Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders.
On May 12 2013 07:02 Teoita wrote: Also even terrans don't do it because it's a waste of time and requires waaaay too much apm, and since advice in general in this forum should be about pro game references: i dare you to find a single vod in which the terran beats an ultralisk army through dropship micro.
Not related to ultras, but relevant. Terrans don't do it because in HotS there's obviously better tools available as seen by the recent WCS (AM) Polt's bio/widow mineWCS(AM) Polt who uses lines of widow mines to deter/punish flanking, as I had suggested in Terran Help Me thread.
Here Polt lines the widow mine diagonally to protect his bio army against ling/bling, that way as the bio army retreats further back, idrA's army giving chase will progressively become weaker, triggering mines as they push forward, creating a thin red line and a baited trap.
No, it is not, I've posted this before but I'll repeat myself
WMs are a flexible solution to the Terran player, both in field deployment (active engagement) or tactical deployment (passive deployment)
Because of it's high supply cost and ridiculously low dps, the window for passive engagements is likely for the first 10" of the game where you place WMs where the opponent MIGHT be versus active deployment where you place WMs where they WILL be. Thereafter it becomes increasing difficult to justify such tactical deployments, such as placing 4 WMs at every watch tower when each side has grown close to 200/200 army and 4+ mining bases.
Thereafter, to continue to use WMs at this point is to use them in field deployments, bringing them with your main army to fulfil these roles:
1. Passive spotter, extend range of siege tanks, monitor expansions/supply routes/etc, 2. Thin red line, protect flanks, deter advancement, bait an engagement (trigger mines), etc 3. It's a trap!, preset a line of WM and have retreating army retreat into/past it to trigger Epic line by General Ackbar from Star Wars 6,
Mines are only as good as it lands, two main methods.
Bait, use WMs as a death trap, if opponent a-moves their army into your drop/army/etc BOOM!! Drilling claw upgrade is optional. Ideally, opponent does not know their locations. Easy example, WM up a watchtower and place a single thor, opponent takes the bait and a-moves his 25 muta flock in for an "easy" kill, then BOOM, glorious delicious Zerg tears.
Fencing, use WMs to cut off sections of the map, in live engagements, deploying WM at the side of a ramp to prevent them from flanking your own army and/or resuppling their army.
----- You are overstating the APM requirement, seriously, how much APM does presetting an army group of the 4 immortals, set prism on follow and in-battle:
double tap army group #3 (for example) to pan camera to them,
click on injured immortal within the UI (reduces chance of clicking the wrong unit)
right-click on prism
left-click on immortal to drop it back down
Repeat step 1
No, it is not APM intensive as you like to claim but I do agree it is mentally taxing. Given that a poster above says you never want more than 5 immortals max in your army, a single prism can at least mean 2 immortals make it out alive.
Who said that? Against a really ultra heavy army I really wouldnt mind having more than 5. And I would definitely rather have 6 than 5 and a warp prism to potentially save some immortals. Also if you fly with a warp prism to the battlefront theres the danger of infestors / queens killing it. And ideally immortals should be in the back anyways. If I'm losing the battle and i wanna save some key units then sure I might try to do that with a warp prism if it has speed or theres not enough anti air units. But for the main part of the fight I think anyone who isnt grandmaster should focus more on all other battle micro than doing that. I'd rather just kite with my immortals so that they dont die AND keep doing damage, every single immortal shot counts a lot against ultras. To do warp prism micro without losing dps while also microing the rest of the fight to the best of your ability is definitely unrealistic for everyone who isnt a high level progamer.
On May 12 2013 10:42 7mk wrote: Against a really ultra heavy army I really wouldnt mind having more than 5. And I would definitely rather have 6 than 5 and a warp prism to potentially save some immortals. Also if you fly with a warp prism to the battlefront theres the danger of infestors / queens killing it. And ideally immortals should be in the back anyways.
if immortals/colossi are at the back, assuming zealot/archon as the meat shield of choice, its unlikely to even be the target of FG as mass charglots would be a much bigger threat to the ultra/ling/infestor than 4-6 immortals at the back and certainly out of range to the infestors at the back of the ultra/ling army. Ultras have an incredibly large battlefield footprint.
On May 12 2013 10:42 7mk wrote: If I'm losing the battle and i wanna save some key units then sure I might try to do that with a warp prism if it has speed or theres not enough anti air units.
You bring up an interesting point, phoniex can be used the same as prisms, doing pick-drop micro with lift. I remember seeing it being used back in WoL beta. I think it was Grubby in '11?
On May 12 2013 10:42 7mk wrote: But for the main part of the fight I think anyone who isnt grandmaster should focus more on all other battle micro than doing that. I'd rather just kite with my immortals so that they dont die AND keep doing damage, every single immortal shot counts a lot against ultras. To do warp prism micro without losing dps while also microing the rest of the fight to the best of your ability is definitely unrealistic for everyone who isnt a high level progamer.
imho, you lose less dps doing pick-drop micro, I've noticed about a 1 second lag between a move command and when an immortal beings firing.
Also, I have almost never seen a pro-P, micro focus fire with zealot/archon these days.
I do agree better scouting for a BO/unit composition win is much easier than battlefront micro, any day of the week.
On May 12 2013 01:03 Bahajinbo wrote: Usually I'm pretty strong in PvZ, but this season is just a mess.
1.) What do you even do on Derelict Watcher? In a macro game, I was never able to secure a 4th base and zerg takes the whole map. Pure skytoss? 2 base timings?
2.) How do you observe these nasty instant tech-switches? Last game I played against a zerg and I was pretty sure he will go fast 3-3 Ultras. Then suddenly 30 mutas appear and kill my eco. How the hell should I know?
I hate the new maps so much... It's the worst map pool for seasons.
Yeah Derelict Watcher versus Zerg is pretty stupid (Against Terran it isn't so bad. Protoss is kinda spread out on it but the map is totally playable if you split your army properly for drops). It is so open and huge that it is practically impossible to pressure or punish Zerg without taking a huge risk. The third is easy but every base after that is impossible unless the Zerg is ridiculously passive. I've lost countless games against Zergs that I have been massively ahead of simply because I could not keep my economy going while they took half the map. After not winning a single macro game against Zerg on it I just did all-ins on it for a bit before finally vetoing it. It was a popular candidate for 2gating in PvP from my experience so vetoing it killed two birds with one stone for me.
All of the new maps are terrible, I actually vastly preferred last season's map pool. Klontas Mire is pretty dumb but at least all-ins work well on it so I kept that one. Derelict is (as I said above) complete garbage, and that lava map is boring. What ever happened to having tournament maps? I would love to have some of those Proleague maps.
I've been finding in HOTS that all of my vetoes are dictated by PvZ. The other matchups seem secondary when choosing maps.
On May 12 2013 01:03 Bahajinbo wrote: Usually I'm pretty strong in PvZ, but this season is just a mess.
1.) What do you even do on Derelict Watcher? In a macro game, I was never able to secure a 4th base and zerg takes the whole map. Pure skytoss? 2 base timings?
2.) How do you observe these nasty instant tech-switches? Last game I played against a zerg and I was pretty sure he will go fast 3-3 Ultras. Then suddenly 30 mutas appear and kill my eco. How the hell should I know?
I hate the new maps so much... It's the worst map pool for seasons.
Yeah Derelict Watcher versus Zerg is pretty stupid (Against Terran it isn't so bad. Protoss is kinda spread out on it but the map is totally playable if you split your army properly for drops). It is so open and huge that it is practically impossible to pressure or punish Zerg without taking a huge risk. The third is easy but every base after that is impossible unless the Zerg is ridiculously passive. I've lost countless games against Zergs that I have been massively ahead of simply because I could not keep my economy going while they took half the map. After not winning a single macro game against Zerg on it I just did all-ins on it for a bit before finally vetoing it. It was a popular candidate for 2gating in PvP from my experience so vetoing it killed two birds with one stone for me.
All of the new maps are terrible, I actually vastly preferred last season's map pool. Klontas Mire is pretty dumb but at least all-ins work well on it so I kept that one. Derelict is (as I said above) complete garbage, and that lava map is boring. What ever happened to having tournament maps? I would love to have some of those Proleague maps.
I've been finding in HOTS that all of my vetoes are dictated by PvZ. The other matchups seem secondary when choosing maps.
I find Derelict Watcher quite playable. Any moment the zerg decides it's a good idea to go beyond 4 bases I can do considerable damage with constant zealot aggression while trying to keep a scout of his tech switches with hallucinations, possible Phoenix and Observers.
I don't think the 4th base is too hard to hold. Once you get up your 4th base you need to be aware of his army positioning and add a couple of cannons to protect that and your third (I like to get up a very early 3rd, often at around 8 minutes, so I have two cannons at my 3rd already up).
I do think the current map pool is quite good, definetely a lot better than it was last season. I currently have Neo Planet S, Klontas Mire and Star Station vetoed. I haven't played a lot of ranked games so far (only 20 or so), but am currently in Masters on EU and my win percentages on the maps are as follows: Akilon Wastes 67% Bel'Shir Vestige 100% Derelict Watcher 100% Whirlwind 75% Zerus Prime 0%
Obviously, a conclusion to draw here would be that I find Zerus Prime difficult, which is indeed true, but it also has to do with the fact that I haven't played almost any games on the map (only under 5) and have not yet gotten a hang of the map layout.
On May 12 2013 01:03 Bahajinbo wrote: Usually I'm pretty strong in PvZ, but this season is just a mess.
1.) What do you even do on Derelict Watcher? In a macro game, I was never able to secure a 4th base and zerg takes the whole map. Pure skytoss? 2 base timings?
2.) How do you observe these nasty instant tech-switches? Last game I played against a zerg and I was pretty sure he will go fast 3-3 Ultras. Then suddenly 30 mutas appear and kill my eco. How the hell should I know?
I hate the new maps so much... It's the worst map pool for seasons.
Yeah Derelict Watcher versus Zerg is pretty stupid (Against Terran it isn't so bad. Protoss is kinda spread out on it but the map is totally playable if you split your army properly for drops). It is so open and huge that it is practically impossible to pressure or punish Zerg without taking a huge risk. The third is easy but every base after that is impossible unless the Zerg is ridiculously passive. I've lost countless games against Zergs that I have been massively ahead of simply because I could not keep my economy going while they took half the map. After not winning a single macro game against Zerg on it I just did all-ins on it for a bit before finally vetoing it. It was a popular candidate for 2gating in PvP from my experience so vetoing it killed two birds with one stone for me.
All of the new maps are terrible, I actually vastly preferred last season's map pool. Klontas Mire is pretty dumb but at least all-ins work well on it so I kept that one. Derelict is (as I said above) complete garbage, and that lava map is boring. What ever happened to having tournament maps? I would love to have some of those Proleague maps.
I've been finding in HOTS that all of my vetoes are dictated by PvZ. The other matchups seem secondary when choosing maps.
I find Derelict Watcher quite playable. Any moment the zerg decides it's a good idea to go beyond 4 bases I can do considerable damage with constant zealot aggression while trying to keep a scout of his tech switches with hallucinations, possible Phoenix and Observers.
I don't think the 4th base is too hard to hold. Once you get up your 4th base you need to be aware of his army positioning and add a couple of cannons to protect that and your third (I like to get up a very early 3rd, often at around 8 minutes, so I have two cannons at my 3rd already up).
I do think the current map pool is quite good, definetely a lot better than it was last season. I currently have Neo Planet S, Klontas Mire and Star Station vetoed. I haven't played a lot of ranked games so far (only 20 or so), but am currently in Masters on EU and my win percentages on the maps are as follows: Akilon Wastes 67% Bel'Shir Vestige 100% Derelict Watcher 100% Whirlwind 75% Zerus Prime 0%
Obviously, a conclusion to draw here would be that I find Zerus Prime difficult, which is indeed true, but it also has to do with the fact that I haven't played almost any games on the map (only under 5) and have not yet gotten a hang of the map layout.
Huh... I find Zerus to be one of the best maps for protoss to be on the pool. In PvZ you can easily nexus first into gateway and be totally safe, and the base layout makes defending drops in PvT very doable.
On May 12 2013 23:20 theBALLS wrote: how do you deal with 2 base swarm host rushes?
Get robo bay asap, get warp prism, before they arrive at your base be active on the map, scout for nyduses, dont just let them sit down in front of your base. Do zealot harass with warp prism, try to deny 3rd, in the main try to kill tech structures like nydus network /infestation pit, be very careful not to lose warp prism, queens and spores will be the only anti air, defend with your colossus army, eventually when you have enough breakout and kill his units.
Personally I get double robo, but I'm not sure if that's really the best way to go... corruptor and muta switches can be hard to deal with when youre too colossus heavy.
Yeah I feel like Zerus is the only decent new map. Spawn positions should be limited though imo, top to top bottom to bottom walking distance gets silly after a bit, maybe too easy for PvZ.
On May 12 2013 13:54 Hattori_Hanzo wrote: if immortals/colossi are at the back, assuming zealot/archon as the meat shield of choice, its unlikely to even be the target of FG as mass charglots would be a much bigger threat to the ultra/ling/infestor than 4-6 immortals at the back and certainly out of range to the infestors at the back of the ultra/ling army. Ultras have an incredibly large battlefield footprint.
Well the situation I was thinking of is when the immortals for whatever reason are at the front, cause im losing the battle or he flanked or whatever. If the immortals are in the back then its all good anyways.
You bring up an interesting point, phoniex can be used the same as prisms, doing pick-drop micro with lift. I remember seeing it being used back in WoL beta. I think it was Grubby in '11?
I did that just yesterday lifted three immortals that were surrounded by zerglings, he left the game right after. Unlike warp prism thats useless when youre losing the fight though
imho, you lose less dps doing pick-drop micro, I've noticed about a 1 second lag between a move command and when an immortal beings firing.
Kiting with six immortals: select them, shoot, move, shoot, move. Kiting with six immortals in warp prism: Absolutely unrealistic and warp prisms dont drop instantly so you could probably only not lose dps if you only have one immortal in one warp prism. I would rather use my apm to micro 6 immortals than 1 or 2. Also with a warp prism if im too slow and it fires before I tell it what to target then it might shoot a zergling or the wrong ultra.
Also, I have almost never seen a pro-P, micro focus fire with zealot/archon these days.
Well I certainly know that's not what I'm doing but I am busy enough microing the immortals, stalkers and colossi (and HTs). And while I dont focus fire with zealot archon, I do kite with them.
I do agree better scouting for a BO/unit composition win is much easier than battlefront micro, any day of the week
On May 12 2013 01:03 Bahajinbo wrote: Usually I'm pretty strong in PvZ, but this season is just a mess.
1.) What do you even do on Derelict Watcher? In a macro game, I was never able to secure a 4th base and zerg takes the whole map. Pure skytoss? 2 base timings?
2.) How do you observe these nasty instant tech-switches? Last game I played against a zerg and I was pretty sure he will go fast 3-3 Ultras. Then suddenly 30 mutas appear and kill my eco. How the hell should I know?
I hate the new maps so much... It's the worst map pool for seasons.
Yeah Derelict Watcher versus Zerg is pretty stupid (Against Terran it isn't so bad. Protoss is kinda spread out on it but the map is totally playable if you split your army properly for drops). It is so open and huge that it is practically impossible to pressure or punish Zerg without taking a huge risk. The third is easy but every base after that is impossible unless the Zerg is ridiculously passive. I've lost countless games against Zergs that I have been massively ahead of simply because I could not keep my economy going while they took half the map. After not winning a single macro game against Zerg on it I just did all-ins on it for a bit before finally vetoing it. It was a popular candidate for 2gating in PvP from my experience so vetoing it killed two birds with one stone for me.
All of the new maps are terrible, I actually vastly preferred last season's map pool. Klontas Mire is pretty dumb but at least all-ins work well on it so I kept that one. Derelict is (as I said above) complete garbage, and that lava map is boring. What ever happened to having tournament maps? I would love to have some of those Proleague maps.
I've been finding in HOTS that all of my vetoes are dictated by PvZ. The other matchups seem secondary when choosing maps.
I find Derelict Watcher quite playable. Any moment the zerg decides it's a good idea to go beyond 4 bases I can do considerable damage with constant zealot aggression while trying to keep a scout of his tech switches with hallucinations, possible Phoenix and Observers.
I don't think the 4th base is too hard to hold. Once you get up your 4th base you need to be aware of his army positioning and add a couple of cannons to protect that and your third (I like to get up a very early 3rd, often at around 8 minutes, so I have two cannons at my 3rd already up).
I do think the current map pool is quite good, definetely a lot better than it was last season. I currently have Neo Planet S, Klontas Mire and Star Station vetoed. I haven't played a lot of ranked games so far (only 20 or so), but am currently in Masters on EU and my win percentages on the maps are as follows: Akilon Wastes 67% Bel'Shir Vestige 100% Derelict Watcher 100% Whirlwind 75% Zerus Prime 0%
Obviously, a conclusion to draw here would be that I find Zerus Prime difficult, which is indeed true, but it also has to do with the fact that I haven't played almost any games on the map (only under 5) and have not yet gotten a hang of the map layout.
Huh... I find Zerus to be one of the best maps for protoss to be on the pool. In PvZ you can easily nexus first into gateway and be totally safe, and the base layout makes defending drops in PvT very doable.
After taking a longer look at Zerus Prime, trying to figure out the map layout and then play a game on it, I too find this map extremely good for Protoss, although it's not a map I adore.
The map in PvZ is unbelievably good for Warp Prism, but much less so for Zealot runbys. The narrow middle makes it difficult to make effective Zealot runbys (I think I pulled off only a single successful one out of 4 or 5 in a 30 minute game, which only worked because he decided to attack my 6th and 7th base and I managed to get those Zealots behind his army), but Warp Prism in this map is excellent. It is really easy to snipe bases from the Zerg with a Warp Prism whenever he is even slightly out of position.
I am still kind of torn on whether I like the flow of bases on this map. On one hand it's nice, but the back door to the natural is kind of making me think 'I am not so sure'. It's one of the maps which on paper look excellent and are nice to play on, but there's just something in it that makes me not like it so much.
To give you an idea of maps I liked a lot; my favourite ones are probably Cloud Kingdom and Bel'shir Vestige. I liked Ohana quite a lot too, but I think Bel'shir Vestige is kind of a better version of Ohana, a much less turtly map. I also like Akilon Wastes vs Zerg, but very much hate it against Terran beyond 2 bases, which might have to do with the fact that I'm awful against drop play.
All things considered, Zerus Prime is definetely one of the maps where Protoss can shine through heavy Warp Prism play, but I think to even have a chance on this map, you need to make that harass happen and deny the Zerg base after base.
Edit: How do you wall off on Zerus Prime, btw? I always end up with some funky walls due to the gap being so... odd.
I just do one pylon + forge or gateway. (and then one pylon near the rocks to spot if theyre being taken down)
I feel like its good for protoss, at least vs Zerg because 3rd, 4th and even 5th are all pretty easy to defend (in horizontal and cross spawns at least) , and for being a 4 player map there's incredibly little ground to walk on and lots of chokes, and in horizontal spawns it takes like 5 seconds to walk from your 4th to your opponents 4th lol.
On May 12 2013 01:03 Bahajinbo wrote: Usually I'm pretty strong in PvZ, but this season is just a mess.
1.) What do you even do on Derelict Watcher? In a macro game, I was never able to secure a 4th base and zerg takes the whole map. Pure skytoss? 2 base timings?
2.) How do you observe these nasty instant tech-switches? Last game I played against a zerg and I was pretty sure he will go fast 3-3 Ultras. Then suddenly 30 mutas appear and kill my eco. How the hell should I know?
I hate the new maps so much... It's the worst map pool for seasons.
Yeah Derelict Watcher versus Zerg is pretty stupid (Against Terran it isn't so bad. Protoss is kinda spread out on it but the map is totally playable if you split your army properly for drops). It is so open and huge that it is practically impossible to pressure or punish Zerg without taking a huge risk. The third is easy but every base after that is impossible unless the Zerg is ridiculously passive. I've lost countless games against Zergs that I have been massively ahead of simply because I could not keep my economy going while they took half the map. After not winning a single macro game against Zerg on it I just did all-ins on it for a bit before finally vetoing it. It was a popular candidate for 2gating in PvP from my experience so vetoing it killed two birds with one stone for me.
All of the new maps are terrible, I actually vastly preferred last season's map pool. Klontas Mire is pretty dumb but at least all-ins work well on it so I kept that one. Derelict is (as I said above) complete garbage, and that lava map is boring. What ever happened to having tournament maps? I would love to have some of those Proleague maps.
I've been finding in HOTS that all of my vetoes are dictated by PvZ. The other matchups seem secondary when choosing maps.
I find Derelict Watcher quite playable. Any moment the zerg decides it's a good idea to go beyond 4 bases I can do considerable damage with constant zealot aggression while trying to keep a scout of his tech switches with hallucinations, possible Phoenix and Observers.
I don't think the 4th base is too hard to hold. Once you get up your 4th base you need to be aware of his army positioning and add a couple of cannons to protect that and your third (I like to get up a very early 3rd, often at around 8 minutes, so I have two cannons at my 3rd already up).
I do think the current map pool is quite good, definetely a lot better than it was last season. I currently have Neo Planet S, Klontas Mire and Star Station vetoed. I haven't played a lot of ranked games so far (only 20 or so), but am currently in Masters on EU and my win percentages on the maps are as follows: Akilon Wastes 67% Bel'Shir Vestige 100% Derelict Watcher 100% Whirlwind 75% Zerus Prime 0%
Obviously, a conclusion to draw here would be that I find Zerus Prime difficult, which is indeed true, but it also has to do with the fact that I haven't played almost any games on the map (only under 5) and have not yet gotten a hang of the map layout.
Huh... I find Zerus to be one of the best maps for protoss to be on the pool. In PvZ you can easily nexus first into gateway and be totally safe, and the base layout makes defending drops in PvT very doable.
Yeah, it is good for Protoss. I just find it really dull. It is so easy to turtle on and that is not how I like to play. I like pressure-based styles more, but they seem to be weaker on it. I win on it a lot, it just isn't a map I like too much. I would have rather they redid Newkirk so it was less easy to split and kept that. I actually kinda liked that map. White-Ra style PvZ was so good on it and a lot of fun.
I actually like Klontas Mire the most out of all the new maps. I've yet to have a macro PvZ on it but to me that is a good thing. My winrate on it is over 70%. It feels Protoss-favoured in PvZ, which is a nice change from all the other maps.
I don't know why, maybe Klontas just fits my style better than Derelict Watcher. I just do not enjoy playing on Derelict Watcher at all.
On May 13 2013 01:11 7mk wrote: (in horizontal and cross spawns at least)
You can't spawn vertical. It is like Shakuras Plateau.
Which makes me wonder why they prevent that yet allow horizontal positions on Star Station.
Hey guys, I noticed you take about 1:30 to get 50 energy on a msc. I'm not sure if there would be any practical use for this, but if you cast photon overcharge as soon as you get 100 energy, take down your own msc, and chrono boost a new msc out, you can cast a second photon overcharge in about 2 minutes instead of 3.
Do you think this could turn out to be useful in any situation? Just a thought.
On May 13 2013 05:13 vhapter wrote: Hey guys, I noticed you take about 1:30 to get 50 energy on a msc. I'm not sure if there would be any practical use for this, but if you cast photon overcharge as soon as you get 100 energy, take down your own msc, and chrono boost a new msc out, you can cast a second photon overcharge in about 2 minutes instead of 3.
Do you think this could turn out to be useful in any situation? Just a thought.
I've done it before. Suicide a 0 energy MSC and just make a new one. It's definitely a tactic to keep in mind when you think you will need MSC energy asap. If the MSC is low on health, that's definitely a contributing factor too, since it doesn't have much shields to recharge.
Can anyone help me with Stargate Phoenix openings? Do you guys make nothing but Stalkers and get Blink straight away? And how do you guys deal with mass Void Rays in the late game PvP? In WoL I just vortexed now I'm clueless.
I'm mid diamond, and I've been having a hell of a time vs. Hellbat/Tank/Viking/Medivac. My question is: What is the ideal composition vs this? I've been toying with the idea of Chargelot/Stalker/Oracle but wanted to get someone's input on this who has been successfully countering this comp.
I also have a second question. How do you change your method of harassment throughout a game. I typically face opponents who are going blind mineral line turret/spore/cannon. In this case, I think oracle/phnx harass is out. Should I be using zealot drops in the main & nat while doing my main attack?
On May 13 2013 10:10 MeLo wrote: Can anyone help me with Stargate Phoenix openings? Do you guys make nothing but Stalkers and get Blink straight away? And how do you guys deal with mass Void Rays in the late game PvP? In WoL I just vortexed now I'm clueless.
I think the best approach is to go twilight style. Chargelot archon push his natural or something. If he builds a wall and plays very defensively, which is very common vs chargelot, don't go all in and suicide your stuff - grab a third yourself instead. Delaying his third is pretty good. Once the void ray count gets really high, you kind of have to get storm to kill void rays. Storm is actually surprisingly effective because even if he tries to split his void rays, the only way he will get a truly safe split vs storm is if he simply splits every single one of them and holds position, waiting for you to attack. But if we assume perfect positioning for him, you are likely to lose.
On May 13 2013 11:33 Phenro wrote: I'm mid diamond, and I've been having a hell of a time vs. Hellbat/Tank/Viking/Medivac. My question is: What is the ideal composition vs this? I've been toying with the idea of Chargelot/Stalker/Oracle but wanted to get someone's input on this who has been successfully countering this comp.
I also have a second question. How do you change your method of harassment throughout a game. I typically face opponents who are going blind mineral line turret/spore/cannon. In this case, I think oracle/phnx harass is out. Should I be using zealot drops in the main & nat while doing my main attack?
I could be wrong, but I just try to get a ton of immortals, colossi, storm, and archon + stalker. I think rvsp said he goes up to 3 robos as soon as he gets the chance. I tried to do the same and it worked out just fine. You need some anti air to deal with vikings, and storm helps. But I guess in the end you need to get powerful robo units yourself to keep up with a late game mech composition. Even if you don't get armor upgrades, I think you should definitely get 3 attack for colossi damage. It seems to me like you need to deal tons of aoe damage to the hellbats asap in order to clear them up and go for the tanks.
will answer a few of these :D - GM Brotoss giving some feedback
On May 13 2013 11:33 Phenro wrote: I'm mid diamond, and I've been having a hell of a time vs. Hellbat/Tank/Viking/Medivac. My question is: What is the ideal composition vs this? I've been toying with the idea of Chargelot/Stalker/Oracle but wanted to get someone's input on this who has been successfully countering this comp.
I also have a second question. How do you change your method of harassment throughout a game. I typically face opponents who are going blind mineral line turret/spore/cannon. In this case, I think oracle/phnx harass is out. Should I be using zealot drops in the main & nat while doing my main attack?
- A robo archon ground composition does very well versus this. Well upgraded immortal stalker archon can cope with this army efficiently. Try to attack tanks while they're not in siege mode preferably, otherwise attacks will be much more difficult to win.
- I think this is too vague of a question to answer that well. It's very situation dependent. Zealot drops, Phx harass and oracle are all viable even with static defense in place. Whether or not you can successfully implement these as harassment is going to depend on your own execution & position in the game.
On May 12 2013 23:20 theBALLS wrote: how do you deal with 2 base swarm host rushes?
2 base swarmhost rushes can be tricky to defend. The two primary concepts to defending these all-ins are (1) Buying time and (2) Making Colossus. Doing either/both of these things can be really difficult depending on what kind of opener you perform. Having a robotics facility already finished/near complete is quite essential to defending these timings. If you scout a 2b swarmhost timing some things you can do to help prepare are: (1) Quickly get a colossus bay if you don't already have one. (2) IF Versus Nydus version i) Get full vision of your base ii) Get a zealot patrolling outside your base for nydus worms. (3) Add cannons and an appropriate number of sentrys. forcefield out swarmlings to reduce the amount of dmg they do. (4) Get a 2nd robotics facility going asap. (5) Setup a backdoor warp-in either by warp prism or proxy pylon. Try to do damage with zealot runbys. (6) When you get a critical mass of colossus, make sure your observer doesn't die when pushing out. Try to hit a timing with 8+ colossus and a large supply army to back it up.
EPT
lifted three immortals that were surrounded by zerglings, he left the game right after.
