EPTWhen are you supposed to cut probe production in PvP? I noticed many protosses I face go way above 16 probes on minerals before even expanding. Is that normal? Isn't expanding before going over 16 probes on minerals or unit production a priority?
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 102
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
When are you supposed to cut probe production in PvP? I noticed many protosses I face go way above 16 probes on minerals before even expanding. Is that normal? Isn't expanding before going over 16 probes on minerals or unit production a priority? | ||
Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
On May 24 2013 11:30 Nuclease wrote: Teoita, Sated, etc. This is a direct question to you. What is YOUR favorite PvP build and why? I'm not just asking for the BO, but also what you think you get out of the build to make it advantageous. Thanks all :D I like to go 15/15 gas, 3 stalker with my tech before stalkers 2 and 3, and from there i DT expand. I have the map control and unit count to hold off any gateway timings (my dt's come up super fast so all i need to do is buy time), enough stalkers to hold off oracle stuff, some map control to get proxy pylons down, and a reasonably fast nexus. I like to also play safe and get a robo with my Nexus to beat unsafe DT builds. All in all it's a good all-around build, only beaten my a greedy 1gate FE into rob with obs before immortal (which he's quite unlikely to do in a Bo1 on ladder if he sees me poking around with stalkers). The other build i like to do is the same opening but with stargate instead of twilight, playing a standard WoL phoenix early game. I haven't done much gateway aggression into expo, fast expo or blink/msc so i'm not very comfortable with those styles yet. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Blaeu
United States10 Posts
I want to gate expand into Stargate and go Voidrays into heavy airtoss play. I'm using Alicia's games from WCS AM vs. NesTea as an example. For some reason NesTea responded with Spire play both games, going Corruptor/Muta. So, I guess I know how to respond to that. My main issue is if Zerg responds in a different manor, such as Hydra and/or Infestors. I assume HTs with Feedback and Storm would be good against that, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm not sure how to respond when Zerg opens Roach/Hydra and then goes heavy Hydra because of the amount of Void Rays. I've read that you can use Cannons to help defend your third, but that doesn't help me push out and apply pressure. Since Alicia never built a Robo, I'm at a loss. Is it better to put down a Robo and go Colossus? Or, should I play defensively for a while and tech to Storm? Edit: After trying a few of these things out, I really do not want to go Colossus if I can help it. I asked Grubby while he was streaming, and he said Colossus was the better choice. However, I would have to add a Robo, Bay, and then pay for the Colossus and range all while having no ground upgrades. It seems that Colossus would be great for a "standard" game, but if I want to go pure (heavy) air, they just cost too much. I'm thinking Storm would be the preferred AoE to help deal with the Hydras, but I die before I can get there. Is it possible to survive a 13-15 minute Roach/Hydra push (with heavy Hydra) when you have just Void rays and gateway units? The answer is probably situational, if so, tell me the situation I need to create for myself. I feel good playing this style, and this seems like the last hurdle I need to learn to overcome before I can start to play it out to a macro game. | ||
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bertu
Brazil871 Posts
So, my question is: what is the best way to actually punish this transition? Say it's 11:00-13:00, you are on 2-bases going double robo colossi with a third on the way, and your previous scouting revealed the opponent was doing the same, but than you scout his double stargate with no voidrays yet, or just a few. What is the optimal response? What I've tried so far is: immediately start blink, templar archives, add gates, cut probes and robo production, warp in pure archons and zealots. Push out when +2 finishes and blink is close, reinforcing with blink stalkers. with no charge. But I am falling short. Is it my micro that sucks? Or should I keep it cool and keep adding lots of HT with storm? Go for phoenix? I've been going zealot/archon in the push (and just reinforcing with warp-in stalkers after the big battle) because I feel if just go with a couple immortals, 4 or so colossus and all remaining gas in stalkers, it all woud die to immortals+VR, but I could be wrong. Thanks in advance. | ||
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Poo
Canada536 Posts
On May 25 2013 04:02 Blaeu wrote: I seem to have a very "basic" question, but I'm having a hard time applying it. I want to gate expand into Stargate and go Voidrays into heavy airtoss play. I'm using Alicia's games from WCS AM vs. NesTea as an example. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UDekGK8aVXg For some reason NesTea responded with Spire play both games, going Corruptor/Muta. So, I guess I know how to respond to that. My main issue is if Zerg responds in a different manor, such as Hydra and/or Infestors. I assume HTs with Feedback and Storm would be good against that, but I'm not sure. Anyway, I'm not sure how to respond when Zerg opens Roach/Hydra and then goes heavy Hydra because of the amount of Void Rays. I've read that you can use Cannons to help defend your third, but that doesn't help me push out and apply pressure. Since Alicia never built a Robo, I'm at a loss. Is it better to put down a Robo and go Colossus? Or, should I play defensively for a while and tech to Storm? vs roach/Hydra try watching CreatorPrime vs Roro ( I believe) on Daybreak from the GSL in April. Using properly positioned force fields and cannons can help defend versus these timings. Following up with a twilight council and HT is pretty essential if you scout and determine a viper timing is on-way with this roach/hydra ball. Otherwise, I don't believe that HT are absolutely necessary. With good micro, your voidrays should be able to win fights pretty convincingly. Also, alicias build is a mass air build - the only transition to colossus that would be planned is in the scenario you're playing versus swarmhost. Nestea played corruptor/muta in the game you linked - so no robo was made. Lastly, when you play versus roach/hydra or just hydra builds in general, whether or not you're actually aggressive with your VRs is heavily dependent on the map. More airspace to roam and run from hydra = less chance VRs are going to die; so you can be more aggressive. | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
 Like in WoL I struggle a lot with my PvP. I'm somehow starting to like to do 3 stalker rushes into 3 gate pressure & robo after seeing that on Welmu's stream multiple times. And damn, that guy is awesome in PvP! I mean, against DTs you are pretty safe and against greedy play you can do a lot of damage if the timing is correct. But my question: If you don't manage to do major damage, when do you usually throw your own expansion? Are you far behind if you don't do much damage with your 3 gate pressure? @Blaeu: To be honest, this strategy only works insanely good on Whirlwind. Hydra timings are far too good against heavy voidray play, especially on maps like Bel'Shir and Daybreak. But if you manage to get early colossi with your void rays (I don't have a build order for that style, sorry) - you can hold these hydra pushes for sure. By the way, I also recommend Bisu vs rOrO on Whirlwind for this style: | ||
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Prakas
United States30 Posts
I'm VERY use to having my main army in control group 1, and being able to quickly forcefield/guardian shield when needed. However, since the MSC was introduced, I have to tab then f for forcefield causing a small delay and at times, confusion depending on the situation. It also gets complicated when I add a few HTs to the mix. I'm torn between 2 choices, keeping MSC in control group 1 with my main army, or keep it in control group 5 or 6 and control it separately. So far, I'm finding it to be more comfortable keeping my old setup and having MSC in a control group by itself. If you have a different setup that works or any input, it'd be greatly appreciated | ||
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Teoita
Italy12248 Posts
I use 1/2 for my main army, ` for prisms and eventual flanks, 4 for nexi, 5 for robo, 6 for stargate, w for warpgates. | ||
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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CaM27
Belgium392 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Sox03
Germany55 Posts
I've only met few people with a similar set up but i'm just used to it (to note i send my templars back when i move my main army when i engage i guess its the same as moving both completely seperate). | ||
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Prakas
United States30 Posts
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aznheat80
United States186 Posts
On May 25 2013 22:34 CaM27 wrote: Can anyone link me to the 3gates builds that rushes to 5stalkersmsc poke at opponent's base? =( User was warned for this post The build I use for this rush is as follows: 9 pylon 13 gate 15/15 assimilators ( 2 probes on each gas geyser) 16 pylon 17 cyber core 19 gate stalker 23 pylon Cut probes at 24/26, make two additional stalkers 30 Msc --> send to opponent base then stalker,stalker to get to 34/34 supply This leads to 8 stalkers at around 6:30(estimate) at the opponents base. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On May 25 2013 21:30 Teoita wrote: I keep it on 3 and moved my observer scout to y. I use 1/2 for my main army, ` for prisms and eventual flanks, 4 for nexi, 5 for robo, 6 for stargate, w for warpgates. Q is a good control group key too if you're looking to stay LHO(which you probably should). | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On May 08 2013 03:10 vhapter wrote: *Idea for PvT and PvZ ctrl groups* I guess this isn't as efficient as having your HT follow different colossi when it comes to avoiding emps, but what I do is all gateway units in group 1, colossi in group 2, templar + msc in group 3. This way I can go 1a 2a 3 right click behind my army. My msc is safe and my templar won't suicide though they do form a cluster if I don't spread them afterwards. When the terran starts kiting, my colossi can easily move forward to get a few hits on bio units while I retreat temporarily with my gateway units, which makes it very tempting for him to come back and then I can hit them with everything, including storms. Since sentries are in 1 and there is no msc or templar in this group, I can easily press g for guardian shield. And against vikings, I have my stalkers in Q too (yay custom hotkeys) in order to blink them all swiftly. Not only that, I also use Alt and Caps Lock as unit hokteys as well... in PvZ, I've recently started using Caps Lock for phoenixes and Alt for my warp prism, though I used to hotkey pylons and my warp prism in caps lock. But I guess having phoenixes in a special hotkey against mutas is a must, because if they strike and your groups are messed up, you're probably dead. ^ I do this with my MSC and hotkeys in general. | ||
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Blaeu
United States10 Posts
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Kovaz
Canada233 Posts
I have a similar issue in PvP. I'm not really sure what gas timings should be leading into which builds, so I've had a lot of games where I just die to a build I assumed wouldn't happen. Mostly DTs. So I guess the overall question is what am I looking for when I scout in those matchups, and what can I read based on the timing of the third in PvZ, the first few units produced in PvP, and gas timings in both? | ||
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S7EFEN
86 Posts
Also, kinda odd question - why are observers built out of the robotics? Toss is the only race where they need a certain tech path to get detection. | ||
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dasfewfawdx
17 Posts
What's the "proper" way to defend against a proxy one gate given: 1) You don't scout it before his first zealot comes into your base 2) You do scout it with a gateway scout I've tend to switch my opening to variations off a proxy one gate (ie 1 gate FE, three gate pressure, etc) and I've seen a variety of responses, the majority of which end in a four gate robo of some sort (mid masters). Despite their initial reaction, whether it be chronoing off one gateway or throwing down fast two gateway while cutting probes, none of the reactions seem particularly effective, as I've usually come out ahead in both probes (I chrono three+ times before cyber), tech (faster WG), and even faster expansions. Any thoughts on how to optimally counter a proxy one gate? | ||
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