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On May 16 2013 09:06 wullull wrote: Currently abit lost in PvZ, in what situations should I go up to a 2nd forge?. Also, what is the safest way to take my third base when up against zerg players with alot of speedlings out?
Well, if you play stargate style, you normally take a 3rd at 10:00, but if your opponent has alot of speedlings, it's better not to take risks so you can take your 3rd at 11:00 and it would be okay. Put a 2nd forge if zerg goes for massive upgraded ling army.
On May 16 2013 09:06 wullull wrote: Currently abit lost in PvZ, in what situations should I go up to a 2nd forge?. Also, what is the safest way to take my third base when up against zerg players with alot of speedlings out?
Well, if you play stargate style, you normally take a 3rd at 10:00, but if your opponent has alot of speedlings, it's better not to take risks so you can take your 3rd at 11:00 and it would be okay. Put a 2nd forge if zerg goes for massive upgraded ling army.
The timing to take a third with a FFE stargate build is arguably getting closer to 9:20, or even 9:00...that is to say, when players get extra gateways before a robo. You warp in units, then expand. On a map such as Akilon Wastes, you can even take it before your robo or any warp ins (Entombed Valley, anyone?). If you go stargate into robo into gateways though, then yeah your will end up taking your third at about 10:00 in a standard game.
On May 16 2013 09:06 wullull wrote: Currently abit lost in PvZ, in what situations should I go up to a 2nd forge?. Also, what is the safest way to take my third base when up against zerg players with alot of speedlings out?
Well, if you play stargate style, you normally take a 3rd at 10:00, but if your opponent has alot of speedlings, it's better not to take risks so you can take your 3rd at 11:00 and it would be okay. Put a 2nd forge if zerg goes for massive upgraded ling army.
The timing to take a third with a FFE stargate build is arguably getting closer to 9:20, or even 9:00...that is to say, when players get extra gateways before a robo. You warp in units, then expand. On a map such as Akilon Wastes, you can even take it before your robo or any warp ins (Entombed Valley, anyone?). If you go stargate into robo into gateways though, then yeah your will end up taking your third at about 10:00 in a standard game.
I'm pretty sure that standard timing for 3rd is 10:00 mark. As far as I remember you get your gates opened and make first warp in to this moment. If you play Parting's gate - exp - sg you also take a 3rd at 10:00.
does anyone have the rough skeleton or build order of artosis dark templar build. He does it with 2 gate pressure and adds a 3rd gate later. I was doing it today just to add another build to my PvP but I dont have the timings correct build order so it doesnt feel crisp
On May 16 2013 18:32 Rupyness wrote: does anyone have the rough skeleton or build order of artosis dark templar build. He does it with 2 gate pressure and adds a 3rd gate later. I was doing it today just to add another build to my PvP but I dont have the timings correct build order so it doesnt feel crisp
I'd been doing something like this, but then I realized that it's pretty unreliable. I'd say it's a coinflip strategy. If you are still interested, this is how I executed it: no scout 13 gate (-> stalker), 15 gas, 18 cybercore, 2nd gas, 19 gate, 2 chrono into nexus, 1 crhono warpgate research, 2 crhono 2nd and 3rd starkers, twilight, slaker, stalker, DS, gate, robo.
Is is mandatory to open robo vs 2 base zerg? I try extra canon 2 sentry and a stargate and is works 2 base lair and 2 base all ins but for me it seems to be an auto loss to nydus swarmhost. Is there a way to beat this with stargate opener? or do i have to open robo? Also I tried voidrays but they make spores and queens at the nydus placement and it doesnt seem to work.
On May 16 2013 23:21 Rickyvalle21 wrote: Is is mandatory to open robo vs 2 base zerg? I try extra canon 2 sentry and a stargate and is works 2 base lair and 2 base all ins but for me it seems to be an auto loss to nydus swarmhost. Is there a way to beat this with stargate opener? or do i have to open robo? Also I tried voidrays but they make spores and queens at the nydus placement and it doesnt seem to work.
The only time I have seen swarm host/nydus with mass queens and spores held with a stargate opener is when White-Ra went into 2 stargate carriers against it. But then again, it's White-Ra. He's a magician who can make anything work against anything.
On May 16 2013 09:06 wullull wrote: Currently abit lost in PvZ, in what situations should I go up to a 2nd forge?. Also, what is the safest way to take my third base when up against zerg players with alot of speedlings out?
Well, if you play stargate style, you normally take a 3rd at 10:00, but if your opponent has alot of speedlings, it's better not to take risks so you can take your 3rd at 11:00 and it would be okay. Put a 2nd forge if zerg goes for massive upgraded ling army.
The timing to take a third with a FFE stargate build is arguably getting closer to 9:20, or even 9:00...that is to say, when players get extra gateways before a robo. You warp in units, then expand. On a map such as Akilon Wastes, you can even take it before your robo or any warp ins (Entombed Valley, anyone?). If you go stargate into robo into gateways though, then yeah your will end up taking your third at about 10:00 in a standard game.
I'm pretty sure that standard timing for 3rd is 10:00 mark. As far as I remember you get your gates opened and make first warp in to this moment. If you play Parting's gate - exp - sg you also take a 3rd at 10:00.
I stated pretty clearly that the timing is earlier IF you go FFE stargate --> gateways --> robo. You don't delay your gateways to get a faster robo and therefore warp in units earlier. How could your first warp in round be at 10 minutes if you build your gateways at about 7 minutes with the build I mentioned? I don't want to pick on you, but please, don't say you are pretty sure of something and then refer to different timings.
On May 16 2013 23:21 Rickyvalle21 wrote: Is is mandatory to open robo vs 2 base zerg? I try extra canon 2 sentry and a stargate and is works 2 base lair and 2 base all ins but for me it seems to be an auto loss to nydus swarmhost. Is there a way to beat this with stargate opener? or do i have to open robo? Also I tried voidrays but they make spores and queens at the nydus placement and it doesnt seem to work.
The only time I have seen swarm host/nydus with mass queens and spores held with a stargate opener is when White-Ra went into 2 stargate carriers against it. But then again, it's White-Ra. He's a magician who can make anything work against anything.
Hm, then again if you think about it it's really not that surprising. Spores and queens are of course amazing against void rays - against carriers though, they are simply outranged, all they can kill if the carriers are microed well is interceptors.
And I'd imagine theyre quite a bit better vs locusts as well - and you can snipe swarm hosts from further away.
Is Protoss a more build order oriented race? Meaning I need to start off with a certain build and then adapt it from there, or have my build based off of what I scout? I hope my question isn't too confusing.
On May 17 2013 03:04 HelpMeGetBetter wrote: Is Protoss a more build order oriented race? Meaning I need to start off with a certain build and then adapt it from there, or have my build based off of what I scout? I hope my question isn't too confusing.
depends on the player most of the time, you could be a player like naniwa who's really good at making build orders and he can react pretty good. Where's a players' like Huk is very micro oriented and is always going to be in your face, forcing you into certain tech routes. Even players' like Parting are micro oriented but can play very reactive.
Again really depends on how you want to play but certain styles are harder to pull off than others.
On May 16 2013 09:06 wullull wrote: Currently abit lost in PvZ, in what situations should I go up to a 2nd forge?. Also, what is the safest way to take my third base when up against zerg players with alot of speedlings out?
Well, if you play stargate style, you normally take a 3rd at 10:00, but if your opponent has alot of speedlings, it's better not to take risks so you can take your 3rd at 11:00 and it would be okay. Put a 2nd forge if zerg goes for massive upgraded ling army.
The timing to take a third with a FFE stargate build is arguably getting closer to 9:20, or even 9:00...that is to say, when players get extra gateways before a robo. You warp in units, then expand. On a map such as Akilon Wastes, you can even take it before your robo or any warp ins (Entombed Valley, anyone?). If you go stargate into robo into gateways though, then yeah your will end up taking your third at about 10:00 in a standard game.
I'm pretty sure that standard timing for 3rd is 10:00 mark. As far as I remember you get your gates opened and make first warp in to this moment. If you play Parting's gate - exp - sg you also take a 3rd at 10:00.
I stated pretty clearly that the timing is earlier IF you go FFE stargate --> gateways --> robo. You don't delay your gateways to get a faster robo and therefore warp in units earlier. How could your first warp in round be at 10 minutes if you build your gateways at about 7 minutes with the build I mentioned? I don't want to pick on you, but please, don't say you are pretty sure of something and then refer to different timings.
This is from the TL's PvZ guide: MC Standard Build(Stargate into 4 Gate into Robo) Recommended Build Order: From the first Gateway-Stalker, Sentry, Sentry. 5:00: +1 Weapons with your first 100 gas. 6:00: Stargate. 6:20 3rd and 4th gas. Stargate units: 1 Void Ray, 5 Phoenixes, optional 2nd Void Ray. 7:50: 3 extra Gates. 8:35: Robo. Robo units: Observer, Immortals as necessary. 10:00: +1 Armor. 10:10: 3rd Nexus. 10:40 2 extra Gates.
So 7:50 + 65 sec + 10 sec transforming gate to warpgate and then warp in. I didn't say, that first warp is at 10 minute, you make warp in at ~9:20 and than go with your little army to take a 3rd. Chill out, please
On May 16 2013 09:06 wullull wrote: Currently abit lost in PvZ, in what situations should I go up to a 2nd forge?. Also, what is the safest way to take my third base when up against zerg players with alot of speedlings out?
Well, if you play stargate style, you normally take a 3rd at 10:00, but if your opponent has alot of speedlings, it's better not to take risks so you can take your 3rd at 11:00 and it would be okay. Put a 2nd forge if zerg goes for massive upgraded ling army.
The timing to take a third with a FFE stargate build is arguably getting closer to 9:20, or even 9:00...that is to say, when players get extra gateways before a robo. You warp in units, then expand. On a map such as Akilon Wastes, you can even take it before your robo or any warp ins (Entombed Valley, anyone?). If you go stargate into robo into gateways though, then yeah your will end up taking your third at about 10:00 in a standard game.
I'm pretty sure that standard timing for 3rd is 10:00 mark. As far as I remember you get your gates opened and make first warp in to this moment. If you play Parting's gate - exp - sg you also take a 3rd at 10:00.
I stated pretty clearly that the timing is earlier IF you go FFE stargate --> gateways --> robo. You don't delay your gateways to get a faster robo and therefore warp in units earlier. How could your first warp in round be at 10 minutes if you build your gateways at about 7 minutes with the build I mentioned? I don't want to pick on you, but please, don't say you are pretty sure of something and then refer to different timings.
This is from the TL's PvZ guide: MC Standard Build(Stargate into 4 Gate into Robo) Recommended Build Order: From the first Gateway-Stalker, Sentry, Sentry. 5:00: +1 Weapons with your first 100 gas. 6:00: Stargate. 6:20 3rd and 4th gas. Stargate units: 1 Void Ray, 5 Phoenixes, optional 2nd Void Ray. 7:50: 3 extra Gates. 8:35: Robo. Robo units: Observer, Immortals as necessary. 10:00: +1 Armor. 10:10: 3rd Nexus. 10:40 2 extra Gates.
So 7:50 + 65 sec + 10 sec transforming gate to warpgate and then warp in. I didn't say, that first warp is at 10 minute, you make warp in at ~9:20 and than go with your little army to take a 3rd. Chill out, please
I asked you not to refer to different timings and you did it again. Again, I don't mean to pick on you man. All I was trying to say is that you can expand earlier and that it's becoming more popular than a 10 minute third. Why do you say a 10 minute third is standard and refer to an old build?
To be honest, I don't even know how the gateways are supposed to be started at 7:50 if you don't build an early robo. By 7:50, you are supposed to start your robo and already have your extra gateways started. I build my gateways at 7:00 just like Rain. I wrote down Rain's timing a while ago as I watched him in proleague and he took his third at 9:20. Parting played very similar to Rain too on that day, though he took his third at 9:40. This build from MC is an old WoL stargate style to say the least. I find Rain's current timings much better. Whether you do the same as Rain or not, the fact of the matter is you can take a third at 9:20. I'm not even saying you can't do MC's build anymore, but it's way different from the build what I'm talking about.
Anyway, in case you want to check out what I am actually talking about, instead of refering to a build with fairly different timings, here are the vods:
I advise anyone interested in PvZ stargate to steal this builds. By the way, I'm not stressed out. In fact, it was a good thing I found those vods as I think they can help a lot of players, myself included.
Does anyone have any tips on fighting vs thor + hellbat + medivac compositions, especially on maps like neo planet? In this game I scouted it pretty early, added a second robo and didn't over-make zealots. However even with a ton of immortal stalker archon and even upgrades my army melted pretty quickly.
Not really sure air would have worked, unless I could hide a few stargates and somehow get up a decent void ray or carrier count. I think I would have just died trying to do that though especially since I didn't have too huge of an econ lead (he was on 2 base the entire game). After re-watching the final battle I feel like I may have mis-microd a bit trying to stutter step forward and focus fire his thors before they could get repaired, but doing so only allowed for the hellbats stuck in the back to get off more shots. Besides that, I'm not really sure how else I should modify my composition. Maybe storms to kill the repairing scvs/ damage the hellbats? Blink perhaps?
is there any particular reason protoss isn't doing wall off against zerg while 1 gate expo into four gate? it seems like if the zerg early pools you, it is much easier to hold with a wall off.
On May 17 2013 07:02 dreamsmasher wrote: is there any particular reason protoss isn't doing wall off against zerg while 1 gate expo into four gate? it seems like if the zerg early pools you, it is much easier to hold with a wall off.
In my experience, it's actually much easier to hold the early pools with no wall off. Position first pylon such that pylon gate gas = full wall. This prevents zerg from just sniping that first pylon and your probes are much closer for pulls.
edit: I probably shouldn't be telling people how to play when I have to ask questions here
low masters here- PvZ it appears the metagame is for Z to go for a muta or sh/hydra midgame then vipers and tech switch between sh/hydra/ultra and mass muta in the late game.
In response I've been going for a much more stargate/robo composed army in favor of phoenix/voids/sentry, colossi and far fewer gateway units/gateways other than sentries and later temps and poking with my expensive army / zealot counters using the MSC and forcing units in the early/midgame, playing for the late game rather than building lots of gateway units and trading.
It seems that stalkers are really not so great against any zerg midgame and later game compositions in comparison to a more appropriate counter, ie phoenix for muta, colossi for lings and hydras and sh and voids/immortals for roach/ultra, and really only build them if I have to, or miss a tech switch by the Z.
Is this more or less how the metagame in PvZ is leaning? Also, if I HAVE to build gateway units vs hydras, stalkers or zealot with more sentries?
The major question I have is upgrades - I get a single forge after expanding, likely after my third for 1/1 and 1 air attack, then depending on if I go for more stargates or more robos i'll get a second forge or a fleat beacon and more air weapons. Which upgrades are best? Do I ever get a second cyber on 3 base? Could probably justify it when I grab a 4th and 5th and have the gas/// i I know in general I want air armor and I assume weapons for zealot/colossi/immortals but it seems that zealots if behind in upgrades aren't exactly super great.
Also my lategame production, I've been going for 3 stargates and 3 robos assuming I get a timely 4th but usually I have WAY less gateways, is prioritizing expansions + robo/stargate often more important ? Can I build a shit ton of cannons on my 4th and 5th+ bases?
On May 17 2013 07:02 dreamsmasher wrote: is there any particular reason protoss isn't doing wall off against zerg while 1 gate expo into four gate? it seems like if the zerg early pools you, it is much easier to hold with a wall off.
Putting the pylon + gate at your wall makes you really weak to 6/7 pools. Putting the cyber there isn't really necessary because you can easily get the MSC out before speed will hit and if the zerg floods lings prior to your MSC being out, he has no drones. A zealot on its own will hold early pools till MSC is out, pulling a few probes is needed.
You then wall at your nat which will finish before most speed timings and thus be safe. A wall at your main doesn't really save you from anything that a msc and zealot won't.
i was speaking mostly about 10 pools with fast speed (example games being the recent parting game in ro16, sOs vs kangho r08 etc...)
On May 17 2013 07:02 dreamsmasher wrote: is there any particular reason protoss isn't doing wall off against zerg while 1 gate expo into four gate? it seems like if the zerg early pools you, it is much easier to hold with a wall off.
Putting the pylon + gate at your wall makes you really weak to 6/7 pools. Putting the cyber there isn't really necessary because you can easily get the MSC out before speed will hit and if the zerg floods lings prior to your MSC being out, he has no drones. A zealot on its own will hold early pools till MSC is out, pulling a few probes is needed.
You then wall at your nat which will finish before most speed timings and thus be safe. A wall at your main doesn't really save you from anything that a msc and zealot won't.
i was speaking mostly about 10 pools with fast speed (example games being the recent parting game in ro16, sOs vs kangho r08 etc...)
Against 10 pool with fast speed, yes, walling at the ramp is better. Walling at the ramp is worse against almost every other build, though, and the 10 pool with fast speed is basically a metagame build. Therefore, I wouldn't recommend walling at the ramp to someone who is just playing ladder games.
On May 17 2013 06:36 Erik.TheRed wrote: Does anyone have any tips on fighting vs thor + hellbat + medivac compositions, especially on maps like neo planet? In this game I scouted it pretty early, added a second robo and didn't over-make zealots. However even with a ton of immortal stalker archon and even upgrades my army melted pretty quickly.
Not really sure air would have worked, unless I could hide a few stargates and somehow get up a decent void ray or carrier count. I think I would have just died trying to do that though especially since I didn't have too huge of an econ lead (he was on 2 base the entire game). After re-watching the final battle I feel like I may have mis-microd a bit trying to stutter step forward and focus fire his thors before they could get repaired, but doing so only allowed for the hellbats stuck in the back to get off more shots. Besides that, I'm not really sure how else I should modify my composition. Maybe storms to kill the repairing scvs/ damage the hellbats? Blink perhaps?
I avoid gateway units and add tons of robo units. Immortals, colossi, in addition to stuff like archons and high templars is really strong. I think some stalkers is fine against thors, but again I favor robo units + archons and storm against mech for the most part.
EPT
