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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
I'm trying to learn PvP stargate. I wonder how you're supposed to play stargate mirror. At pro level, you just see mass phoenix and (as far as I know) a very late switch to mass archons. I played a game the other day where my opponent switched to mass void rays + high templar. Phoenix didn't seem to cut it that well. What are you supposed to do against a protoss who doesn't mass phoenix himself? I also noticed mass phoenix costs a lot of resources. Are you even supposed to have enough resources left for gateway units? If your opponent switches to something like blink stalker, can you just go kill him with phoenix?
One more thing - isn't it a natural transition to go mass void ray if you open stargate vs robo? HerO went colossi before mass void rays yesterday in proleague (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCsMLZsNgQY). I thought colossi were bad nowadays, especially against mass void rays or a handful of tempest. What reason does a player have to go colossi against stargate or switch to colossi when going stargate?
On a side note: I don't know why the op says terran can't ebay block your natural if he's not going gasless expand. When going reaper expand, terran can ebay block your natural before getting their cc if they scout no zealot and still harass with a reaper. Flash himself sends an scv out himself when he goes reaper to delay the nexus on small maps.
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When is a good time to apply pressure to a Z player?
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Italy12246 Posts
That question is way too generic to be answered well, but generally, if you are taking a third you can not put pressure on until it kicks in and you get some high tech units out. There's plenty of 2base timings available though; if you want to just put pressure on i recommend some +1 zealot variation. You can read about it in the WoL PvZ guide.
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On May 21 2013 07:09 BCNMusic wrote:
When is a good time to apply pressure to a Z player?
Have you ever heard the term "sharking"? It's a popular strategy in PvZ where you continually feint pressure to do things like remove ling scouts/watch towers and threaten to attack to keep the Zerg's drone count low by forcing units. You can use this tactic especially with the help of the MSC to recall if something terrible happens and you get in a bad position.
I figure since your question was so general, a general answer would be appropriate.
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Italy12246 Posts
Sharking hasn't really been done in ages. These days you either play passively or commit to a timing. Sharking can work but it's an outdated style of play, and it can be quite risky sometimes (zergs are a lot more aggressive in the midgame than they were in 2010/early 2011).
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If I see an ultra switch is it better to go for more voids or more immortals? I already have colossi forcing corruptors and if I don't add voids I need to also add on archons and storm rather than just VR (which shouldn't be too far off since I have a few phoenix to be safe)
I'll be adding on temps/storm one vipers are on the field as it is though, so I'm not sure which is better.
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Italy12246 Posts
Immortals imo. If you can identify ultra ling (double evo, fast infestation pit, fast hive, no other tech, third at about 7 minutes) you should cut at like 3 colossi and pump immortals like there's no tomorrow while starting up an archives for archons.
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Would it be best to go for both? Like if I have a Stargate and a Robo, pump both VR's and Immortals? Or are VR's actually bad against Ultras for some reason?
Also, his question seems to be aimed towards a late-game 4+ base switch, not the all-in-ish 3-base style.
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Void rays aren't bad against ultras. It's just immortals are better if you were already using a ground based army since you'll have the upgrades for them and they can stand their ground pretty well. Against a ling/ultra composition, you want something that can tank in the ground to protect your collosi, which are essential to deal with the massive amount of lings. If you're in a hurry, as in he's coming to attack and you want as many units as fast as humanly possible, getting void rays when you have an idle stargate is of course fine.
Needless to say, if you're already aiming for an air composition you should just go for the void ray route.
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I have not played SC2 (or almost anything else) for almost 2 years and am trying to get back into it. Former strong diamond-league player from early WoL days.
Anyway, I am terribad now and am trying desperately to get back on my feet. Can someone recommend a "safe" build for PvT against the marine/medivac timing attack? I typically 1gate FE and try to transition into either colo or HT, but I feel like I'm too slow or something. The attack lands before I have enough to soundly defend. I have seen some pro games that look a little dicey at that point in the game too, so maybe it is not just me. Or the pros are being too greedy... I do not know the meta enough to say.
I do not necessarily need detailed build orders... just some advice or a link to another post would work. Thanks!
Edit: If someone knows a timing, that would be enough... like "have 2 colo by XX:XX time" or "2 HTs by XX:XX" time, etc. I can figure out the BO on my own from there.
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(Master player.)
This is a build I picked up from Desrow after some coaching:
9 Pylon
13 Gate
15 Gas
16 Pylon
18 Core
19 Zealot (cancel)
21 Nexus – 3:40
22 MSC - scout with MSC
24 Stalker
24 WG
24 Pylon
26 Gas
27 Forge 4:50
28 Robo – 5:10
29 Gate – 5:25
32 + 1 Amour 5:50
35 3rd Gas 6:10
36 Obs
38 Sentry
42 Obs
43 Twilight Council 6:50
43 4th Gas 6:55
50 Robo Bay 7:30
52 Sentry
54 Blink 8:00
57 4x Gate 8:15
58 +1 Attack (@100% armour)
Aim for Blink, +1/+1, 1 Colossus and 6 gates by 10:00.
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I am a Silver league player, and I was wondering what the best method is to handle a Terran who has walled off his main's ramp. That leaves me in the dark, and I can't tell if he is going 1 base aggression or going to float a Command Center down to his natural.
My original inclination was to try to get a Robo up very early (1 Gate, 1 Core, 1 Robo ) to get an observer in there ASAP. But that leaves me vulnerable to early aggression, because my force-field micro is sub standard.
I have changed my build to getting my 3 Gates up first and then a Robo if I can't tell if it's one base aggression or expansion. I tend to go 1 Gate, 1 Core, 2 more Gates, 1 Robo ). This did work against a Terran who was putting on some aggression. I was just curious what others do in this situation.
Map: Neo Planet S
Replay: http://drop.sc/336169
Thank you.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 22 2013 00:14 mbmonk wrote:I am a Silver league player, and I was wondering what the best method is to handle a Terran who has walled off his main's ramp. That leaves me in the dark, and I can't tell if he is going 1 base aggression or going to float a Command Center down to his natural. My original inclination was to try to get a Robo up very early (1 Gate, 1 Core, 1 Robo ) to get an observer in there ASAP. But that leaves me vulnerable to early aggression, because my force-field micro is sub standard. I have changed my build to getting my 3 Gates up first and then a Robo if I can't tell if it's one base aggression or expansion. I tend to go 1 Gate, 1 Core, 2 more Gates, 1 Robo ). This did work against a Terran who was putting on some aggression. I was just curious what others do in this situation. Map: Neo Planet S Replay: http://drop.sc/336169Thank you.
Honestly, if you're not doing well at holding a few units at the top of your ramp and forcefielding perfectly when your opponent tries to push up the ramp, you need to force yourself to do it and actually improve. It's something you're going to have to do in order to get better. You SHOULD practice a 1-gate expand (1 gate -> zealot/stalker/sentry -> nexus -> robo+2gates).
Or you just can just scout after building your gateway. On 2-player maps, you'll almost always get into your opponent's main before the wall is up.
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On May 22 2013 00:14 mbmonk wrote:I am a Silver league player, and I was wondering what the best method is to handle a Terran who has walled off his main's ramp. That leaves me in the dark, and I can't tell if he is going 1 base aggression or going to float a Command Center down to his natural. My original inclination was to try to get a Robo up very early (1 Gate, 1 Core, 1 Robo ) to get an observer in there ASAP. But that leaves me vulnerable to early aggression, because my force-field micro is sub standard. I have changed my build to getting my 3 Gates up first and then a Robo if I can't tell if it's one base aggression or expansion. I tend to go 1 Gate, 1 Core, 2 more Gates, 1 Robo ). This did work against a Terran who was putting on some aggression. I was just curious what others do in this situation. Map: Neo Planet S Replay: http://drop.sc/336169Thank you.
I find a solid build order much more key in PvT than early scouting. You don't need to see much in order to be safe against most stuff if your timings are good enough.
Start your zealot, but don't rush for it. You want your probe behind the mineal line of your natural when your cybernetics core is about to finish. If there is an scv there to ebay block you, use the zealot to kill it. Otherwise, cancel your zealot and build your nexus asap.
Early aggression shouldn't be a problem. You have photon overcharge available almost as soon as your natural goes up. How fast you have 100 energy on your msc depends on whether you went nexus --> msc or msc --> nexus, but I find it more important nowadays to build my nexus asap to avoid losing my probe to a reaper or getting an ebay block.
His strategy was awful and you had a much harder timing defending because you didn't expand earlier. That's right - if you were next to your nexus at your natural, with 3 stalkers and possible 2 sentries just for safety, you could have easily photon overcharged it and traped some of his units. Then his push is over, he has an extremely late cc, and at a higher level that will spell gg for you opponent.
Your main problem is you don't have a solid build order and you make too many basic mistakes. Let me list some of the things you need to fix:
+ Show Spoiler +(1) Start your pylon at 9.
(2) Scouting can be done with an observer. If it's a 4 player map and you want to check where your opponent spawned so you can send your observer there right away, I'd say scout after your cybernetics core.
(3) Send your probe to your natural slightly before your cybernetics core is finished. If you don't get ebay blocked, cancel your zealot and build your nexus --> msc --> third pylon. Otherwise, destroy the ebay with your zealot and expand asap. You want maximum economy and a good defensive position at your natural with photon overcharge as soon as possible.
(4) After you finish warp gate research, always open your gateways asap.
(5) This is not PvZ. You want force fields to trap the terran at your natural, not buildings.
(6) Do not wander around the map. Place pylons at the edges of the map instead - you want to have pylons all around the map once you saturate your main and natural. 1 observer in front of his natural to see when he moves out. Use 2-3 observers to spot incoming drops at key locations and place 1-2 pylons to cover the areas where you don't have vision. This kind of pylon should be either at the edge of you main, or hidden outside at one of the edges of the map.
Try this build (just chrono probes out until you start your forge upgrades) I stole from MVPTails. You can go either charge first and 1 colossus without range into high templar asap (into colossi with range and blink later), or 3 colossi with range and blink stalkers (into chargelot with high templar). You can also go high templar right away, but I haven't tried it yet. Either way, a bigger tech transition usually requires a third nexus. But if you go 1 colossus without range, you should get your templar archives asap (twilight finishes --> templar archives).
+ Show Spoiler +9 pylon (chrono probe once it's done)
13 gate
13 gas
resume chrono on probes (yes, you delay your second chrono for a faster gas)
16 pylon
gate finishes --> cybernetics core
23 (or is it 22? can't recall... anyway as soon as your cybernectics core finishes) expand --> msc
second gas
pylon + resume probe production
4:40 robo (get an obs to scout, then place it in front of his natural to see when he comes out, and keep one observer in each base for detection until 10 minutes, then use them to spot drops at 9:00+)
5:00 stalker
5:15 (ish) second gateway
6:00 double gas at natural
+2 stalker when wg is done
7:00 - robo bay + 2 sentries
* double forge no later than 8:00
* twilight council timing varies, but it should be at the same time as your double forge or no later than 8:40 (if you go 3 colossi with range, get blink and more stalkers to help protect colossi; if you go 1 colossus without range into high templar asap, get charge first and more zealots)
you can get +1-2 sentries at about 8 minutes or so (I'd get just 1 more to save gas, 4 sentries is unnecessary imo)
* chrono forges like a mad man and get your first colossus out
* temporarily cut probes at about 8:40 to get 4 extra gateways, just to be safe against drop timings
(you should have 3 probes on each gas + about 16 probes on minerals in each base)
* add stalkers and zealots (according to tails 10-16 stalkers is a good amount if you are going colossi)
* third slightly before the 12 minute mark is a good rule of thumb
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I just wanted to thank SC2John and vhapter.
Thank you for looking over the replay and pointing out the basic incorrect actions I was taking, as well the build suggestion. You really went above and beyond to help me. I appreciate that. Thank you.
I will work on the things you suggested, and mess with that build order against the AI.
Thank you again!
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does anyone know the details or vod of hero doing a proxy 1 gate vs terran maybe last week? also, are people having success with gateway pressure pvt? which variations are you trying?
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Anyone else having a lot of trouble with PvT lately? I usually have an above 70% winrate in it but the last few days I have only won a couple of games out of many. What is causing me to lose (HuK just lost to it against Demuslim on his stream right now and I have seen Incontrol losing to it too the last couple days), is Terran going for double or triple drops (usually marauder heavy), boosting in, targeting down the nexus (be it main or third), and then picking up and boosting out. Usually this can be done before you can get there to defend. The trouble is that it always puts you economically behind, even if all probes are saved. The trouble is that unlike with single medivac drops, you need a much more substantial army to deal with double/triple drops since they are so much more powerful, and this puts you in a very awkward situation when it comes to dealing with both the drop and frontal pressure.
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Hey guys PvZ is driving me insane, i tried to play macro but cant seem to weather the pressure, do you guys have a good timing push i can do vs zerg, ive tried the very very old 6-7 gate but it gets raped by swarm hosts, i feel like most timing pushes with zerg now involves robo. thanks for the help in advance and it would be great if you guys can provide a replay.im really stumped in this match-up.
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EPT
