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On May 15 2013 03:17 ThyLastPenguin wrote: Is it cool if I give my general PvP tactic and people post critique on it? Well I sure hope it is. :3 (DIAMOND LEAGUE) So, I start with a 3 stalker rush -> 3gate + Robo + Blink. I make continuous stalkers outta the gates if I have the money, until I get WG done. Then I'll start warping in a few stalkers until blink is done. At around this time I get a third. I don't really try and do damage as such with blink stalkers, more keep them scared on 2 bases whilst I tech into a Chargelot/Archon army, taking a much faster third than my opponent. I then just sorta use this comp to out-expand my opponent and against strong lategame armies I generally win by warping in like 40 zealots on the back of my 200/200 army, as I mostly have like 2 more bases than my opponent.
Right now I'm currently getting screwed by people who wreck my stalker ball and then just 2 base me whilst I'm getting a third, and this only happens when people go robo -> colossus whilst my stalkers are attacking. Ofc, Immos > the stalkers and Collo > Chargelots so I generally just lose right there.
TLDR;
3gate Blink pressure -> Z/archon army - out expanding opponent to win due to economy.
Is this viable? Or am I trying to use a strat that's gonna start pathetically failing when I hit masters?
I haven't seen any guides of this so I'm generally winging in - if there is a guide a link would be much appreciated. Thanks <3
Not sure I follow your build entirely as to when you get your natural. Generally in PvP, if you want to play a map control-centric(/fast 3rd) style - you need a significant econ advantage either obtained by a faster expo or by killing a good number of your opponents probes. If your build allows you to get this advantage and take a 3rd while not taking dmg to counter harass; then you should be able to survive mid/late game. The biggest issue you'll run into in mid/late game is as you said' fighting a much stronger late game army'. Zealot/archon is much weaker then any colossus heavy army. You'll have to try and cope with this somehow - either by multi-prong, air units, heavy colo production or some combination of these things.
Personally, I wouldn't open 1 base robo/blink and try this style. I think your economy will be too low in too many situations; you will likely die to 1b or 2b timings. Instead, maybe try a faster expand into something similar. Sorry, I don't recall any guides off hand of this style though =(
How many cannons / stalkers / whatever do you recommend to hold off hellbat drops in early & midgame? I usually don't have a lot of problems against mech, but the hellbat drops are a pain. They always kill dozens of probes and I don't know how to deal with it... TT
On May 15 2013 05:57 Bahajinbo wrote: How many cannons / stalkers / whatever do you recommend to hold off hellbat drops in early & midgame? I usually don't have a lot of problems against mech, but the hellbat drops are a pain. They always kill dozens of probes and I don't know how to deal with it... TT
I go 3 per mineral line usually. Sometimes 2 but they'll just fly over them. You also need to turtle (don't be aggressive except maybe with stargate units) and always have all your units in your mineral line to deter the drops
PvT is a major pita with hots and I don't like to turtle but it's the only thing to do to beat hellbat drops
The worst part about the drops is the fact they exist. Even if they don't go for it, you still have to take precautions every PvT in order to deal with the potential hellbat drops.
On May 15 2013 03:17 ThyLastPenguin wrote: Is it cool if I give my general PvP tactic and people post critique on it? Well I sure hope it is. :3 (DIAMOND LEAGUE) So, I start with a 3 stalker rush -> 3gate + Robo + Blink. I make continuous stalkers outta the gates if I have the money, until I get WG done. Then I'll start warping in a few stalkers until blink is done. At around this time I get a third. I don't really try and do damage as such with blink stalkers, more keep them scared on 2 bases whilst I tech into a Chargelot/Archon army, taking a much faster third than my opponent. I then just sorta use this comp to out-expand my opponent and against strong lategame armies I generally win by warping in like 40 zealots on the back of my 200/200 army, as I mostly have like 2 more bases than my opponent.
Right now I'm currently getting screwed by people who wreck my stalker ball and then just 2 base me whilst I'm getting a third, and this only happens when people go robo -> colossus whilst my stalkers are attacking. Ofc, Immos > the stalkers and Collo > Chargelots so I generally just lose right there.
TLDR;
3gate Blink pressure -> Z/archon army - out expanding opponent to win due to economy.
Is this viable? Or am I trying to use a strat that's gonna start pathetically failing when I hit masters?
I haven't seen any guides of this so I'm generally winging in - if there is a guide a link would be much appreciated. Thanks <3
Not sure I follow your build entirely as to when you get your natural. Generally in PvP, if you want to play a map control-centric(/fast 3rd) style - you need a significant econ advantage either obtained by a faster expo or by killing a good number of your opponents probes. If your build allows you to get this advantage and take a 3rd while not taking dmg to counter harass; then you should be able to survive mid/late game. The biggest issue you'll run into in mid/late game is as you said' fighting a much stronger late game army'. Zealot/archon is much weaker then any colossus heavy army. You'll have to try and cope with this somehow - either by multi-prong, air units, heavy colo production or some combination of these things.
Personally, I wouldn't open 1 base robo/blink and try this style. I think your economy will be too low in too many situations; you will likely die to 1b or 2b timings. Instead, maybe try a faster expand into something similar. Sorry, I don't recall any guides off hand of this style though =(
So would you say if I get an early expansion and then go into blink -> chargelot archon it could work? I really like blink stalkers and I like Z/archon armies. XD
Hi fellow protosses. I need some help vs zerg, as i am quite blind in the matchup these days. I am in diamond league on EU, and it pretty much feels like its zerg that are holding me in dia. Was my best MU by far in WOL, so quite so frustrating Mostly because of mutalisks, and zerg logic i dont really understand. Atm i think i have about 15-20% winrate vs mutalisk play. In most of the cases i just straight up lose, and if i manage to hold and secure a third base, i eventually lose to the tech that hardcounters all my units. For instance, he delay me so much that when i HAVE to attack, he will eventually kill my stalker, archon, HTs, phoenix with ultra, ling and the rest of his mutas. If i win the first fight, he will clean me up in the end with a sick bank. Im also finding it hard to harass. both since i need to dump minerals in cannons at home, and veeery hard to not get spotted with a WP or probe So i could really need some inputs on what to do
I have a couple of openings i tend to do wich is the following (always FFE):
-6min SG phoenixes. I move out with about 5. use them to scout, kill queens and overlords and whatever i can. Followed up by 3 more gates, robo, and a third
-+1 4gate harass with adding SG and robo behind it. also build an early sentry to scout for tech
So scenarios im often facing: When showing my phoenix and i still scout a spire, in half of the scenarios he is often just massing mutas anyway. This is so hard to scout, since he is often hiding them till he have 20+ and then just rape me I normally stop phoenix production after the first 5 unless i actually notice the mutas If i notice them, i dont really know what to do after i have dealt with them. Since i have to go double stargate and also adds phoenix range, i dont feel i can do much more with them afterwards. And it also delays everything else pretty hard. Eventually i lose to hydra or corruptors.
If i go +1 4g harass, i normally deal quite some damage. But since i have so delayed tech i often straight out lose because of that. u need aloooot of stalkers to beat the mutas, and phoenixes dont do much until u have a pretty good count. And going double SG feels like a waste of resources since he is moving straight to my base and i wont have any units to deal with them in time
All in all i feel the overall unit composition u need is Phoenix, archon, storm, and stalkers. But by the time i have that, i am so delayed with everything that he has all the map and can tech switch at any time with a sick bank and 70 larva waiting to be used. I get delayed by adding cannons, have to do extreme tech choices to deal with the mutas asap. I feel u need quite a few cannons. Like 15 or so to even stand a chance vs his mutas that WILL counter attack when u move out. A 4th feels like a impossible scenario for me vs mutas.
So that was quite a lot of text. hehe. Any good tips are welcome I am facing mutas so often now, and it takes me to this dark place where i really wanna quit SC because of them etc etc since i almost lose every time. Even if i feel i do all the right things, i lose in the end
On May 15 2013 04:55 SteveNick wrote: I have a question in regards to mitigating widow mine damage. This isn't regarding scouting them or countering the drops.
Let's say a widow mine has been dropped in my mineral line and is already almost burrowed, I haven't moved my probes as of yet. I'm thinking that the best thing to do here is to simply leave my probes exactly where they are and take whatever losses come. If I try to do some type of last second pull, my probes will very likely clump up and I will take mass game ending damage, where if I just let them auto mine and let whatever happens happen, I will probably only lose a few. I haven't really found a quick and easy way to spread probes effectively at the last second without creating a clump for a widow mine hit.
Is the general consensus to just leave your probes as is if you can't completely pull them before the widow mine burrows?
The same skills for bio splits vs. banes apply here, as a single probe kill for the widow mine is a very bad trade for the Terran.
On May 15 2013 00:18 Mezox wrote: Is it safe/recommended to send your first gateway units to the terran base? (for instance if I make zealot/stalker when my 13 gate finishes)
the most solid advice i could give you is to make sure you don't send your zealot to your opponents base when you're worried about getting ebay blocked at your natural. if your zealot is across the map you won't have the dps to kill the ebay. if you do send out the first couple gateway units to punish a 1 rax fe that has the bunker still making i would recommend getting it earlier and chronoing it out but don't rely on it doing damage.
On May 15 2013 04:55 SteveNick wrote: I have a question in regards to mitigating widow mine damage. This isn't regarding scouting them or countering the drops.
Let's say a widow mine has been dropped in my mineral line and is already almost burrowed, I haven't moved my probes as of yet. I'm thinking that the best thing to do here is to simply leave my probes exactly where they are and take whatever losses come. If I try to do some type of last second pull, my probes will very likely clump up and I will take mass game ending damage, where if I just let them auto mine and let whatever happens happen, I will probably only lose a few. I haven't really found a quick and easy way to spread probes effectively at the last second without creating a clump for a widow mine hit.
Is the general consensus to just leave your probes as is if you can't completely pull them before the widow mine burrows?
The same skills for bio splits vs. banes apply here, as a single probe kill for the widow mine is a very bad trade for the Terran.
This is the Protoss Help thread, not the balance thread. Please only post when you have something constructive to say, thank you.
On May 15 2013 05:40 SteveNick wrote: Do you use this tactic completely in lieu of pulling your probes away, or only if you're caught off guard and don't have time to?
If you have the time to then yeah always try to pull them away
On May 15 2013 08:58 hersimp wrote: Hi fellow protosses. I need some help vs zerg, as i am quite blind in the matchup these days. I am in diamond league on EU, and it pretty much feels like its zerg that are holding me in dia. Was my best MU by far in WOL, so quite so frustrating Mostly because of mutalisks, and zerg logic i dont really understand. Atm i think i have about 15-20% winrate vs mutalisk play. In most of the cases i just straight up lose, and if i manage to hold and secure a third base, i eventually lose to the tech that hardcounters all my units. For instance, he delay me so much that when i HAVE to attack, he will eventually kill my stalker, archon, HTs, phoenix with ultra, ling and the rest of his mutas. If i win the first fight, he will clean me up in the end with a sick bank. Im also finding it hard to harass. both since i need to dump minerals in cannons at home, and veeery hard to not get spotted with a WP or probe So i could really need some inputs on what to do
I have a couple of openings i tend to do wich is the following (always FFE):
-6min SG phoenixes. I move out with about 5. use them to scout, kill queens and overlords and whatever i can. Followed up by 3 more gates, robo, and a third
-+1 4gate harass with adding SG and robo behind it. also build an early sentry to scout for tech
So scenarios im often facing: When showing my phoenix and i still scout a spire, in half of the scenarios he is often just massing mutas anyway. This is so hard to scout, since he is often hiding them till he have 20+ and then just rape me I normally stop phoenix production after the first 5 unless i actually notice the mutas If i notice them, i dont really know what to do after i have dealt with them. Since i have to go double stargate and also adds phoenix range, i dont feel i can do much more with them afterwards. And it also delays everything else pretty hard. Eventually i lose to hydra or corruptors.
If i go +1 4g harass, i normally deal quite some damage. But since i have so delayed tech i often straight out lose because of that. u need aloooot of stalkers to beat the mutas, and phoenixes dont do much until u have a pretty good count. And going double SG feels like a waste of resources since he is moving straight to my base and i wont have any units to deal with them in time
All in all i feel the overall unit composition u need is Phoenix, archon, storm, and stalkers. But by the time i have that, i am so delayed with everything that he has all the map and can tech switch at any time with a sick bank and 70 larva waiting to be used. I get delayed by adding cannons, have to do extreme tech choices to deal with the mutas asap. I feel u need quite a few cannons. Like 15 or so to even stand a chance vs his mutas that WILL counter attack when u move out. A 4th feels like a impossible scenario for me vs mutas.
So that was quite a lot of text. hehe. Any good tips are welcome I am facing mutas so often now, and it takes me to this dark place where i really wanna quit SC because of them etc etc since i almost lose every time. Even if i feel i do all the right things, i lose in the end
You definitely dont need 15 cannons and mass stalkers and phoenixes with range just to defend mutas, that sounds like overkill. when I scout muta / suspect hes going muta when seeing spire I (ideally) position my stalkers in a good defensive position at key spots and build like 2-3 cannons, not more than that for a while, cannons are only stalling for your units to get there anyways, and go to double or triple stargate. I often dont even add stalkers anymore, phoenixes are key to dealing with them so if im lacking gas i will save that up for those. Also dont forget for defense photon overcharge is extremely good against mutas (unfortunately they kill the MSC very fast if its unprotected). I feel like if you are prepared for the first attacks without taking major eco damage then youre in a good position to overwhelm them with phoenixes eventually, which do greatly outrange the mutas - and its ok to sit on 3 base for a bit. If I didnt prepare for the first wave of mutas properly and they kill to many probes / kill the pylons at the stargates or something (blink helps a lot too) then I will be too crippled to move out fast enough, they will out expand me and kill me with ultras or something. Also if you want a different style to deal with mutas check out sOs' games today vs Losira/KangHo. He went for 1 gate expo -> 4gate stargate as we all know it, but then went for dts, then for chargelot archon(dt-archons so to say), 3 archons and just a few stalkers alone can take on a lot of mutas when you have the zealots taking care of the ground units, in his macro game he had chargelot archon with triple stargate, builds mass voidrays unless mutas come and in that case triple stargate is just fine as well.
Oh and stay aware of his muta numbers (with hallus for example) you dont wanna build more phoenix than you need to. However those that stay alive are far frome useless, you can get soooooo many drone kills with them just ignoring spore crawlers and lifting a shitload of drones up at once, and can of course lift a lot of fighting units too. Thats the thing if you do finally deal with mutas and kill them but have too many phoenixes left you can pay back the damage hes done in eco by damaging his - the more bases he has (which is in itself of course bad for you) the less likely is it that his drones are defended well at all of them
On May 15 2013 08:58 hersimp wrote: Hi fellow protosses. I need some help vs zerg, as i am quite blind in the matchup these days. I am in diamond league on EU, and it pretty much feels like its zerg that are holding me in dia. Was my best MU by far in WOL, so quite so frustrating Mostly because of mutalisks, and zerg logic i dont really understand. Atm i think i have about 15-20% winrate vs mutalisk play. In most of the cases i just straight up lose, and if i manage to hold and secure a third base, i eventually lose to the tech that hardcounters all my units. For instance, he delay me so much that when i HAVE to attack, he will eventually kill my stalker, archon, HTs, phoenix with ultra, ling and the rest of his mutas. If i win the first fight, he will clean me up in the end with a sick bank. Im also finding it hard to harass. both since i need to dump minerals in cannons at home, and veeery hard to not get spotted with a WP or probe So i could really need some inputs on what to do
I have a couple of openings i tend to do wich is the following (always FFE):
-6min SG phoenixes. I move out with about 5. use them to scout, kill queens and overlords and whatever i can. Followed up by 3 more gates, robo, and a third
-+1 4gate harass with adding SG and robo behind it. also build an early sentry to scout for tech
So scenarios im often facing: When showing my phoenix and i still scout a spire, in half of the scenarios he is often just massing mutas anyway. This is so hard to scout, since he is often hiding them till he have 20+ and then just rape me I normally stop phoenix production after the first 5 unless i actually notice the mutas If i notice them, i dont really know what to do after i have dealt with them. Since i have to go double stargate and also adds phoenix range, i dont feel i can do much more with them afterwards. And it also delays everything else pretty hard. Eventually i lose to hydra or corruptors.
If i go +1 4g harass, i normally deal quite some damage. But since i have so delayed tech i often straight out lose because of that. u need aloooot of stalkers to beat the mutas, and phoenixes dont do much until u have a pretty good count. And going double SG feels like a waste of resources since he is moving straight to my base and i wont have any units to deal with them in time
All in all i feel the overall unit composition u need is Phoenix, archon, storm, and stalkers. But by the time i have that, i am so delayed with everything that he has all the map and can tech switch at any time with a sick bank and 70 larva waiting to be used. I get delayed by adding cannons, have to do extreme tech choices to deal with the mutas asap. I feel u need quite a few cannons. Like 15 or so to even stand a chance vs his mutas that WILL counter attack when u move out. A 4th feels like a impossible scenario for me vs mutas.
So that was quite a lot of text. hehe. Any good tips are welcome I am facing mutas so often now, and it takes me to this dark place where i really wanna quit SC because of them etc etc since i almost lose every time. Even if i feel i do all the right things, i lose in the end
If it helps, here is what I do, I have come across this scenario you mention, with the muta. Im in Diamond also, so might help?
- I am constantly scouting to see if he is going spire, either with my initial phoenix, or hallucinated ones. - Does he have all 6 gases (if yes, almost guarantee muta, even if you dont see the spire), react by dropping second SG + Phoenix Range, sometimes a 3rd SG. Defend mutas initially/harrass them, while adding more phoenix if he is staying muta. (I'm taking a 3rd/establishing one by 9 -10minutes, with cannons to dump minerals to protect from ling runbys) If he slows down mutas, and you have like 10 phoenix, thats ok, go kill drones (but keep some phoenix if you can) I then go into 3 base carriers with zealot warp ins (mineral dumps) around the map/in zerg base Many times, zerg then goes, as you say, hydra corruptor, but I have 3-5 carrier, with phoenix and ground support Phoenix to Lift the s*** out of the hydra, and just pick good engagements. If mass corruptor, add voidrays to support carriers (w/ good air upgrades)
Works for me (though as I note, Im also only diamond). I adapated this strategy from RSVP's replay pack, really liked his use of carriers in a few PvZ's, so its my go to.
Edit: Should add that you need to add either Collo or Templar w/storm to fight a maxed Hydra Corruptor w/ upgrades.
With the recent resurgence of gateway expands, why are pros not building their gateways at the ramp so that they can wall off in case of early pools? I remember before FFEs that was the standard way to open (back when the 3 gate sentry expand was common). Wouldn't SOS have held that 10 pool in game 1 against losira if he had walled off with gate core and zealot?
I'm guessing its because he hopes to cancel the zealot and just go for a MsC for defense and plant down the nexus, in which case you want everything in range of the nexus cannon, but in that case doesn't he have to scout to make sure he's not getting 10 pooled?
On May 15 2013 04:55 SteveNick wrote: I have a question in regards to mitigating widow mine damage. This isn't regarding scouting them or countering the drops.
Let's say a widow mine has been dropped in my mineral line and is already almost burrowed, I haven't moved my probes as of yet. I'm thinking that the best thing to do here is to simply leave my probes exactly where they are and take whatever losses come. If I try to do some type of last second pull, my probes will very likely clump up and I will take mass game ending damage, where if I just let them auto mine and let whatever happens happen, I will probably only lose a few. I haven't really found a quick and easy way to spread probes effectively at the last second without creating a clump for a widow mine hit.
Is the general consensus to just leave your probes as is if you can't completely pull them before the widow mine burrows?
The same skills for bio splits vs. banes apply here, as a single probe kill for the widow mine is a very bad trade for the Terran.
This is the Protoss Help thread, not the balance thread. Please only post when you have something constructive to say, thank you.
Since you misunderstood my post let me elaborate, assuming you caught a WM in your mineral line, leaving the nearest probe while you split up the rest to mitigate the chance for the second WM killing of all the fleeing probes.
This is where the Terran's baneling splitting micro comes in, to mitigate the damage from widow mines
Does no one else find it absurd that mutas require double stargate and that swarm hosts require double robo? More specifically that there are no other viable responses.
On May 15 2013 15:16 JSK wrote: Does no one else find it absurd that mutas require double stargate and that swarm hosts require double robo? More specifically that there are no other viable responses.
you don't really need double robo or double stargate in most situations,
The situations you need those to be double is when the zerg get a ton of one or the other all(11-20) at once and you don't see it coming.
In situations you see it coming you can actually just have 1 stargate with blink stalkers to deal with small(10) numbers of mutas. while getting phoenix numbers up. For swarmHost 2 immortals in a warp prism can deal with 5-7 swarm host with good timing and micro. 2 immortals with 1+, 2 shot swarmhosts. Or even blink stalkers can deal with small number of swarmhosts. you just need some way to close the gap for killing swarm host.
another way to deal with swarm host if you open with stargate is just make phoenix 6-8 to lift them b4 they luanch their "free units".
there are more ways to deal with either of them but most of them are situation based.
Any thoughts on the fast double immortal+zealot timing that Flying used against Crazy today in CodeA Game 3? I wonder how well it's suited for the ladder.
From what i've seen of 2base sh, if you play perfectly you can deal with it before even needing 2robo production by delaying his attack as much as possible and using zealot warpins at his nat/third. For instance, JYP in this game makes 2base sh look awful:
Hello. I need some help with dealing with lings+ultralisks play. The problem for me is that even when I recognize what zerg's doing very early (at 7 min usually) and getting prepared since then, I can't get army composition that would trade with zerg's army well enough. I don't see the way to have better or even eco with zerg, because lings with good grades are very strong against any type of harass and in the same time they are also very good in preventing me from taking new expands. They kill it very fast even being fired by a big army. I know that VRays are good against ultralisks, but still I can't find army composition that would be strong enough According to what I've seen on the pro-scene, recognazing what's zerg doing protoss usually goes for 2 base aggression. So is it true that it might be not the best idea to play standard macro game after you recognized that zerg's going for early ultralisks? Is speedlot+archons push the best against it? Thanks for any help.
Hey hows it going guys. I'm really struggling right now against zergs who will open up either hydra ling, mass speedling, or roach, and just always transition into mutas. I feel its really difficult to know when their going mutas because if u see heavy roach or hydra, and their getting a spire it could easily be corrupters. And we all know that you cant prepare for mutas after they come out, you kinda have to have pheonixes ready or at least have the stargates finished. You would think if you see a heavy commitment to gas, like 15-20 roaches, they wouldnt be able to just go mutas on you, but ive lost so many games thinking that way. Anyone have any ideas as to what I could do? I feel as if theres not much toss can do, simply because you never know whats coming out of that spire, you can guess based off of what they have, but that hasn't gotten me very far.
Its pretty stupid how zerg can throw down 2 techs at the same time, like a hydra den and a spire, and preparing for one will screw you vs the other, and all their committing to is the building, which is just about free.
EPT
