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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On May 22 2013 03:28 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 00:14 mbmonk wrote:I am a Silver league player, and I was wondering what the best method is to handle a Terran who has walled off his main's ramp. That leaves me in the dark, and I can't tell if he is going 1 base aggression or going to float a Command Center down to his natural. My original inclination was to try to get a Robo up very early (1 Gate, 1 Core, 1 Robo ) to get an observer in there ASAP. But that leaves me vulnerable to early aggression, because my force-field micro is sub standard. I have changed my build to getting my 3 Gates up first and then a Robo if I can't tell if it's one base aggression or expansion. I tend to go 1 Gate, 1 Core, 2 more Gates, 1 Robo ). This did work against a Terran who was putting on some aggression. I was just curious what others do in this situation. Map: Neo Planet S Replay: http://drop.sc/336169Thank you. I find a solid build order much more key in PvT than early scouting. You don't need to see much in order to be safe against most stuff if your timings are good enough.
What do you do if you don't scout PvT and they proxy 2 rax? Just lose the game? You don't have to post an indepth response on how to defend it, I'm just asking a simple: Is proxy 2 rax defensible without changing your build? My theory is: no. But I'm not sure.
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http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412284
this build and variants of nani's pvz gate expand into aggression has been doing really well for me. I've decided just to allin until there's a solid way to play pvz macro. it's extremely hard for protoss to have an advantage apart from the midgame imo. check out day9's daily on it too
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On May 22 2013 09:41 SteveNick wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 03:28 vhapter wrote:On May 22 2013 00:14 mbmonk wrote:I am a Silver league player, and I was wondering what the best method is to handle a Terran who has walled off his main's ramp. That leaves me in the dark, and I can't tell if he is going 1 base aggression or going to float a Command Center down to his natural. My original inclination was to try to get a Robo up very early (1 Gate, 1 Core, 1 Robo ) to get an observer in there ASAP. But that leaves me vulnerable to early aggression, because my force-field micro is sub standard. I have changed my build to getting my 3 Gates up first and then a Robo if I can't tell if it's one base aggression or expansion. I tend to go 1 Gate, 1 Core, 2 more Gates, 1 Robo ). This did work against a Terran who was putting on some aggression. I was just curious what others do in this situation. Map: Neo Planet S Replay: http://drop.sc/336169Thank you. I find a solid build order much more key in PvT than early scouting. You don't need to see much in order to be safe against most stuff if your timings are good enough. What do you do if you don't scout PvT and they proxy 2 rax? Just lose the game? You don't have to post an indepth response on how to defend it, I'm just asking a simple: Is proxy 2 rax defensible without changing your build? My theory is: no. But I'm not sure.
Do you mean an 11-11 marine scv all in or just marine marauder? I haven't run into either one of these in hots yet because they are even worse than it was in wol. If the terran attacks your natural instead of your main with an 11-11 all-in, it shouldn't be a problem imo. If he attacks your main, you will have 300-400 minerals (that is to say, if you think you do need to cancel your nexus to pull it off) for extra pylons, gateways, a stalker, whatever you will need to get to hold on until about 5:45. Then you will be able to photon overcharge your main and kill any bunkers. When I first tried this build, I thought an 11-11 could blind counter it, but now I think it's probably manageable. I'd love to try it out, but I'd never change my build. If you want to try it out, I wouldn't mind.
As for marine marauder, I don't see it working against a msc at all. It hits later, you can get immortals, stalkers, photon overcharge... w/e you think is necessary.
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On May 22 2013 06:31 aldochillbro wrote:
does anyone know the details or vod of hero doing a proxy 1 gate vs terran maybe last week? also, are people having success with gateway pressure pvt? which variations are you trying?
Proleague, hero vs flash (EGTL vs KT). Look it up here: http://www.youtube.com/user/ESportsTV/videos
On May 22 2013 07:43 Ben... wrote:
Anyone else having a lot of trouble with PvT lately? I usually have an above 70% winrate in it but the last few days I have only won a couple of games out of many. What is causing me to lose (HuK just lost to it against Demuslim on his stream right now and I have seen Incontrol losing to it too the last couple days), is Terran going for double or triple drops (usually marauder heavy), boosting in, targeting down the nexus (be it main or third), and then picking up and boosting out. Usually this can be done before you can get there to defend. The trouble is that it always puts you economically behind, even if all probes are saved. The trouble is that unlike with single medivac drops, you need a much more substantial army to deal with double/triple drops since they are so much more powerful, and this puts you in a very awkward situation when it comes to dealing with both the drop and frontal pressure.
Leave HT behind + cannons. Make sure you have open gateways. And ofc, if you don't have enough gateways to warp in at 2-3 locations or leave enough units behind, it could turn into a disaster. Alternatively, if you didn't go DTs earlier, you may want to consider adding a dark shrine. DTs could be good for tactical drops and also for defense.
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On May 22 2013 10:36 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 07:43 Ben... wrote:
Anyone else having a lot of trouble with PvT lately? I usually have an above 70% winrate in it but the last few days I have only won a couple of games out of many. What is causing me to lose (HuK just lost to it against Demuslim on his stream right now and I have seen Incontrol losing to it too the last couple days), is Terran going for double or triple drops (usually marauder heavy), boosting in, targeting down the nexus (be it main or third), and then picking up and boosting out. Usually this can be done before you can get there to defend. The trouble is that it always puts you economically behind, even if all probes are saved. The trouble is that unlike with single medivac drops, you need a much more substantial army to deal with double/triple drops since they are so much more powerful, and this puts you in a very awkward situation when it comes to dealing with both the drop and frontal pressure. Leave HT behind + cannons. Make sure you have open gateways. And ofc, if you don't have enough gateways to warp in at 2-3 locations or leave enough units behind, it could turn into a disaster. Alternatively, if you didn't go DTs earlier, you may want to consider adding a dark shrine. DTs could be good for tactical drops and also for defense.
Er, those kind of response are only really viable in late game, and it's not like a DT warp-in can save a nexus in the scenario described. I don't see any pros rushing to DTs to defend drops in mid-game. Even in late game, getting upgrades, storm, decent stalker count and decent colossus count are all higher gas priority than having a DT shrine and money for defensive DT warp-ins. DTs are OK to disincentive small drops (even though there are better responses), but don't do enough against doom drops, which is the trouble here.
If it's a mid-game big drop (11-15min), the only way to defend is to have great vision so you can safely leave like a third or more of your army preemptively in a key location, but that still can be pulled back if they overcommit in the front pressure.
Tough as hell, comes down to Protoss vision + positioning versus Terran multitask.
The standard response is reasonably timed blink and good observer spread. Builds that go for fast HT (rsvp replay pack) are good too, but the key is still vision. No easy way around it, other than making 2-base all-ins. Builds that prioritize faster upgrades than a faster third is the standard PvT metagame for a reason.
Good pros to watch are Rain (proleague) and State (shoutcraft).
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On May 22 2013 00:14 mbmonk wrote:I am a Silver league player, and I was wondering what the best method is to handle a Terran who has walled off his main's ramp. That leaves me in the dark, and I can't tell if he is going 1 base aggression or going to float a Command Center down to his natural. My original inclination was to try to get a Robo up very early (1 Gate, 1 Core, 1 Robo ) to get an observer in there ASAP. But that leaves me vulnerable to early aggression, because my force-field micro is sub standard. I have changed my build to getting my 3 Gates up first and then a Robo if I can't tell if it's one base aggression or expansion. I tend to go 1 Gate, 1 Core, 2 more Gates, 1 Robo ). This did work against a Terran who was putting on some aggression. I was just curious what others do in this situation. Map: Neo Planet S Replay: http://drop.sc/336169Thank you.
I'm a Gold leaguer and my advice might be no better than higher league players here but you can still try:
1. Scouting at 9 probe (after building the pylon) - you can get inside a Terran base unwalled to check if they have gas or not (most of the time I see gas for reaper scout or fast widow mines)
2. Current meta (I think) is go for Gate > Core > Expand > Robo > 2 Gates. As soon as Core is done, build Stalker and MommaCore for defense then build observers after Robo is finished for further scouting. MC should have enough energy for Photon Overcharge.
3. If you see something funky like no barracks and expansion, assume there is a cheese coming so you can adjust your build accordingly.
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On May 22 2013 12:14 zenkicker wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 00:14 mbmonk wrote:I am a Silver league player, and I was wondering what the best method is to handle a Terran who has walled off his main's ramp. That leaves me in the dark, and I can't tell if he is going 1 base aggression or going to float a Command Center down to his natural. My original inclination was to try to get a Robo up very early (1 Gate, 1 Core, 1 Robo ) to get an observer in there ASAP. But that leaves me vulnerable to early aggression, because my force-field micro is sub standard. I have changed my build to getting my 3 Gates up first and then a Robo if I can't tell if it's one base aggression or expansion. I tend to go 1 Gate, 1 Core, 2 more Gates, 1 Robo ). This did work against a Terran who was putting on some aggression. I was just curious what others do in this situation. Map: Neo Planet S Replay: http://drop.sc/336169Thank you. I'm a Gold leaguer and my advice might be no better than higher league players here but you can still try: 1. Scouting at 9 probe (after building the pylon) - you can get inside a Terran base unwalled to check if they have gas or not (most of the time I see gas for reaper scout or fast widow mines) 2. Current meta (I think) is go for Gate > Core > Expand > Robo > 2 Gates. As soon as Core is done, build Stalker and MommaCore for defense then build observers after Robo is finished for further scouting. MC should have enough energy for Photon Overcharge. 3. If you see something funky like no barracks and expansion, assume there is a cheese coming so you can adjust your build accordingly.
Good advice. If you go double gas early, expand at 22 and get a sentry / msc. Use the hallucinated pheonix to scout 
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I would say to always use a hallucinated Oracle nowadays. It can force a reaction where a solo Phoenix most likely will not, further, you can mind game even more if he happens to "kill" the hallucination and decides you're not going to go air at all.
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On May 22 2013 10:50 bertu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 10:36 vhapter wrote:On May 22 2013 07:43 Ben... wrote:
Anyone else having a lot of trouble with PvT lately? I usually have an above 70% winrate in it but the last few days I have only won a couple of games out of many. What is causing me to lose (HuK just lost to it against Demuslim on his stream right now and I have seen Incontrol losing to it too the last couple days), is Terran going for double or triple drops (usually marauder heavy), boosting in, targeting down the nexus (be it main or third), and then picking up and boosting out. Usually this can be done before you can get there to defend. The trouble is that it always puts you economically behind, even if all probes are saved. The trouble is that unlike with single medivac drops, you need a much more substantial army to deal with double/triple drops since they are so much more powerful, and this puts you in a very awkward situation when it comes to dealing with both the drop and frontal pressure. Leave HT behind + cannons. Make sure you have open gateways. And ofc, if you don't have enough gateways to warp in at 2-3 locations or leave enough units behind, it could turn into a disaster. Alternatively, if you didn't go DTs earlier, you may want to consider adding a dark shrine. DTs could be good for tactical drops and also for defense. Er, those kind of response are only really viable in late game, and it's not like a DT warp-in can save a nexus in the scenario described. I don't see any pros rushing to DTs to defend drops in mid-game. Even in late game, getting upgrades, storm, decent stalker count and decent colossus count are all higher gas priority than having a DT shrine and money for defensive DT warp-ins. DTs are OK to disincentive small drops (even though there are better responses), but don't do enough against doom drops, which is the trouble here. If it's a mid-game big drop (11-15min), the only way to defend is to have great vision so you can safely leave like a third or more of your army preemptively in a key location, but that still can be pulled back if they overcommit in the front pressure. Tough as hell, comes down to Protoss vision + positioning versus Terran multitask. The standard response is reasonably timed blink and good observer spread. Builds that go for fast HT (rsvp replay pack) are good too, but the key is still vision. No easy way around it, other than making 2-base all-ins. Builds that prioritize faster upgrades than a faster third is the standard PvT metagame for a reason. Good pros to watch are Rain (proleague) and State (shoutcraft).
I was talking about small drops. HT + cannons and open gateways is a pretty solid response at high level and that's not something new, but if he needs something else to back himself up and gets to that stage of the game, he could try using dts defensively. I don't think drops are hard to deal with before you take your third and I do favor map vision over other approaches. It's not something you go for, it's something you simply do when you have a chance.
As for nexus sniping, that's a real pain. You have to resort to pylons and observers to get massive vision. It's almost like map hack with in-game cost. ^^
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On May 22 2013 10:15 vhapter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 09:41 SteveNick wrote:On May 22 2013 03:28 vhapter wrote:On May 22 2013 00:14 mbmonk wrote:I am a Silver league player, and I was wondering what the best method is to handle a Terran who has walled off his main's ramp. That leaves me in the dark, and I can't tell if he is going 1 base aggression or going to float a Command Center down to his natural. My original inclination was to try to get a Robo up very early (1 Gate, 1 Core, 1 Robo ) to get an observer in there ASAP. But that leaves me vulnerable to early aggression, because my force-field micro is sub standard. I have changed my build to getting my 3 Gates up first and then a Robo if I can't tell if it's one base aggression or expansion. I tend to go 1 Gate, 1 Core, 2 more Gates, 1 Robo ). This did work against a Terran who was putting on some aggression. I was just curious what others do in this situation. Map: Neo Planet S Replay: http://drop.sc/336169Thank you. I find a solid build order much more key in PvT than early scouting. You don't need to see much in order to be safe against most stuff if your timings are good enough. What do you do if you don't scout PvT and they proxy 2 rax? Just lose the game? You don't have to post an indepth response on how to defend it, I'm just asking a simple: Is proxy 2 rax defensible without changing your build? My theory is: no. But I'm not sure. Do you mean an 11-11 marine scv all in or just marine marauder? I haven't run into either one of these in hots yet because they are even worse than it was in wol. If the terran attacks your natural instead of your main with an 11-11 all-in, it shouldn't be a problem imo. If he attacks your main, you will have 300-400 minerals (that is to say, if you think you do need to cancel your nexus to pull it off) for extra pylons, gateways, a stalker, whatever you will need to get to hold on until about 5:45. Then you will be able to photon overcharge your main and kill any bunkers. When I first tried this build, I thought an 11-11 could blind counter it, but now I think it's probably manageable. I'd love to try it out, but I'd never change my build. If you want to try it out, I wouldn't mind. As for marine marauder, I don't see it working against a msc at all. It hits later, you can get immortals, stalkers, photon overcharge... w/e you think is necessary.
I was referring to an 11/11 marine/scv all-in. Any later rushes, especially rushes involving marauder seem to have died out because of the MSC. Sometimes I still die to the 11/11 marine/scv all in even when I scout it though, so I'm doubtful of how well you can defend without changinig your build order until they actually show the marines. Whether or not it's worth it to change your build and start scouting just because it dies to 11/11 scv all in is debatable. I think a good deal of people do scout in PvT and you should generally hold an 11/11 proxy if you scout it, so that's a heavy deterrent to people doing it. If you're not playing in any tournaments or against people that know you never scout, then it's probably okay just for ladder play. You'd probably lose a game here and there though unless you can determine that your build actually does just blindly beat it.
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On May 22 2013 13:54 SteveNick wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 10:15 vhapter wrote:On May 22 2013 09:41 SteveNick wrote:On May 22 2013 03:28 vhapter wrote:On May 22 2013 00:14 mbmonk wrote:I am a Silver league player, and I was wondering what the best method is to handle a Terran who has walled off his main's ramp. That leaves me in the dark, and I can't tell if he is going 1 base aggression or going to float a Command Center down to his natural. My original inclination was to try to get a Robo up very early (1 Gate, 1 Core, 1 Robo ) to get an observer in there ASAP. But that leaves me vulnerable to early aggression, because my force-field micro is sub standard. I have changed my build to getting my 3 Gates up first and then a Robo if I can't tell if it's one base aggression or expansion. I tend to go 1 Gate, 1 Core, 2 more Gates, 1 Robo ). This did work against a Terran who was putting on some aggression. I was just curious what others do in this situation. Map: Neo Planet S Replay: http://drop.sc/336169Thank you. I find a solid build order much more key in PvT than early scouting. You don't need to see much in order to be safe against most stuff if your timings are good enough. What do you do if you don't scout PvT and they proxy 2 rax? Just lose the game? You don't have to post an indepth response on how to defend it, I'm just asking a simple: Is proxy 2 rax defensible without changing your build? My theory is: no. But I'm not sure. Do you mean an 11-11 marine scv all in or just marine marauder? I haven't run into either one of these in hots yet because they are even worse than it was in wol. If the terran attacks your natural instead of your main with an 11-11 all-in, it shouldn't be a problem imo. If he attacks your main, you will have 300-400 minerals (that is to say, if you think you do need to cancel your nexus to pull it off) for extra pylons, gateways, a stalker, whatever you will need to get to hold on until about 5:45. Then you will be able to photon overcharge your main and kill any bunkers. When I first tried this build, I thought an 11-11 could blind counter it, but now I think it's probably manageable. I'd love to try it out, but I'd never change my build. If you want to try it out, I wouldn't mind. As for marine marauder, I don't see it working against a msc at all. It hits later, you can get immortals, stalkers, photon overcharge... w/e you think is necessary. I was referring to an 11/11 marine/scv all-in. Any later rushes, especially rushes involving marauder seem to have died out because of the MSC. Sometimes I still die to the 11/11 marine/scv all in even when I scout it though, so I'm doubtful of how well you can defend without changinig your build order until they actually show the marines. Whether or not it's worth it to change your build and start scouting just because it dies to 11/11 scv all in is debatable. I think a good deal of people do scout in PvT and you should generally hold an 11/11 proxy if you scout it, so that's a heavy deterrent to people doing it. If you're not playing in any tournaments or against people that know you never scout, then it's probably okay just for ladder play. You'd probably lose a game here and there though unless you can determine that your build actually does just blindly beat it.
If you go something like zealot stalker + msc, scout it, and still lose, don't you think your micro may be the issue at hand? I don't see how an 11-11 could even work nowadays, it's a push with a small marine count and I feel like a msc can definitely do more than a zealot. So if it arrives early, you don't cancel the zealot and rape the push. If it arrives a bit later, chrono a stalker out asap. If you want to play super safe, you can still go stalker/sentry a delay your robo for a little bit (requires double gas with 2 probes on each geyser). You could also send a probe to your natural's ramp to spot any 11-11 coming for a few seconds after building the nexus and place your second pylon next to your main's ramp, so if you see units coming you can react by blocking your ramp with gateways, or pylons, I don't know.
You see, if you want to be as safe as possible against an 11-11, you don't need to scout super early. All you need to do is account for the timing and change the order of a thing or two in your build. When you watch Rain, you'll see his gateways are built 30-40ish seconds later than in the build I mentioned. That's because he gets more units earlier, sometimes a zealot, stalker, sentry, and msc. In other words, getting units earlier delays your gateways or something else. It's a trade-off. If you think it's worth it, go for it. Just don't overbuild stuff or delay your robo for too long, you could be droped as early as 6:10 if your opponent goes gas first. Hell, you could have widow mines at your natural at about 5:20 if there's a proxy factory out there - and even the build I posted would fail to get an observer out in time, let alone a later robo -, but you don't need to scout the proxy to be safe - just build the robo as early as possible instead.
Often times, scouting won't tell you much. Players don't even know when a barracks finishes when terran goes gas first or how it affects his drop timings. So many players are obsessed with scouting the terran player, but this is not wings of liberty! In my opinion, your PvT build should be solid enough to the extent that you won't have to change it even with perfect scouting information. That will give you 100% confidence, which is way better than second guessing your build order because you don't have enough information to determine what build you're facing. I find perfect information mostly useful in case you want to cut corners, but not scouting is already a way to cut corners, and in the end you can spend those extra minerals to actually be safer. Good timings >>>>> early scouting. Seriously.
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While we are on the topic of vision, where do you guys like to put your observers in PvT? I usually make 2 obs and send one to the terrans front (scout with hallu phx since its faster) and one in my front. I know its also helpful to put one on each corner of your base to look for drops. I feel like in PvT you need like 4-5 obs in total just to make sure you aren't caught unaware. Or maybe I should be using pylons to spot more?
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Hi there. Used to main zerg but been thinking of rolling random for hots. Problem is i haven't played multiplayer in a long time, so i'm unfamiliar with the new build orders. PvZ i think i've decided on a build order to begin practicing (zealot-archon :3 ), but for PvT i'm not sure on a build order.
I've decided i want to try some oracle play, as I really want to toy around with envision. Problem is can't seem to find any build orders for quick oracle play.
Anyone have a BO or two with oracles.
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On May 22 2013 17:12 TarLaPaN wrote:
While we are on the topic of vision, where do you guys like to put your observers in PvT? I usually make 2 obs and send one to the terrans front (scout with hallu phx since its faster) and one in my front. I know its also helpful to put one on each corner of your base to look for drops. I feel like in PvT you need like 4-5 obs in total just to make sure you aren't caught unaware. Or maybe I should be using pylons to spot more?
I tend to have 4 observers. Here's how I use them:
First observer goes to the enemy base. You want to see the Starport timing, then the third timing. (Assuming a standard early-expanding Terran.)
Second observer goes to enemy front.
Third observer goes to my army, against Widow Mines and as a backup observer.
Fourth observer goes to the most likely drop path vs. the main.
When the Terran moves out, I shift my observers.
The observer at his front goes to the likely drop path location.
The observer scouting for drops goes to my front.
With this, you can scout everything if he doesn't snipe your observer. Even if he does, you have another observer about 1-2 screens away, with your army. You should only need 1 observer to scout for drops when you're on 2 bases. Good splitting and seeing your opponent's army size can probably eliminate the need for that one too, but I like to be safe. Making more observers on three bases wouldn't be a terrible idea though, when it's harder to keep track of everywhere and you can't use units to defend everything at once. I don't think it's standard, but if you're not going for a lot of Colossi and drops are hurting you, why not?
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On May 22 2013 17:12 TarLaPaN wrote:
While we are on the topic of vision, where do you guys like to put your observers in PvT? I usually make 2 obs and send one to the terrans front (scout with hallu phx since its faster) and one in my front. I know its also helpful to put one on each corner of your base to look for drops. I feel like in PvT you need like 4-5 obs in total just to make sure you aren't caught unaware. Or maybe I should be using pylons to spot more?
This is mostly map dependent. Something nice to do is to have one observer or pylon to make sure no drops sneak into your main by the very edge of the map. Often times, a pylon can cover this location safely, but keep it somewhere unlikely to be spotted. I like the idea of placing this pylon diagonally, so my observer is closer to my main while the pylon is farther away from it - this way, it is less likely be spotted. Having one observer in front of your natural is very helpful too. Bring your scout observer back to "fill" any important gap where you need vision. Since your colossus + at least a decent chunk of your army will be at your natural, it is less important to cover edge of the map that leads to the back of your natural at 10:00 (but you can place a pylon at the edge of your third just in case, if you want some vision of this area as well). Once you see his army, you will know whether you need to keep most of your units at your natural, or if you need to warp in at your main or split your army. Photon overcharge can always help defend the weaker side if need be. I'd go for 3 well-placed observers + 1-2 proxy pylons outside your main near the edges of the map (be careful not to get supply blocked if they kill it!). You could send a probe to build proxy pylons around the map at about 9:00 or something, after you put up your gateways. You want to take a third slightly before 12:00 - at this point, you can reposition your observers and have a cannon (or two, but avoid overbuilding unnecessary stuff) per mineral line to be safe.
By the way, sometimes you don't even need pylons to spot drops. Spend some time in a custom game figuring out observer + pylon placement in order to maximize your vision of key areas. Improvising this isn't too hard, but planning this kind of thing ahead is definitely the better call. Good luck!
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On May 22 2013 17:54 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 10:50 bertu wrote:On May 22 2013 10:36 vhapter wrote:On May 22 2013 07:43 Ben... wrote:
Anyone else having a lot of trouble with PvT lately? I usually have an above 70% winrate in it but the last few days I have only won a couple of games out of many. What is causing me to lose (HuK just lost to it against Demuslim on his stream right now and I have seen Incontrol losing to it too the last couple days), is Terran going for double or triple drops (usually marauder heavy), boosting in, targeting down the nexus (be it main or third), and then picking up and boosting out. Usually this can be done before you can get there to defend. The trouble is that it always puts you economically behind, even if all probes are saved. The trouble is that unlike with single medivac drops, you need a much more substantial army to deal with double/triple drops since they are so much more powerful, and this puts you in a very awkward situation when it comes to dealing with both the drop and frontal pressure. Leave HT behind + cannons. Make sure you have open gateways. And ofc, if you don't have enough gateways to warp in at 2-3 locations or leave enough units behind, it could turn into a disaster. Alternatively, if you didn't go DTs earlier, you may want to consider adding a dark shrine. DTs could be good for tactical drops and also for defense. Er, those kind of response are only really viable in late game, and it's not like a DT warp-in can save a nexus in the scenario described. I don't see any pros rushing to DTs to defend drops in mid-game. Even in late game, getting upgrades, storm, decent stalker count and decent colossus count are all higher gas priority than having a DT shrine and money for defensive DT warp-ins. DTs are OK to disincentive small drops (even though there are better responses), but don't do enough against doom drops, which is the trouble here. If it's a mid-game big drop (11-15min), the only way to defend is to have great vision so you can safely leave like a third or more of your army preemptively in a key location, but that still can be pulled back if they overcommit in the front pressure. Tough as hell, comes down to Protoss vision + positioning versus Terran multitask. The standard response is reasonably timed blink and good observer spread. Builds that go for fast HT (rsvp replay pack) are good too, but the key is still vision. No easy way around it, other than making 2-base all-ins. Builds that prioritize faster upgrades than a faster third is the standard PvT metagame for a reason. Good pros to watch are Rain (proleague) and State (shoutcraft). I do better against drops when I play a double Forge build. The Robotics doesn't need to make Immortals for it to be safe anymore (Nexus Cannon), and this means that you can continuously make Observers up until you have 5, 6 or even more. You'll basically have a ring of Observers everywhere around your base. You'll never miss a drop and so should never die to them. Now if only I could beat this fucking 2 base SCV pull when I go double Forge into Colossi...
Maybe try 1 colossus without range into high templar. I only know the 3 base scv pull against colossi builds, they all-in with vikings before you get storm. But if you don't go 3 colossi with range, you could easily get storm in time.
On a side note, 6 observers is a whole lot of gas. You can't do that without delaying colossi production. Maybe you can't hold off scv pulls because you're spending too much gas on map vision earlier and that delays your key units?
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On May 22 2013 18:08 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2013 18:01 vhapter wrote:On May 22 2013 17:54 Sated wrote:On May 22 2013 10:50 bertu wrote:On May 22 2013 10:36 vhapter wrote:On May 22 2013 07:43 Ben... wrote:
Anyone else having a lot of trouble with PvT lately? I usually have an above 70% winrate in it but the last few days I have only won a couple of games out of many. What is causing me to lose (HuK just lost to it against Demuslim on his stream right now and I have seen Incontrol losing to it too the last couple days), is Terran going for double or triple drops (usually marauder heavy), boosting in, targeting down the nexus (be it main or third), and then picking up and boosting out. Usually this can be done before you can get there to defend. The trouble is that it always puts you economically behind, even if all probes are saved. The trouble is that unlike with single medivac drops, you need a much more substantial army to deal with double/triple drops since they are so much more powerful, and this puts you in a very awkward situation when it comes to dealing with both the drop and frontal pressure. Leave HT behind + cannons. Make sure you have open gateways. And ofc, if you don't have enough gateways to warp in at 2-3 locations or leave enough units behind, it could turn into a disaster. Alternatively, if you didn't go DTs earlier, you may want to consider adding a dark shrine. DTs could be good for tactical drops and also for defense. Er, those kind of response are only really viable in late game, and it's not like a DT warp-in can save a nexus in the scenario described. I don't see any pros rushing to DTs to defend drops in mid-game. Even in late game, getting upgrades, storm, decent stalker count and decent colossus count are all higher gas priority than having a DT shrine and money for defensive DT warp-ins. DTs are OK to disincentive small drops (even though there are better responses), but don't do enough against doom drops, which is the trouble here. If it's a mid-game big drop (11-15min), the only way to defend is to have great vision so you can safely leave like a third or more of your army preemptively in a key location, but that still can be pulled back if they overcommit in the front pressure. Tough as hell, comes down to Protoss vision + positioning versus Terran multitask. The standard response is reasonably timed blink and good observer spread. Builds that go for fast HT (rsvp replay pack) are good too, but the key is still vision. No easy way around it, other than making 2-base all-ins. Builds that prioritize faster upgrades than a faster third is the standard PvT metagame for a reason. Good pros to watch are Rain (proleague) and State (shoutcraft). I do better against drops when I play a double Forge build. The Robotics doesn't need to make Immortals for it to be safe anymore (Nexus Cannon), and this means that you can continuously make Observers up until you have 5, 6 or even more. You'll basically have a ring of Observers everywhere around your base. You'll never miss a drop and so should never die to them. Now if only I could beat this fucking 2 base SCV pull when I go double Forge into Colossi... Maybe try 1 colossus without range into high templar. I only know the 3 base scv pull against colossi builds, they all-in with vikings before you get storm. But if you don't go 3 colossi with range, you could easily get storm in time. On a side note, 6 observers is a whole lot of gas. You can't do that without delaying colossi production. Maybe you can't hold off scv pulls because you're spending too much gas on map vision earlier and that delays your key units? Gas isn't the problem, it's just a very strong all-in and I don't quite have the proper control to deal with it. At least I think that control is my problem. To be honest, I usually go Chargelot/Archon instead of Colossi when I open double Forge, it'd just be nice to have some variety EDIT: I also don't see the point of going 1 Colossus into Storm if I am going double Forge. Storm doesn't benefit from upgrades. If I was going to do that then I'd only get a single Forge.
That makes no sense to me. In the late game, you will end up using both colossi and storm, and a templar archives allows you to get archons too. It's not like you need a tech unit that benefits from upgrades either anyway. I remember Parting went super early double forge recently against someone on Star Station (Flash?), and he pushed with a very early 2-2 zealot archon HT timing. Why not take an upgrade advantage in PvT? Regardless of your tech route, double forge is so safe nowadays I see no reason not to go for it. It's not like you can fight with pure HT anyway. But let's not discuss this any further, I don't think we'll get anywhere.
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On May 22 2013 17:21 Undercroft wrote:
Hi there. Used to main zerg but been thinking of rolling random for hots. Problem is i haven't played multiplayer in a long time, so i'm unfamiliar with the new build orders. PvZ i think i've decided on a build order to begin practicing (zealot-archon :3 ), but for PvT i'm not sure on a build order.
I've decided i want to try some oracle play, as I really want to toy around with envision. Problem is can't seem to find any build orders for quick oracle play.
Anyone have a BO or two with oracles.
Try this if you want an all-in http://www.gosubuilds.com/hots-protoss/hots-pvt/pvt-3-gate-proxy-oracle-all-in/
Or you could try the macro build here or the all-in here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403831
And seriously you can look for builds yourself. First 30 pages of this thread are full of builds people liked, or you could watch streams. It's a bit dicky asking for builds here.
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EPT
