Salv wrote:On May 07 2013 00:40 Teoita wrote:
If you know for a fact he's going to stargate allin you then yeah, cannons at your front can work. Otherwise, it's a really really tricky hold, almost a bo loss. You just need godlike micro.
The closest pro game i can think of off the top of my head to study is Hero vs Squirtle on CK during WCS KR; hero goes 4gate phoenix vs squirtle's 2gate expand and just barely breaks him. I was afraid to hear this lol. It does seem really difficult to hold. Even with the extra overcharge he can just wait it out and then attack. I guess I'll try the cannons. On a side note Teoita, do you play very much? I was 1478 M on NA last season and I don't have any P practice partners if you're interested. What kind of stargate all-in is it? And what do you have? I might be able to help you. ( meaning opening builds) I go 2gate FE or 2gate robo depending on my pressure with 3 stalkers. If the other toss goes heavy stargate, i response by going HT tech, From here is where it gets tricky. placing 3-4 stalkers defends orcales or 3-4 phoenix , when HTs are up you can feed back both, if he goes void ray go storm ASAP and you should hold. Just use Obs to scout his army comp and army placement / movement. I get like 3-4 obs depending on the maps. useing hulli is also do able but you can't rely on that for to long. I'm not sure if all-in is the way to describe it, and I am not sure the exact build, but my opponent was pressuring my natural with three warpgates and a stargate chronoboosting out void rays. I overcharged his first attack with 5 stalkers away, and I cut probes and produced out of four gateways to try to defend. In retrospect I think that was a mistake, but the fact still remains I am not sure what the best solution is if my opponent is producing out of 3 gate + stargate versus my 3 gate + robo. Unless he fights me at my natural while I have photon overcharge going he should be able to force an engagement with me before I get much benefit out of my natural. My build is fast expansion off 1 gateway and MSC. 1 gate FE in PvP is really risky. i don't even know how you defend most builds in pvp with that. sorry, i can't help you. ~edit when a toss goes stargate all there gas is allocated to the voids and the minerals are dumped into zealots here's, the best advice I could give is massing as many stalkers with 2-3 sentries, have that stalkers target fire the voids and when those are gone force field the stalkers in to keep off zealot swipes. Ideally you want to build a choke near the nexus and fight near it and than run into the choke and force field. also have the nexus cannon target fire as well. also tried be very careful with the nexus cannon only use when it looks like he going to commit to attack. Thanks for the suggestion. Honestly I never have trouble holding any other attacks, any kind of gateway/dt/robo pressure doesn't work as far as I have seen. This void ray gateway pressure is the only time I have been killed while defending my expansion and I think I did a fair number of things wrong. As far as I know it CAN be safe versus everything if you react well.
From my experience, ( doing 3 gate stargate push, similar to the one you described ) you either need multiple cannons and enough stalkers so the ´voids cant fly past cannons and rape all AA,
OR, which is imo the better version, you pretty much copy his build, after taking your expo. The Stargate push with voids takes time to produce and rally the rays, if you have a similar army with 1-2 less voidrays ( but more ground cause of your eco advantage) , you win. This is pretty much the only Expansion BO, that wasnt a lololol walkover on a regular basis.
Still it will be a coinflip at best if you survive, 1 gate expo pvp, is semi suicidal imo, then again in this meta people arent really opting to punish it.
What you should worry about even more is 2 phoenix that kill the MSC before the push, without overcharge that first voidray timing ( even delayed by 2 phoenix) is brutal imo.
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Italy12246 Posts
Ultra stuff: that's actually a good point about the third base. 2base fast lair (before double evo) does take it a lot later. I think you could also chrono about 1-2 zealots (i like 2 vs gas openings) and scout his third timing pretty reliably.
1gate fe pvp: i wouldn't call it safe vs everything. You can hold stuff if you play much better than your opponent, but things like a good blink allin or 4gate phoenix are really, really, really tough to hold.
edit: also i think 1gate fe into stargate is much, much weaker to every other push compared to 1gate fe into robo, including a one base phoenix 4gate.
supah: you need to keep scouting the zerg to figure out what he's making. Try to keep an obs at his rally point and use halluciations to figure things out. If he's going muta (as in, you see he's only producing a ton of lings) and you dont have a pack of phoenixes you NEED to push to prevent the mutas from popping up, otherwise if he's only making a ground army it's fine to strengthen yours while simply moving around the map containing the creep. Always bring the msc with you to recall.
Enchanted: generally it's a matter of personal preference. Specifically with naniwa's build i think i'd go for 4 though, you mine gas a lot later than normal and you really want to invest that gas in upgrades/tech/sentries.
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Is there a more up to date version of http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255? I am trying to find some safe builds and how to execute them but everything seems so be super out dated for hots.
For example I want my main build to be the naniwa 4 gate to stargate in PvZ, I do 1 gate FE in PvT and PvP I have no clue but want to figure out a PvP opener, most threads seem extremely outdated for the meta though.
basically pretty frustrated trying to find up to date builds.
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How do I deal with mass ghost viking(no other unit). Everytime I engage they snipe observer with vikings and cloak ghost destroy my whole army and i lose a ton of expensive units to nothing. Kind like in pvp Mothership phoenix but much harder to deal with because of scan. Is there a way to go about this?
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Italy12246 Posts
On May 07 2013 19:01 Esoterikk wrote:Is there a more up to date version of http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=284255? I am trying to find some safe builds and how to execute them but everything seems so be super out dated for hots. For example I want my main build to be the naniwa 4 gate to stargate in PvZ, I do 1 gate FE in PvT and PvP I have no clue but want to figure out a PvP opener, most threads seem extremely outdated for the meta though. basically pretty frustrated trying to find up to date builds.
There aren't very many updated, quality guides yet. All those in there are still somewhat relevant.
I'll take a look at that thread again when i have time, possibly this week.
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Wow, that is GLORIOUS stuff Sated. I MUST start doing that Templar trick, holy crap! I'm too slow to manually spread Templar constantly, but this is a great cheat! I never get to the mass Ghost/Viking stage but I often get to the stage with Colossi and Templar off 4-5 bases.
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So I've been working on a pressure build, designed to keep hitting the Zerg every few minutes with MsC help. While each attack is hitting (Not all-in thanks to the MsC's Recall ability) I'm teching up towards the next one. The idea is that the Zerg never gets to feel comfortable enough to just drone freely, and has to respond correctly at each step or die, and if they overproduce economy, they'll die to a later attack. Here's how it's supposed to go:
2-Zealot MsC poke, with a Stalker or two rallied across the map from 1 gate. Expand at 4:30.
4-gate pressure, get a Robo for Immortals and Forge for +1 Weapons.
7-gate Immortal/Sentry, get Robo Bay and third. Start +1 Armor.
2.5-base (Not saturated) Colossus push with 3 ranged Colossi. Get TC + second forge for +2/+2 and Blink.
3-base Colossus/Storm push, with +2/+2, Blink, and Storm.
The last parts are basically theory at this point, since I tend to win or die at the third stage. The problem is that Mutas or SH's just wreck me. I'm not sure if it's an execution problem or if the build simply will not work yet, but my question is, is there a way to discourage the Z from going Mutas? I'm thinking I could turn my 4-gate pressure into a 5-gate pressure comprised of a ton of Zealots, essentially forcing the Zerg to make Roaches while I get enough gas to build the Sentries I'll need for the third stage.
Here's a replay of the build going very right, where I keep my opponent on 2 bases by threatening to attack with my first two pushes, kill his third with my third push, and finish him off with Colossi: http://drop.sc/331230
Here's a replay of the build going very wrong, where speedlings make me unable to put on the pressure I'd like to and Mutas catch my Immortal/Sentry and stop it dead: http://drop.sc/331231
Is this just a stupid idea in general, a good idea that happens to die to Mutas, or something that may actually end up viable?
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Italy12246 Posts
LOL sated that's genius. You can just spread the colossi and the templar will automatically follow, and ofc it's easier to spread colossi. lolololol fuckin awesome man.
Salivanth: i feel like it's reasonable but you are overdoing it. By having that many pushes oyu end up delaying tech and economy a lot. I'd cut it down to something like zealot poke/gateway pressure/2base timing into recall+third, or even just zealot poke/warpgate pressure+third/3base timing+recall.
Regarding specific tech you really just have to scout. Ideally if you play that aggressively he shouldnt be able to get mutas up very easily which is nice.
Also, a build like that would be incredibly hard to execute. If you mess up just one of those timings, all the others go out of the window and you end up horribly behind.
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I use the observer following collosus control a lot vs. swarm hosts, too. It helps out a lot if you don't want to micro your observers individually and also don't want them flying into spores. Just track them on a collosus and they'll be there when you need them to reveal the swarm hosts.
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yeah its at least as important vs swarm hosts
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On May 07 2013 20:27 Teoita wrote:
LOL sated that's genius. You can just spread the colossi and the templar will automatically follow, and ofc it's easier to spread colossi. lolololol fuckin awesome man.
Salivanth: i feel like it's reasonable but you are overdoing it. By having that many pushes oyu end up delaying tech and economy a lot. I'd cut it down to something like zealot poke/gateway pressure/2base timing into recall+third, or even just zealot poke/warpgate pressure+third/3base timing+recall.
Regarding specific tech you really just have to scout. Ideally if you play that aggressively he shouldnt be able to get mutas up very easily which is nice.
Also, a build like that would be incredibly hard to execute. If you mess up just one of those timings, all the others go out of the window and you end up horribly behind.
I like the idea of zealot poke/gateway pressure/2-base timing into recall+third, though I find it interesting that the 3-base Colossus timing is the one you chose to cut. I would have thought the 2-base timing would be by far the most disruptive to tech and economy, whereas the 3-base Colossus timing involves only stuff you want to have anyway on your way to Templar.
Of course, it's also possible that when I play standard, I just get Templar WAY too slowly. If I go for FFE into Stargate play, then take a third and go for Colossi, when do I want to tech to Templar?
And I'm okay with it being hard to execute: The Zergs tend to make a lot of mistakes if I'm able to get over there and feint/pressure them and make it a bit easier on me, plus it'll push me to improve my multitasking.
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Austria24422 Posts
I feel super smart now since I've been doing that templar trick for a year :D
Have to start doing the same with observers.
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How far do I want to go with my 4-Gate push in PvZ?
If I do Naniwas for example, 2 warpins is standard at mostly enough, but what if he defends it pretty well? Last game I did 5 warpins and killed the hatch, alot of lings (30-35?) and 2-3 queens. I got 4 gases behind after the 3rd warpin and had a stargate up when the 3rd fall.
Is it worth it? 5 warpins is 2000 minerals. But he loses a 3rd base, lings and droneproduction.
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Italy12246 Posts
When doing zealot pressure you can keep warping in as long as he's making lings, as zealots will trade cost effectively against them. Then instant you see roaches you should back out.
If your zealots don't have +1 and his lings have speed you will trade less effectively so it's easier to get pushed back by pure ling. I'd say, you should warp in if you still have a decent number of zealots alive (like 4 ish). As long as you have a good unit count and he's making lings, feel free to pressure.
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what follow up i should do if dt fail? beside from expanding (pvp)
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Italy12246 Posts
Generally DT expand lends itself to a gateway heavy midgame, so tech to either blink/charge, get about 7 gates and put some pressure on with blink/archon or zealot/archon while taking a faster third than your opponent and keeping map control.
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EPT
