EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 97
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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iliketeatoo
United States1 Post
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chindy
82 Posts
On May 19 2013 07:44 iliketeatoo wrote: Hey guys, gold level protoss here. I have been having a lot of trouble in PvZ against early ling pressure into mass muta. I need some help with a build order and unti comp that counters this style of play. Hi, what is very important is a decent wallin. I think there is a thread about wallins on the maps...if you cant find it look it up in the bit PvZ thread there is a section for sure. Then there are a lot of things you need to take account of to see what there is going to happen or what you should do next. 1. What did the Zerg do? 6 pool...; what pool; did he build drones... Normally it is something like 2 base mass speed ling with 16 drones. So to sum it up, the best thing to do is wallin everything good and then make a +1 4 Gate, into stargate and see waht your opponent is doing if he is really going for Mutas start building Phoenix and make the Phoenix range upgrade. | ||
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sc2pal
Poland624 Posts
On May 18 2013 22:03 sc2pal wrote: GM PvZ http://drop.sc/335494 Game starts out somewhat standard, I succesfuly contain him on 2base, hes going swarm host, eventualy we macro up after i defend endless waves of locust, harrassing him, getting some value out of it, denying alot of bases, keeping his income low. Eventualy its split map scenario, he puts up alot of static defence which i try to kill while harrasing his bases, but he just keeps rebuilding, eventualy after trying every option that came to my mind I die after I run out of gas. Please address lategame, not you could've killed him at X up, still no clue | ||
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Putty
210 Posts
I tried 2 solutions 1) Pre-emptive split the army and then just ignore the storm, bruteforcing everything. 2) Try to dodge the storm I don't know what is the best way, because in case #1 i take a lot of storm damage (even splitting) and in #2 too | ||
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aldochillbro
187 Posts
if no one answered it that means no one can give you a solid answer. I honestly think late game pvz is broken atm unless you go pure skytoss ht's. there's really no way to cost effectively push back locusts with upgrades and break their static defense along with vipers, infestors, and whatever else they have. The best way to beat imo it is a 2 base allin(frustrating answer, I know) or just make sure you go skytoss. I think skytoss is kinda imba pvz when you can actually get there so at least we have that going for us. User was warned for this post edit: this in not balance whining, it's objective analysis...i said that both races have certain imbalanced things. Can anyone come up with a ground composition that beats swarm hosts, vipers, corrupters, and infestors? can anyone link a game where split map pvz is won without skytoss? I gave him a solid answer: either don't let it get to that stage of the game or go skytoss. mods need to look at the whole post before assuming i'm balance whining. | ||
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BCNMusic
United States36 Posts
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ACrow
Germany6583 Posts
On May 19 2013 23:06 BCNMusic wrote: How would you keep scouting if you dont have a obs? I have a problem with scouting. That's a very generic question (matchup, race, style, early/mid/late game etc all play a huge role), so I can only give a very generic answer: hallucinated Phoenixes are very good scouts and tech patch independent, too. A single hallucination will usually give you a complete scout of 3+ bases (except heavy fortification in late game), just make sure you fly over his rally point (for army scout) last after you have shift-clicked through his bases. | ||
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Salivanth
Australia1071 Posts
I know that this question has been asked and answered in the OP, but I tried that, and still got rolled. Here's a replay of a game I just played. http://drop.sc/335719 In this game, I had a mix of Zealots, Immortals, Archons, and Blink Stalkers. I maxxed out in time for his push, and I had 2/2 upgrades. I still got absolutely mauled by nothing but Hellbats and Tanks. Everything just MELTED, and I have no idea what I could have done. I could have played better, but I don't see any way I could have won the engagement without MASSIVELY outplaying my opponent. All I can see are ways I could have lost slightly less hard. Please help, if possible. If this is still against the thread rules, I apologise, and I'll open a thread specifically for this. | ||
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Patriots
United States19 Posts
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eNtitY~
United States1293 Posts
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FLUFFYPenguin
Finland25 Posts
On May 20 2013 00:56 eNtitY~ wrote: How did Collosi work itself back into the PvP Meta? If I'm going Collosi (Especially double Robo which we've seen lately in pro games) how do that not get hard countered by VR / Chargelot / Archon? Why are so many late game PvP's looking like WoL lately? How I feel based on my games (EU master) is that if you both end up going Colossi it's impossible to switch into VR, since the other player will be able to just kill you during the time you're transitioning and are on both low Colossi and VR numbers. | ||
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BCNMusic
United States36 Posts
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mamaDrone
Sweden43 Posts
On May 19 2013 23:41 Salivanth wrote: I need help with mech. I know that this question has been asked and answered in the OP, but I tried that, and still got rolled. Here's a replay of a game I just played. http://drop.sc/335719 In this game, I had a mix of Zealots, Immortals, Archons, and Blink Stalkers. I maxxed out in time for his push, and I had 2/2 upgrades. I still got absolutely mauled by nothing but Hellbats and Tanks. Everything just MELTED, and I have no idea what I could have done. I could have played better, but I don't see any way I could have won the engagement without MASSIVELY outplaying my opponent. All I can see are ways I could have lost slightly less hard. Please help, if possible. If this is still against the thread rules, I apologise, and I'll open a thread specifically for this. Looked through your replay, and as a fellow Master-league player I'm going to try to help you out as much as I can! I haven't encountered mech much on the ladder (most Terrans seem to play bio still) but I'm going to try to give you a few pointers. First off I'm going to upload my most recent PvTmech game. This was however against a Terran that seemed to never have played mech before and was practicing build orders but I think it would give you a rough 'what to do and what not'. I must say that I played very poorly in that game (didnt shut down drops properly, played unusually sloppy etc), but so did my opponent. Replay -> http://drop.sc/335778 What I learned from my previous, few, encounters vs mech is that you need to play really greedy cause as soon as the Terran gets the critical amount of tanks and hellbats you can't break him on a two-base economy. You simply can't support the production you need. This you did good in this game (I don't know how you normally play). You got a fairly quick third and fourth. You got a nice scout pretty early, you saw the factories and you weren't playing in the dark. The question here would be what kind of mech he'd play. If he'd play tank or mine heavy, with or without vikings etc. You shut down drops nicely. The biggest 'wrong' in this game is your unit composition, for sure. Hellbats melt zealots and stalkers aren't very effecient against tanks. The fact that the Terran mixed in ghosts in his composition sure made your composition a lot worse. What I normally do against 'meching' Terrans is to drop both stargates and robotics. If you had void rays in your unitcomposition, instead of the colossus, zealots and/or stalkers this game would've taken a different turn for sure - especially since the Terran had zero vikings. Your engagement could also have been much better. You could've split up your units and attacked from different angles instead of head straight on. With a different unitcomposition this was your game, for sure, as you were ahead in pretty much every aspect of the game. | ||
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mamaDrone
Sweden43 Posts
On May 20 2013 03:59 BCNMusic wrote: What time does Muta come out for zerg so I know because I have troubles with mutas This varies a lot depending on how greedy the zerg plays, if he's being harrassed by you etc. If it's a 2base play you can expect mutas from the 8minute mark and forward. If its a 3base they normally come around 10 minutes+ and in a much larger number. | ||
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BCNMusic
United States36 Posts
On May 20 2013 04:06 mamaDrone wrote: This varies a lot depending on how greedy the zerg plays, if he's being harrassed by you etc. If it's a 2base play you can expect mutas from the 8minute mark and forward. If its a 3base they normally come around 10 minutes+ and in a much larger number. How will I defend that should I get a early TC? like around what time should I put a TC? | ||
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mamaDrone
Sweden43 Posts
On May 20 2013 04:10 BCNMusic wrote: How will I defend that should I get a early TC? like around what time should I put a TC? Easiest and most effecient way to defend mutas is to simply build phoenixes. Blink stalkers are doing a pretty poor job against them nowadays now when mutas regenerate health. *edit The danger of going for phoenixes is a potential hydra techswitch. Depending on your opener, and if you suspect/scout mutas, I'd recommend that you follow up the stargate with a robotics facility for future (potential) colossus. If you scout mutas just about when theyre about to pop, or have popped you should put down a secondary (and if needed a third stargate) and continue producing phoenixes. | ||
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BCNMusic
United States36 Posts
On May 20 2013 04:17 mamaDrone wrote: Easiest and most effecient way to defend mutas is to simply build phoenixes. Blink stalkers are doing a pretty poor job against them nowadays now when mutas regenerate health. *edit The danger of going for phoenixes is a potential hydra techswitch. Depending on your opener, and if you suspect/scout mutas, I'd recommend that you follow up the stargate with a robotics facility for future (potential) colossus. If you scout mutas just about when theyre about to pop, or have popped you should put down a secondary (and if needed a third stargate) and continue producing phoenixes. How effective is it to open up with stargate against muta? Also how many mutas can be killed with 1 phoniex? | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On May 19 2013 23:41 Salivanth wrote: I need help with mech. I know that this question has been asked and answered in the OP, but I tried that, and still got rolled. Here's a replay of a game I just played. http://drop.sc/335719 In this game, I had a mix of Zealots, Immortals, Archons, and Blink Stalkers. I maxxed out in time for his push, and I had 2/2 upgrades. I still got absolutely mauled by nothing but Hellbats and Tanks. Everything just MELTED, and I have no idea what I could have done. I could have played better, but I don't see any way I could have won the engagement without MASSIVELY outplaying my opponent. All I can see are ways I could have lost slightly less hard. Please help, if possible. If this is still against the thread rules, I apologise, and I'll open a thread specifically for this. You actually had a pretty awful maxed army comp. Too many gateway units, and no AOE. I would have liked to see a lot more colo in your army, you had 3 robo. Zealots, even with charge, are not very useful against mech in late game. They're ok against early-mid game 1-2 base timings, but when you get to maxed armies for both sides and the opposing sides has hellbats, you need to get rid of your zealots. The only time you should make zealots late game is during/immediately after a battle when you need to reinforce quickly and your opponent's hellbats are mostly gone. Blink stalkers are ok, but again just like zealots their usefulness diminishes as the game goes on. If you have blink stalkers you need to be much more active with them - spot when he moves out, and kite him back to your base with them. If you're just going to sit around with them you might as well have invested the majority of your army into something else, as they're bad in a straight up engagement. The immortals were good, but they need to be spread out somewhat and not all clumped up to get destroyed by splash and emp. Archons are better than gateway units but I still personally don't like them too much. They're not bad though. When playing against mech there's generally only 2 things to watch out for - a quick 2 base push, and then the maxed army 3 base attack. As soon as I spot mech, I expand + make more robos, which you did in this game. However, I stop making gateway units completely and just focus on teching to air, economy, and producing only robo units (both immo and colo). If he is doing a 2 base timing before max, you'll still have time to warp in 2-3 rounds of gateway units before he hits and defend. However, in a maxed army engagement, even if you have a better comp with more robo units, you'll still probably lose - IMO you need to have air to battle a maxed terran mech army. Personally I prefer carriers since void rays are weaker to widow mines. My favorite strategy now against any type of mech is to expand multiple times all around the map (going up to 4-5+ bases, don't just be satisfied with 3), and immediately start a mass air transition. When he moves out I'll just counter into his base with my small ground army to force a base race. If he has little to no anti-air (i.e. he did not scan and spot my transition), it's instant GG. If he has a decent number of vikings and/or he has thors in his comp, eventually I'll still win because even though my ground army is small it's still enough to pretty much destroy his economy, and since I've expanded all around the map he won't be able to kill everything before I can overpower him with air. DTs are also great in these situations. On May 20 2013 04:25 BCNMusic wrote: How effective is it to open up with stargate against muta? Also how many mutas can be killed with 1 phoniex? I apologize for sounding rude, but I don't know else how to put it - you're asking bad questions that don't have straightforward answers - it depends greatly is the answer you'll get for all of them. It sounds like you should just try playing/watching the game a bit more just to get to know the game a bit better. On May 20 2013 02:08 FLUFFYPenguin wrote: How I feel based on my games (EU master) is that if you both end up going Colossi it's impossible to switch into VR, since the other player will be able to just kill you during the time you're transitioning and are on both low Colossi and VR numbers. Yep - it really depends on early game builds. If neither player opens stargate/voids, it can be difficult to transition into voids since you'll be very weak to any 2 base timing when your void count is still low. Meanwhile, if you open stargate and/or go straight to voids, people have realized that just going mass gateway either for a 2 base timing or with storm later on is pretty strong against voids, and as the void ray player it's safer to go for some colo when you see your opponent massing gateway. Then the person going mass gateway sees colo and has to add colo of his own. On May 20 2013 00:44 Patriots wrote: So in PvP one of the safest builds is blink robo; Do people usually open 3 stalker rush when they do this build? And when do you add twilight, 3rd (maybe 2nd gate too) and robo. Thanks :DDDD Any opening can lead to pretty much any tech path these days. While blink robo is still a viable build, it's rarely a build you blindly go for now, for 2 main reasons. First, if you want to be aggressive with blink and use the obs for high ground vision, you can now simply use MSC and you don't need a robo. Second, if you want to play a bit more passive/reactive and go robo first for safety, greedier builds such as 1 gate FE can easily defend against robo followed by blink due to the defensive capabilities of the MSC as well as the extended blink research time. So if you're going to go robo first then TC, you should probably hallu scout or do a stalker MSC pressure to get an idea of what your opponent is doing, and then either immediately expand off the robo if you can or go for the TC if you scout stargate, etc. | ||
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mamaDrone
Sweden43 Posts
On May 20 2013 04:25 BCNMusic wrote: How effective is it to open up with stargate against muta? Also how many mutas can be killed with 1 phoniex? Let me put it this way - it is far more effecient to kill mutas with phoenixes than it is with blink stalkers. Why? Because phoenixes are faster than mutas and thus can chase them down and kite them for an eternity. In theory you can kill a gazillion mutas with a single phoenix if you've got enough space, time and patience. A good number of phoenixes with a stargate-opener is 3-5 if you choose to open stargate without scouting for mutas. If you scout mutas you want as many phoenixes as you feel comfortable beating his/her army with. | ||
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BCNMusic
United States36 Posts
On May 20 2013 04:28 mamaDrone wrote: Let me put it this way - it is far more effecient to kill mutas with phoenixes than it is with blink stalkers. Why? Because phoenixes are faster than mutas and thus can chase them down and kite them for an eternity. In theory you can kill a gazillion mutas with a single phoenix if you've got enough space, time and patience. A good number of phoenixes with a stargate-opener is 3-5 if you choose to open stargate without scouting for mutas. If you scout mutas you want as many phoenixes as you feel comfortable beating his/her army with. Thank you and one more question when is it a good time to take a 3rd? | ||
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