EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 95
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playa
United States1284 Posts
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7mk
Germany10157 Posts
On May 17 2013 06:36 Erik.TheRed wrote: Does anyone have any tips on fighting vs thor + hellbat + medivac compositions, especially on maps like neo planet? In this game I scouted it pretty early, added a second robo and didn't over-make zealots. However even with a ton of immortal stalker archon and even upgrades my army melted pretty quickly Not really sure air would have worked, unless I could hide a few stargates and somehow get up a decent void ray or carrier count. I think I would have just died trying to do that though especially since I didn't have too huge of an econ lead (he was on 2 base the entire game). After re-watching the final battle I feel like I may have mis-microd a bit trying to stutter step forward and focus fire his thors before they could get repaired, but doing so only allowed for the hellbats stuck in the back to get off more shots. Besides that, I'm not really sure how else I should modify my composition. Maybe storms to kill the repairing scvs/ damage the hellbats? Blink perhaps? replay: http://drop.sc/335199 Well the game starts off a bit weird, he was powering hard and you do an attack at his natural at a really good timing, right before his factories could really produce anything. And yet you let 4 marines in a bunker and 1 thor scare away your zealot stalker, 1 sentry 2 immortal force. One forcefield covering the bunker, attack and you will at least do crippling damage right there. Then the second attack at his natural you didnt focus fire until quite late, immortals shooting scvs rather than focus firing thors made a big difference. And I do think you overmade stalkers, that was a lot of gas put into them - they kinda suck against thors and dont do that well vs hellbats either. Chargelots are bad vs hellbats but they only cost minerals which means more archons and more HTs and in that game storm would have helped a ton. There was not a single unit that could have done anything against the HTs which means garantueed damage with storm. It would have instantly killed all scvs, greatly damage the hellbats and medivacs (which you could have feedbacked as well), and even against thors, when theyre in such massive clumps like his that damage is not negligible. (Similar to how banelings that are awful against thors suddenly do a lot of damage if theyre clumped up enough) Both thors and hellbats cant snipe HTs and they are also so slow that they cant really dodge them. But if you do get that many stalkers yes definitely get blink, helps their survivability a lot, and you can often snipe some free units and blink away and especially on bigger maps abuse the terrans much slower army. And it helps against vikings, if you kill all of those with storm and stalkers a colossus transition can be strong, although in this game it was most likely right of you not to build any. And btw. in the last fight you mightve still done fine army comp wise but he did just have a considerably bigger army (+ scvs) because you had lost so much before that point. So I think all in all there were a few things you couldve done differently a) kill him when he didnt have units b)micro the 2nd attack better c)different army comp and/or blink and/or storm, d) dont try to do a 2 base attack and take a much earlier 3rd instead. | ||
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JSK
United States133 Posts
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
This is a practice game between me and a clan mate of mine. My clan mate was planning to do the SCV-pull Viking timing, while I was attempting the mass Colossus style Rain used vs. Flash in a recent TL Strategy spotlight, but opening more standard instead of opening with an Oracle. However, my opponent did something unexpected, and contained me on 2 bases. Spreading his forces in a ridiculous concave, I didn't have any way to break out. I tried at about 13 minutes with four Colossi, and still lost. My opponent didn't know how I could break it in a timely manner with Rain's build, but if this contain couldn't be broken without Templar, surely Rain would have gone for Templar, right? So, my questions: 1) How could I have broken this contain in a timely manner to take my third? 2) Can this build hold the SCV-pull Viking timing popularised by Bomber? (I assume it can, but maybe Rain knew Flash wouldn't pull SCV's, and took that risk?) | ||
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mortales
174 Posts
On May 17 2013 04:54 vhapter wrote: I asked you not to refer to different timings and you did it again. Again, I don't mean to pick on you man. All I was trying to say is that you can expand earlier and that it's becoming more popular than a 10 minute third. Why do you say a 10 minute third is standard and refer to an old build? To be honest, I don't even know how the gateways are supposed to be started at 7:50 if you don't build an early robo. By 7:50, you are supposed to start your robo and already have your extra gateways started. I build my gateways at 7:00 just like Rain. I wrote down Rain's timing a while ago as I watched him in proleague and he took his third at 9:20. Parting played very similar to Rain too on that day, though he took his third at 9:40. This build from MC is an old WoL stargate style to say the least. I find Rain's current timings much better. Whether you do the same as Rain or not, the fact of the matter is you can take a third at 9:20. I'm not even saying you can't do MC's build anymore, but it's way different from the build what I'm talking about. I said that the standard timing for taking a 3rd is 10 min, you started arguing with me that it's more closer to 9 min mark, then you said that I refered to the different timings while I meant SG - 3 gate - robo build. I provided the quote from TL's PvZ guide wich proved my words that 10 min is a standard timing but you again claimed that I refered to the different timings and provided VoDs where Rain used EXACT THE SAME BUILD I meant which known as MC's Stargate build. Rain took a 3rd at 9:30 (30 game seconds what a big deal!) because he controlled the map perfectly and he saw that zerg was not going to make lings to delay his 3rd. But to be completely safe you usually take a 3rd 30 sec later but it doesn't mean that you can't take it a little bit earlier. I even don't get why you started arguing with me and what you were going to prove -.- | ||
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Prakas
United States30 Posts
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Olli
Austria24417 Posts
On May 17 2013 19:11 Prakas wrote: I haven't played for 6 months, so I recently got HoTs. I have noticed a lot of the maps have larger rush distances. With that said, my question on 6 pools:::::: PvZ---Is Nexus first, then forge SAFE against 6 pool?? Or will zerglings still have plenty of time to just run by everything? I prefer to play safe. If not is FFE still the safest way to fast expand? Nexus first will lose you the game and you shouldn't do it against a 6pool. Scout after your 9 pylon. If it's a 2-player map you'll scout the 6 pool => immediately make a forge + a pylon behind your minerals to put a cannon in your mineral line. If it's a 4player map and you don't scout your opponent by 13/14 supply then I'd recommend going very traditional forge first into nexus. On 2 player maps your scouting probe will always tell you the pool timing. Against a standard 14 pool you can absolutely go nexus first. | ||
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v0lk
Portugal5 Posts
Now my primary concern is, sometimes i dont know what to do , what tech path to choose ,etc. for example, playing against zerg. I like to go for colossus, but if they have a Roach/baneling/Zergling what do i need the colossus for ? should i go just for immortal and dont tech for colossi ? In PvP the same happens to me. I like robo builds because they are easier for me since i dont micro that well, but sometimes i got cought by void ray builds, wich makes my colossi/immortal totally useless. Should i wait and see what my opponent has to choose my tech ? or do i need to macro way better and got my tech and catch him by surprise ? Can someone help me and maybe tell me some builds i can practice ? this is what i usually do: PvP: 1 gate FE into 4 gate robo immortal push PvT: either 1 gate FE into 5 gate blink stalker or stargate expansion, and then i tech to w/e i feel like. PvZ: here's the deal, i usually do a forge FE and then i do like a 4 gate zealot +1 pressure while i take my 3rd and add my twilight and robo. but i've seen many ppl doin 1 gate FE against the zerg, but i cant really seem to make it work. thanks in advance , v0lk | ||
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MegaFonzie
Australia1084 Posts
On May 17 2013 17:01 Salivanth wrote: http://drop.sc/335296 This is a practice game between me and a clan mate of mine. My clan mate was planning to do the SCV-pull Viking timing, while I was attempting the mass Colossus style Rain used vs. Flash in a recent TL Strategy spotlight, but opening more standard instead of opening with an Oracle. However, my opponent did something unexpected, and contained me on 2 bases. Spreading his forces in a ridiculous concave, I didn't have any way to break out. I tried at about 13 minutes with four Colossi, and still lost. My opponent didn't know how I could break it in a timely manner with Rain's build, but if this contain couldn't be broken without Templar, surely Rain would have gone for Templar, right? So, my questions: 1) How could I have broken this contain in a timely manner to take my third? 2) Can this build hold the SCV-pull Viking timing popularised by Bomber? (I assume it can, but maybe Rain knew Flash wouldn't pull SCV's, and took that risk?) Hey mate! I'll preface this with a bit on the double forge style and why the early game is key. When doing a build such as double forge colossus in pvt, your early game macro is absolutely essential. As it's a very defensive style early on, you don't really have the ability to put pressure on the terran in any way, hence, he is able to macro totally as he wishes. That is absolutely fine, but it means it's imperative that your own macro is absolutely on point, because you aren't gaining an edge in any other way. You're just defending, and building. Taking a look at this replay, the macro is where it really falls apart for you. Your opponent for the most part macroed pretty solidly in that first 12 minute period. You on the other hand probably have a few more things to tighten up to really get the ideal amount of stuff by the time a typical terran move out will start to become a threat. At the end of the day, you couldn't break his contain simply because you didnt have enough stuff. Templar aren't necessary to break a 'contain' of that nature, it's all about having a sizable force. I'll try and help break down that early part of the game for you so you can head into the mid game with a more refined build, and a tonne more stuff. I'm not sure how often you watch pro games, but luckily, there is a wealth of games in proleague and gsl to study up on. For now, I'd recommend you check out this game from Rain's teammate Brown vs Taeja on Whirlwind: The game drags on for quite some time and I believe Brown ends up losing, but all we really want to study now is the first 10-13 minutes of the game and compare how Brown executes this build to how you do. Here's an incredibly brief (and sloppy) set of notes on the timings of the key structures and the order that he spends his gas; * 2 Sentries only * 46 Double Gas * 50 Double Forge (7min) * Triple Observer * Next 200 Gas robo bay * +1/+1 * Next 100 Gas TC (8min) * Start warping in zealots around 9mins * +1 Range, Blink * 97 Supply @ 10 mins * 3 Gates @ 10 mins * Warp in 6 zealots then stalkers There's a couple benchmarks in there that are a nice goal to set yourself, particularly being at 97 supply at 10 minutes. At the same time in your replay, you were sitting at 72 supply with your upgrades not as far along and blink hadn't been started yet. So just looking at that, there's obviously a fair bit of room for improvement to focus on. Imagine how much easier it wouldve been to break that contain with 25 supply more of stuff! You'll notice in the game that Brown has a difficult time securing his 3rd also, he doesnt get to plant it down until around 13 minutes, but that's totally fine because he has kept up his macro and continued upgrading off of two bases (this is an important note - in your game you stopped upgrading after 1/1. Even if you are stuck on 1 base you want to keep those upgrades flowing with this style). The important thing was he kept his cool and waited until he was sure his force was strong enough to push Taeja's army back. Obviously Brown is an incredibly skilled progamer so macroing at the same level as him isn't going to be easy, but for this early period of the game, it's certainly possible as you get more comfortable with the build you're executing. All it takes is really knowing your timings of when to build certain structures and avoiding supply blocks. If you can lock down those two key points, you'll find your early game flows a lot better into the mid game. I hope that helps you a little bit! Like I said, there are a bunch more games on youtube of protoss executing this style, including a number from Rain himself. Go ahead and try and check some of those out and really look for little things they do in the earlier portion of the game to maximize their macro. As for point 2, yes it can hold the SCV pull off 3bases even without storm. I remember watching a game where that exact situation happened and Rain held, I just can't remember who it was against though. I feel like it was probably in the GSL but it may have been proleague. glhf in your games, feel free to pm me or reply to this post again if you have any more questions! | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
Thank you so much for this. This is going to be my bible for the next several weeks while I try and at least get 90+. I'm surprised my opponent didn't realise this was why I lost. You are a brilliant man, MegaFonzie. I can see why you kicked my ass in that wT weekly now  THANK you! This will improve my play SO DAMN MUCH, against every Terran I face. | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
Thanks a lot! I play this SKT style in PvT a lot (I'm low - mid master on EU) and I have a lot of success with it. But I didn't benchmark my timings that much. Against SCV/viking timings I usually I don't have problems because of the superior upgrades and an early archon switch (I start my templar archives usually when my 3rd colossus starts). | ||
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
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mortales
174 Posts
On May 18 2013 00:25 Rickyvalle21 wrote: How do I defend vs hellbat drops? I find that canons and stalkers to be inefficient vs hellbat drops when the drops get there do to healing and stalkers low dps. Is the key not let the drop happen? I tried 1 canons per mineral line and they still are able to deal Tons of economic damage and I cant recover. defending in mineral line is not a good idea, try defend as if it would be a marine/marauder drop i.e. catch medivacs before drops happen. | ||
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
On May 18 2013 00:56 mortales wrote: defending in mineral line is not a good idea, try defend as if it would be a marine/marauder drop i.e. catch medivacs before drops happen. I was thinking the same thing except its not easy with medivac boost. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On May 17 2013 18:22 mortales wrote: I said that the standard timing for taking a 3rd is 10 min, you started arguing with me that it's more closer to 9 min mark, then you said that I refered to the different timings while I meant SG - 3 gate - robo build. I provided the quote from TL's PvZ guide wich proved my words that 10 min is a standard timing but you again claimed that I refered to the different timings and provided VoDs where Rain used EXACT THE SAME BUILD I meant which known as MC's Stargate build. Rain took a 3rd at 9:30 (30 game seconds what a big deal!) because he controlled the map perfectly and he saw that zerg was not going to make lings to delay his 3rd. But to be completely safe you usually take a 3rd 30 sec later but it doesn't mean that you can't take it a little bit earlier. I even don't get why you started arguing with me and what you were going to prove -.- Easy there! I'm not here to argue with anyone, ok? The only point I'm trying to make is that these old timings force you to take a third later, whereas Rain's build - which is not the exact same build in the slightest - allows for a safer and earlier third, because you get units out faster. Most vods in the PvZ guide show games where the third is taken after 10:00. If you take your third at 10:10 as the guide suggests when you could have taken it at 9:20, it means you are starting your third when it could be 50% done, which is pretty significant imho. But it's not only that. Rain's build is fairly different from MC's when it boils down to timings and safety. I think everyone who likes to go stargate in PvZ should watch those vods I posted and give Rain's timings a try. Here's a comparison: Rain-------------------------------MC | 5:30 | Stargate.........| 6:00 | Stargate | 5:45 | 3rd/4th gas.....| 6:20 | 3rd/4th gas | 7:00 | gates.............| 7:50 | gates | 7:40 | robo...............| 8:35 | robo | 8:00 | +1 atk............| 5:00 | +1 atk | 8:15 | msc............... *wol = no msc* | 8:45 | robo bay.........| 9:40+ | robo bay | 9:20-9:40 | twilight....| ??? | twilight | 9:20-9:40 | third........| 10:10+ | third Stargate 30 seconds earlier - enough time for a phoenix to come out. 3rd/4th gas at 5:45 - much more gas, which is very helpful with a build like this (I remember having to tweak my PvZ stargate timings based on my gas income and I realized 6:20 was too late for my 3rd/4th gas, not a coincidence Rain took his gases earlier... and not a coincidence he gets his robo earlier as well). Gateways 50 seconds earlier - nearly 2 warp-in cycles. Robo 55 seconds earlier - first colossus out before 11:00 minutes instead of 12:00, and it's possible to move out with an immortal to take your third if you find that useful (in other words - a faster third is much safer even against roaches). I've decided to share these timings because I think the build in PvZ guide is outdated. The gateways are very late, the robo is very late, etc. Since I've already jotted down the timings, there's no harm in sharing it. I don't intend to discuss this any further - these are the timings and you can find the vods on the previous page. I hope this helps other players, it helped me a ton. | ||
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mortales
174 Posts
On May 18 2013 02:31 vhapter wrote: Easy there! I'm not here to argue with anyone, ok? The only point I'm trying to make is that these old timings force you to take a third later, whereas Rain's build - which is not the exact same build in the slightest - allows for a safer and earlier third, because you get units out faster. Most vods in the PvZ guide show games where the third is taken after 10:00. If you take your third at 10:10 as the guide suggests when you could have taken it at 9:20, it means you are starting your third when it could be 50% done, which is pretty significant imho. But it's not only that. Rain's build is fairly different from MC's when it boils down to timings and safety. I think everyone who likes to go stargate in PvZ should watch those vods I posted and give Rain's timings a try. Here's a comparison: Rain-------------------------------MC | 5:30 | Stargate.........| 6:00 | Stargate | 5:45 | 3rd/4th gas.....| 6:20 | 3rd/4th gas | 7:00 | gates.............| 7:50 | gates | 7:40 | robo...............| 8:35 | robo | 8:00 | +1 atk............| 5:00 | +1 atk | 8:15 | msc............... *wol = no msc* | 8:45 | robo bay.........| 9:40+ | robo bay | 9:20-9:40 | twilight....| ??? | twilight | 9:20-9:40 | third........| 10:10+ | third Stargate 30 seconds earlier - enough time for a phoenix to come out. 3rd/4th gas at 5:45 - much more gas, which is very helpful with a build like this (I remember having to tweak my PvZ stargate timings based on my gas income and I realized 6:20 was too late for my 3rd/4th gas, not a coincidence Rain took his gases earlier... and not a coincidence he gets his robo earlier as well). Gateways 50 seconds earlier - nearly 2 warp-in cycles. Robo 55 seconds earlier - first colossus out before 11:00 minutes instead of 12:00, and it's possible to move out with an immortal to take your third if you find that useful (in other words - a faster third is much safer even against roaches). I've decided to share these timings because I think the build in PvZ guide is outdated. The gateways are very late, the robo is very late, etc. Since I've already jotted down the timings, there's no harm in sharing it. I don't intend to discuss this any further - these are the timings and you can find the vods on the previous page. I hope this helps other players, it helped me a ton. it's not Rain's build. It's still old MC's build. but with nexus first, without stalker, without VoidRay... Rain played more greedy, less safe. MC does the same these days. If smb went 16 nexus - pylon - forge you would say that he invented a new innovative build order with better timings? hmpf... But still even doing that greedy things, taking a 3rd Rain had 3 sentry and about 4 zealots, so if zerg did some ling aggression, that units would be likely to be eaten. Thats why 9:30 is not the standrad timing, you can't say that it's the standrard while playing so you lose every time when zerg goes for ling aggression. Taking a 3rd at 10:00 you are absolutely safe from everything, thats way it's the standard. Well, thats it. I think there's nothing to add, so if you are still disagree it's still pointless to continue this discussion. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
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Rickyvalle21
United States320 Posts
On May 18 2013 05:37 aldochillbro wrote: does anyone have any notes on the 1 gate fe in pvp? when to get the msc, gases, nexus, when to scout, etc. also, how exactly would you deal with an oracle void ray allin like artosis did a lot in beta? the build get's an oracle and like 3/4 void rays to attack your main while still pressuring with gateway units and the void rays if your opponent decides to pull them from the main. 1 gate fe in pvp excels on 4 player maps. You get msc right away(which is double gas at 15) nexus as soon as you can so if a all in comes then you can use photon overcharge earlier. Scout after nexus. To beat any type of all in you need to rush to 3 gates and robo(safety for dts) and pump out enough units to defend along with the help of photon overcharge. Here is a good replay of SaSe execution of 1 gate fe defending a stargate all in: http://drop.sc/329409 | ||
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